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Thread: Pfizer vaccine for Covid-19.

  1. #1 Pfizer vaccine for Covid-19. 
    ox
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    Being in 2 high risk groups I was privileged to have had the 1st dose of this vaccine a few days ago. I'll need the second one in 2-3 weeks.
    Only side effect was a sore arm overnight.
    1st dose gives about 52% immunity.
    2nd about 95%.
    Potential for more severe side effects after 2nd in the form of chills, headaches, joint pains.

    Next time I'm in Gloucester Cathedral I'll pay my respects to Edward Jenner.
    He is the man credited with saving more lives that any other through the invention of vaccination.
    He came from nearby Berkeley and there's a statue of him just inside the main entrance.

    https://jennermuseum.com/


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  3. #2  
    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
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    Medicine has saved the lives of untold numbers of people over the last few centuries, when quackery slowly gave way to real medical treatments that helped people survive.

    It has been estimated that just in its last 100 years of rampaging through human populations around the globe, smallpox killed upwards of 500 million people. Jenner was of course instrumental in the eradication of this scourge, using cowpox as a vaccine, particularly after noting that milkmaids were generally immune to smallpox.

    But the issue now is what do we do about all the people which have resulted from the wonders of modern medicine?

    In 1940, at the start of World War II, there were about 2.3 billion people on the planet. That war claimed only ca. 3% of these, despite the enormous battle casualties and related events.

    Today, with the help of modern medicine, the global population has reached about 7.8 billion (U.N. estimate).

    Sadly, this enormous rise in humans trampling the planet has led to a mass extinction event that now threatens the existence of ca. 1 million species, according to some estimates.

    While modern medicine has saved so many lives, some would conclude that it may end up taking many more than it ever saved, based on the current course of events. Those lives, spared by medicine to breed into many billions, have resulted in an overpopulation which is now clearly driving the demise of earth's biosphere, and with it many humans. Billions could perish from many causes (war not the least of them this time), most of which modern medicine will be helpless to prevent.

    How do we curtail these on-going calamities? There is no vaccine for humans pushing and amplifying their own demise. It could be said that this is the ultimate example of "The Rule of Unintended Consequences."

    Ironically, modern medicine appears to be a double-edged sword. And for all those humans, who rule over all the earth, that sword might very well be that of Dr. Damocles.


    Last edited by Double Helix; January 19th, 2021 at 08:36 PM. Reason: clarity
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  4. #3  
    exchemist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Medicine has saved the lives of untold numbers of people over the last few centuries, when quackery slowly gave way to real medical treatments that helped people survive.

    It has been estimated that just in its last 100 years of rampaging through human populations around the globe, smallpox killed upwards of 500 million people. Jenner was of course instrumental in the eradication of this scourge, using cowpox as a vaccine, particularly after noting that milkmaids were generally immune to smallpox.

    But the issue now is what do we do about all the people which have resulted from the wonders of modern medicine?

    In 1940, at the start of World War II, there were about 2.3 billion people on the planet. That war claimed only ca. 3% of these, despite the enormous battle casualties and related events.

    Today, with the help of modern medicine, the global population has reached about 7.8 billion (U.N. estimate).

    Sadly, this enormous rise in humans trampling the planet has led to a mass extinction event that now threatens the existence of ca. 1 million species, according to some estimates.

    While modern medicine has saved so many lives, some would conclude that it may end up taking many more than it ever saved, based on the current course of events. Those lives, spared by medicine to breed into many billions, have resulted in an overpopulation which is now clearly driving the demise of earth's biosphere, and with it many humans. Billions could perish from many causes (war not the least of them this time), most of which modern medicine will be helpless to prevent.

    How do we curtail these on-going calamities? There is no vaccine for humans pushing and amplifying their own demise. It could be said that this is the ultimate example of "The Rule of Unintended Consequences."

    Ironically, modern medicine appears to be a double-edged sword. And for all those humans, who rule over all the earth, that sword might very well be that of Dr. Damocles.
    Who was Dr. Damocles? I've never heard of him.
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  5. #4  
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    "The Sword of Damocles" is an ancient anecdote about the perils of those in power.

    It is used here to denote the potentially fatal aspects of the use, or the abuse, of that power by humans.

    The "Dr." is an honorary title bestowed by this author to dramatize the issue.
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  6. #5  
    ox
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    How do we curtail these on-going calamities? There is no vaccine for humans pushing and amplifying their own demise. It could be said that this is the ultimate example of "The Rule of Unintended Consequences."

    Ironically, modern medicine appears to be a double-edged sword. And for all those humans, who rule over all the earth, that sword might very well be that of Dr. Damocles.
    An inconvenient truth is that humans have overpopulated the earth. But by the end of this century the population might be halved.
    Right now viruses have plenty to feed on. I think we have to limit air travel in particular. What took years now takes hours to spread around the world.

    The price for overpopulation has to be paid in some way.
    Modern medicine does not help to limit population and is a barrier to evolution by natural selection which is based on cruelty and suffering.
    Except that for the last few thousand years of their history humans have wanted an antidote to suffering. I can't see that changing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    An inconvenient truth is that humans have overpopulated the earth. But by the end of this century the population might be halved.
    Right now viruses have plenty to feed on. I think we have to limit air travel in particular. What took years now takes hours to spread around the world.

    The price for overpopulation has to be paid in some way.
    Modern medicine does not help to limit population and is a barrier to evolution by natural selection which is based on cruelty and suffering.
    Except that for the last few thousand years of their history humans have wanted an antidote to suffering. I can't see that changing.

    This is so very true. One can only wonder how humans would have evolved without modern medicine.

    Considering our penchant for waging wars and conquests of others, we might have ended up looking (and acting) like Klingons, at best. (Some of us have the acting part down already!)

    And it is also very true the "price for overpopulation has to be paid in some way." That will almost certainly be the demise of billions of humans, joining all the other species we are driving to their demise. Quite appropriate, some might think......

    The availability of potable water and sufficient nutrition will likely be the biggest problem (excepting a global nuclear exchange). Actually, it already is in many areas of high population density.

    Viruses, as we can see, could also get into the act, as might antibiotic-resistant super bacteria, also brought to us by modern medicine.

    It is likely someone wrote a book about all this, or needs to.
    Last edited by Double Helix; October 14th, 2021 at 10:16 AM. Reason: correcting quote
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  8. #7  
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    Just had my delayed 2nd dose of Pfizer vaccine.
    After a slow and uncertain start it now seems the UK has done extremely well.
    Why has the rest of Europe not done so well, I don't know.
    I'll blame it on the bureaucracy of the EU.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Medicine has saved the lives of untold numbers of people over the last few centuries, when quackery slowly gave way to real medical treatments that helped people survive.

    It has been estimated that just in its last 100 years of rampaging through human populations around the globe, smallpox killed upwards of 500 million people. Jenner was of course instrumental in the eradication of this scourge, using cowpox as a vaccine, particularly after noting that milkmaids were generally immune to smallpox.

    But the issue now is what do we do about all the people which have resulted from the wonders of modern medicine?

    In 1940, at the start of World War II, there were about 2.3 billion people on the planet. That war claimed only ca. 3% of these, despite the enormous battle casualties and related events.

    Today, with the help of modern medicine, the global population has reached about 7.8 billion (U.N. estimate).

    Sadly, this enormous rise in humans trampling the planet has led to a mass extinction event that now threatens the existence of ca. 1 million species, according to some estimates.

    While modern medicine has saved so many lives, some would conclude that it may end up taking many more than it ever saved, based on the current course of events. Those lives, spared by medicine to breed into many billions, have resulted in an overpopulation which is now clearly driving the demise of earth's biosphere, and with it many humans. Billions could perish from many causes (war not the least of them this time), most of which modern medicine will be helpless to prevent.

    How do we curtail these on-going calamities? There is no vaccine for humans pushing and amplifying their own demise. It could be said that this is the ultimate example of "The Rule of Unintended Consequences."

    Ironically, modern medicine appears to be a double-edged sword. And for all those humans, who rule over all the earth, that sword might very well be that of Dr. Damocles.
    Who was Dr. Damocles? I've never heard of him.

    A likely reference to the "Sword of Damocles"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damocles
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  10. #9  
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    A confusion between Damocles and Hippocrates(one of the first doctors after whom the Hippocratic Oath is named)

    There is also the Rod of Asclepius which looks a bit like a sword

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius
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  11. #10  
    ox
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    Just had my 3rd Pfizer jab (a booster) at Edgbaston Cricket Ground, only 2 weeks after I was watching Warwickshire win the County Championship there.
    I can now get a vaccine passport if I want to go travelling.
    It feels great, but I still can't help feeling that all this jabbing is counter Darwinian, and it is only a matter of time before something far more serious hits us.
    There is always a price to pay and human evolution could potentially go backwards.
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  12. #11  
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    OX!!!! Aloha!

    There will always be something else.

    Waiting to get our BOOSTER of Moderna. Hey, polio, small pox, whooping cought, MM&R so many in the past, lets get this one out of our every day lives of fatality once and for all!
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  13. #12  
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    Viruses rule the world, don't they?
    Naked apes are just one of their food sources.

    How many have an extraterrestrial origin?
    Like arriving by way of rocks hitting the Earth.
    When intelligent life is extinguished on this planet there will still be viruses.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Viruses rule the world, don't they?
    Naked apes are just one of their food sources.

    How many have an extraterrestrial origin?
    Like arriving by way of rocks hitting the Earth.
    When intelligent life is extinguished on this planet there will still be viruses.
    Not food sources. Viruses have no metabolism.

    To them, we are manufacturing facilities for more viruses.
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  15. #14  
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    Correction: should have said we are just one of their prey.

    How far would they stretch if you put them end to end?

    https://theconversation.com/what-is-...us-sick-133437
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  16. #15  
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    Anti-darwinian? (First question why "darwinian", given that THAT particular theory is outdated by the current modern synthesis)

    And second. Its not at all, humans as a species are reacting to a change in nature by adaptation
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Anti-darwinian?
    Where did I say that?

    Its not at all, humans as a species are reacting to a change in nature by adaptation
    Going forwards or backwards?
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Just had my delayed 2nd dose of Pfizer vaccine.
    FYI most recent research indicates that the more delay, the better. 12 weeks delay is looking to be close to ideal in terms of reducing hospitalizations.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/35/e2104640118
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  19. #18  
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    That was an issue with autocorrect. I meant to ask Why "darwinism".

    There is no "backwards" in modern synthesis, so the question you attempt to pose is a non-sequitur
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Just had my delayed 2nd dose of Pfizer vaccine.
    FYI most recent research indicates that the more delay, the better. 12 weeks delay is looking to be close to ideal in terms of reducing hospitalizations.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/35/e2104640118

    Looking at the article, it was first received by PNAS for review March 12, 2021 (and published August 31, 2021).

    The PNAS paper assumes a first dose efficacy ≥50%, which is significantly greater than that against the Delta variant, for which it is much lower: ca. 30.7% using the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine *.

    It would seem there are some significant variables in all this, making an optimal lag between doses difficult to assess. It is likely these may vary depending on the variant, and the vaccine being used, among other variables.


    "Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines against the B.1.617.2 (Delta) Variant"

    * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8314739/
    Last edited by Double Helix; October 15th, 2021 at 08:15 PM.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    That was an issue with autocorrect. I meant to ask Why "darwinism".
    Nice try.

    There is no "backwards" in modern synthesis, so the question you attempt to pose is a non-sequitur
    Is it a bird or a snake?

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...snakes-science
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  22. #21  
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    Nice try at what? Asking why you specifically use an outdated term for evolution?


    You tell me, what does the paper you linked say? I know what phylogentics says on the subject, and I know news outlets are atrocious at science reporting. I also know that national geographic is far from the pinnacle of science reporting (case and point the chimeara dinosaur from china they hopped on before the official description was even published. )
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You tell me, what does the paper you linked say? I know what phylogentics says on the subject, and I know news outlets are atrocious at science reporting. I also know that national geographic is far from the pinnacle of science reporting (case and point the chimeara dinosaur from china they hopped on before the official description was even published. )
    Phylo what?
    Chim what?
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  24. #23  
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    Phylogenetics, interrelatedness based on phylogeny

    Chimera ( in the paleontology meaning)
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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