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Thread: Ebola Virus - What should you do?

  1. #201  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I have never used any racist words or implications and I find it detestable that you keep on making racist statements and attribute them to me.
    You find it detestable? That's a laugh.

    When you suggested that money is thrown at poor black people who managed to recover from the worst disease, because as you said, they're poor, so money would be what they are after, right? People who managed not to die, and then lock them up in compound and have them do dangerous work caring for those dying because they 'may' be immune to that strain, what do you think that was? You didn't understand why when I said it was offensive?

    Your argument is steeped in bigotry and the way in which you simply dismiss the risk involved to those few survivors with the argument of just pay them lots. And you are still defending it. You are still demanding that they do laundry, when it's been shown to you, multiple times now, that laundry from those centers are burned, you're still trying to find ways to make them do the dirty work.

    It's obscene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    1. Yes they said there was possible cross immunity and the current strain was the most common.
    So - in summary - you don't know if there is an antibody test that guarantees immunity. "Hey, you just survived this horrific disease. Now get back in there with the diseased! You might catch it again and die; we're not sure. But you might not! Oh, and by the way, you are now confined to the facility." Imagine how motivated (and careful) those people will be.

    Let me ask you a question here. Let's say there were ten doctors in your hometown. A case of Ebola appears and is taken to the hospital.

    Now, in that hospital there are doctors of all skill levels, as is true everywhere. There is Dr. Adams, who was top in his class, a brilliant doctor who is meticulous, careful and thorough. He has extensive experience with infectious disease. Eight other doctors are of various skills, none quite as good as Dr. Adams. Then there's Dr. Zack, a careless sort who is sloppy, haphazard and forgetful. He hasn't worked with infectious disease much and frankly doesn't understand them. They all work on the patient before they identify the disease. Fortunately they all use infectious disease protocol at the insistence of Dr. Adams. But one doctor is sloppy and careless, and Dr. Zack winds up infected. Fortunately he recovers.

    Then YOU get Ebola. You are admitted and are worried about your survival. You are also worried about your family, who live close to the hospital, near where the doctors live. Who do you want taking care of you (and protecting your family through his quarantine protocols) - Dr. Adams or Dr. Zack?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I have never used any racist words or implications and I find it detestable that you keep on making racist statements and attribute them to me.
    You find it detestable? That's a laugh.

    When you suggested that money is thrown at poor black people who managed to recover from the worst disease, because as you said, they're poor, so money would be what they are after, right? People who managed not to die, and then lock them up in compound and have them do dangerous work caring for those dying because they 'may' be immune to that strain, what do you think that was? You didn't understand why when I said it was offensive?

    Your argument is steeped in bigotry and the way in which you simply dismiss the risk involved to those few survivors with the argument of just pay them lots. And you are still defending it. You are still demanding that they do laundry, when it's been shown to you, multiple times now, that laundry from those centers are burned, you're still trying to find ways to make them do the dirty work.

    It's obscene.
    Obscene I find your arguments obscene. I have never said any of the things you imply. You tell untruths for you don't tell the truth. If I say "pay the survivors a decent wage" you turn that into "that money is thrown at poor black people who managed to recover from the worst disease, because as you said, they're poor, so money would be what they are after..." and more on and on with unbelievable exaggerations. You are painting my words in the worst possible way, in a hateful way, to the point where the other readers must be wondering about your own racial attitude.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    1. Yes they said there was possible cross immunity and the current strain was the most common.
    So - in summary - you don't know if there is an antibody test that guarantees immunity. "Hey, you just survived this horrific disease. Now get back in there with the diseased! You might catch it again and die; we're not sure. But you might not! Oh, and by the way, you are now confined to the facility." Imagine how motivated (and careful) those people will be.

    Let me ask you a question here. Let's say there were ten doctors in your hometown. A case of Ebola appears and is taken to the hospital.

    Now, in that hospital there are doctors of all skill levels, as is true everywhere. There is Dr. Adams, who was top in his class, a brilliant doctor who is meticulous, careful and thorough. He has extensive experience with infectious disease. Eight other doctors are of various skills, none quite as good as Dr. Adams. Then there's Dr. Zack, a careless sort who is sloppy, haphazard and forgetful. He hasn't worked with infectious disease much and frankly doesn't understand them. They all work on the patient before they identify the disease. Fortunately they all use infectious disease protocol at the insistence of Dr. Adams. But one doctor is sloppy and careless, and Dr. Zack winds up infected. Fortunately he recovers.

    Then YOU get Ebola. You are admitted and are worried about your survival. You are also worried about your family, who live close to the hospital, near where the doctors live. Who do you want taking care of you (and protecting your family through his quarantine protocols) - Dr. Adams or Dr. Zack?
    A or Z? Look it is obvious, but that isn't the point I'm making. I want A to manage all those Z types, the immune survivors, but they must be under the control of the best A types, but with A having a hands off role to protect A from the virus.
    On CNN today they are excited by the story one-woman-Ebola-hospital which really shows what people with limited knowledge can do.
    I'll see if I can get a link to it later. Damn good story and supports my argument.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 25th, 2014 at 02:26 PM.
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    Woman wearing trash bags saves family from Ebola | HLNtv.com


    • Fatu Kekula created protective clothing from plastic bags, boots, simple mask
    • Turned away from hospital, Kekula took care of family at home


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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    A or Z? Look it is obvious, but that isn't the point I'm making. I want A to manage all those Z types
    Not just no but hell no. I don't want people who have proven they can't follow quarantine protocol working with patients - which is what you are proposing. I want A managing B-Y, competent doctors who have demonstrated they CAN follow protocols.

    Again, this is like only hiring pilots who have caused at least one major crash. In general you're not going to get great pilots.

    On CNN today they are excited by the story one-woman-Ebola-hospital which really shows what people with limited knowledge can do.
    I'll see if I can get a link to it later. Damn good story and supports my argument.
    If it's the "woman with garbage bags takes care of family" story then that's a good example of someone who knows how NOT to get infected while taking care of people. You would ban that woman from working with people until she got Ebola as well - and at that point, in your book, she would somehow become qualified.
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    [QUOTE=billvon;595929]
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    .... You would ban that woman from working with people until she got Ebola as well - and at that point, in your book, she would somehow become qualified.
    Have I ever said I would ban the general population from becoming nurses. NO I admit there are not enough survivors to meet the entire nursing need as it is at the moment.

    So don't put words into my mouth please.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 25th, 2014 at 02:24 PM.
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    Have I ever said I would ban the general population from becoming nurses.
    No, you said you wanted to use people who had already had Ebola to serve as the direct contact with Ebola patients. Thus this woman would not qualify for direct patient care under your proposal since she has not yet had Ebola.

    Now, let's take a woman who did not use garbage bags (or any barriers) because she simply had no clue about contagion vectors. Further imagine she became ill as a result but (fortunately) recovered. In your system, that woman would get priority over the garbage-bag woman for treating patients. That is a foolish goal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Have I ever said I would ban the general population from becoming nurses.
    No, you said you wanted to use people who had already had Ebola to serve as the direct contact with Ebola patients. Thus this woman would not qualify for direct patient care under your proposal since she has not yet had Ebola.

    Now, let's take a woman who did not use garbage bags (or any barriers) because she simply had no clue about contagion vectors. Further imagine she became ill as a result but (fortunately) recovered. In your system, that woman would get priority over the garbage-bag woman for treating patients. That is a foolish goal.
    Yes that is true but the word "only" is not there and I make it clear that the numbers of survivors alone would not be enough to provide for all the staff required.

    Well in the second scenario there would be less confidence that the garbage-bag-girl would not contract Ebola at a later stage. She has not eliminated the chances of her catching the disease and dying at some stage. She is a hero but she is not safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Yes that is true but the word "only" is not there and I make it clear that the numbers of survivors alone would not be enough to provide for all the staff required.
    If you mean you would be willing to recruit anyone who 1) was qualified and 2) who had not contracted Ebola due to their own screwup - and recruited both survivors and uninfected alike - then great, I'd agree with that.

    Well in the second scenario there would be less confidence that the garbage-bag-girl would not contract Ebola at a later stage. She has not eliminated the chances of her catching the disease and dying at some stage. She is a hero but she is not safe.
    Correct - although clearly she is safer than someone who doesn't know anything about infectious disease.

