Notices
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Article on History of Ethics in Science

  1. #1 Article on History of Ethics in Science 
    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    510
    I've thought for a while that the Nazis could not possibly of been supported by a large number of scientists (after all most of the big names working in physics fled from Germany), and that eugenics (at least the type proposed by the Nazis) was bad science even back then, this makes me think though:

    http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.16...P%5D2.0.CO%3B2


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: Article on History of Ethics in Science 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,176
    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian
    I've thought for a while that the Nazis could not possibly of been supported by a large number of scientists (after all most of the big names working in physics fled from Germany), and that eugenics (at least the type proposed by the Nazis) was bad science even back then, this makes me think though:

    http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.16...P%5D2.0.CO%3B2
    Before we entered World War Two, we sent boatloads of fleeing Jews, out to sea without, provisions, fuel or repairs. To drown if need be. We did not care as a nation.

    The world is still the same, but now we kill the mind and soul. It fools those that do not wish to see it.

    Back in the old days it was more honest. You took a gun, knife chemical, and killed a whole race of people. Today you plan and scheme to silently destroy their mind and soul, to achieve some effect or imagined goal.

    I Liked it the old way. You might not be able to do anything about it. But at least you knew the deal.

    We put all the Japanese into prison camps during World War Two. Took all their land, and possessions. Put them in horse stables to live.

    http://www.Rockwelder.com/History/WWtwo/japs.htm

    We were not any better then Germany. We just had more guys to send to die. We should remember that lesson for the future.

    If we were better then Germany, the War would have been over in a few minutes. It was not about winning the war swiftly. It was about the business of War, on earth. It is big business. Carbon black can make you a billionaire over night.

    It is like going to the horse track, everybody is there to win the race. But very few leave with money.

    Imagine having to get together a big picnic in a hurry. You are in charge of some portion of it. Your mind is consumed with organizing it. You have your orders to setup a picnic. It is just asses and elbows. Then you wait. War is the same. Except there are not steaks and ribs.

    Men in war often learn that there are no leaders at home. Many after a war believe that foreign countries have taken over some how.

    A war is exactly like that. No difference whatsoever. That is why I do not support those that do not support the troops.

    They are our troops. And if they are not, then we need to address that, and who they work for. But not attack our own troops.

    All of this nonsense takes place because we emphasize communism, or capitalism, instead of the individual.

    You can march a communism down to the river to be beheaded at the whim of an emperor. You can get capitalists hypnotized to the ticker tape of Wall Street, a gambling house for the upper middle class.

    If you do that to a country of individuals, you get revolution, a total recall.


    Which do you think the law makers would rather? I think the law makers like both, communists and capitalists.




    Sincerely,


    William McCormick


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: Article on History of Ethics in Science 
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian
    I've thought for a while that the Nazis could not possibly of been supported by a large number of scientists (after all most of the big names working in physics fled from Germany), and that eugenics (at least the type proposed by the Nazis) was bad science even back then, this makes me think though:

    http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.16...P%5D2.0.CO%3B2
    Most people like to think their ethics are rational and "scientific". The Nazis took this to logical extreme conclusion. That's amenable to an objective scientific worldview. But ultimately not to human nature.

    They acknowledged this in a way, thus the superman. The Nazi superman is free of sloppy sentiment and irrational motive, like people today including scientists wish to be completely when ignorant of their own humanity or hiding from it.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,840
    We need to remember that scientists are just human. They have all the faults of other people, and will go with the customs and superstitions of their time.

    I always remember that Isaac Newton claimed a rainbow had seven colours, when it actually has six. (There is no indigo in a rainbow). He decided it had to be seven, since at the time, seven was regarded as God's special number, and God would not design a rainbow with only six colours.

    This is to illustrate that scientists are also fallible, and prone to the same errors and faults as their non scientist peers. It is not surprising that the German scientists in Hitler's regime tended to follow the beliefs of the time.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,176
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    We need to remember that scientists are just human. They have all the faults of other people, and will go with the customs and superstitions of their time.

