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Thread: Are German French?

  1. #1 Are German French? 
    Forum Professor mmatt9876's Avatar
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    In the years 800 and 900 AD German land was France. So are modern Germans still French today?


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    During that period, modern France and Germany (and a lot of nearby territory) were ruled by the Franks. The Franks were a German tribe which came to dominate these areas. The inhabitants of Germany were various German tribes. France (Gaul) had been part of the Roman Empire, so its inhabitants were mostly Romanized Gauls. That is the main reason why Germans speak German (a language which evolved from the Germanic languages spoken then), while the French speak French (which evolved from Latin).

    Net result: France got its name from the Franks, while in Germany the name shows up in Franconia (a region in western Germany).


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    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
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    As I've always understood, the Germans are of Nordic Ancestry. Hence idling the Aryan, and the relatively good relations between the Nordics during WWII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    As I've always understood, the Germans are of Nordic Ancestry.
    I thought the various Germanic tribes came from further east; perhaps displaced by other migratory activities? Ultimately driven by the expansion of the Mongol empire? (But I may have got that completely wrong.)

    Hence idling the Aryan,
    "idling" ?

    The Aryans, of course, were Persian.
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    In the years 800 and 900 AD German land was France.
    What you're overlooking here is the fact that the modern concept of a "country" was pretty well unknown to anyone 800 or 900 years ago. There were lots and lots of principalities and kingdoms and feudal lords, but these are very grand descriptions of what were really local warlords by our modern interpretation.

    The biggest and baddest generally got themselves additional power by their association with the Holy Roman Empire. But this was at merely one level of power. The 'locals' very often shifted allegiances depending on what personal advantages they could gain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    As I've always understood, the Germans are of Nordic Ancestry.
    I thought the various Germanic tribes came from further east; perhaps displaced by other migratory activities? Ultimately driven by the expansion of the Mongol empire? (But I may have got that completely wrong.)

    Hence idling the Aryan,
    "idling" ?

    The Aryans, of course, were Persian.
    I meant as in idolize.

    You're probably right about how the expansion of the Germanic tribes went. I was commenting on whether or not they were French. As it turns out "Nordic", upon further research, is a synonym for Germanic when used to describe "Nordic People". Nazis believed the Nordic Peoples, more specifically the 'Nordic race' were part of a larger 'Aryan' race.

    Nordic race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    "German" and "French" are labels, with some cultural relevance but imo relatively pointless otherwise. Each nation state is an arbitrary region in space (shifting as you go back in time) in an arbitrary span of time, containing a salad bowl of people from mixed origins most of which have relatives on the other side of the artificial delimited border of the day. The label is better suited to define a Culture and language, but even then, if you take France you have in fact a bunch of cultural variations from region to region and not to long ago even had different non-french languages and alternate french dialects. On top of that, a given culture is usually a salad bowl itself of cultural elements from various origins (arab numerals, roman architechture itself influenced by greek, etc, etc).
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    I thought the various Germanic tribes came from further east; perhaps displaced by other migratory activities? Ultimately driven by the expansion of the Mongol empire? (But I may have got that completely wrong.)
    The Germans inhabited much of Europe north of the Roman empire (east of the Rhine) long before there was pressure from Asian peoples. The Huns were essentially the first wave. Later came Avars and Magyars. The Mongolians were many centuries later.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Ah, I see. Thank you.
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    The Aryans, of course, were Persian.
    From what I've just studied in my Geography course, they spread to several regions, and specifically played a large role in ancient Indian civilization and the development of the Hindu religion. I'm not sure about Persians though.

    Then again, "Aryan" is​ a very ambiguous term.
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  12. #11  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brody View Post
    I'm not sure about Persians though.
    Where do you think the word "Iran" comes from
    brody likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by brody View Post
    I'm not sure about Persians though.
    Where do you think the word "Iran" comes from
    LoL. I know. Just that I'm not sure about the geographic distribution between Aryans into that region.
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  14. #13  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Oh, I'm sure it is very complicated. You are right that migrations into northern India were important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    As I've always understood, the Germans are of Nordic Ancestry.
    I thought the various Germanic tribes came from further east; perhaps displaced by other migratory activities? Ultimately driven by the expansion of the Mongol empire? (But I may have got that completely wrong.)

    Hence idling the Aryan,
    "idling" ?

    The Aryans, of course, were Persian.
    I believe you are correct for the most part... Modern nordic peoples are from Asia and their ancestors moved west in waves (mongol empire most recent). The Norse peoples should not be confused with the Basque peoples though (Ireland, England, Spain, Southern France, Etc..).

    The Aryan peoples (At least one of their tribes) are Persian however, Aryan lands, kingdoms and nations were not just in Persia and many of them dated back well before the Aryans of Persia.

    The German people are decedents of Aryan peoples.
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  16. #15  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    The Norse peoples should not be confused with the Basque peoples though (Ireland, England, Spain, Southern France, Etc..).
    I am a little confused by this. Are you saying Basques were in Ireland and England? I was not aware of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Thanks for the clarifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    The Norse peoples should not be confused with the Basque peoples though (Ireland, England, Spain, Southern France, Etc..).
    I am a little confused by this. Are you saying Basques were in Ireland and England? I was not aware of that.
    Yes.. In fact they still are. Ireland and England (For the most part) are genetically (R1B) Basque people/decedents/brothers. I know many refer to the English (more so) as Anglo-Saxon (I believe all of us were taught that) but, they are not.
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  18. #17  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Thanks for the clarifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    The Norse peoples should not be confused with the Basque peoples though (Ireland, England, Spain, Southern France, Etc..).
    I am a little confused by this. Are you saying Basques were in Ireland and England? I was not aware of that.
    Yes.. In fact they still are. Ireland and England (For the most part) are genetically (R1B) Basque people/decedents/brothers. I know many refer to the English (more so) as Anglo-Saxon (I believe all of us were taught that) but, they are not.
    Interesting. Not something I was aware of. I'll have to read some more about that.

    Although, I'm not sure why you associate this group with the Basques specifically. None of the other populations with a high proportion of this marker are Basque speakers (obviously).

    There seems to be little correlation between language and this haplogroup [1]. The relationship is mainly geographical. Given that it seems to be limited to the margins of the British Isles and elsewhere, it may be that it was associated with the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the area. We don't have much information about the pre-Indo-European languages[2] in Europe but the little we do know doesn't show any connection with Basque. Which is a bit surprising perhaps, but suggests that even before the arrival of the Indo-Europeans the population was very mixed.

    Finally, it seems that this specific haplogroup originated in Western Asia and there is no [other] evidence that Basque originated there.

    It would be fascinating if this does shed more light of early population movements in Eurasia. Particularly the populations that brought agriculture.

    [1] Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language
    [2] and I have forgotten most of what I once knew several decades ago
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Yes.. In fact they still are. Ireland and England (For the most part) are genetically (R1B) Basque people/decedents/brothers. I know many refer to the English (more so) as Anglo-Saxon (I believe all of us were taught that) but, they are not.
    I would like to see some documentation on that. As far as my understanding goes the Celtic people of the British Isles may have some basque ancestry. that accounts for many of the Welsh, Irish, Cornish and Scots, but not the bulk of England.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    As far as my understanding goes the Celtic people of the British Isles may have some basque ancestry.
    Do you have more info on that? I don't know much about the origins of the Celts and would be interested to know more.

    A quick google shows that there has been a lot of recent (mid/late 20thC) work on the origins of the Basques. Interesting stuff....

    One obviously needs to be very cautious about assuming an association between linguistic/cultural groups and genetics over these sort of time scales. The Celts and Basques may be genetically related but obviously the languages aren't. Which raises all sorts of interesting questions. Which I doubt can ever be answered with certainty ...
    Last edited by Strange; February 9th, 2012 at 07:36 AM. Reason: 2nd para
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    According to Wikipedia:
    Gonzales and colleagues argued that the presence of a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques in the Upper Palaeolithic.
    presumably not "our" gonzales56?
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    As far as my understanding goes the Celtic people of the British Isles may have some basque ancestry.
    Do you have more info on that? I don't know much about the origins of the Celts and would be interested to know more.
    ..
    Unfortunately not. This is a recollection of something seen or read. It could have been a paper in Nature, or something on the History channel, so there is scope for doubt on its reliability. Add in the uncertainties of my memory and it is no more than anecdotal, yet I feel confident the original contention that the British Isles is peopled by Basques is wide of the mark, given the known Germanic affinities.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    As far as my understanding goes the Celtic people of the British Isles may have some basque ancestry.
    Do you have more info on that? I don't know much about the origins of the Celts and would be interested to know more.

    A quick google shows that there has been a lot of recent (mid/late 20thC) work on the origins of the Basques. Interesting stuff....

    One obviously needs to be very cautious about assuming an association between linguistic/cultural groups and genetics over these sort of time scales. The Celts and Basques may be genetically related but obviously the languages aren't. Which raises all sorts of interesting questions. Which I doubt can ever be answered with certainty ...
    More information for you concerning the English and Celts.

    "The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands. Our subsequent separation from Europe has preserved a genetic time capsule of southwestern Europe during the ice age, which we share most closely with the former ice-age refuge in the Basque country. The first settlers were unlikely to have spoken a Celtic language but possibly a tongue related to the unique Basque language.

    Another wave of immigration arrived during the Neolithic period, when farming developed about 6,500 years ago. But the English still derive most of their current gene pool from the same early Basque source as the Irish, Welsh and Scots. These figures are at odds with the modern perceptions of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon ethnicity based on more recent invasions. There were many later invasions, as well as less violent immigrations, and each left a genetic signal, but no individual event contributed much more than 5 per cent to our modern genetic mix.

    Celtic languages and the people who brought them probably first arrived during the Neolithic period. The regions we now
    regard as Celtic heartlands actually had less immigration from the continent during this time than England. Ireland, being to the west, has changed least since the hunter-gatherer period and received fewer subsequent migrants (about 12 per cent of the population) than anywhere else. Wales and Cornwall have received about 20 per cent, Scotland and its associated islands 30 per cent, while eastern and southern England, being nearer the continent, has received one third of its population from outside over the past 6,500 years. These estimates, set out in my book The Origins of the British, come from tracing individual male gene lines from continental Europe to the British Isles and dating each one."
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    Interesting stuff. Thanks.

    I am slightly uncomfortable about this bit: "The first settlers were unlikely to have spoken a Celtic language but possibly a tongue related to the unique Basque language."

    Basque is the best known of the pre Indo-European languages of the area but there were several others recorded in historic time (including in the Iberian peninsula). We know enough about some of them to know they have no clear relation to Basque. And, obviously, we have no information on the genetics of the speakers of these languages. So, while it is possible that the pre-Celtic language of the British Isles was related to Basque, it may not have been. But as we will never know, I guess Basque is as good a stand-in for "unknown pre Indo-European language" as anything else; it is certainly shorter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Yes.. In fact they still are. Ireland and England (For the most part) are genetically (R1B) Basque people/decedents/brothers. I know many refer to the English (more so) as Anglo-Saxon (I believe all of us were taught that) but, they are not.
    I would like to see some documentation on that. As far as my understanding goes the Celtic people of the British Isles may have some basque ancestry. that accounts for many of the Welsh, Irish, Cornish and Scots, but not the bulk of England.
    According to Professor Stephen Oppenheimer's work the English have the same main ancestry as everyone else on the British Isles.

    Ireland - 88% Ancient Basque Ancestry
    Wales & Cornwall - 80% Ancient Basque Ancestry
    Scotland and its associated islands - 70% Ancient Basque Ancestry
    Eastern and Southern England - 66% Ancient Basque Ancestry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Interesting stuff. Thanks.

    I am slightly uncomfortable about this bit: "The first settlers were unlikely to have spoken a Celtic language but possibly a tongue related to the unique Basque language."

    Basque is the best known of the pre Indo-European languages of the area but there were several others recorded in historic time (including in the Iberian peninsula). We know enough about some of them to know they have no clear relation to Basque. And, obviously, we have no information on the genetics of the speakers of these languages. So, while it is possible that the pre-Celtic language of the British Isles was related to Basque, it may not have been. But as we will never know, I guess Basque is as good a stand-in for "unknown pre Indo-European language" as anything else; it is certainly shorter.
    Much shorter. lol

    Is his educated estimate/guess/possibility based on more than genetic evidence and the fact that the descendants of the Ancient Basque people in Spain and France speak a unique and different language that could have been passed down from the same ancestors? I do not know but, I agree with you that the language of the Ancient Basque peoples in the British Isles are not know as of yet. I believe he was stating the same while putting forth the idea that it is very possible the two languages are/were related at some point.
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    It's not quite as simple as "the great majority have 'Basque' ancestry".

    Genetic_history_of_the_british_isles encyclopedia topics | Reference.com

    And using the word Basque so freely is a bit misleading. It's a very old genetic marker which a) is from the Iberian peninsula and b) is shared by Basque people. But that's not the same as saying that residents of Great Britain are basque. There's a great deal more complexity than that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    It's not quite as simple as "the great majority have 'Basque' ancestry".

    Genetic_history_of_the_british_isles encyclopedia topics | Reference.com

    And using the word Basque so freely is a bit misleading. It's a very old genetic marker which a) is from the Iberian peninsula and b) is shared by Basque people. But that's not the same as saying that residents of Great Britain are basque. There's a great deal more complexity than that.
    It is really not complex at all. In fact, it is pretty simple to understand and digest.

    The Ancient Basque people of the Iberian Peninsula are the ancestors of the Basque in Spain and France and they are the ancestors of the people in the British Isles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    The Ancient Basque people of the Iberian Peninsula are the ancestors of the Basque in Spain and France and they are the ancestors of the people in the British Isles.
    I think you meant "may be" rather than "are".

    But maybe this depends what you mean by the term "Basque". If you are using it to represent a population group with specific genetic markers, then I guess it is a reasonable statement. But I think it is rather misleading to use linguistic terms in this way.

    There is no evidence the ancestors of the people in the British Isles were specifically Basques. We don't even know. They may have been speakers of a related Aquitanian language. They may have been speakers of one of the Iberian group of languages. Or even Etruscans. Or some other linguistic/cultural group. Uralic and Semitic have also been suggested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I think you meant "may be" rather than "are".

    But maybe this depends what you mean by the term "Basque". If you are using it to represent a population group with specific genetic markers, then I guess it is a reasonable statement. But I think it is rather misleading to use linguistic terms in this way.
    I am referring to the Basque Peoples, not language or languages spoken by Basque Peoples.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    How do you define "Basque peoples"?
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    It looks like the "Basques" refer to the people who inhabited western Europe before the Celts arrived and took over the region (France, Iberia, British Isles). The result was a mixture of peoples, so the genes of the pre-Celts survived.
    Last edited by mathman; February 10th, 2012 at 07:58 PM. Reason: error correction
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    How do you define "Basque peoples"?
    I do not define anything. If you are asking me who the Basque Peoples are then I can tell you they are the oldest known living group of people in Europe. This is why when one sees global human DNA studies or global comparisons made between Neandertal DNA and Homo Sapien DNA, it is Basque DNA that is used to represent Europe.

    The Basque Peoples are a very old and ancient peoples. As mentioned, they are by far the oldest know peoples still alive in Europe and it is the descendants of Ancient Basque People who now live in France, Spain and the British Isles.

    If you want to apply a different name to the ancient people of the Iberian Peninsula then by all means go right ahead. I will call them whatever you want me to on this thread if that helps.
    Last edited by gonzales56; February 10th, 2012 at 11:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    In the years 800 and 900 AD German land was France. So are modern Germans still French today?
    some old germanian people are french today they are living in the regions of Elsa and Lothringen but with the time and the french revolution they felt as french
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