    Compare that to a woman who already had Ebola. She doesn't care much about protocol; she's not going to die. But she might well spread the disease due to her mistakes - mistakes she no longer worries about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Obscene I find your arguments obscene. I have never said any of the things you imply. You tell untruths for you don't tell the truth. If I say "pay the survivors a decent wage" you turn that into "that money is thrown at poor black people who managed to recover from the worst disease, because as you said, they're poor, so money would be what they are after..." and more on and on with unbelievable exaggerations. You are painting my words in the worst possible way, in a hateful way, to the point where the other readers must be wondering about your own racial attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Pay them a good rate and I'd imagine they would do the work.
    Was how you put it.

    Because they are poor, so your solution is to give them lots of money and you imagine they would do the work.

    You even went so far as to say that the professionals should assess the sick, but that only the survivors should be the ones to have close contact with the patients:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm not saying the survivors have to do it all on their own, yes there will be a need for the really skilled to assess patients needs, but most of the patient contact should be done by the survivor support crew.
    Then of course you dismissed the needs and trauma of the survivors by suggesting they can simply be locked up in a compound and made to work in laundries that do not even exist, since it has been demonstrated repeatedly, that laundry, mattresses and everything like that that could have been contaminated is burned. But you went on and on about getting them to wash sheets.

    Your suggestion came across as though you feel that as poor black people, they'd take the money and do the work and that they can just wash sheets and be the ones to be in danger and endanger the rest of the community because the now sick patients, well, the care they should be getting should be from untrained survivors.

    That is how your suggestion has come across and I would be willing to wager that I am not the only one that found it just as offensive.

    If people wish to know about my racial attitude, they can but ask. I am what many would consider as being biracial and one half of that is black and the other half is white. So I find people who suggest just giving poor black people lots of money so they do the dangerous and dirty work and endanger the rest of their communities, to be somewhat racist and offensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Obscene I find your arguments obscene. I have never said any of the things you imply. You tell untruths for you don't tell the truth. If I say "pay the survivors a decent wage" you turn that into "that money is thrown at poor black people who managed to recover from the worst disease, because as you said, they're poor, so money would be what they are after..." and more on and on with unbelievable exaggerations. You are painting my words in the worst possible way, in a hateful way, to the point where the other readers must be wondering about your own racial attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Pay them a good rate and I'd imagine they would do the work.
    Was how you put it.

    Because they are poor, so your solution is to give them lots of money and you imagine they would do the work.

    You even went so far as to say that the professionals should assess the sick, but that only the survivors should be the ones to have close contact with the patients:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm not saying the survivors have to do it all on their own, yes there will be a need for the really skilled to assess patients needs, but most of the patient contact should be done by the survivor support crew.
    Then of course you dismissed the needs and trauma of the survivors by suggesting they can simply be locked up in a compound and made to work in laundries that do not even exist, since it has been demonstrated repeatedly, that laundry, mattresses and everything like that that could have been contaminated is burned. But you went on and on about getting them to wash sheets.

    Your suggestion came across as though you feel that as poor black people, they'd take the money and do the work and that they can just wash sheets and be the ones to be in danger and endanger the rest of the community because the now sick patients, well, the care they should be getting should be from untrained survivors.

    That is how your suggestion has come across and I would be willing to wager that I am not the only one that found it just as offensive.

    If people wish to know about my racial attitude, they can but ask. I am what many would consider as being biracial and one half of that is black and the other half is white. So I find people who suggest just giving poor black people lots of money so they do the dangerous and dirty work and endanger the rest of their communities, to be somewhat racist and offensive.
    You want to be offended therefore you are. If you read something as just as "Pay them a good rate and I'd imagine they would do the work" into some sort of slavery or something, gosh there are no words that won't offend you, for that would apply to any person.

    From the point of controlling the disease in the long run I'm not certain myself whether I would suggest that the nurses are quarantined as well, for could they spread the disease back into the community by accident after work.
    You seem to think it is important that the nurses are allowed to go home every night yet I thought it might be safer if they stayed at the treatment center. That is not imprisonment but a wish to do the best for the community. When you are faced with the prospect of millions of deaths shouldn't that imply it is acceptable to curtail some freedoms for the benefit of the community. I just think it is not a good idea to have so much coming and going from the treatment centers.

    What do the others think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Yes that is true but the word "only" is not there and I make it clear that the numbers of survivors alone would not be enough to provide for all the staff required.
    If you mean you would be willing to recruit anyone who 1) was qualified and 2) who had not contracted Ebola due to their own screwup - and recruited both survivors and uninfected alike - then great, I'd agree with that.

    Well in the second scenario there would be less confidence that the garbage-bag-girl would not contract Ebola at a later stage. She has not eliminated the chances of her catching the disease and dying at some stage. She is a hero but she is not safe.
    Correct - although clearly she is safer than someone who doesn't know anything about infectious disease.

    Compare that to a woman who already had Ebola. She doesn't care much about protocol; she's not going to die. But she might well spread the disease due to her mistakes - mistakes she no longer worries about.
    You bring up some interesting points - I have not heard of anyone who has really caught Ebola from their own screw-up, yet I'm sure there would be cases of course. But you know the people seem to be altering their behavior - there is less shaking of hands, and no bumping into each other, mourning and burial practices are changing, all those things could have been considered contributors.
    Anyone not doing their job right should be fired. That must be standard all over the world isn't it?
    .... safer than someone who doesn't know anything about infectious disease....
    The message is getting out, but the job is enormous.
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    @Tranquille - I want your view on this one please.
    From the point of controlling the disease in the long run I'm not certain myself whether I would suggest that the nurses are quarantined as well, for could they spread the disease back into the community by accident after work.
    Do you think health center workers should be allowed off the premise daily or not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    @Tranquille - I want your view on this one please.
    From the point of controlling the disease in the long run I'm not certain myself whether I would suggest that the nurses are quarantined as well, for could they spread the disease back into the community by accident after work.
    Do you think health center workers should be allowed off the premise daily or not?
    Health care workers are trained and know about decontamination, so why shouldn't they be allowed to return to their homes, hotels, etc?

    After all, they know about infectious diseases, they know how it is transmitted and they also know exactly what they are supposed to do because they are not only trained, but they also know and understand why they have to be so careful and what the risk to themselves and others are if they are not careful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    @Tranquille - I want your view on this one please.
    From the point of controlling the disease in the long run I'm not certain myself whether I would suggest that the nurses are quarantined as well, for could they spread the disease back into the community by accident after work.
    Do you think health center workers should be allowed off the premise daily or not?
    Health care workers are trained and know about decontamination, so why shouldn't they be allowed to return to their homes, hotels, etc?

    After all, they know about infectious diseases, they know how it is transmitted and they also know exactly what they are supposed to do because they are not only trained, but they also know and understand why they have to be so careful and what the risk to themselves and others are if they are not careful.
    Well OK I won't need to insist on them staying in the hostel area of the center.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Well OK I won't need to insist on them staying in the hostel area of the center.
    Because you have a say in the matter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Well OK I won't need to insist on them staying in the hostel area of the center.
    Because you have a say in the matter?
    You know, if they come to me for advice or something like that.
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    I've just seen a report on the lives of survivors, they are stigmatized and people in the community are afraid of them. The thought of giving them work in a treatment center seemed like a good solution. And yes it was a YouTube video but it was a clip from the news broadcaster Al Jazeera. It looked at how the Lives of Ebola survivors deeply affected after recovery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    You bring up some interesting points - I have not heard of anyone who has really caught Ebola from their own screw-up, yet I'm sure there would be cases of course. But you know the people seem to be altering their behavior - there is less shaking of hands, and no bumping into each other, mourning and burial practices are changing, all those things could have been considered contributors.
    Definitely. So nowadays the people who are catching Ebola are the people who have NOT learned those lessons. Again, those are probably not the people you want to recruit.

    Anyone not doing their job right should be fired. That must be standard all over the world isn't it?
    Sure. And if you own a restaraunt you can probably afford to hire a dozen waiters, fire half of them if they screw up, and eventually end up with a good employee base. We should probably be more careful here, and start out with proven-good people.

    I've just seen a report on the lives of survivors, they are stigmatized and people in the community are afraid of them. The thought of giving them work in a treatment center seemed like a good solution.
    Great! Give them any jobs they are qualified for, demonstrated both by their experience and their actions. If they're not qualified to work with patients, then give them jobs serving food, painting hospitals or digging latrines.
    Last edited by billvon; September 26th, 2014 at 12:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    ....
    Great! Give them any jobs they are qualified for, demonstrated both by their experience and their actions. If they're not qualified to work with patients, then give them jobs serving food, painting hospitals or digging latrines.
    If Tranquille doesn't jump up and down saying you are racist I'll have the proof she is biased against me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    If Tranquille doesn't jump up and down saying you are racist I'll have the proof she is biased against me.
    His comment wasn't racist.