    I always remember that Isaac Newton claimed a rainbow had seven colours, when it actually has six. (There is no indigo in a rainbow). He decided it had to be seven, since at the time, seven was regarded as God's special number, and God would not design a rainbow with only six colours.

    This is to illustrate that scientists are also fallible, and prone to the same errors and faults as their non scientist peers. It is not surprising that the German scientists in Hitler's regime tended to follow the beliefs of the time.
    I think you have to look for the color indigo. It is in there. It is in the ultra violet band. I can see it.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    708
    I was especially shocked that the Nazis only allowed whole grain bread. The monsters!

    We like to think of Nazi Germany as pure evil. But this view is largely the result of Allied propoganda and the Jewish genocide. Nazis, like all people, were a mixed bag of conflicting motives and morality. And whether we like to think so or not, society drives science, not the other way around.

    Given the strong ideological pressures put on scientists I would take any scientific research done under Nazis with a grain of salt. There would be strong incentive to make sure your research matched the party line. But I don't think it would be wise to just immediately dismiss all Nazi science as bad science. Likewise looking to the future, good science can come from areas where you don't want it to. If a crazed baby eating cannibal in northern Idaho discovers a coherent solution for quantum gravity, the work should be accepted (even if the guy should not be). Scientific work should be judged purely on its own merits, regardless of its source. I think that's the lesson to take away from this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7 Re: Article on History of Ethics in Science 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,176
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian
    I've thought for a while that the Nazis could not possibly of been supported by a large number of scientists (after all most of the big names working in physics fled from Germany), and that eugenics (at least the type proposed by the Nazis) was bad science even back then, this makes me think though:

    http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.16...P%5D2.0.CO%3B2
    Most people like to think their ethics are rational and "scientific". The Nazis took this to logical extreme conclusion. That's amenable to an objective scientific worldview. But ultimately not to human nature.

    They acknowledged this in a way, thus the superman. The Nazi superman is free of sloppy sentiment and irrational motive, like people today including scientists wish to be completely when ignorant of their own humanity or hiding from it.
    It is funny but when, the whole of earth is in grave jeopardy, we somehow start protecting the crippled and animals? When we are least prepared to do so?

    When times were better and a large portion of the masses were realizing we had to do something or else. We tended not to care about those groups as much, on a country level. That was taken care of by religion charity, or it was tough luck.

    We were stronger, and we cared less. We are weaker and we care more?

    That sounds like the old misery loves company. Make people miserable enough and they will seek out miserable people and demise with them. Nice plan.

    Do not get me wrong, I do not disagree with many basic German beliefs. However I hold the Germans accountable for not living up to their own standards. If the Germans had changed their standards or lowered them. They would again have found no reason to bother the Jews. They would probably be speaking Hebrew.

    In other words if they asked the incoming Russian Jews to leave, for some real reason. I would back them. However the Germans could not clean up their own leadership. So they had no business bothering the Jews.

    No one wanted boat loads of Jews. Joseph Stalin killed more Jews, during and after World War Two, then Hitler the United States, and all the other countries on earth. Including the Arab countries up to present. Russia was the Jews home country at the time.

    Try to imagine that a Jew from Russia comes to Germany with only stories of this great Germany in their mind. They get there, there is a shortage of food, clothing and housing. And certainly very little work for unskilled labor.

    Germany's very well know precision machining and quality craftsmanship was known throughout the world. Their chemistry was beyond reproach. Their math and engineering was only matched by a few in the United States.
    Germany had a very large group of well rounded individuals for the size of Germany. They did not like the haphazard behavior of an untrained foreigner that did not speak the language.
    It was hard to get quality out of the Jews. That did not have a life of working with high tech stuff. Just the reality.

    It degraded into the Germans treating them like worthless animals. The Jews thought that the Germans were living it up. Having the good life at their expense. Meanwhile there was no way for the Germans to tell them, that their poor work was not really wanted. And they really did not want to just build a bunch of cheap ugly housing to throw the Jews in.

    Add in that some Jews were beating or exceeding the Germans in excellence, and being used as an example. And it was just too much for the German people to bear.

    Germans have told the tales, of Russian Jews coming into Germany during World War Two, and trading wound watches for perfectly fine watches that needed winding. They would often trade five or six unwound watches for one wound watch.

    So you have to imagine what it was like. Because there really are very few people that out of touch with the mechanized world today. They were not stupid they just had no experience.

    Today we see something like that happening in America with the Spanish people. Some are passing us up. While others are a burden to society. They are just surviving and do not wish to learn the language or set real goals.

    The real problem is there are no more real goals in America. In fact there really is no more real America being upheld by the masses. Which means America, is just real estate, with a lot of fat lazy people on it. An ideal target for those in the market for real estate.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,893
    I'm not a biologist, but the whole eugenics thing always appeared to make sense. What do you suppose life would be like today if for the last 300 years only the upper 25% of the smartest and healthiest people had reproduced? I suspect that we would all be much smarter and healthier. But that sort of program isn't really compatible with the sort of free society that most people want to live in.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    I always remember that Isaac Newton claimed a rainbow had seven colours, when it actually has six. (There is no indigo in a rainbow). He decided it had to be seven, since at the time, seven was regarded as God's special number, and God would not design a rainbow with only six colours.
    I think that's a bit of an urban legend, skeptic. Do you have a reference? There is nothing inherent in the spectrum that would divide it into 6 parts. It is continuous. From what I could find, Newton tried to relate the seven colors to the seven intervals of the musical scale.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    I'm not a biologist, but the whole eugenics thing always appeared to make sense. What do you suppose life would be like today if for the last 300 years only the upper 25% of the smartest and healthiest people had reproduced? I suspect that we would all be much smarter and healthier. But that sort of program isn't really compatible with the sort of free society that most people want to live in.
    Science draws no ethical conclusions, it is a large jump from Darwinism to Social Darwinism and then on to eugenics. Only one of those actually involves any science.

    And William is full of shit as usual, the Jewish immigration into Germany happened hundreds of years before the holocaust. The Jewish community was educated and spoke German about as well as any community that was barely legally recognized as citizens.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,176
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    I'm not a biologist, but the whole eugenics thing always appeared to make sense. What do you suppose life would be like today if for the last 300 years only the upper 25% of the smartest and healthiest people had reproduced? I suspect that we would all be much smarter and healthier. But that sort of program isn't really compatible with the sort of free society that most people want to live in.
    Science draws no ethical conclusions, it is a large jump from Darwinism to Social Darwinism and then on to eugenics. Only one of those actually involves any science.

    And William is full of shit as usual, the Jewish immigration into Germany happened hundreds of years before the holocaust. The Jewish community was educated and spoke German about as well as any community that was barely legally recognized as citizens.
    Did I say that there were not Jews that had migrated to Germany hundreds of years before? Just like there are Spanish in America for hundreds of years, that speak as well as any American? No. You have no problem with them or from them. Just like the many German Jews of old.

    There was a mass influx of Jews, entering Germany, leaving Russia. Joseph Stalin hated Jews. The Germans cared to much to be honest.

    The Germans had no way to deal with the extra people. Their doctrine said that all people were created equal and that anyone on German soil was a German, and had the rights of all or any German. The over population forced the Germans to break their own doctrine. Rather then to work on a real space program. To fix the problem.

    The Germans ended up putting people, from almost every background into the concentration camps. It was not just Jews. But any noticeable difference in times of crises and country wide poverty, is going to be a target. Bread was 70 marks a loaf. They were starving in Germany. The more food and the less people the better.

    They put pure Germans, in concentration camps, they put those of Turkish background, into concentration camps, they put polish into concentration camps. Being Jewish was not a requirement.

    Being Jewish, was just one of many traits that came under attack. And let me say not without some merit. The Jews as a group, were noted for fighting for socialized mental health treatments. Socialized medicine. Socialized food for the poor. Some say they got it.

    The Catholic church backed Hitler.

    Now, don't get me wrong. If Hitler wanted to burn those pushing for socializing Germany. I would back him.
    But you cannot go after Jews, unless a unanimous decision by all Jews, is made, to take on some type of lifestyle that causes some conflict.