    Yours was to say that if they are given enough money, they would do the dangerous work they are completely untrained for and would endanger their whole communities if made to do it because they are untrained. In other words, throw enough money at them and they'd do whatever they were told to do, regardless of how dangerous it was and who gives a shit if they die or kill others in the process. And you kept at it, even after I clearly let you know it was offensive.

    That is how you came across. If you feel offended by that because you think I have a bias against you, then you obviously "want to feel offended".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    . . . I'll have the proof she is biased against me.
    Is everyone on this forum biased against you? Reading your posts, it would seem so.
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    On-line definition of bias: inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair

    It may not be bias.


    @Bob. You are not helping your cause.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    If Tranquille doesn't jump up and down saying you are racist I'll have the proof she is biased against me.
    His comment wasn't racist.

    Yours was to say that if they are given enough money, they would do the dangerous work they are completely untrained for and would endanger their whole communities if made to do it because they are untrained. In other words, throw enough money at them and they'd do whatever they were told to do, regardless of how dangerous it was and who gives a shit if they die or kill others in the process. And you kept at it, even after I clearly let you know it was offensive.

    That is how you came across. If you feel offended by that because you think I have a bias against you, then you obviously "want to feel offended".
    I discussed the idea with my daughter and she could see the value. She said I should write to Helen Clark a former PM of NZ now working with the UN.
    Biography - Helen Clark, UNDP Administrator | UNDP

    I'll let you all know if I get a response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    On-line definition of bias: inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair

    It may not be bias.


    @Bob. You are not helping your cause.
    I would take a bet with you, had I said the exact same words as Billvon, Tranquille would be on my case. How much do you bet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    . . . I'll have the proof she is biased against me.
    Is everyone on this forum biased against you? Reading your posts, it would seem so.
    No. Billvon is nearly on my side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I discussed the idea with my daughter and she could see the value. She said I should write to Helen Clark a former PM of NZ now working with the UN.
    Biography - Helen Clark, UNDP Administrator | UNDP

    I'll let you all know if I get a response.
    You're going to suggest they start doing laundry that is currently being burned because it is too risky to launder it?

    I would take a bet with you, had I said the exact same words as Billvon, Tranquille would be on my case. How much do you bet?
    Billvon is arguing on the side of sanity. Had you said the exact same words as Billvon, I would not have been on your case.

    Had Billvon suffered a brain injury and came out with what you argued for in this thread, I'd have been on his case for arguing for such a stupid idea.

    No. Billvon is nearly on my side.
    How's that concussion going, Robittybob1?




    To try to get this thread back on track once again:

    The death toll from an outbreak of Ebola in West Africa has risen to at least 3,091 out of 6,574 probable, suspected and confirmed cases, the World Health Organization said on Friday.

    Liberia has recorded 1,830 deaths, around three times as many as in either Guinea or Sierra Leone, the two other most affected countries, according to WHO data received up to Sept. 23.

    An outbreak that began in a remote corner of Guinea has taken hold of much of neighboring Liberia and Sierra Leone, prompting warnings that tens of thousands of people may die from the worst outbreak of the disease on record.

    The WHO update said Liberia had reported six confirmed cases of Ebola and four deaths in the Grand Cru district, which is near the border with Ivory Coast and had not previously recorded any cases of Ebola.

    The district of Kindia in Guinea also reported its first confirmed case, the WHO said, a day after it said the spread of Ebola appeared to have stabilized in that country.
    The predictions regarding Ebola are not good.

    In fact, they are very very concerning and they virtually mirror the WHO forecast for the spread of the disease.

    More than 6,240 people in West Africa have been infected in the worst Ebola outbreak in history. The World Health Organization (WHO) has warned that, without drastic measures to halt the disease's spread, that number may rise to 20,000 infections by the beginning of November.


    Ramon Martinez, a health metrics advisor to the WHO's Regional Office for the Americas, dug into WHO data to produce a series of interactive graphs forecasting the rate at which Ebola could possibly spread. The graphs were developed using a forecasting model called exponential smoothing and published on Martinez' blog Health Intelligence. They show a week-by-week forecast of the possible number of cases in the three worst-affected countries: Guinea, Liberia and Sierra Leone.
    Martinez told The WorldPost that such forecasts are important as they help health services to "prepare for what is coming." Already, the Ebola outbreak has overwhelmed national health services in West Africa, and the United Nations has appealed for more international aid to stem the crisis.


    Overall, Martinez predicts the number of Ebola cases will surpass 20,000 by Nov. 2, a similar projection to that of the WHO. He does expect the number of cases in Liberia to rise more dramatically than WHO Ebola researchers foresee. Some of the variances are due to using different forecasting models, Martinez explained.


    Researchers warn that forecasting the possible rise of the number of Ebola cases is difficult and that the developments of the outbreak are unpredictable. The number of Ebola infections rates may be dramatically higher than the official national data reported to the WHO, as many cases go unreported. In addition, some scientists caution that forecasts attempting to look too far into the future become unreliable. "These predictions are like the weather forecast... these are statistical predictions, so you have uncertainty cones," Northeastern University physicist Alessandro Vespignani told The Washington Post.
    All this comes after Sierra Leone implemented sweeping travel restrictions and virtually locked down certain parts of the country with strict levels of quarantine to prevent it spreading.
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    Do you agree that was a dumb thing to do?
    People ended up dying in those locked down areas of other diseases and of hunger.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 26th, 2014 at 11:34 PM.
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    Helen Clark seems to be the right person to contact: Not easy to get hold of though.
    Helen Clark: Statement at the High-Level Meeting on Response to the Ebola Virus Disease Outbreak

    25 Sep 2014

    Helen Clark, UNDP Administrator and Chair of the UN Development Group
    Statement 

    at the
    High-Level Meeting on Response to the Ebola Virus Disease Outbreak
    United Nations, New York

    We have heard today about the magnitude of the Ebola outbreak in West Africa. It is a formidable public health crisis which threatens to reverse development and peace-building gains in the most-affected countries and in the region.

    A response with the scope, scale and speed needed for this complex emergency, with its political, and social, economic security dimensions, requires urgent and co-ordinated global action. This was the core message of the historic resolution co-sponsored by 134 Member States and unanimously adopted by the Security Council on 18 September.

    Ebola’s socio-economic impact is being felt nationwide in the affected countries and across all segments of society. It is also being felt across the region. A recent World Bank study predicts reduced economic growth in the affected countries of between 2.1 and 3.4 percentage points of GDP in 2014, and up to almost twelve per cent for 2015 in a “High Ebola Scenario” in Liberia. The effect of the epidemic is being felt mostly in key sectors of the productive economy - in agriculture, mining, manufacturing, and in services. Ebola’s disproportionate impact on women also has economic implications. It is important to be developing now socio-economic recovery strategies.

    The Secretary-General has called for concerted and co-ordinated international action to combat the spread of the Ebola crisis, under the leadership of the United Nations Mission for Ebola Emergency Response whose job it is to mobilize the necessary commitments and direct them to where they are most needed.

    UN Country Teams have significant assets and a long standing presence in the most affected countries and beyond. Deploying these assets will be a vital part of the country, regional and global response to Ebola called for by the Security Council.

    It is critical that the UN works as one to support the most-affected countries to translate resources received into an effective response. This includes using the United Nations Resident Co-ordinator's Country Team leader and co-ordination roles to support responses at the country level which engage all agencies with the capacity to help. The United Nations Development Group’s regional directors team is also closely engaged in supporting Country Teams and assessing the regional impact and how to address it.

    Respective UN Country Teams are supporting Ebola response plans in second tier countries where some cases have emerged, and where there is a need to intensify strategic support to governments so they can be ready and able to respond quickly.

    For those countries with no reported cases yet which are concerned about their vulnerability to Ebola, UN Country Teams are supporting contingency planning capacities of their national counterparts, using the lessons learnt from the Avian Flu/H1N1 experience.



    Funding and support is needed to ramp up existing development system capacity on the ground in the most-affected countries. In turn, we seek to build capacity for nationally led responses, and to strengthen the capacities of national institutions which are under great pressure in the face of Ebola.
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  31. #231  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    No. Billvon is nearly on my side.
    Could be. Your original suggestion - "This is what I'd like to see; the ones who have survived the disease going back in a treating the sick since they have the immunity and shouldn't need to worry so much . . .I would like to see those who have recovered being trained as nurses for those who are now ill" is, IMO, a very bad idea that would do far more harm than good. However, if you have come over to my recent suggestion, to consider ANY people - including recently infected locals - who are qualified for the job, demonstrated both by their experience and their actions, then great, we are getting close to the same page.

    If, on the other hand, they're not qualified to work with patients, then give them jobs serving food, painting hospitals or digging latrines. If they are not qualified even for those jobs (perhaps because they got infected through their own carelessness) then of course do not hire them, and keep them far away if possible.

    The really important concept there is to hire people based on competence and skill, not whether they are local or infected. This is too important to use unqualified people out of fear, political considerations or racial considerations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    ...
    The really important concept there is to hire people based on competence and skill, not whether they are local or infected. This is too important to use unqualified people out of fear, political considerations or racial considerations.
    Just one point. Why do you call them infected when they are recovered? In other words they are no longer infected but immune.
    OK get them working but have the ones with the highest immunity in the frontline e.g. at the reception area. I was disappointed with your idea of just giving them menial tasks and not making use of their most valuable asset, which is their immunity.
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    Make a donation helping the UN solve global problems!
    https://secure.globalproblems-global...donation=form1
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  34. #234  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you agree that was a dumb thing to do?
    People ended up dying in those locked down areas of other diseases and of hunger.
    What? Where did you come up with that? The latest quarantine measures only went up like 2 days ago and you are claiming that people are dying because they are under quarantine? I am afraid to ask how you came up with that idea, because I really don't want to know.

    It's called quarantine. How can you consider it to be dumb? It is the best way to stop it from spreading further.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Just one point. Why do you call them infected when they are recovered? In other words they are no longer infected but immune.
    OK get them working but have the ones with the highest immunity in the frontline e.g. at the reception area. I was disappointed with your idea of just giving them menial tasks and not making use of their most valuable asset, which is their immunity.
    Reception area?

    They're being treated in tents in some cases. There is no reception area, just as there is no laundry.

    You cannot use people who are not only unskilled, but untrained and most probably terrified to do this kind of work. The sick deserve qualified medical workers. Do you understand this? Actually, don't bother answering. Enough is enough.

    Can we please stop with this nonsense? I've been trying to get this thread back on track and you keep dragging it back again. Write to Helen Clark, whatever. Just stop going on and on and on over points that have already been discussed repeatedly and proven to be wrong, repeatedly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you agree that was a dumb thing to do?
    People ended up dying in those locked down areas of other diseases and of hunger.
    What? Where did you come up with that? The latest quarantine measures only went up like 2 days ago and you are claiming that people are dying because they are under quarantine? I am afraid to ask how you came up with that idea, because I really don't want to know.

    It's called quarantine. How can you consider it to be dumb? It is the best way to stop it from spreading further.
    It was mentioned on CNN after Amanpour, they often give the Ebola updates in the morning NZ time and it was reported this week (on the news so I don't have it in documented form).
    Those lockdown areas have been in place for weeks in Liberia. I'm sure of that. I'll try and see if is reported.
    Recently they tried just a 3 day quarantine but before that some areas have been no go zones for weeks.
    YT notes but showing actual footage of the terror, too horrible to watch.
    Liberia's West Point slum under Ebola quarantine - violence escalates

    Published on Aug 22, 2014
    In what is perhaps the most squalid slum in western Africa, the raid of an Ebola clinic, in which patients and contaminated bedding were looted by residents who view Ebola as a myth. This left the barely-functioning government of Liberia with few choices. The entire population of West Point has been quarantined. There is no sanitation, no plumbing beyond three filthy toilets, food is growing scarce, and people are trying to escape. The government has responded with force. Meanwhile the grim Ebola clock grinds forward. It's nearly impossible to envision a positive outcome.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 27th, 2014 at 01:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Just one point. Why do you call them infected when they are recovered? In other words they are no longer infected but immune.
    OK get them working but have the ones with the highest immunity in the frontline e.g. at the reception area. I was disappointed with your idea of just giving them menial tasks and not making use of their most valuable asset, which is their immunity.
    Reception area?

    They're being treated in tents in some cases. There is no reception area, just as there is no laundry.

    You cannot use people who are not only unskilled, but untrained and most probably terrified to do this kind of work. The sick deserve qualified medical workers. Do you understand this? Actually, don't bother answering. Enough is enough.

    Can we please stop with this nonsense? I've been trying to get this thread back on track and you keep dragging it back again. Write to Helen Clark, whatever. Just stop going on and on and on over points that have already been discussed repeatedly and proven to be wrong, repeatedly.
    Even if they were tents there would be an distance between the gate and the reception point, or the tent. "Terrified" To overcome their fear they would need to be told they are safe.
    You never change your view do you . Good bye Tranquille. What's Helen Clark's email address BTW?
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  38. #238  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Even if they were tents there would be an distance between the gate and the reception point, or the tent. "Terrified" To overcome their fear they would need to be told they are safe.
    You never change your view do you . Good bye Tranquille. What's Helen Clark's email address BTW?
    My God!

    Okay.

    So just telling them is going to make them all okay with it? That's hysterical.

    It's not 'a tent'. There will be several areas. Or multiple tents or areas cordoned off for specific people. Those who suspect they may have it or want to have their blood tested are in one area. Those showing symptoms but are still awaiting results are usually kept in another area. Those confirmed with the disease are also kept separate from the other two areas. There are deconimation points for entry and exit for each one. There is no reception. There is a triage area where medical personnel will assess people who enter the first area for testing. They are the doctors and nurses who know the symptoms, take temperatures, details, ask about people's movements and contact with anyone possibly infected, etc. This is where the initial medical assessment begins.

    There is no reception.

    Aside from that, they also have education programs, telling locals to not shake hands, not have bodily contact with others. And then they have the people who go out into the streets, looking for anyone who could be infected or collecting the bodies of the dead. Since the dead can also transmit the disease, this has to be done with the utmost care and the person's belongings and anything that could have been contaminated is burned and the whole area where they lived, even whole houses, are disinfected and decontaminated.

    No, there is no reception where people check in. There's sitting in tents waiting results blood tests that are taken on arrival and extensive monitoring by trained medical professionals. Those who require medical treatment are treated by medical professionals because it entails:

    Symptoms of Ebola are treated as they appear. The following basic interventions, when used early, can significantly improve the chances of survival:

    • Providing intravenous fluids (IV)and balancing electrolytes (body salts)
    • Maintaining oxygen status and blood pressure
    • Treating other infections if they occur
    No, this cannot be done by untrained survivors.

    There is also no laundry area or laundry to wash as everything that came in with the patient is burned. When the patients leave, if they survive, and that is a big if, they are given clean clothes.

    Do you understand now?

    I don't know how else you are going to be able to understand this? My 7 year old gets it. Why can't you?

    As for Helen Clark, you're the one who wants to write to her because you think your idea is brilliant, go look it up. Do your homework.
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    Goodbye Tranquille, you can go now.

    You can't tell me the treatment centers don't have a reception area, or an admissions area, which amounts to the same thing. You are just too much. Go now please.
    Can't you see they are calling it the "Triage" tent, that is the reception area.
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  40. #240  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Goodbye Tranquille, you can go now.

    You can't tell me the treatment centers don't have a reception area, or an admissions area, which amounts to the same thing. You are just too much. Go now please.
    Can't you see they are calling it the "Triage" tent, that is the reception area.
    A triage tent/room/area is where medical personnel assess the patients. It is not reception. It's doctors and nurses taking temperatures, drawing blood, looking at the people coming in, and starting them on whatever treatment they need, starting them on drips and trying to determine if they pose a risk and need to be isolated straight away, or if they are not going to pose a risk to others who may have the disease. This is the bare minimum.

    It's not reception area with people meeting and greeting. It's where they assess who has to go where and that assessment has to be done by medical professionals, not by untrained and unskilled survivors. Failure in the triage room could result in healthy people who have similar symptoms being infected or having sick people be sent home because the danger was not recognised.

    I'll put it this way. Say you have an accident and you are rushed to the emergency room. You are taken to a room and assessed by doctors and nurses, where they try to determine the extent of your injuries, what treatment you will need, what medication you will need, what surgeries you will need. That is triage. Your suggestion that untrained and unskilled people do this type of work will result in more people dying. For example, say you are rushed to the hospital and your first point of contact is not doctors and nurses, but untrained and unskilled people working in the triage room who a) don't know how to assess your injuries, b) don't understand or know what kind of injuries you can sustain with the type of accident you have had, c) do not understand, nor are they able to recognise what symptoms of internal injuries you may have, d) don't know what sort of xrays, scans or tests to order for you because they lack the expertise for a) - c)..

    If it is a case of multiple patients who suffered in the accident, triage would begin at the accident site as trained professionals determined who needed the most urgent care and what sort, and who had to be transported first with what care and alerting the hospital of what was incoming.

    Now do you understand why you need to have medical professionals working in triage?

    Can we please, please, please, go back to discussing the virus and the outbreak now? Because each time I've tried to discuss the outbreak and what is currently happening, you have interrupted and thrown it off course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post

    A triage tent/room/area is where medical personnel assess the patients. It is not reception. It's doctors and nurses taking temperatures, drawing blood, looking at the people coming in,....
    That's what I mean the place where they are "coming in" - reception admission, triage, that's exactly what I mean. How do the sick patients get from their "car" to the triage? Then after the triage how do the sick patients get from the triage to the treatment tents?
    We might move on after this if you get this right! Can't you see those jobs could easily be done by survivors?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That's what I mean the place where they are "coming in" - reception admission, triage, that's exactly what I mean. How do the sick patients get from their "car" to the triage? Then after the triage how do the sick patients get from the triage to the treatment tents?
    We might move on after this if you get this right! Can't you see those jobs could easily be done by survivors?
    Their cars?

    What car?

    These people barely have enough food to eat every day. What car?

    This isn't a hospital with admissions and reception.

    The people who have them move around have to be in protective clothing and decontaminated before they enter each area and especially after they leave each area so that they do not spread the disease around. There are people with spray bottles of chlorine spraying the ground and special areas where they have to dip their boots into bleach in particular order and then be sprayed down as they change out of their gear for each area. Changing out of gear means removing the pieces of their gear in a certain order and each layer has someone standing there spraying them.

    The people walking them from triage to waiting areas or to the ebola rooms, have to go through this process each time.

    There's no meet and greet. There's no reception and admissions. There's a tent/room/area where these patients are quickly assessed by professionals and treated accordingly, which is called the triage room. Those who cannot walk, or are too sick to walk, are carried on stretches by medical professionals dressed in the protective clothing and moving them requires certain steps and gates where they can be decontaminated to ensure there is no possible risk of infecting anyone who may not be sick in there. This is the reality of triage and ebola and pretty much any infectious outbreak.

    I cannot believe that we've wasted so many posts on this insanity and you still don't understand it and you're still demanding something that will endanger more lives.

    At this point, I don't know if you are just naive and stupid or trolling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Their cars?

    What car?

    These people barely have enough food to eat every day. What car?
    "Cars" in quotations you can read into that Rolls Royce or Mercedes ... just joking. I tried in the simplest way to describe whatever means they made it thus far, whether by wheelbarrow, donkey, bus, truck, taxi or whatever. Why are you being so difficult?
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  44. #244  
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    You're now on ignore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    You're now on ignore.
    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    You're now on ignore.
    Thank you.
    Robbity, where do you live? The reason I ask is that I never want to go there. Ever.

    Wait . . . on second thought, don't tell me. You may live in a place I like and that place would forever be poisoned in my mind.
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    Here's something to cheer me up.
    Ebola virus outbreak: Liberia doctor treating patients with HIV drugs reports success
    Now that makes some sense since they are both viral diseases.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-9759642.html


    Dr Gobee Logan told CNN he began treating patients at a clinic in Tubmanburg with the drug lamivudine in a bid to save his their lives.Mr Logan says he has treated 15 Ebola victims with the drug so far – and 13 have survived, producing a mortality rate of seven per cent.
    This figure is particularly low considering the 70 per cent mortality rate associated with the current outbreak.
    Now that is a glimmer of hope.

    Wow more good news the number of survivors could get up to a reasonable level to man the new hospitals the US is going to build!
    Interesting photos in the article showing what life is like out of the slums.
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    Looking into using HIV drugs to treat Ebola further I found this quote from Dr. Logan ""I'm sure that when [patients] present early, this medicine can help," Logan said. "I've proven it right in my center.""

    How expensive is this drug?
    How early after contact can it be used?
    How easy is it to get?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Lamivudine is an analogue of cytidine. It can inhibit both types (1 and 2) of HIVreverse transcriptase and also the reverse transcriptase ofhepatitis B. It is phosphorylated to active metabolites that compete for incorporation into viral DNA. They inhibit the HIV reverse transcriptase enzyme competitively and act as a chain terminator of DNA synthesis. The lack of a 3'-OH group in the incorporated nucleoside analogue prevents the formation of the 5' to 3' phosphodiester linkage essential for DNA chain elongation, and therefore, the viral DNA growth is terminated.


    It is surprising that this drug wasn't tried earlier.
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  49. #249  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Just one point. Why do you call them infected when they are recovered?
    Because that's the primary criteria you seem to use - that they were infected. Call them "previously infected" if you like.
    OK get them working but have the ones with the highest immunity in the frontline e.g. at the reception area. I was disappointed with your idea of just giving them menial tasks and not making use of their most valuable asset, which is their immunity.
    You once again misread. If there is a brilliant clinician who was not infected, use them in the clinic. If there's a brilliant clinician who was infected and recovered - AND did not become infected due to their own mistake - then use them in the clinic. If there is a clinician who was infected via their own mistake, then they would best make further mistakes in a local (say) school or store, where they will not spread Ebola through future mistakes.

    Our basic difference is this. I think we should decide where to use people based on their competence, skill and track record. You think we should use local people based on whether they have been sick. One gets us competent and skilled medical workers, which gives us the best chance to stop this before it becomes a much larger epidemic. One . . . doesn't. So ask yourself how many people you are willing to see die in the name of this "formerly sick people first" mantra.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Just one point. Why do you call them infected when they are recovered?
    Because that's the primary criteria you seem to use - that they were infected. Call them "previously infected" if you like.
    OK get them working but have the ones with the highest immunity in the frontline e.g. at the reception area. I was disappointed with your idea of just giving them menial tasks and not making use of their most valuable asset, which is their immunity.
    You once again misread. If there is a brilliant clinician who was not infected, use them in the clinic. If there's a brilliant clinician who was infected and recovered - AND did not become infected due to their own mistake - then use them in the clinic. If there is a clinician who was infected via their own mistake, then they would best make further mistakes in a local (say) school or store, where they will not spread Ebola through future mistakes.

    Our basic difference is this. I think we should decide where to use people based on their competence, skill and track record. You think we should use local people based on whether they have been sick. One gets us competent and skilled medical workers, which gives us the best chance to stop this before it becomes a much larger epidemic. One . . . doesn't. So ask yourself how many people you are willing to see die in the name of this "formerly sick people first" mantra.
    The principle behind my concept was to separate the patient and the doctor, not to have fewer doctors or no doctors at all. You still word it as if I'd have no trained doctors or nurses, but I'd give them more of an overseer role so they are more protected through the fact there is no (or less) patient contact. I doubt if one could ever get to the point of knowing who was to blame for a patient's infection.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 28th, 2014 at 12:01 AM. Reason: changed "no patient contact" to "no (or less) patient contact".
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  51. #251  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    You once again misread. If there is a brilliant clinician who was not infected, use them in the clinic. If there's a brilliant clinician who was infected and recovered - AND did not become infected due to their own mistake - then use them in the clinic. If there is a clinician who was infected via their own mistake, then they would best make further mistakes in a local (say) school or store, where they will not spread Ebola through future mistakes.

    Our basic difference is this. I think we should decide where to use people based on their competence, skill and track record. You think we should use local people based on whether they have been sick. One gets us competent and skilled medical workers, which gives us the best chance to stop this before it becomes a much larger epidemic. One . . . doesn't. So ask yourself how many people you are willing to see die in the name of this "formerly sick people first" mantra.
    He doesn't care. He doesn't think the doctors and nurses should be coming into contact with the patients. This means that the patients will have untrained and unexperienced survivors of the disease inserting IV's, taking blood tests, monitoring blood pressure and other complications that arise with internal bleeding. For him, the doctors would just be monitoring everything from afar. Apparently this is what the sick deserve. Not to have professionals treating them, but to have completely untrained and unskilled survivors providing medical care that doctors and nurses are trained and equipped to provide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    You once again misread. If there is a brilliant clinician who was not infected, use them in the clinic. If there's a brilliant clinician who was infected and recovered - AND did not become infected due to their own mistake - then use them in the clinic. If there is a clinician who was infected via their own mistake, then they would best make further mistakes in a local (say) school or store, where they will not spread Ebola through future mistakes.

    Our basic difference is this. I think we should decide where to use people based on their competence, skill and track record. You think we should use local people based on whether they have been sick. One gets us competent and skilled medical workers, which gives us the best chance to stop this before it becomes a much larger epidemic. One . . . doesn't. So ask yourself how many people you are willing to see die in the name of this "formerly sick people first" mantra.
    He doesn't care. He doesn't think the doctors and nurses should be coming into contact with the patients. This means that the patients will have untrained and inexperienced survivors of the disease inserting IV's, taking blood tests, monitoring blood pressure and other complications that arise with internal bleeding. For him, the doctors would just be monitoring everything from afar. Apparently this is what the sick deserve. Not to have professionals treating them, but to have completely untrained and unskilled survivors providing medical care that doctors and nurses are trained and equipped to provide.
    "More of a overseer role" so how far back is that? Technicians can take blood samples, blood pressure tests, OK it might be a bit more complicated setting up drips but we'd work that out as to who could do that, the doctor might have to do those.
    The same as when Tranquille says "the doctors would just be monitoring everything from afar". How far back is that? Afar for some reason gives the feeling of a bit too far back.

    The Merriam Webster Dictionary defined Afar as " from, to, or at a great distance <roamed afar>"
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 28th, 2014 at 12:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The principle behind my concept was to separate the patient and the doctor, not to have fewer doctors or no doctors at all. You still word it as if I'd have no trained doctors or nurses, but I'd give them more of an overseer role so they are more protected through the fact there is no (or less) patient contact.
    That's exactly what I thought you meant.

    Starting IV's? You want some guy who was sick who practiced for a day or two on a dead pig, not a nurse who has been doing it for 15 years. Which one is more likely to end up with blood on their shoes?

    Physical exam? You want some guy who was sick who gets told "feel his jaw and see if the nodes are swollen" rather than a primary care doctor with years of experience. Who is more likely to miss the nodes and send the infected patient home to their family?

    Doing a blood draw? You want some guy who was sick who saw a video doing it rather than an experienced phlebotomist. Which one will you see more accidental needle sticks with?

    I doubt if one could ever get to the point of knowing who was to blame for a patient's infection.
    Right. How would they know? Most of them are not doctors; they don't know how they got infected. They often don't know much about how contagion works. And these are the people you want DEALING WITH INFECTED PEOPLE?

    It's pretty simple. If you want good results, get good people. If you don't give a s**t about results, choose formerly sick patients first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The principle behind my concept was to separate the patient and the doctor, not to have fewer doctors or no doctors at all. You still word it as if I'd have no trained doctors or nurses, but I'd give them more of an overseer role so they are more protected through the fact there is no (or less) patient contact.
    That's exactly what I thought you meant.

    Starting IV's? You want some guy who was sick who practiced for a day or two on a dead pig, not a nurse who has been doing it for 15 years. Which one is more likely to end up with blood on their shoes?

    Physical exam? You want some guy who was sick who gets told "feel his jaw and see if the nodes are swollen" rather than a primary care doctor with years of experience. Who is more likely to miss the nodes and send the infected patient home to their family?

    Doing a blood draw? You want some guy who was sick who saw a video doing it rather than an experienced phlebotomist. Which one will you see more accidental needle sticks with?

    I doubt if one could ever get to the point of knowing who was to blame for a patient's infection.
    Right. How would they know? Most of them are not doctors; they don't know how they got infected. They often don't know much about how contagion works. And these are the people you want DEALING WITH INFECTED PEOPLE?

    It's pretty simple. If you want good results, get good people. If you don't give a s**t about results, choose formerly sick patients first.
    It is not without its difficulties. You know all those could be doctor/nurse roles, and just the lifting, moving, cleaning up roles assigned to the other group. But the thing is to bring the survivors into the mix. Maybe you are right and I should go back to the roles they were best at as you proposed above, but bring them on board, and give them opportunities to do training at the same time, so they might develop some of the higher skills.

    I'll see if I get a response from the UN. I'll then have to write up a sort of proposal based on the best ideas that we have discussed here, but it all needs to be done urgently if it is to have any hope of stemming the Ebola epidemic.
    That will done this week with a bit of luck, but if I don't hear from someone in the UN, well I'm unsure where to go then.
    Thanks Billvon and Tranquille.
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    Now that was a good story, thanks for the support.
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    That survivor was also a lab technician in a hospital, so he is skilled and experienced in drawing blood. The article also states that there is no data on whether humans develop any long term immunity from ebola. They are just guessing that they may. So this particular survivor knows and understands those terms. But most importantly, he is a skilled medical professional.

    And now, he will probably have been trained in working in the protective gear, since he is also required to wear the full protective gear as they are not sure that he has any long term immunity.

    The MSF are training survivors. They are training them to be a part of the 'health promotion team', which would entail speaking to the general public about not being afraid of doctors and to seek medical care. Which is a good idea. Much better than having untrained and unskilled people drawing blood and providing medical treatment to the sick or having them work with the sick at all, because they are not trained for that.
    Last edited by Tranquille; September 29th, 2014 at 08:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    That survivor was also a lab technician in a hospital, so he is skilled and experienced in drawing blood. The article also states that there is no data on whether humans develop any long term immunity from ebola. They are just guessing that they may. So this particular survivor knows and understands those terms. But most importantly, he is a skilled medical professional.

    And now, he will probably have been trained in working in the protective gear, since he is also required to wear the full protective gear as they are not sure that he has any long term immunity.

    The MSF are training survivors. They are training them to be a part of the 'health promotion team'. Which is a good idea. Much better than having untrained and unskilled people drawing blood and providing medical treatment to the sick.
    Great tweet. The idea is gaining momentum so even if I can't get the message to the UN quickly, it doesn't matter, for it seems to be happening anyhow.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 29th, 2014 at 01:06 PM.
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    This is frankly more than I have time or inclination to plough through, but I offer it for those who might. MMWR Vol. 63 / Early Release
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    Morbidity and mortality weekly report! I've noted a lot less being reported about Ebola in the last week on CNN. ISIS seems to be hogging the headlines.
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    I wonder how they estimate how dangerous ebola is. How do they know how wide spread it's gonna be, i mean that has to be a very scientifically intense method to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aknyazik View Post
    I wonder how they estimate how dangerous ebola is. How do they know how wide spread it's gonna be, i mean that has to be a very scientifically intense method to do so.
    If you see it has been doubling in numbers every 3 weeks in the past, it is simply doubling it every three weeks into the projected future. It may not happen, but it was a warning.
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    A case in the USA!
    "What you need to know about the Ebola outbreak"
    What you need to know about the Ebola outbreak - The Times of India
    This article covers the incidence rates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aknyazik View Post
    I wonder how they estimate how dangerous ebola is..
    On the "more dangerous" side -
    Is often fatal.
    No proven vaccine.
    Symptoms include more rapid release of bodily fluids (including blood.)

    On the "less dangerous" side -
    Is often rapidly fatal. (Dead patients soon stop spreading disease.)
    Must be spread through direct mucosal contact with infected bodily fluids.
    Is not contagious until symptoms appear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Now that was a good story, thanks for the support.
    This is isn't about you. (Although WMAP data may, superficially, suggest you are at the centre of the universe, this turns out to be a frame of reference situation.) This is considerably more important than about you winning or losing an argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Now that was a good story, thanks for the support.
    This is isn't about you. (Although WMAP data may, superficially, suggest you are at the centre of the universe, this turns out to be a frame of reference situation.) This is considerably more important than about you winning or losing an argument.
    I had to think back to a possible story that elicited my post. I know it is not about me, but since the forum has agreed that the survivors could play a role in controlling the spread of Ebola I was going to try and spread the message, but at this stage all email addresses tried have not worked.
    Do you know an email address to someone within the UN? Could you share it via PM please if you do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    A case in the USA!
    "What you need to know about the Ebola outbreak"
    What you need to know about the Ebola outbreak - The Times of India
    This article covers the incidence rates.
    ON CNN today they were interviewing people from Texas and it appears the nurse did ask about travel and the man told them he had come back from Africa, yet they seemed to have missed the diagnosis at the first opportunity. They are emphasizing that some one botched up in this case.
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  68. #268  
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    Morpholino oligos targeting Ebola as a potential therapeutic: Experimental Drug Jams Ebola Gene To Fight The Virus : Shots - Health News : NPR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Morbidity and mortality weekly report! I've noted a lot less being reported about Ebola in the last week on CNN.
    And nothing at all about the flu, although it will almost certainly kill more people in the US than Ebola. The news reports on the more sensational topics; coverage is not proportional to degree of significance, danger or need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Moulton View Post
    Morpholino oligos targeting Ebola as a potential therapeutic: Experimental Drug Jams Ebola Gene To Fight The Virus : Shots - Health News : NPR
    Sounds interesting but potentially dangerous. It will require a lot of testing to be proven safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Sounds interesting but potentially dangerous. It will require a lot of testing to be proven safe.
    Initial work has been done. So far so good.

    Heald AE, Iversen PL, Saoud JB, Sazani P, Charleston JS, Axtelle T, Wong M, Smith WB, Vutikullird A, Kaye E. Safety and Pharmacokinetic Profiles of Phosphorodiamidate Morpholino Oligomers with Activity against Ebola Virus and Marburg Virus: Results of Two Single Ascending Dose Studies. Antimicrob Agents Chemother. 2014 Aug 25. pii: AAC.03442-14. [Epub ahead of print]

    Two identical single ascending dose (SAD) studies evaluated the safety and pharmacokinetics (PK) of AVI-6002 and AVI-6003, two experimental combinations of phosphorodiamidate morpholino oligomers with positive charges (PMOplus®) that target viral messenger RNA (mRNA) encoding Ebola virus and Marburg virus proteins, respectively. Both AVI-6002 and AVI-6003 were found to suppress disease in virus-infected nonhuman primates (NHPs) in previous studies. AVI-6002 (a combination of AVI-7537 and AVI-7539) or AVI-6003 (a combination of AVI-7287 and AVI-7288) were administered as sequential intravenous (IV) infusions of a 1:1 fixed dose ratio of the two subcomponents. In each study, 30 healthy male and female subjects between 18 and 50 years of age were enrolled in 6 dose escalation cohorts of 5 subjects each and received a single IV infusion of active study drug (0.005, 0.05, 0.5, 1.5, 3, and 4.5 mg/kg per component) or placebo in a 4:1 ratio. Both AVI-6002 and AVI-6003 were safe and well tolerated at the doses studied. A maximum tolerated dose (MTD) was not observed in either study. The four chemically similar PMOplus components exhibited generally similar PK profiles. The mean peak plasma concentration (Cmax) and area under the concentration curve (AUC) values of the four components exhibited dose-proportional PK. The estimated plasma half-life of all four components was 2 to 5 hours. The safety of the two combinations and the PK of the four components were similar, regardless of the target RNA sequence.

    Safety and Pharmacokinetic Profiles of Phosphorodiamidate Morpholino Oligomers with Activity against Ebola Virus and Marburg Virus: Results of Two Single Ascending Dose Studies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you know an email address to someone within the UN? Could you share it via PM please if you do?
    Bob, please don't try to outsmart me. It makes both of us look self indulgent.

    Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesman for the Secretary-General
    dujarric@un.org
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you know an email address to someone within the UN? Could you share it via PM please if you do?
    Bob, please don't try to outsmart me. It makes both of us look self indulgent.

    Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesman for the Secretary-General
    dujarric@un.org
    I wouldn't even think about it!

    Over 100 contacts with 1 Ebola patient in a few days. What was he?

    Emailed Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesman for the Secretary-General
    Hi Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesman for the Secretary-General,

    I was hoping to get a message through to someone involved with curtailing the Ebola outbreak, I have tried several avenues to no avail, but today a moderator on the Science Forum has shared your email address with me.

    Please could you pass my message on to someone, thank you.

    Stephane's reply:
    I will see what I can do.

    best
    stephane


    Thanks John. I still think of you as a moderator.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; October 2nd, 2014 at 04:31 PM. Reason: emails
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    Dude, we had a case of Ebola here in Dallas. People are freaking. Possible Ebola contacts now up to 80 | Dallas | News from Fort Worth, Dallas, Arlington,...
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, we had a case of Ebola here in Dallas. People are freaking. Possible Ebola contacts now up to 80 | Dallas | News from Fort Worth, Dallas, Arlington,...
    Interesting that Gov. Rick Perry is concurring with science at this point as opposed to some of his usual denialism.
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, we had a case of Ebola here in Dallas. People are freaking. Possible Ebola contacts now up to 80 | Dallas | News from Fort Worth, Dallas, Arlington,...
    Interesting that Gov. Rick Perry is concurring with science at this point as opposed to some of his usual denialism.
    I would like to see the notes made when the patient attended the clinic the first time. Was it recorded he had been in contact with a sick patient in Liberia?
    How come he didn't mention that? Or did he?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; October 2nd, 2014 at 06:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would like to see the notes made when the patient attended the clinic the first time. Was it recorded he had been in contact with a sick patient in Liberia?
    How come he didn't mention that? Or did he?
    He said he had been in Liberia. The information didn't make it from the triage nurse to the doctor doing the eval.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I would like to see the notes made when the patient attended the clinic the first time. Was it recorded he had been in contact with a sick patient in Liberia?
    How come he didn't mention that? Or did he?
    He said he had been in Liberia. The information didn't make it from the triage nurse to the doctor doing the eval.
    Is that a matter of highlighting it then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Is that a matter of highlighting it then?
    I think it's just a matter of the nurse actually telling the doctor doing the eval (and/or noting it on admission paperwork.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Is that a matter of highlighting it then?
    I think it's just a matter of the nurse actually telling the doctor doing the eval (and/or noting it on admission paperwork.)
    That is why I'd like to see what was written on the admission paperwork.
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    I think this fact is very important in this case, if he lied at the airport how do we know he told the truth at the hospital?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/03/us...acts.html?_r=0
    Mr. Kesselly said that Mr. Duncan, who was screened before boarding and did not have a fever, answered “no” to a question about whether he had had contact with any person who might have been stricken with Ebola in the past 21 days. That is the maximum period of incubation for Ebola.In fact, four days earlier, Mr. Duncan helped take a young woman, who was critically ill with Ebola, to a hospital. After she was turned away, he carried her from a taxi back to her home, where she soon died, according to the woman’s relatives and neighbors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I think this fact is very important in this case, if he lied at the airport how do we know he told the truth at the hospital?
    We don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I think this fact is very important in this case, if he lied at the airport how do we know he told the truth at the hospital?
    We don't.
    We will when they release his file. Can the FBI or someone demand to see his file?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I wouldn't even think about it!

    Over 100 contacts with 1 Ebola patient in a few days. What was he?

    Emailed Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesman for the Secretary-General
    Hi Stéphane Dujarric, Spokesman for the Secretary-General,

    I was hoping to get a message through to someone involved with curtailing the Ebola outbreak, I have tried several avenues to no avail, but today a moderator on the Science Forum has shared your email address with me.

    Please could you pass my message on to someone, thank you.

    Stephane's reply:
    I will see what I can do.

    best
    stephane
    That is amazing!

    Not only does Stéphane Dujarric de la Rivière have terrible grammar all of a sudden, but he apparently cannot even type his own name correctly, and not only that, he has suddenly stopped responding by signing off with his full title as he is meant to as his position demands it.

    You should know that fraud and impersonating another person is illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    ....You should know that fraud and impersonating another person is illegal.
    Of course and my belief in a Higher Power forbids me to tell lies. I hope John Galt thinks my post was truthful, for it was John that gave me the UN email address and he maybe able to recognize Stephane's style. I'm working from a position of trust. I trust John that the email is genuine and Stephane to pass the information on.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; October 3rd, 2014 at 02:56 AM.
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    Bob, I don't know anyone at the United Nations. I do, however, know how to use google - a skill that apparently you lack - it took me me less than two minutes to locate the email address for you. Please, in any future contact you may have with the UN, do not mention the 'Science Forum and most assuredly do not mention my "name". These people have a job to do. Answering emails from .....persons.....in the community is distracting them from that work. Please cease and desist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Bob, I don't know anyone at the United Nations. I do, however, know how to use google - a skill that apparently you lack - it took me me less than two minutes to locate the email address for you. Please, in any future contact you may have with the UN, do not mention the 'Science Forum and most assuredly do not mention my "name". These people have a job to do. Answering emails from .....persons.....in the community is distracting them from that work. Please cease and desist.
    Maybe you should have told me that before then. It is a bit late now. For all I know all the people in the UN could be reading the thread this very moment, that bit is totally out of my control.
    I won't need to use your name in the future but "The Science Forum" is rather public isn't it? What authority do you have to tell me not to mention it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Bob, I don't know anyone at the United Nations. I do, however, know how to use google - a skill that apparently you lack - it took me me less than two minutes to locate the email address for you. Please, in any future contact you may have with the UN, do not mention the 'Science Forum and most assuredly do not mention my "name". These people have a job to do. Answering emails from .....persons.....in the community is distracting them from that work. Please cease and desist.
    It is how he trolls. He pulls these kind of stunts all the time. He didn't email anyone. His supposed copy and paste should clearly show that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1
    Of course and my belief in a Higher Power forbids me to tell lies. I hope John Galt thinks my post was truthful, for it was John that gave me the UN email address and he maybe able to recognize Stephane's style. I'm working from a position of trust. I trust John that the email is genuine and Stephane to pass the information on.
    Having seen you be dishonest and lie so many times, understand that this actually happened in real life.

    We will when they release his file. Can the FBI or someone demand to see his file?
    It is a private medical file. It is not a federal case.

    Does that answer the question for you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    ...(crap removed) ...
    We will when they release his file. Can the FBI or someone demand to see his file?
    It is a private medical file. It is not a federal case.

    Does that answer the question for you?
    Maybe there will be such a public outcry that they make an exception.
    Getting served with a subpoena has got to rank among the scariest things a doctor can face. But don't let your fear prompt you to violate patient confidentiality. In New Jersey, an appellate court has ruled that doctors can be held liable for disclosing medical records in response to a subpoena without the patient's consent. - See more at: http://medicaleconomics.modernmedici....ENUXMrlz.dpuf
    So with patient consent the records can be released.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; October 3rd, 2014 at 05:35 AM.
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    So, Ebola is now in the US, courtesy of not quarantining travelers from West Africa. I predicted that earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Dude, we had a case of Ebola here in Dallas. People are freaking. Possible Ebola contacts now up to 80 | Dallas | News from Fort Worth, Dallas, Arlington,...
    Yep, this is what happens when you have an administration that can't or won't take the right steps to protects its citizens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    So, Ebola is now in the US, courtesy of not quarantining travelers from West Africa. I predicted that earlier.
    What is dawning on me is that the guy didn't even take steps to protect his own family.
    He wasn't infectious while he was traveling but once he arrived he should have locked himself in a bedroom and stayed there till the 20 days were up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What is dawning on me is that the guy didn't even take steps to protect his own family.
    He wasn't infectious while he was traveling but once he arrived he should have locked himself in a bedroom and stayed there till the 20 days were up.
    Hanlon's Razor probably applies here as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What is dawning on me is that the guy didn't even take steps to protect his own family.
    He wasn't infectious while he was traveling but once he arrived he should have locked himself in a bedroom and stayed there till the 20 days were up.
    Hanlon's Razor probably applies here as well.
    I can't recall ever discussing Hanlon's Razor before but a quick check of Google and Wikipedia it appears it was used by Einstein.
    "Heinlein's Razor" has since been defined as variations on Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice. This quotation is attributed to Albert Einstein in Peter W. Singer's 2009 book Wired for War.
    There are those that a forced to keep secrets too, and then your web gets really tangled.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I can't recall ever discussing Hanlon's Razor before . . ..
    Sorry, it means "incompetence or incapacity is more often the reason for X than malice."
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I can't recall ever discussing Hanlon's Razor before . . ..
    Sorry, it means "incompetence or incapacity is more often the reason for X than malice."
    They didn't seem stupid to me. He was gambling when the odds weren't in his favor. I suppose that shows incompetence, but a when you lose at gambling do you ever put it down to incompetence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I suppose that shows incompetence, but a when you lose at gambling do you ever put it down to incompetence?
    Losing at gambling is not incompetence. Thinking you can win (on average) at Vegas casinos is incompetence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What is dawning on me is that the guy didn't even take steps to protect his own family.
    He wasn't infectious while he was traveling but once he arrived he should have locked himself in a bedroom and stayed there till the 20 days were up.
    No, instead he did the right thing and went to the hospital the moment the first symptoms (fever and abdominal pain) appeared, told the medical staff where he was from and was sent home with anti-biotics as though he wasn't a risk.

    In that time, he was apparently sick in bed. Two days later, when his condition worsened, they called the ambulance and his nephew contacted the CDC to report that he thought his uncle may have had ebola and that the local hospital weren't doing what they were meant to. They then told him to contact the health department in Texas, who then got the ball rolling on isolating him when he got to the hospital.

    Meanwhile, the authorities in Texas have forced the family he was living with to remain in their apartment where he had been staying in and had fallen ill in, with all of the contaminated bedding, towels, clothes still in there with them , for days before the health department in the State could find someone to go in and clean it and make it safe and find somewhere secure where they could be quarantined. Not only was the family at risk with him being in the house, but with having to handle his infectious and dangerous laundry themselves instead of having professionals immediately go in and disinfect and clean the apartment to reduce the risk of infection, also further increased their risk of contracting the disease. While they have now been moved, having them stay in the apartment for any length of time without it being decontaminated was insanely risky and frankly, stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What is dawning on me is that the guy didn't even take steps to protect his own family.
    He wasn't infectious while he was traveling but once he arrived he should have locked himself in a bedroom and stayed there till the 20 days were up.
    No, instead he did the right thing and went to the hospital the moment the first symptoms (fever and abdominal pain) appeared, told the medical staff where he was from and was sent home with anti-biotics as though he wasn't a risk.

    In that time, he was apparently sick in bed. Two days later, when his condition worsened, they called the ambulance and his nephew contacted the CDC to report that he thought his uncle may have had ebola and that the local hospital weren't doing what they were meant to. They then told him to contact the health department in Texas, who then got the ball rolling on isolating him when he got to the hospital.

    Meanwhile, the authorities in Texas have forced the family he was living with to remain in their apartment where he had been staying in and had fallen ill in, with all of the contaminated bedding, towels, clothes still in there with them , for days before the health department in the State could find someone to go in and clean it and make it safe and find somewhere secure where they could be quarantined. Not only was the family at risk with him being in the house, but with having to handle his infectious and dangerous laundry themselves instead of having professionals immediately go in and disinfect and clean the apartment to reduce the risk of infection, also further increased their risk of contracting the disease. While they have now been moved, having them stay in the apartment for any length of time without it being decontaminated was insanely risky and frankly, stupid.
    While that is a good summary of what happened I still maintain he should have immediately told his family to have no contact with him till the 20 days were up.
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    Here is some interesting reading, just how much did Duncan really know???
    Dallas officials say they had to order Ebola family to stay home - LA Times
    Meanwhile, new details and questions continued to emerge about Duncan’s time in Africa and how he was exposed to Ebola.A young pregnant woman in Paynesville, Liberia, is believed to be the Ebola contact who infected Duncan.
    Duncan was in direct contact with Marthalene Williams, 19, who died Sept. 16. The day before, Duncan helped the family in a fruitless search for medical treatment for the sick woman.
    Williams’ parents, Amie and Emmanuel Williams, left home early Thursday to seek medical treatment a day after their son and a neighbor died.
    Binyah Kessely from the Liberian Airport Authority told the Associated Press on Thursday that Duncan would be prosecuted on his return to Liberia for making a false declaration on his airport form.
    However, Steve Jackson, spokesman for the Justice Ministry, told the Los Angeles Times he knew of no plans to prosecute Duncan and said the solicitor general would make any decision on the matter.
    The form requires people to state whether they touched or treated an Ebola patient, and Duncan denied having done so.
    Duncan's neighbors said no one in the area knew that Marthalene Williams had died of the virus, and people believed she died of pregnancy complications.
    With so many dying around him surely he should have suspected Ebola. Was he escaping for his own life? If he did he should have warned his family. I have yet to see anyone else mention this yet.

    Here's what another report says
    An official at the hospital where Duncan is being treated said the patient had told a nurse at his first exam on September 26 that he had recently travelled to Africa, which, coupled with his symptoms, should have immediately prompted the hospital to consider Ebola.

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/world/us-came...#ixzz3F8tVuYzB
    Now Africa is a big place and only a small area of it is affected with Ebola. Did he tell the nurse which part of Africa he'd come from???
    Did he tell them that people were dying like flies around him?
    Another report says he said Liberia:
    http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/01/ho...spite-warning/
    A nurse did ask Duncan during his first visit whether he had been in a part of West Africa affected by the Ebola outbreak, and Duncan confirmed that he just come from Liberia. But that “information was not fully communicated throughout the whole team,” Dr. Mark Lester told The AP.
    Show us the notes please.
    You can just about see this happening:
    Nurse: "Have you been in a part of West Africa affected by the Ebola outbreak," Here the Nurse doesn't say she knows the countries affected by Ebola and really expects a "yes" or "no" answer.
    Duncan: "I've just come from Liberia" That means nothing to the nurse for she's never been to Africa.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; October 3rd, 2014 at 11:33 PM.
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