    Much like we attack Islam. We claim their religion makes them different. I do not agree with that either. I do not believe it is unanimous.

    It is just convenient to say Islam sucks, and anyone Islamic sucks. Rather then to do a case by case study of Islamic people.

    The Jews have a duty to perform for God, if you read their religious books. No less violent then the works of Islam. We Christians have watered down our bible so we do not have to perform our duty to God.

    But you have seen how it plays out in history. So if you are not against us attacking Islamic people, you could not even think to defend Jews, or Christians. You will not be alone. The Jews and Christians can no longer defend themselves. They are a bag of hypocrisy.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    I'm sorry but bull fucking shit. All you're spouting is complete nonsense, first they aren't productive and don't speak German. Now they're all socialist, and killing socialist is somehow justified.

    All you keep spouting are complete historical inaccuracies, it's just too ridiculous as per your usual garbage.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,176
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    I'm sorry but bull fucking shit. All you're spouting is complete nonsense, first they aren't productive and don't speak German. Now they're all socialist, and killing socialist is somehow justified.

    All you keep spouting are complete historical inaccuracies, it's just too ridiculous as per your usual garbage.
    You are the one with the problem. I am just explaining what took place in Germany so it does not happen here.

    There were many ways to look at the Jews as a whole. Because there were so many individuals Jews. Many Jewish people acted differently. Just like you will find there are exceptions to all stereo types.

    Look at Spanish people in America, there are many that you would not even know are Spanish. And there are some that fit the stereo type that we tend to attack. Have I made any evil accusations about Spanish people. No. Have I made any evil accusations about Jewish people no.

    We are just finding out now, that some Jewish people took to guns and ammo, to protect their land and old Germany. Certainly that was not the norm.

    Some Jews attacked the notion of protecting themselves with violence. So Jews have been attacking Jews. And their differences. Attacking their own individuality.

    I know a lot of people that did not like the Jews because they just walked into concentration camps. These individual Jewish people that fought back, would have broken that stereo type. If only in the minds of those that did not like Jews because they did not defend themselves.

    You seem to feel that Jews are under an attack of some kind. Can you elaborate on this? I do not understand it.

    During a war everyone is a fool, and looks like a fool. Wars are to make money for a handful, and hide failed leadership.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    708
    When saying something controversial, it's good to provide sources...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    It is a documented fact that a greater proportion of Jews served in the German military in WW1 than any other minority. There is also the famous study conducted by the German government in the 30s that found that there was no significant difference in the patriotism of Jews compared to Germans. I swear you make all your post up on the fly William.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,176
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    It is a documented fact that a greater proportion of Jews served in the German military in WW1 than any other minority. There is also the famous study conducted by the German government in the 30s that found that there was no significant difference in the patriotism of Jews compared to Germans. I swear you make all your post up on the fly William.
    What in particular did I make up? Why am I accused of making things up? I need particulars if you are going to accuse me of making stuff up. I love reality. A lot of people do not. That is a sickness. Reality is a total chaos only if you avoid it.

    I do write those posts on the fly. But it is all true, and it is all out there, if you wish to find it. I believe the discovery channel just did a special on the Jewish people that did defend themselves with guns and ammo, in World War Two.

    Unfortunately, our fool of a president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, allied with Joseph Stalin. And those Jews were caught in East Germany. Lucky they survived.

    They beat the Germans, and got captured by Russia.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,176
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    It is a documented fact that a greater proportion of Jews served in the German military in WW1 than any other minority. There is also the famous study conducted by the German government in the 30s that found that there was no significant difference in the patriotism of Jews compared to Germans. I swear you make all your post up on the fly William.

    I have never heard that about the Jews.

    However, all I have to do is look at the current situation. Our military is made up of a lot of minorities. If you look at most of the names that make it into the news. You will see that they are Spanish names. Or Arab names. A lot of black names as well.

    For good deeds and bad deeds. I would imagine it was the same in Germany during the first World War.

    I do not even need to see the report that Jewish patriotism was equal to or better then the average. You can see it today.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •