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Thread: Ebola Virus - What should you do?

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    I suggest that you re-read my posts in light of the above explanation. I do not see anything ambiguous in my writing, I do see twisting of my words. Could this be because I dared to criticize the obama administration for being inept and missing the most basic step in case of an epidemic in order to protect the US citizens?
    No, it's because you posted nonsensical claims.
    Quarantining is not nonsensical, it is the most basic step in containing an epidemic.




    Is this just the standard "I hate Obama" thing? If so, wrong forum.
    Not at all, just pointing out the incompetence of the approach. I knew it will rile the people that cannot accept any criticism, I am not attacking the man, I am attacking the inept policy. Get the difference?



    Let me be crystal clear, such there is no possibility of further twisting my words: the administration took a lot of very good steps in helping contain the epidemic and helping the victims. I applaud this. The administration did not do enough to protect the people of the US.
    If you are now changing your claim to "they did not do enough to protect the people of the US" OK. What should they have done?
    I am not changing anything, this is what I said from the beginning.
    I already explained that, you seem to forget very quickly what you read:

    1. Quarantine the incoming travelers until they are deemed virus free. The incubation being 21 days, make the quarantine 30 days, to be sure.
    2. Do not send any troops to West Africa, it is bad enough that the doctors, nurses, who know much more about protection still get infected. You cannot expect the soldiers not to get infected. Stop putting US citizens at risk. Use the local armies, they are much bigger than the 3000 contingent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post

    Combined with your last emphatic statement all I see is concern for the welfare of the people of the US. I see no evidence of any concern, at all, for the plight of the peoples of West Africa. .
    My posts ARE about the criticism of the inept handling by the Obama administration and about the concern for the people of the US being put at risk by these inept decisions.
    You and billvon seem more interested in twisting my posts to be about what I did NOT say. What I did NOT say is "just don't fly there and let them die". Nor did I say "we will leave you to die". My not saying something doesn't mean saying what your imagination fills in. Get that?
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    And yet you bypass the opportunity to say, "of course I give a damn about the victims of the outbreak in West Africa, but I want to focus on what I consider to be inept handling by the Obama administration". So you continue to give the impression that you really don't give a damn about them. And if that is not your intent, then your communication skills are letting you down. Get it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    Quarantining is not nonsensical, it is the most basic step in containing an epidemic.
    I agree, and it has been done.
    Ebola Quarantine Ordered for Relief Workers Returning to North Carolina

    13 Aug 2014

    Reuters

    Health officials in North Carolina said on Sunday they will require missionaries and others coming home after working with people infected with Ebola in Africa to be placed in quarantine.

    The quarantine is set to last for three weeks from the last exposure to someone infected in the West African Ebola outbreak, which is centred in Guinea, Sierra Leone and Liberia, the officials said.



    Read more: Ebola Quarantine Ordered for Relief Workers Returning to North Carolina | Restoring Liberty
    Is this just the standard "I hate Obama" thing? If so, wrong forum.
    Not at all, just pointing out the incompetence of the approach.
    Good to hear. And now that you know that people returning from the infectious area HAVE in fact been quarantined, you have a better view of what's happening.

    1. Quarantine the incoming travelers until they are deemed virus free. The incubation being 21 days, make the quarantine 30 days, to be sure.
    Agreed - and that is what is being done. (21 days instead of 30, but I am willing to go with the WHO on this one, especially since they are not relying on just seeing symptoms.)

    2. Do not send any troops to West Africa, it is bad enough that the doctors, nurses, who know much more about protection still get infected. You cannot expect the soldiers not to get infected. Stop putting US citizens at risk. Use the local armies, they are much bigger than the 3000 contingent.
    It is the job of US soldiers to put themselves in harm's way to protect the USA. Stopping this outbreak rapidly is the best way to protect the USA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    It is the job of US soldiers to put themselves in harm's way to protect the USA. Stopping this outbreak rapidly is the best way to protect the USA.
    I did rather think that when one enlisted that that was exactly what was signing up for. Highly commendable action on behalf of ones fellow citizens and one hopes that anyone who does enlist realises that politicians will sometimes make misjudgements that will cost them their lives. But to suggest that a country not deploy troops because they might get killed sounds rather foolish.
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  6. #106  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I did rather think that when one enlisted that that was exactly what was signing up for. Highly commendable action on behalf of ones fellow citizens and one hopes that anyone who does enlist realises that politicians will sometimes make misjudgements that will cost them their lives.
    Indeed. And I have to say it's refreshing to hear US troops being sent to a place to save lives rather than take them. Especially since it is a win-win situation; we stop it in Liberia and it never gets to the US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    And yet you bypass the opportunity to say, "of course I give a damn about the victims of the outbreak in West Africa, but I want to focus on what I consider to be inept handling by the Obama administration". So you continue to give the impression that you really don't give a damn about them.
    I already said that. Get it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    Quarantining is not nonsensical, it is the most basic step in containing an epidemic.
    I agree, and it has been done.
    Ebola Quarantine Ordered for Relief Workers Returning to North Carolina


    13 Aug 2014

    Reuters

    Health officials in North Carolina said on Sunday they will require missionaries and others coming home after working with people infected with Ebola in Africa to be placed in quarantine.

    The quarantine is set to last for three weeks from the last exposure to someone infected in the West African Ebola outbreak, which is centred in Guinea, Sierra Leone and Liberia, the officials said.



    Read more: Ebola Quarantine Ordered for Relief Workers Returning to North Carolina | Restoring Liberty
    Err, I am talking about quarantining the travelers originating from West Africa, not only the returning medical staff. #0 posts and you still don't get it.






    2. Do not send any troops to West Africa, it is bad enough that the doctors, nurses, who know much more about protection still get infected. You cannot expect the soldiers not to get infected. Stop putting US citizens at risk. Use the local armies, they are much bigger than the 3000 contingent.
    It is the job of US soldiers to put themselves in harm's way to protect the USA. Stopping this outbreak rapidly is the best way to protect the USA.
    It is the job of the administration NOT to put our troops in the harm's way. I already explained that the respective countries have a lot more soldiers available for this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    It is the job of US soldiers to put themselves in harm's way to protect the USA. Stopping this outbreak rapidly is the best way to protect the USA.
    I did rather think that when one enlisted that that was exactly what was signing up for.
    Well, this is exactly what I did when I enlisted.

    Highly commendable action on behalf of ones fellow citizens and one hopes that anyone who does enlist realises that politicians will sometimes make misjudgements that will cost them their lives.
    ....which is precisely why I am criticizing the current administration.


    But to suggest that a country not deploy troops because they might get killed sounds rather foolish.
    Personal attacks do not form a valid form of argument, you of all people should know that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    It is the job of the administration NOT to put our troops in the harm's way. I already explained that the respective countries have a lot more soldiers available for this.
    I can never tell on the Internet. Is that a joke? The president is the commander and chief of the military, and it is his job to put the military in harm's way to protect the US. If he did not do so, there would be good grounds for removal from office via impeachment, since he would not be doing a critical part of his job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    It is the job of the administration NOT to put our troops in the harm's way. I already explained that the respective countries have a lot more soldiers available for this.
    I can never tell on the Internet. Is that a joke? The president is the commander and chief of the military, and it is his job to put the military in harm's way to protect the US. If he did not do so, there would be good grounds for removal from office via impeachment, since he would not be doing a critical part of his job.
    Yes, it would be a good reason for impeachment. We agree on that.
    It doesn't have to come to this, perhaps the administration can realize the errors made and correct them in time. This is a lot more important to the people of US than idle talk about impeachment. Very simple:

    1. add quarantine for all inbound passengers from infected countries
    2. do not deploy soldiers, deploy medical staff only
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  12. #112  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    It is the job of the administration NOT to put our troops in the harm's way. I already explained that the respective countries have a lot more soldiers available for this.
    I can never tell on the Internet. Is that a joke? The president is the commander and chief of the military, and it is his job to put the military in harm's way to protect the US. If he did not do so, there would be good grounds for removal from office via impeachment, since he would not be doing a critical part of his job.
    Yes, it would be a good reason for impeachment. We agree on that.
    It doesn't have to come to this, perhaps the administration can realize the errors made and correct them in time. This is a lot more important to the people of US than idle talk about impeachment. Very simple:

    1. add quarantine for all inbound passengers from infected countries
    2. do not deploy soldiers, deploy medical staff only
    Just don't waste time for they are estimating the number of cases will be doubling every 3 weeks. "experts in Logistics" was the term I heard.
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  13. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    It doesn't have to come to this, perhaps the administration can realize the errors made and correct them in time. This is a lot more important to the people of US than idle talk about impeachment.
    Agreed, and since he is in fact using the troops, that risk is eliminated.
    1. add quarantine for all inbound passengers from infected countries
    Including the Philippines? Right now we are using voluntary screening by airline personnel, which seems to be working. If it fails then I would agree to a quarantine.
    2. do not deploy soldiers, deploy medical staff only
    We have deployed medical staff. We now need people to build hospitals, hangars, and distribution centers, and we need people to run the logistics side of things. Medical personnel are not trained to do this.

    We could, of course, hire contractors to do all this. Or we could use the US military, which trains regularly on how to do such things in the presence of biological agents, and who has centuries of experience in building mobile hospitals and handling logistics in foreign countries. And, unlike private contractors, have pledged to support and defend the US from foreign threats. And who operate under a rigid control structure that makes it easy for a superior to quarantine a soldier, no questions asked.

    Seems like a no-brainer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    It doesn't have to come to this, perhaps the administration can realize the errors made and correct them in time. This is a lot more important to the people of US than idle talk about impeachment.
    Agreed, and since he is in fact using the troops, that risk is eliminated.
    Which risk are you talking about? About his being impeached? This is all you care about?

    1. add quarantine for all inbound passengers from infected countries
    Including the Philippines? Right now we are using voluntary screening by airline personnel, which seems to be working. If it fails then I would agree to a quarantine.
    ALL the infected countries. Is that so hard to comprehend?

    2. do not deploy soldiers, deploy medical staff only
    We have deployed medical staff. We now need people to build hospitals, hangars, and distribution centers, and we need people to run the logistics side of things. Medical personnel are not trained to do this.
    Use the locals, they know their country, stop being arrogant in trying to run other people's countries. My niece is a medical doctor, she just returned from a one year stint in Liberia. The locals are quite competent in building, you do not need our soldiers to do building. While she was in Liberia, the medical facility (two days drive out of Monrovia) turned out to be a fortified compound protected by LIBERIAN soldiers and they did an excellent job. So, again, no need to deploy OUR soldiers, neither for building, nor for protection.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; September 17th, 2014 at 01:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    Personal attacks do not form a valid form of argument, you of all people should know that.
    I was attacking your foolish idea, not you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    Personal attacks do not form a valid form of argument, you of all people should know that.
    I was attacking your foolish idea, not you.
    That must be splitting hairs. So if we say "that is a stupid idea" that is OK but if we were to write "you are stupid" that is abusive.

    OK I'll accept that but it is a fine line but it only applies to the idea being discussed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That must be splitting hairs. So if we say "that is a stupid idea" that is OK but if we were to write "you are stupid" that is abusive.

    OK I'll accept that but it is a fine line but it only applies to the idea being discussed.
    It may seem like a fine line, but it is a solid one. Rob, you have posted lots of what I consider to be stupid ideas. I have no idea if you are stupid. I rather doubt it, based upon those occassions when the ideas you have put forward are not stupid. I shall continue to call those ideas stupid, but will not call you stupid.

    I could make, perhaps, a racist comment. It would be perfectly proper for you to say "that was racist". It would not be proper for you to accuse me of being a racist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post
    Personal attacks do not form a valid form of argument, you of all people should know that.
    I was attacking your foolish idea, not you.
    But you provided no proof, just an adjective. If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is a...duck, even Robittybob called you on it. Still not a valid argument, however you are trying to twist it. And twist you did, throughout this thread.
    Last edited by Howard Roark; September 17th, 2014 at 03:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That must be splitting hairs. So if we say "that is a stupid idea" that is OK but if we were to write "you are stupid" that is abusive.

    OK I'll accept that but it is a fine line but it only applies to the idea being discussed.
    It may seem like a fine line, but it is a solid one. Rob, you have posted lots of what I consider to be stupid ideas. I have no idea if you are stupid. I rather doubt it, based upon those occassions when the ideas you have put forward are not stupid. I shall continue to call those ideas stupid, but will not call you stupid.

    I could make, perhaps, a racist comment. It would be perfectly proper for you to say "that was racist". It would not be proper for you to accuse me of being a racist.
    OK well I don't think I'm stupid either but I do know my ideas can rattle people. So that makes for interesting discussions on the forum and it hones my debating skills. A period on the forum is a life changing experience. I have found the whole experience difficult but is has helped me relate to others much better.
    I want the forum to thrive, I think you know that, but it has to be a fair place, possibly forgiving at times too.

    I am thankful to Obama for trying to control Ebola, control it till more of the remedy becomes available.
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    This is what I'd like to see; the ones who have survived the disease going back in a treating the sick since they have the immunity and shouldn't need to worry so much.
    Less than a month after being released from the hospital following his recovery from the Ebola virus, Dr. Kent Brantly says he would like to return to to West Africa, "Lord willing."
    Ebola survivor Kent Brantly hopes to return to Africa, 'Lord willing' - LA Times
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 17th, 2014 at 07:31 PM.
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    Ray, pretend for a moment that I don't know anything about metallurgy, engineering, or physics, and just tell me what the hell is going on.
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    Seriously...I don't understand this crisis after reading all the news about it. Yes, I get that ebola is a nasty disease but it's relatively hard to catch since it's not airborne......yet. So is the drastic action from President Obama purely a humanitarian one (that's not cynicism on my part) or is their a real risk ala 28 Days Later or something like that for the human race?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scienceofdesign View Post
    Seriously...I don't understand this crisis after reading all the news about it. Yes, I get that ebola is a nasty disease but it's relatively hard to catch since it's not airborne......yet.
    Agreed. However, HIV is not transmissible via airborne vectors either - but that's certainly been a crisis. In other words, it's easy to avoid catching both, but within populations it still spreads.
    So is the drastic action from President Obama purely a humanitarian one (that's not cynicism on my part) or is their a real risk ala 28 Days Later or something like that for the human race?
    Nothing like "28 days." Likely not even as bad as HIV. So in a large sense it's a humanitarian effort. However, there is an element of self-interest as well; imagine if we could have stopped HIV dead in its tracks back in 1966, before it ever reached the US.

    As a good calibration point for people's fears, about 4,000,000 people a year die in the US due to respiratory infections. 7500 people a year die of AIDS every year. 500 people a year in the US die from flu or flu-like sicknesses. Zero die of Ebola.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scienceofdesign View Post
    Seriously...I don't understand this crisis after reading all the news about it. Yes, I get that ebola is a nasty disease but it's relatively hard to catch since it's not airborne......yet.
    Agreed. However, HIV is not transmissible via airborne vectors either - but that's certainly been a crisis. In other words, it's easy to avoid catching both, but within populations it still spreads.
    So is the drastic action from President Obama purely a humanitarian one (that's not cynicism on my part) or is their a real risk ala 28 Days Later or something like that for the human race?
    Nothing like "28 days." Likely not even as bad as HIV. So in a large sense it's a humanitarian effort. However, there is an element of self-interest as well; imagine if we could have stopped HIV dead in its tracks back in 1966, before it ever reached the US.

    As a good calibration point for people's fears, about 4,000,000 people a year die in the US due to respiratory infections. 7500 people a year die of AIDS every year. 500 people a year in the US die from flu or flu-like sicknesses. Zero die of Ebola.
    Those figures are surprising billvon, 4,000,000/500 = 8,000 So are we more than 8,000 times as likely to die from respiratory infections than the flu we get vaccinated for annually? On those figures is getting the flu vaccination worth it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Those figures are surprising billvon, 4,000,000/500 = 8,000 So are we more than 8,000 times as likely to die from respiratory infections than the flu we get vaccinated for annually? On those figures is getting the flu vaccination worth it?
    I get a vaccine because I don't want to get the flu, not because I don't want to die. (It also helps protect very young children and the very old who are often at greater risk from the flu.)

    But if you don't care if you get the flu, getting it might not be worth it for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Those figures are surprising billvon, 4,000,000/500 = 8,000 So are we more than 8,000 times as likely to die from respiratory infections than the flu we get vaccinated for annually? On those figures is getting the flu vaccination worth it?
    Bob, we had a conversation on another thread about silly, or perhaps it was stupid, comments.

    Do you think the ratio billvon quoted above would change if nobody took flu vaccinations?
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    Prevention focuses on avoiding contact with the viruses. The following precautions can help prevent infection and spread of Ebola and Marburg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Those figures are surprising billvon, 4,000,000/500 = 8,000 So are we more than 8,000 times as likely to die from respiratory infections than the flu we get vaccinated for annually? On those figures is getting the flu vaccination worth it?
    Bob, we had a conversation on another thread about silly, or perhaps it was stupid, comments.

    Do you think the ratio billvon quoted above would change if nobody took flu vaccinations?
    I was surprised at how few Billvon quotes as dying from the flu. It seems rather low doesn't it? Where did those figures come from?

    Strangely I don't remember any recent conversation - sorry.
    This article from the CDC put the number much higher.
    How many people die from seasonal flu each year in the United States?

    The number of seasonal influenza-associated (i.e., seasonal flu-related) deaths varies from year to year because flu seasons are unpredictable and often fluctuate in length and severity. Therefore, a single estimate cannot be used to summarize influenza-associated deaths. Instead, a range of estimated deaths is a better way to represent the variability and unpredictability of flu. An August 27, 2010 MMWR report entitled “Thompson MG et al. Updated Estimates of Mortality Associated with Seasonal Influenza through the 2006-2007 Influenza Season. MMWR 2010; 59(33): 1057-1062.," provides updated estimates of the range of flu-associated deaths that occurred in the United States during the three decades prior to 2007. CDC estimates that from the 1976-1977 season to the 2006-2007 flu season, flu-associated deaths ranged from a low of about 3,000 to a high of about 49,000 people. Death certificate data and weekly influenza virus surveillance information was used to estimate how many flu-related deaths occurred among people whose underlying cause of death was listed as respiratory or circulatory disease on their death certificate.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 18th, 2014 at 06:22 AM.
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    In 2010 there were 2,515,458 deaths in the US from all causes so Billvon's estimate that 4 million die from respiratory infections alone is bizarrely wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    In 2010 there were 2,515,458 deaths in the US from all causes so Billvon's estimate that 4 million die from respiratory infections alone is bizarrely wrong.
    He might have been taking the WHO number for respirartory disease worldwide instead of just for USA.
    WHO | Household air pollution and health

    However from the American Lung Association report for 2008 comes this
    ■ Every year almost 400,000 Americans die from lung disease—an age-adjusted death rate of 135.5 per 100,000.1
    http://www.lung.org/assets/documents...a/LDD_2008.pdf

    So it looks to me that Billvon likely misplaced a decimal point giving 4*10^6 instead of 4*10^3, or that he accidentally conflated the Lung Association number with the WHO number.

    I think Robbitybob was right to mention it, but it should not be taken as negating what Billvon was saying about risk evaluation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    In 2010 there were 2,515,458 deaths in the US from all causes so Billvon's estimate that 4 million die from respiratory infections alone is bizarrely wrong.
    Sorry, you are correct - I was using WHO numbers for that, which were worldwide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    In 2010 there were 2,515,458 deaths in the US from all causes so Billvon's estimate that 4 million die from respiratory infections alone is bizarrely wrong.
    Sorry, you are correct - I was using WHO numbers for that, which were worldwide.
    Could you do that original paragraph again then please.
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    You couldn't get it much worse than this or is this just the start of a massive panic?
    Fear of Ebola Drives Mob to Kill Officials

    Fear of Ebola Drives Mob to Kill Officials
    The bodies of eight officials and journalists who went to a remote village in Guinea to dispel rumors about the deadly Ebola outbreak gripping the region were discovered after a rock-hurling mob attacked the delegation, claiming that it had come to spread the illness ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    You couldn't get it much worse than this or is this just the start of a massive panic?
    Hopefully not. As usual, fear can do more damage than the problem itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scienceofdesign View Post
    Seriously...I don't understand this crisis after reading all the news about it. Yes, I get that ebola is a nasty disease but it's relatively hard to catch since it's not airborne......yet.
    Agreed. However, HIV is not transmissible via airborne vectors either - but that's certainly been a crisis. In other words, it's easy to avoid catching both, but within populations it still spreads.
    So is the drastic action from President Obama purely a humanitarian one (that's not cynicism on my part) or is their a real risk ala 28 Days Later or something like that for the human race?
    Nothing like "28 days." Likely not even as bad as HIV. So in a large sense it's a humanitarian effort. However, there is an element of self-interest as well; imagine if we could have stopped HIV dead in its tracks back in 1966, before it ever reached the US.

    As a good calibration point for people's fears, about 4,000,000 people a year die in the US due to respiratory infections. 7500 people a year die of AIDS every year. 500 people a year in the US die from flu or flu-like sicknesses. Zero die of Ebola.
    I was thinking it was a humanitarian crisis. Even so, according to the book "The Hot Zone", this disease actually mutated into an airborne variant, though is was harmless to human; only monkeys. Still, with all the infections, the virus has plenty of opportunity to test itself, possibly mutant again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scienceofdesign View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scienceofdesign View Post
    Seriously...I don't understand this crisis after reading all the news about it. Yes, I get that ebola is a nasty disease but it's relatively hard to catch since it's not airborne......yet.
    Agreed. However, HIV is not transmissible via airborne vectors either - but that's certainly been a crisis. In other words, it's easy to avoid catching both, but within populations it still spreads.
    So is the drastic action from President Obama purely a humanitarian one (that's not cynicism on my part) or is their a real risk ala 28 Days Later or something like that for the human race?
    Nothing like "28 days." Likely not even as bad as HIV. So in a large sense it's a humanitarian effort. However, there is an element of self-interest as well; imagine if we could have stopped HIV dead in its tracks back in 1966, before it ever reached the US.

    As a good calibration point for people's fears, about 4,000,000 people a year die in the US due to respiratory infections. 7500 people a year die of AIDS every year. 500 people a year in the US die from flu or flu-like sicknesses. Zero die of Ebola.
    I was thinking it was a humanitarian crisis. Even so, according to the book "The Hot Zone", this disease actually mutated into an airborne variant, though is was harmless to human; only monkeys. Still, with all the infections, the virus has plenty of opportunity to test itself, possibly mutant again.
    '"The Hot Zone" is that a work of fiction? Ebola in Liberia is a living nightmare.
    Hospitals padlocked, no help for any sick people. The health providers are now just looking after themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scienceofdesign View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scienceofdesign View Post
    Seriously...I don't understand this crisis after reading all the news about it. Yes, I get that ebola is a nasty disease but it's relatively hard to catch since it's not airborne......yet.
    Agreed. However, HIV is not transmissible via airborne vectors either - but that's certainly been a crisis. In other words, it's easy to avoid catching both, but within populations it still spreads.
    So is the drastic action from President Obama purely a humanitarian one (that's not cynicism on my part) or is their a real risk ala 28 Days Later or something like that for the human race?
    Nothing like "28 days." Likely not even as bad as HIV. So in a large sense it's a humanitarian effort. However, there is an element of self-interest as well; imagine if we could have stopped HIV dead in its tracks back in 1966, before it ever reached the US.

    As a good calibration point for people's fears, about 4,000,000 people a year die in the US due to respiratory infections. 7500 people a year die of AIDS every year. 500 people a year in the US die from flu or flu-like sicknesses. Zero die of Ebola.
    I was thinking it was a humanitarian crisis. Even so, according to the book "The Hot Zone", this disease actually mutated into an airborne variant, though is was harmless to human; only monkeys. Still, with all the infections, the virus has plenty of opportunity to test itself, possibly mutant again.
    '"The Hot Zone" is that a work of fiction?
    No, it's not. It would be good for you to read it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post

    No, it's not. It would be good for you to read it.
    Richard Preston writes it like it is fiction though and sensationalises it. It's a brilliant book, as is The Demon in the Freezer, which chronicles bio-terrorism and the risk of certain diseases being weaponised. My only critique of both is that he turns the subject matter into a thriller. Which is what adds to the appeal of both, to be honest. But I am not sure if that is a book I would recommend to anyone in the current climate with the ongoing outbreak of the disease in Eastern Africa at present.

    I think if anyone wants to understand the disease itself, then A Compendium of 40 Years of Epidemiological, Clinical, and Laboratory Studies edited by Jens H. Kuhn and Charles H. Calisher may be a better read, as it compiles all the research into the virus. Ebola and Marburg Viruses: Molecular and Cellular Biology edited by Hans-Dieter Klenk and Heinz Feldmann may be a better read. It's costly, but isn't as sensational as Preston's widely read thrillers..

    There are a lot of books on Ebola, I'd say go with ones that deals more with science and the facts, and isn't written with the intent of scaring the pants off people and causing a possible panic (especially if read now with the current outbreak).

    Don't get me wrong, The Hot Zone is one of my favourite books and has been since I read it back in 1996 or 97 or so.. Its opening chapters as it details the progression of the disease in Monet, who fell ill after visiting the bat caves, starting with what looks like mild flu, to the lurid description of that fateful flight and his vomiting blood in the sickbags and passing them onto the flight attendant, to his ultimate collapse and what was described as a bloody (literally) violent death in Nairobi a few hours later was designed to instill fear and terror. But with the current crisis in Africa, I'm not sure it's what I'd recommend right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark View Post

    No, it's not. It would be good for you to read it.
    Richard Preston writes it like it is fiction though and sensationalises it. It's a brilliant book, as is The Demon in the Freezer, which chronicles bio-terrorism and the risk of certain diseases being weaponised. My only critique of both is that he turns the subject matter into a thriller. Which is what adds to the appeal of both, to be honest. But I am not sure if that is a book I would recommend to anyone in the current climate with the ongoing outbreak of the disease in Eastern Africa at present.

    I think if anyone wants to understand the disease itself, then A Compendium of 40 Years of Epidemiological, Clinical, and Laboratory Studies edited by Jens H. Kuhn and Charles H. Calisher may be a better read, as it compiles all the research into the virus. Ebola and Marburg Viruses: Molecular and Cellular Biology edited by Hans-Dieter Klenk and Heinz Feldmann may be a better read. It's costly, but isn't as sensational as Preston's widely read thrillers..

    There are a lot of books on Ebola, I'd say go with ones that deals more with science and the facts, and isn't written with the intent of scaring the pants off people and causing a possible panic (especially if read now with the current outbreak).

    Don't get me wrong, The Hot Zone is one of my favourite books and has been since I read it back in 1996 or 97 or so.. Its opening chapters as it details the progression of the disease in Monet, who fell ill after visiting the bat caves, starting with what looks like mild flu, to the lurid description of that fateful flight and his vomiting blood in the sickbags and passing them onto the flight attendant, to his ultimate collapse and what was described as a bloody (literally) violent death in Nairobi a few hours later was designed to instill fear and terror. But with the current crisis in Africa, I'm not sure it's what I'd recommend right now.

    Why not? It tells you what to expect if you contract it. People need to be aware.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    ....
    Don't get me wrong, The Hot Zone is one of my favourite books and has been since I read it back in 1996 or 97 or so.. Its opening chapters as it details the progression of the disease in Monet, who fell ill after visiting the bat caves, starting with what looks like mild flu, to the lurid description of that fateful flight and his vomiting blood in the sickbags and passing them onto the flight attendant, to his ultimate collapse and what was described as a bloody (literally) violent death in Nairobi a few hours later was designed to instill fear and terror. But with the current crisis in Africa, I'm not sure it's what I'd recommend right now.
    Thanks, following the daily news reports of the Ebola Crisis is enough for me at the moment.

    I would like to see those who have recovered being trained as nurses for those who are now ill. Would that work?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Thanks, following the daily news reports of the Ebola Crisis is enough for me at the moment.

    I would like to see those who have recovered being trained as nurses for those who are now ill. Would that work?
    Well the few medical staff who have managed to recover from it (remember, it has a 90% mortality rate) may not want to do it again. It could very well be too traumatic. I wouldn't want to force them into it again. It is an exceptionally traumatic disease, especially for those around you trying to treat you. And with the knowledge that many of the leading doctors who have been battling against this and other outbreak also died from it in this current outbreak..

    The issue in many parts of infected countries in Africa is exacerbated by lack of containment and frankly, by a too slow response by the Governments of the countries involved. This current outbreak has been going on for a long time now and they have ignored WHO, MSF, and other medical organisations who have been there on the ground right from the start and who had been saying that this was going to get bigger if the Governments did not do something to try to contain it. It took them months to do anything. By the time it reached the bigger cities and they started to respond, it was already out of their control. With porous borders, and with relatives wanting to handle and help their sick relatives and the bodies of those who died, many contract it after contact with the dead and coming into contact with any of their contaminated clothing, bedding, etc.

    Then of course comes the fear factor, the rumours, disbelief that it is a problem, complacency, and scare campaigns against the facilities set up to try to handle this crisis (such as the storming of one facility where infected people were removed by their families and all equipment (from bedding, mattresses, etc) stolen (some walked off with bloodied mattresses) and medical equipment (masks, gloves, biohazard suits were slashed in the process)) - because the locals believed that they could cure them, etc, it will get worse. Thousands more will die and yes, the risk of it entering Western countries through travel and tourism will increase. While we can handle such infections, the potential danger cannot be lost on anyone. They quite literally need to shut down the borders. People leaving need to be quarantined and checked. People infected or who have come into contact need to be quarantined and cared for. And they need medical equipment to do this.

    The reaction to this is just that, a reaction. The cart left well before the horse and I suspect it will be a long time before the horse can catch up to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Thanks, following the daily news reports of the Ebola Crisis is enough for me at the moment.

    I would like to see those who have recovered being trained as nurses for those who are now ill. Would that work?
    Well the few medical staff who have managed to recover from it (remember, it has a 90% mortality rate) may not want to do it again. It could very well be too traumatic. I wouldn't want to force them into it again. It is an exceptionally traumatic disease, especially for those around you trying to treat you. And with the knowledge that many of the leading doctors who have been battling against this and other outbreak also died from it in this current outbreak..

    The issue in many parts of infected countries in Africa is exacerbated by lack of containment and frankly, by a too slow response by the Governments of the countries involved. This current outbreak has been going on for a long time now and they have ignored WHO, MSF, and other medical organisations who have been there on the ground right from the start and who had been saying that this was going to get bigger if the Governments did not do something to try to contain it. It took them months to do anything. By the time it reached the bigger cities and they started to respond, it was already out of their control. With porous borders, and with relatives wanting to handle and help their sick relatives and the bodies of those who died, many contract it after contact with the dead and coming into contact with any of their contaminated clothing, bedding, etc.

    Then of course comes the fear factor, the rumours, disbelief that it is a problem, complacency, and scare campaigns against the facilities set up to try to handle this crisis (such as the storming of one facility where infected people were removed by their families and all equipment (from bedding, mattresses, etc) stolen (some walked off with bloodied mattresses) and medical equipment (masks, gloves, biohazard suits were slashed in the process)) - because the locals believed that they could cure them, etc, it will get worse. Thousands more will die and yes, the risk of it entering Western countries through travel and tourism will increase. While we can handle such infections, the potential danger cannot be lost on anyone. They quite literally need to shut down the borders. People leaving need to be quarantined and checked. People infected or who have come into contact need to be quarantined and cared for. And they need medical equipment to do this.

    The reaction to this is just that, a reaction. The cart left well before the horse and I suspect it will be a long time before the horse can catch up to it.
    I don't disagree with many things you say there, but on one point only, it has been stated in the news that the current outbreak has a somewhat lower mortality rate, from memory it was something around the 60% mortality, so that means the other 40% could make ideal persons to handle infected cases, even just to work in the laundries and for basic care. Pay them a good rate and I'd imagine they would do the work. Can they get infected with the same strain twice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    . . .so that means the other 40% could make ideal persons to handle infected cases, even just to work in the laundries and for basic care. Pay them a good rate and I'd imagine they would do the work. Can they get infected with the same strain twice?
    That seems about as wise as only hiring doctors who have failed medical school.

    "Can't handle basic medical quarantine procedures? You're hired!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    . . .so that means the other 40% could make ideal persons to handle infected cases, even just to work in the laundries and for basic care. Pay them a good rate and I'd imagine they would do the work. Can they get infected with the same strain twice?
    That seems about as wise as only hiring doctors who have failed medical school.

    "Can't handle basic medical quarantine procedures? You're hired!"
    My suggestions are not always taken up quickly but to me it is the best I can suggest at the moment. They'd get training etc. Make them pass a test as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I don't disagree with many things you say there, but on one point only, it has been stated in the news that the current outbreak has a somewhat lower mortality rate, from memory it was something around the 60% mortality,
    Which may not be accurate.

    The Ebola virus that is causing the raging epidemic in West Africa is famously lethal. In previous outbreaks it has killed as many as 90% of the people it infects. That’s why the figures in World Health Organization’s (WHO’s) latest “Situation Report” look like they might be a rare glimmer of good news. Although the rate of infections is picking up speed at an alarming rate, the report says the fatality rate is 53% overall, ranging from 64% in Guinea to just 39% in Sierra Leone.


    But there’s a catch: The apparent low proportion of deaths probably depends more on the way health officials are calculating the number than on the deadliness of the virus—or the quality of care patients are receiving. Indeed, the dramatic increase in cases in recent weeks is one of the main reasons the reported death rate appears to be artificially low.


    There are several ways to calculate what officials call the “case fatality rate,” or CFR, of a disease outbreak. One of the simplest is to divide the number of deaths by the number of total cases. That is what WHO does in its recent CFR calculations.


    But that method doesn’t take into account that many living patients—recently diagnosed and very ill—will not survive. So it underestimates the death rate. And that effect is exaggerated when an outbreak is expanding quickly. The calculation also misses patients who were confirmed as Ebola cases, but then left the hospital before being discharged, says Andrew Rambaut, an evolutionary biologist who studies infectious disease at the University of Edinburgh in the United Kingdom. Many of those patients later died but are not counted in the death statistics.


    Another way to calculate the rate is to ignore current patients and count only patients who have officially recovered and been released from treatment or who are known to have died. Those numbers seem to paint a more sobering picture. According to the 7 September update from the Sierra Leone Ministry of Health and Sanitation, 268 patients have been treated and released, and 426 confirmed Ebola cases have died. Those numbers suggest a 61% fatality rate. But that isn’t completely accurate either, notes Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston: Survivors may have longer average hospital stays than patients who die. That would lead to a CFR that is artificially high.


    A more accurate way to calculate the rate is to compare the outcomes in patients who were infected around the same time and wait long enough until all have either recovered or died. Rambaut notes that there were 23 survivors among the 77 patients included in a recent paper looking at the evolution of the virus. That’s a CFR of 70%.


    Christopher Dye, director of strategy for the WHO, says the organization is moving toward that method and is working to compile data for each patient recorded as a case. “We do need valid estimates,” Dye says. “We want to know if CFR is different in this epidemic from previous ones in central Africa, [and] whether different approaches to patient care in the current epidemic lead to different outcomes.”
    A few hours ago, the WHO placed the mortality rate at 70%. That will more than likely rise.

    This current strain is the Zaire strain, which can have a mortality rate of up to 90%.


    so that means the other 40% could make ideal persons to handle infected cases, even just to work in the laundries and for basic care.
    You think getting people who just survived one of the deadliest and infectious diseases of our time, should be made to work caring for those currently struggling and dying of the disease?

    I don't know if you are serious or joking.

    Do you have any idea of the level of training required to work with outbreaks like this? If exceptionally trained doctors and nurses are contracting the disease, even with all the care procedures in place, what do you think the risk of spreading the disease further would be if you had untrained and unqualified people doing it? Even the disposal of bodies has to be done by people who are trained to handle those bodies. There is no laundries. The mattresses, sheets and everything inbetween is often burned, because it may not be useable again.

    Pay them a good rate and I'd imagine they would do the work.
    Why? Because they are poor? Anything for the money? Just so long as trained Westerner's don't have to do it?

    Are you mad?


    Can they get infected with the same strain twice?
    No one knows because it is more than likely that no one has lived to talk about it.

    Could they have developed immunities? Perhaps. But I doubt anyone in their right mind would force them or make them risk their lives again, to test it, regardless of how much money they could be offered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    My suggestions are not always taken up quickly but to me it is the best I can suggest at the moment. They'd get training etc. Make them pass a test as well.
    Make them pass a test after some training? If specialist medical professionals are having to undergo days of intensive training, how long do you think the training for a villager, possibly an illiterate villager will be for them to be qualified enough to provide even nursing care to someone suffering from ebola?

    Are you trolling? Because that has to be a troll..

    It's akin to my saying I can pilot a helicopter because I flew my son's remote control helicopter in the backyard.
    Last edited by Tranquille; September 23rd, 2014 at 03:32 AM.
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    @Tranquille - did you read the post or see on the news that there is no one around to treat the sick at moment, and you call my suggestion "mad". Right O, what is your brilliant solution?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    @Tranquille - did you read the post or see on the news that there is no one around to treat the sick at moment, and you call my suggestion "mad".
    I call your suggestion mad because it is mad. To suggest that we force survivors of this disease to become nurses to those who are currently dying from it, disregarding the extensive training even experts have to go through to learn how to work under these conditions and with such an infectious disease. I don't know if you are simply that cruel and heartless (to the survivors and those currently ill) or whether you actually think becoming a nurse takes just a few courses and passing a test..

    From just the MSF:

    MSF currently employs 239 international and 2,000 locally hired staff in the region. The organization operates five Ebola management centers, providing a total of 502 hospital beds in isolation.
    And that is not even looking at Africare, WHO, Catholic Relief Services, Samaritans Purse, the CDC, along with various other organisations who have sent medical experts from around the world.

    Hardly "no one around".

    Right O, what is your brilliant solution?
    Continue with sending trained professionals. Countries around the world have been doing so for a while now, not to mention experts from hospitals around the world. You know, trained professionals. Not giving survivors a few courses and telling them to get on with now treating and caring for people with a highly infectious and contagious disease, a move which could very well see the epidemic spread further and become even more deadly.

    Your suggestion is ridiculous in the extreme, not to mention downright offensive. The very notion that if they are paid enough, they would do it, as you tried to argue, when dealing with patients who are poverty stricken, not to mention possibly uneducated shows a complete lack of understanding, care, empathy or sense and that is what makes it so offensive.
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    Bob, your suggestion is impractical, for the reasons carefully presented by Tranquille. If you take a moment to reflect on it, dispassionately, I think you should be able to recognise this for yourself. If you felt the need to defend your argument of using unqualified survivors to administer to sick, I would feel the need to put on my moderator hat.
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    So your fabulous suggestion was just more of the same. Something that is obviously not working.
    At the moment people who are very sick are having to be looked after by their own families, and who knows they could just be abandoned by their own.
    Some of your objections show some of the difficulties but I don't take your view that they are insurmountable.
    There were suggestions they were going to harvest blood from the survivors. OK that might also work but why not let them do the other, of becoming assistants in the fight.

    Let's see if it happens by their own initiative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Bob, your suggestion is impractical, for the reasons carefully presented by Tranquille. If you take a moment to reflect on it, dispassionately, I think you should be able to recognise this for yourself. If you felt the need to defend your argument of using unqualified survivors to administer to sick, I would feel the need to put on my moderator hat.
    Not written in green as yet. Why turn every thing I say into some sort of emotional wickedness.
    Do you think I am that stupid to propose a cruel solution? But it is easy to say it is.
    They were not going to be untrained for the roles they played. They would get training and skills desperately needed, and without the risk for they already have the immunity against the virus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Not written in green as yet.
    Because I had some hopes, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, that you were smart enough to take a piece of gently administered advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Why turn every thing I say into some sort of emotional wickedness.
    You are addressing my post. Therefore, now identify where in my post I make any reference to emotional wickedness. Indeed, I make a point of emphasising that Tranquille has detailed the impracticality of your proposals. If I thought there was a possibility of callousness on your part I would have addressed that also. The only reasons I can see why you would raise this are:
    1) Your thoughts are so disorganised you cannot respond to one person, or one item at a time.
    2) You did not bother to properly assimilate my post.
    3) You are deliberately trolling.

    I do not think it is the last item, so we are left with the first two, both of which are evidence of sloppiness on your part. I suggest you sharpen up if you wish to remain part of this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you think I am that stupid to propose a cruel solution?
    Cruelty does not require stupidity as a prerequisite.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    But it is easy to say it is.
    There are three possibilities for proposing and then continuing to defend a monumentally dumb idea.

    1) You are dumb.
    2) You are cruel.
    3) You are trolling.

    Perhaps Tranquille was trying to find the least offensive explanation for your behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    They were not going to be untrained for the roles they played. They would get training and skills desperately needed, and without the risk for they already have the immunity against the virus.
    Get real! Tranquille has explained in detail why this is a complete non-starter. If you are unable to see this, then I see little future for you on this forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    So your fabulous suggestion was just more of the same. Something that is obviously not working.
    I don't think you quite grasp the enormity of this disease or the dumbass insanity of what you are suggesting.

    At the moment people who are very sick are having to be looked after by their own families, and who knows they could just be abandoned by their own.
    The reason they are being looked after by their families is because as we have already seen, they do not trust the medical staff, do not believe Ebola is real or they believe it is a conspiracy against them, they are led to believe by their religious beliefs that they can be cured by their deity of choice, they are scared to seek help and any and/or all of the above. It is not because of a lack of medical care or staff. Far from it. Medical staff are being attacked by their relatives and they are being made to return home from the treatment facilities.
    Some of your objections show some of the difficulties but I don't take your view that they are insurmountable.
    I can assure you, your suggestion of offering poor and sick people lots of money to do the dirty work so that we don't have to do it should be insurmountable because it is downright offensive in every way imaginable.

    There were suggestions they were going to harvest blood from the survivors. OK that might also work but why not let them do the other, of becoming assistants in the fight.
    BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT TRAINED MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS WELL VERSED IN CARING FOR HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS PATIENTS WHO ARE SICK WITH A LEVEL 4 VIRUS.

    I don't quite know how to make that point any clearer.

    Let's see if it happens by their own initiative.
    By their own initiative? I take it your argument that just offer them some good money is an incentive to get them to act on their own initiative? I mean, they're just poor people, they'll do anything for money, right? The offer of money automatically removes 'their own initiative' and I find offering poor, sick and dying people more money to just look after their own and then call it their own initiative to be frankly obscene. It is no longer their initiative and the pressure these people are under financially and medically, would mean that they would be working by your initiatives.. It would force their hand. What kind of sick puppy are you to even suggest such a thing?

    At this point, I think you should be banned from participating in any scientific discussion on this site.

    You are an absolute disgrace of a human being.

    Yes, I know, I will probably be banned for calling you a disgrace and a dumbass. But enough is enough. You have gone too far! Frankly, take your suggestion of paying poor, sick and dying people people more money so that they do the dirty work and shove it up your backside you sick troll.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Not written in green as yet. Why turn every thing I say into some sort of emotional wickedness.
    Do you not read what you are posting?
    Do you think I am that stupid to propose a cruel solution?
    Do you really want me to answer that?

    But it is easy to say it is.
    Just as it was so easy for you to suggest offering poverty stricken sick people more money if they just look after their own.

    They were not going to be untrained for the roles they played. They would get training and skills desperately needed, and without the risk for they already have the immunity against the virus.
    Are they doctors and nurses? Have they received years of medical training and experience? Are they well versed and educated in how to deal with a highly contagious outbreak with a high mortality rate which can be transmitted by contact with any form of bodily fluid, even after the patient dies?

    The answer to all of those questions is no. Therefore, I find it spectacularly stupid that you could suggest such a thing as though it is the most natural thing in the world.

    We do not know if they are or will be immune to it. Viruses mutate quickly, a simple mutation could see the few survivors there are become re-infected with a different strain of the disease. The mere suggestion that offering them more money to care for their own would fix the problem, and placing them at further risk after they managed to beat it the first time is not just cruel, it is sick and deeply offensive. Just because they are poor does not mean we use them as guinea pigs and force them to risk their lives for money.
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    Moderator Comment: Tranquille, you recognise yourself that your outburst exceeds the acceptable standards on this forum. However, if I suspend you I would automatically have to suspend myself, as I am equally, or almost equally offended by the intransigent ignorance displayed by RobbityBob1. On another occassion I attempted to suspend myself for an infringement and found that the forum software does not permit this. Therefore I simply ask you to minimise future interaction with Bob. To assist with that I am locking this thread, but will entertain requests from other members to re-open it. (However, I think a new thread to discuss developments in the outbreak might be more appropriate.)

    Bob, I suggest you voluntarily absent yourself from the forum for three days, during which time you think long and hard about your foolishness on this thread, for one thing. And this writing is in green, so don't take the piss this time. My patience is now non-existent.
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    at the request of Tranquille, i tentatively re-open the thread, with the proviso that if John Galt disagrees with my actions or if future activities warrant it, it can be locked again
    however, i'm not in the habit of deleting posts from a thread, because this makes a mockery of what a forum is about - if you feel you have been foolish or over the top, maybe these posts will remind you of this in the future, and possibly hold your finger before you prematurely click the 'Post' button
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    I'm not a fan of Bob's but is his suggestion really so ridiculous? No one is "forcing" them to do anything. Yes they may be poverty stricken, but the idea is to give them a job, then they would be less so. Is that more cruel than asking them to make do without a job? They would be at risk, but so would anybody else doing the job, less so in fact because they are immune. Maybe they would be unqualified, but what qualifications are needed to do laundry, which is what Bob suggested. No need to over-react just because it's Bob's idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    At the moment people who are very sick are having to be looked after by their own families, and who knows they could just be abandoned by their own. . . .why not let them do the other, of becoming assistants in the fight.
    Let's see if it happens by their own initiative.
    It's already happening, unfortunately:
    =============================
    Armed men attack Liberia Ebola clinic, freeing patients

    Last Updated Aug 17, 2014 3:45 PM EDT

    MONROVIA, Liberia - Liberian officials fear Ebola could soon spread through the capital's largest slum after residents raided a quarantine center for suspected patients and took items including bloody sheets and mattresses.
    The violence in the West Point slum occurred late Saturday and was led by residents angry that patients were brought to the holding center from other parts of Monrovia, Tolbert Nyenswah, assistant health minister, said Sunday.
    Local witnesses told Agence France Presse that there were armed men among the group that attacked the clinic.
    "They broke down the doors and looted the place. The patients all fled," said Rebecca Wesseh, who witnessed the attack and whose report was confirmed by residents and the head of Health Workers Association of Liberian, George Williams.
    =============================

    These weren't just violent thugs, these were people who thought they knew best how to care for their friends and family. We need less of that, not more.

    They were not going to be untrained for the roles they played. They would get training and skills desperately needed . . . .
    From who? These are people who often can't speak English, can't read and write, don't know what a virus is and generally don't have access to running water. Could you teach someone like that to be a nurse in six months? Someone who doesn't even have the experience most of us have washing their hands?

    If we want to deal with this directly it will take a huge humanitarian effort, and most of it won't be caring for sick people - it will be building hospitals, providing basic supplies to people who are NOT yet sick, establishing the supply trains for the hospitals once they are built etc. The people who WILL directly care for sick people will be relatively few in number, and those people MUST be highly educated if they are to avoid infection themselves and more importantly avoid spreading the infection outside the hospital.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I'm not a fan of Bob's but is his suggestion really so ridiculous? No one is "forcing" them to do anything. Yes they may be poverty stricken, but the idea is to give them a job, then they would be less so. Is that more cruel than asking them to make do without a job? They would be at risk, but so would anybody else doing the job, less so in fact because they are immune. Maybe they would be unqualified, but what qualifications are needed to do laundry, which is what Bob suggested. No need to over-react just because it's Bob's idea.
    I'm going to take a break off the forum for a few days, but since your support was so welcome I'd just felt like saying thank you Harold, for you have definitely understood what I was saying. Best wishes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    At the moment people who are very sick are having to be looked after by their own families, and who knows they could just be abandoned by their own. . . .why not let them do the other, of becoming assistants in the fight.
    Let's see if it happens by their own initiative.
    It's already happening, unfortunately:
    =============================
    Armed men attack Liberia Ebola clinic, freeing patients



    Last Updated Aug 17, 2014 3:45 PM EDT

    MONROVIA, Liberia - Liberian officials fear Ebola could soon spread through the capital's largest slum after residents raided a quarantine center for suspected patients and took items including bloody sheets and mattresses.
    The violence in the West Point slum occurred late Saturday and was led by residents angry that patients were brought to the holding center from other parts of Monrovia, Tolbert Nyenswah, assistant health minister, said Sunday.
    Local witnesses told Agence France Presse that there were armed men among the group that attacked the clinic.
    "They broke down the doors and looted the place. The patients all fled," said Rebecca Wesseh, who witnessed the attack and whose report was confirmed by residents and the head of Health Workers Association of Liberian, George Williams.
    =============================

    These weren't just violent thugs, these were people who thought they knew best how to care for their friends and family. We need less of that, not more.

    They were not going to be untrained for the roles they played. They would get training and skills desperately needed . . . .
    From who? These are people who often can't speak English, can't read and write, don't know what a virus is and generally don't have access to running water. Could you teach someone like that to be a nurse in six months? Someone who doesn't even have the experience most of us have washing their hands?

    If we want to deal with this directly it will take a huge humanitarian effort, and most of it won't be caring for sick people - it will be building hospitals, providing basic supplies to people who are NOT yet sick, establishing the supply trains for the hospitals once they are built etc. The people who WILL directly care for sick people will be relatively few in number, and those people MUST be highly educated if they are to avoid infection themselves and more importantly avoid spreading the infection outside the hospital.
    I think your attitude is a bit paternalistic: the locals aren't capable of doing anything for themselves, they have to be kept in the dark, and foreigners have to come in and boss them around. Perhaps that sort of attitude contributes to the suspicions that you are describing.
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  60. #160  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I think your attitude is a bit paternalistic: the locals aren't capable of doing anything for themselves
    They clearly ARE capable of doing things for themselves, as the group that "freed" the patients in Liberia demonstrated.
    they have to be kept in the dark
    Not at all. I am all for education. However, experience has shown that education is not instant; it takes time to develop health care workers. In the short term, you are going to be a lot better off doing quick "what to do if someone you know is infected" and more importantly "what not to do" seminars. And by far the most important people to reach with that information are the people who have not yet been infected.
    and foreigners have to come in and boss them around.
    Again, not at all. Foreigners have to come in and build stuff, and then manage their own supply lines for that stuff. That's where most of our effort will go.

    If you want to build a teaching hospital as part of this whole effort, go for it, I'd support that. In a few years it might well produce some excellent local doctors and nurses, and help combat Ebola (as well as the myriad other diseases they are faced with.) But in terms of what we will do NOW to stop the spread of this disease that's not all that useful.

    In any case, let's say we build all those hospitals, train some excellent doctors and nurses. Great! When the next epidemic hits they will be better prepared. Some of those doctors and nurses, of course, will make mistakes, since not everyone is equally skilled at dealing with highly infectious diseases. It would be foolish in the extreme to then put those people - the ones who have proven they have problems dealing with infectious disease and quarantine - in charge of patient care.
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  61. #161  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I'm not a fan of Bob's but is his suggestion really so ridiculous? No one is "forcing" them to do anything. Yes they may be poverty stricken, but the idea is to give them a job, then they would be less so. Is that more cruel than asking them to make do without a job? They would be at risk, but so would anybody else doing the job, less so in fact because they are immune. Maybe they would be unqualified, but what qualifications are needed to do laundry, which is what Bob suggested. No need to over-react just because it's Bob's idea.
    Anybody else doing the job are highly trained professionals. They don't do laundry. The laundry is burned. So are all the mattresses and everything that was used to treat ebola patients. Even the people doing that are trained, usually the doctors and nurses themselves.

    It wasn't rejected because it was Bob's idea. It was rejected because the very thought of paying exceptionally poor people who survived one of the deadliest and worst diseases known to man, a lot of money just to put themselves and their families at risk and have them do highly dangerous work just so our people don't have to do it is offensive.

    The reason the trained professionals are the ones to do this kind of work is because they know how to decontaminate themselves and others and any equipment they are using to make sure they not only reduce the risks to themselves, but also to the general public.

    Bob's idea isn't about giving them a job. It is about getting some poor black folks to do deadly work and tempting them with money after they nearly died from the disease, so that Westerner's don't have to do it. Frankly, it is offensive.

    I think your attitude is a bit paternalistic: the locals aren't capable of doing anything for themselves, they have to be kept in the dark, and foreigners have to come in and boss them around. Perhaps that sort of attitude contributes to the suspicions that you are describing.
    You don't think having some rich white folks offering them some money to continue to risk their lives after they somehow or other managed to be the lucky few who survived, is paternalistic?

    They aren't kept in the dark. They lived the disease. To suggest they are kept in the dark after they managed to survive it is exceptionally short sighted.

    They aren't being bossed around. They are being treated by professionals who volunteer their time to help people in need. Do you know what the difference is?

    The attitude against the professionals, most of whom are from Africa and who are experts in the Ebola virus, is because they do not believe the disease exists. Do you want these people now treating others as "nurses" as Bob tried to say. They are also afraid. And they are also the reason why the disease has spread so badly. Burial practices, not taking their loved ones to hospital when they start showing symptoms, and everything in-between is why this disease has spread so rapidly.

    Bob's suggestion and your support of it is noted. However, lets just say that one day you develop cancer. You are taken to the hospital and you find that you are being treated and cared for by an orderly who is there because he also survived a cancer and has been "trained" to care for you after having been made to do a few training classes and passed a test. Let me know who you would prefer to be treating you. The orderly who took a few courses or trained doctors and nurses? What do you think the countries in East Africa need and deserve caring for people with Ebola? Untrained ebola survivors who are terrified of the disease, terrified enough to even try to leave treatment centers sometimes? Or trained doctors and nurses? See, Bob's idea stems from the belief that this is all these people need, that they do not deserve or need to have trained professionals to care for them, but you and he probably would. Thankfully, doctors and nurses and specialists volunteer in droves so that Bob's ridiculous idea does not come to fruition, meaning that more people can be saved. And why do the patients get to have trained professionals caring for them? Because that is what they need and deserve as human beings who are not expendable. They don't need a bunch of rich white folks offering them more money to try to tempt them into risking their lives with the disease again and risking the general public because they are not trained. It's not just a matter of washing laundry. Anything contaminated with the disease is burned. And no, you cannot get them to bury the dead either, as that has to be done by professionals since the majority of cases is spread by incorrect handling and handling of the bodies.

    Now do you understand why his suggestion was not just offensive, it is also ridiculous?

    Since his ridiculous argument has been put to bed for not only being ridiculous, but also deeply immoral (yes, immoral since just because they're poor black people does not mean they are expendable and should be placed at further risk after they managed to survive the disease the first time and the work is being done by trained professionals), how about we get the thread back on track and topic..

    Between 550,000 and 1.4 million people in West Africa could be infected with the Ebola virus by January 20, 2015, according to a report issued on Tuesday by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

    The top range of the estimate, 1.4 million, assumes that the number of cases officially cited so far, 5,864 according to the count kept by the World Health Organization, is significantly underreported, and that it is likely that 2.5 times as many cases, or nearly 20,000, have in fact occurred.

    CDC emphasized that the projections, based on an epidemiological model that takes into account how many people each Ebola patient eventually infects as well as other factors, is based on data available in August. They therefore do not account for the recently announced U.S. government Ebola relief effort, which includes sending 3,000 members of the armed forces to the Ebola-stricken region.

    "Extensive, immediate actions - such as those already started - can bring the epidemic to a tipping point to start a rapid decline in cases," CDC said in a statement. (Reporting by Sharon Begley; Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)
    The projections are terrifying. Frankly, I don't know if what the US, Cuba, China and the rest of the world Governments are now offering, along with the work of charities and medical organisations have been doing since the beginning of this epidemic, will be enough or if it will be too little too late.
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  62. #162  
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    This hardly news:
    What happens when you survive Ebola?
    Ebola treatment: Does drug offer hope? - CNN.com
    Doctors believe surviving Ebola leaves you immune to future infection. Scientists have found that people who survive Ebola have antibodies in their blood that would provide protection against that strain of the virus in the future, and possibly against other strains as well.
    They are beginning to use blood from survivors to treat cases, but this is dangerous as a lot of other diseases are around e.g. Viral hepatitis, HIV or malaria.

    Ebola patients buy survivors' blood from black market - CNN.com
    Ebola patients buying survivors' blood from black market, WHO warns
    .... But unlike their situation, patients in affected nations are getting blood through improper channels. The illicit trade can lead to the spread of other infections, including HIV and other blood-related ailments.
    And what guarantee there were the antibodies there in the blood that is purchased?
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    Well I'll be damned here is an article discussing the very idea I proposed yesterday, so I wonder what it says?
    Ebola emergency response: Are survivors immune, and what drugs and vaccines are being tested?

    With the same spirit of pulling out all the stops, extraordinary measures have been proposed to care for the sick and to prevent transmissions. One of the most immediately doable suggestions involves the few thousand people who have become infected during this epidemic and recovered. As far back as 431 B.C., the Athenian historian Thucydides recognized that people who survived the plague made for excellent caregivers. As Thucydides wrote: “It was with those who had recovered from the disease that the sick and the dying found most compassion. These knew what it was from experience, and had now no fear for themselves; for the same man was never attacked twice—never at least fatally.”People who survived Ebola may have developed immunity to that strain and could care for the infected.

    Nicole Lurie, HHS’ assistant secretary for preparedness and response, is one of several doctors who suspect that people who survived Ebola may have developed immunity to that strain of the virus and could care for the infected with little risk to themselves.Lurie suggests that in these West African countries, where jobs are hard to find and Ebola carries such serious stigma with it that survivors sometimes are shunned, training survivors could be a win-win. “It’s a very important question and something we’ve had lots of discussion about,” says Lurie. A consultation of experts held by the World Health Organization earlier this month, also suggested that blood from survivors could be used to treat infected people.

    While experimental treatments like convalescent serum may help, the epidemic urgently needs more basic medical care for the infected.
    Now someone has to try and set up the method to train these person in basic care and hygiene.
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  64. #164  
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    What is really surprising is that the article was written the day after I made the proposal on the forum.
    Time on the article SEPT. 23 2014 11:37 PM
    time of my post
    September 22nd, 2014, 06:52 PM
    Did they read the forum or were they thinking the same thing same time.?
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  65. #165  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Did they read the forum or were they thinking the same thing same time.?
    Yes, you invented the solution, and the world owes you a huge debt of gratitude. We hope you will keep posting once you get back from Stockholm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Did they read the forum or were they thinking the same thing same time.?
    Yes, you invented the solution, and the world owes you a huge debt of gratitude. We hope you will keep posting once you get back from Stockholm.
    I only emphasized the timing aspect in case someone thought I had copied the idea, but it was truly from my own understanding in this situation. So have you changed your tune too now that you see that article appearing in some magazine?

    "Now someone has to try and set up the method to train these persons in basic care and hygiene." That someone could be you Billvon, you seem to have the right contacts.
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  67. #167  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    So have you changed your tune too now that you see that article appearing in some magazine?
    I hope that's a joke. No, I tend to not change my opinion based on popular media articles. Now, if I saw something in the NEJM that contradicted my opinion I might consider changing it, if it made sense to me.
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    The New England Journal of Medicine OK but Slate Medical Examiner might just be a popular magazine OK, but at least I have had some moral support for the concept.
    A couple of days ago I was entirely on my own.
    Firstly myself, then Harold and now Slate magazine.
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    Driving to the office this morning I listened to an interview, on the BBC, of a doctor from the University of Manchester who was about to depart for West Africa to provide front line medical aid. (I shall try to find the interview on the BBC website. I was hugely impressed by the courage and compassion of this young doctor.)
    1. This is a qualified medical doctor, well versed in disease control.
    2. She has been involved in providing similar crisis support for other medical emergencies in the past.
    3. She has undergone specific training in the UK for dealing with ebola patients.
    4. She will undergo further training when she arrives in West Africa.
    5. She will then receive hands on training and mentoring when she gets to the field and sees the first patients.

    She is articulate, intelligent, very well educated, thoroughly motivated and hugely knowledgeable about health care. And yet we believe it is necessary to put her through three forms of training before she comes into contact with ebola patients.

    And some of you think it makes sense to pay locals to do this job. That seems to me incredibly difficult to justify. And the defense that they now have immunity to the disease is not - as far as I understand it - clearly and absolutely established. No matter how well intentioned the proposal may be I can not view it as anything other than irresponsible and foolish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    And some of you think it makes sense to pay locals to do this job. That seems to me incredibly difficult to justify. And the defense that they now have immunity to the disease is not - as far as I understand it - clearly and absolutely established. No matter how well intentioned the proposal may be I can not view it as anything other than irresponsible and foolish.
    Yeah, I can't quite see how the "leper colony" approach makes sense. Educate the local populace on hygiene, identifying the disease and basic prevention of transmission? Absolutely. But if we have people with a week or two of training in constant contact with contagious Ebola patients, they will almost certainly increase the risk of spreading the disease, thus causing the very problem we are trying to solve.

    (Unless you lock them in and say "you're in there until the disease is gone or everyone else is dead!" - but I imagine that would have something of a de-motivating effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Yeah, I can't quite see how the "leper colony" approach makes sense. Educate the local populace on hygiene, identifying the disease and basic prevention of transmission? Absolutely. But if we have people with a week or two of training in constant contact with contagious Ebola patients, they will almost certainly increase the risk of spreading the disease, thus causing the very problem we are trying to solve.
    Indeed, one of the points the doctor in the interview made was that one of the key practices was to be aware at all times of ones own condition: fatigue was a serious potential killer, since the fatigued person can make a fatal mistake regardless of how much training they have received. That attention to fatigue is, seemingly, something that doctors will have dealt with in various ways over years. How could that possibly be instilled in laypersons in a few days or weeks?
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  72. #172  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Indeed, one of the points the doctor in the interview made was that one of the key practices was to be aware at all times of ones own condition: fatigue was a serious potential killer, since the fatigued person can make a fatal mistake regardless of how much training they have received. That attention to fatigue is, seemingly, something that doctors will have dealt with in various ways over years. How could that possibly be instilled in laypersons in a few days or weeks?
    Well, of all things to be wary of, I would think 'experience with fatigue" would be the least worrisome lack in a potential hire. Truck drivers, pilots, air traffic controllers etc spend a lot of time dealing with the potentially deadly effects of fatigue. I'd more worry about the lack of basic skills, like patient evaluation, quarantine measures and sterile technique - things that most people do _not_ have any experience with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Driving to the office this morning I listened to an interview, on the BBC, of a doctor from the University of Manchester who was about to depart for West Africa to provide front line medical aid. (I shall try to find the interview on the BBC website. I was hugely impressed by the courage and compassion of this young doctor.)
    1. This is a qualified medical doctor, well versed in disease control.
    2. She has been involved in providing similar crisis support for other medical emergencies in the past.
    3. She has undergone specific training in the UK for dealing with ebola patients.
    4. She will undergo further training when she arrives in West Africa.
    5. She will then receive hands on training and mentoring when she gets to the field and sees the first patients.

    She is articulate, intelligent, very well educated, thoroughly motivated and hugely knowledgeable about health care. And yet we believe it is necessary to put her through three forms of training before she comes into contact with ebola patients.

    And some of you think it makes sense to pay locals to do this job. That seems to me incredibly difficult to justify. And the defense that they now have immunity to the disease is not - as far as I understand it - clearly and absolutely established. No matter how well intentioned the proposal may be I can not view it as anything other than irresponsible and foolish.
    I'm not saying the survivors have to do it all on their own, yes there will be a need for the really skilled to assess patients needs, but most of the patient contact should be done by the survivor support crew.
    But look it was only a suggestion to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm not saying the survivors have to do it all on their own, yes there will be a need for the really skilled to assess patients needs, but most of the patient contact should be done by the survivor support crew.
    But look it was only a suggestion to begin with.
    The patient contact is where the infection is passed. Show me a plan that demonstrates how all the key skills can be taught to these individuals with a very high probability of success and I'll reconsider.
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  75. #175  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm not saying the survivors have to do it all on their own, yes there will be a need for the really skilled to assess patients needs, but most of the patient contact should be done by the survivor support crew.
    If there is going to be a break in the quarantine, that's where it will occur - as a result of patient contact. If your goal is to minimize risk to the rest of the world, the people in direct contact with the patients have to be some of the best trained people in the effort. (And if you have survivors who meet that criteria, AND they did not become infected due to mistakes they made, then by all means use them - but there aren't going to be a lot of them.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm not saying the survivors have to do it all on their own, yes there will be a need for the really skilled to assess patients needs, but most of the patient contact should be done by the survivor support crew.
    If there is going to be a break in the quarantine, that's where it will occur - as a result of patient contact. If your goal is to minimize risk to the rest of the world, the people in direct contact with the patients have to be some of the best trained people in the effort. (And if you have survivors who meet that criteria, AND they did not become infected due to mistakes they made, then by all means use them - but there aren't going to be a lot of them.)
    Billvon: "There aren't going to be a lot of them."
    Well that depends on the mortality rate which is between 60-70% which means there must be about 1000 survivors currently.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 24th, 2014 at 08:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm not saying the survivors have to do it all on their own, yes there will be a need for the really skilled to assess patients needs, but most of the patient contact should be done by the survivor support crew.
    But look it was only a suggestion to begin with.
    The patient contact is where the infection is passed. Show me a plan that demonstrates how all the key skills can be taught to these individuals with a very high probability of success and I'll reconsider.
    I was thinking of doing something like that, just now before I noted that you had replied.
    Well let's start with the scene I saw on CNN the other day when the reporters pulled up outside a hospital and the gates were locked.
    Or the other one where two patients arrive by car but were too weak to go inside.

    When patients arrive at a clinic they are met by survivors and taken inside the hospital to be examined by a trained doctor.

    The patients are given assistance from the survivor group e.g food and showers to nurse them toward recovery.
    Laundry which is getting in short supply is collected and rewashed by the survivor laundry workers.

    The team lives at the clinic in their own compound and has little contact with the outside world. I'll improve the scheme as I work through the issues.

    [John I'm a bit exhausted at the moment, so I'm struggling terribly. I'll come right again.]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Billvon: "There aren't going to be a lot of them."
    Well that depends on the mortality rate which is between 60-70% which means there must be about 1000 survivors currently.
    So how many of those are:
    1) Trained medical workers who
    2) contracted the disease via some other means than making a mistake in quarantine protocols?

    I predict there will not be a lot of them. I don't know of any right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I was thinking of doing something like that, just now before I noted that you had replied.
    Well let's start with the scene I saw on CNN the other day when the reporters pulled up outside a hospital and the gates were locked.
    Or the other one where two patients arrive by car but were too weak to go inside.

    When patients arrive at a clinic they are met by survivors and taken inside the hospital to be examined by a trained doctor.

    The patients are given assistance from the survivor group e.g food and showers to nurse them toward recovery.
    Laundry which is getting in short supply is collected and rewashed by the survivor laundry workers.

    The team lives at the clinic in their own compound and has little contact with the outside world. I'll improve the scheme as I work through the issues.
    And say to those survivors.. "Hey, you just survived one of the deadliest diseases known to mankind. So we'll just lock you up in a compound, away from your loved ones you haven't seen since you fell ill and won't be allowed to see for a while and force you into hard dangerous labour because you were lucky to survive!".

    Compassion, understanding, empathy.. Do those words even exist in your vocabulary?

    [John I'm a bit exhausted at the moment, so I'm struggling terribly. I'll come right again.]
    Sorry mate. I think you deserve the exact level of empathy and compassion you are showing to the survivors.
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  80. #180  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I was thinking of doing something like that, just now before I noted that you had replied.
    Well let's start with the scene I saw on CNN the other day when the reporters pulled up outside a hospital and the gates were locked.
    Or the other one where two patients arrive by car but were too weak to go inside.

    When patients arrive at a clinic they are met by survivors and taken inside the hospital to be examined by a trained doctor.

    The patients are given assistance from the survivor group e.g food and showers to nurse them toward recovery.
    Laundry which is getting in short supply is collected and rewashed by the survivor laundry workers.

    The team lives at the clinic in their own compound and has little contact with the outside world. I'll improve the scheme as I work through the issues.
    And say to those survivors.. "Hey, you just survived one of the deadliest diseases known to mankind. So we'll just lock you up in a compound, away from your loved ones you haven't seen since you fell ill and won't be allowed to see for a while and force you into hard dangerous labour because you were lucky to survive!".

    Compassion, understanding, empathy.. Do those words even exist in your vocabulary?

    [John I'm a bit exhausted at the moment, so I'm struggling terribly. I'll come right again.]
    Sorry mate. I think you deserve the exact level of empathy and compassion you are showing to the survivors.
    Hey Tranquille tell me if the people working in these clinics now are allowed to go back into the community at the end of the day or for the weekends? How do they ensure they are safe after they removed their gowns and gloves? A lot of medical staff were contracting the disease so even the methods being applied today can't be that perfect.

    Those countries are facing a crisis, so when I saw them set up those exclusion zones where no one was allowed in or out, I noted that I had compassion, understanding and empathy. These words were definitely in my vocabulary. In the face of a national crisis a degree of "Compassion, understanding, empathy" will be compromised. The soldiers manning the exclusions zones are unable to show "Compassion, understanding, empathy" it is their job. That technique of setting exclusion zones certainly didn't seem to be helpful, so I hope you are not advocating more of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Billvon: "There aren't going to be a lot of them."
    Well that depends on the mortality rate which is between 60-70% which means there must be about 1000 survivors currently.
    So how many of those are:
    1) Trained medical workers who
    2) contracted the disease via some other means than making a mistake in quarantine protocols?

    I predict there will not be a lot of them. I don't know of any right now.
    Well that would be hard to tell from here.
    But the thing I notice is that if there was less close contact with the infected clinical cases the (non-immune) trained staff would have less chance of becoming infected. The survivors are immune so they should be the only ones contacting patients but continue to work under direct supervision of the highly trained medical staff.
    That is my thoughts at this stage anyway.
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  82. #182  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post

    Hey Tranquille tell me if the people working in these clinics now are allowed to go back into the community at the end of the day or for the weekends? How do they ensure they are safe after they removed their gowns and gloves? A lot of medical staff were contracting the disease so even the methods being applied today can't be that perfect.
    Medical professionals are aware of the risk and it should tell you something that even if the absolute professionals with the training they have can still contract the disease, what is the risk to survivors who may or may not be immune to it? Would you want to take the risk? I wouldn't.

    Those people have been through enough. Using money to make them do it is obscene. They have suffered enough and do not need to be shoved back into that, just so that Westerner's don't get their hands dirty. That is what it comes down to. I find your suggestion abhorrent for many reasons, from the bigoted undertones that since they are so poor, then giving them more money might tempt them, to your belief that they can just do the laundry (there is no laundry, it's all burned), to your complete disregard for the risk and threat such a proposition would be for the communities these survivors came from, to being aghast at your proposition that they can just be locked up in a compound if they survived and made to work.

    Those countries are facing a crisis, so when I saw them set up those exclusion zones where no one was allowed in or out, I noted that I had compassion, understanding and empathy.
    I don't think you even understand the meanings of those words.

    Compassion, understanding and empathy would not have the very few survivors have to continue to face the horror of what they just survived through on a daily basis with the offer of money. Your suggestion is craven and frankly, disgusting.

    These words were definitely in my vocabulary. In the face of a national crisis a degree of "Compassion, understanding, empathy" will be compromised. The soldiers manning the exclusions zones are unable to show "Compassion, understanding, empathy" it is their job. That technique of setting exclusion zones certainly didn't seem to be helpful, so I hope you are not advocating more of that.
    In the face of such a crisis, your sole suggestion is to get the poor people to do the dirty work and just offer them more money, possibly placing them, their loved ones and their communities at even greater risk of the disease because they are untrained. If you think that shows compassion, understanding or empathy, then it is absolutely clear that you do not know the meanings of those words.

    Do you understand why they have the exclusion zones? It is for the people with possible symptoms of the disease. They don't have them in the clinics and areas where people suffering from the disease are being treated, simply because it is so traumatic. Do you even understand what happens when you suffer from Ebola? To suggest that survivors place themselves, their families and their loved ones at greater risk doing the job that only trained professionals should be doing is ridiculous. Then you have the temerity, with your understanding, compassion and empathy, to suggest that the survivors can just be locked away in a compound during this epidemic so that they can keep treating the sick. Because this is understanding and compassionate? Lock them up and force them to do hard labour in a dangerous and infectious situation after they survived it the first time?

    We do not know if the survivors are immune. To even suggest that we make them risk their lives again, just so that Westerner's don't have to do the dirty work, shows just how little you actually think for the poor victims of this disease who managed to survive, or for their greater and general communities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Well that would be hard to tell from here.
    But the thing I notice is that if there was less close contact with the infected clinical cases the (non-immune) trained staff would have less chance of becoming infected. The survivors are immune so they should be the only ones contacting patients but continue to work under direct supervision of the highly trained medical staff.
    That is my thoughts at this stage anyway.
    You do realise that to treat the patients, doctors and nurses have to have close contact with them, yes? So your suggestion is to just have the untrained, uneducated few survivors be the ones to be contacting the patients? Wow, because that won't cause more people do die, will it?

    You do not know if they are immune. They may be immune. May. So it is possible. We do not know for sure. And you think it is acceptable for them to lock them up in a compound and not let them out and risk their lives based on a possibility that they are immune?
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    @ Tranquille - Rather than me getting all wound-up trying to reply to all your emotive words used against me, read through the article I will link here and tell me honestly if you can see that the only solution is to use the survivors. If the number of cases gets to 1 million, what are they going to do then?

    Liberia's Ebola victims dying at home amid shortage of clinics
    Liberia's Ebola victims dying at home amid shortage of clinics - Houston Chronicle

    The sentence that supported my idea was this one:
    In the coming weeks, the United States military will try to overhaul the fight against Ebola in Liberia, home to 1,580 of the 2,800 Ebola deaths so far recorded in West Africa. The 3,000-strong American mission will not treat Ebola patients, but will build as many as 17 treatment centers, with a total of 1,700 beds, and try to train 500 health workers a week.
    But building the centers is expected to take weeks and it is unclear who will run them.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 25th, 2014 at 12:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Well that would be hard to tell from here.
    But the thing I notice is that if there was less close contact with the infected clinical cases the (non-immune) trained staff would have less chance of becoming infected. The survivors are immune so they should be the only ones contacting patients but continue to work under direct supervision of the highly trained medical staff.
    That is my thoughts at this stage anyway.
    You do realise that to treat the patients, doctors and nurses have to have close contact with them, yes? So your suggestion is to just have the untrained, uneducated few survivors be the ones to be contacting the patients? Wow, because that won't cause more people do die, will it?

    You do not know if they are immune. They may be immune. May. So it is possible. We do not know for sure. And you think it is acceptable for them to lock them up in a compound and not let them out and risk their lives based on a possibility that they are immune?
    1. To check that the survivors are immune they could run a test for the presence of antibodies in their blood.
    2.Currently patients are often not getting any treatment, so good nursing care even from a relatively unskilled (but "trained") survivor nurse aid would be better than nothing.
    3. In times like this someone has to step up to meet the needs of the crisis.
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    Those 500 health workers they hope to train are locals aren't they? (So the survivor group won't be large enough on their own at that rate, well not at the moment anyway.)

    Are these prospects going to be paid?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; September 25th, 2014 at 01:00 AM.
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    Ebola Virus - What should you do?
    @ Tranquille - You just seem to be repeating yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    1. To check that the survivors are immune they could run a test for the presence of antibodies in their blood.
    Do you think that a specific antibody test indicates guaranteed immunity to all strains of Ebola?
    2.Currently patients are often not getting any treatment, so good nursing care even from a relatively unskilled (but "trained") survivor nurse aid would be better than nothing.
    Not if that unskilled worker makes basic mistakes, goes home and then infects his family and friends - and one of them boards an airplane to Bangkok. That is worse than nothing.
    3. In times like this someone has to step up to meet the needs of the crisis.
    Yes. Fortunately the US is stepping up, as are several other countries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    1. To check that the survivors are immune they could run a test for the presence of antibodies in their blood.
    Do you think that a specific antibody test indicates guaranteed immunity to all strains of Ebola?
    2.Currently patients are often not getting any treatment, so good nursing care even from a relatively unskilled (but "trained") survivor nurse aid would be better than nothing.
    Not if that unskilled worker makes basic mistakes, goes home and then infects his family and friends - and one of them boards an airplane to Bangkok. That is worse than nothing.
    3. In times like this someone has to step up to meet the needs of the crisis.
    Yes. Fortunately the US is stepping up, as are several other countries.
    1. Yes they said there was possible cross immunity and the current strain was the most common.
    2. That is why I thought they should have accommodation at their place of work, and have adequate decontamination processes before leaving these sites.
    3. I don't disagree with what the US and other countries are doing.
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    @ Tranquille - From a brief search it appears you are wrong about burning all the in contact equipment.
    An Ebola treatment center - The Washington Post
    Undressing room Workers must undress very slowly and carefully to prevent infection, washing hands after removing each item of protective clothing. Some equipment can be reused after disinfection; other items are incinerated.
    You could imagine gloves and masks being incinerated, but the fabric gowns and footwear would be the items being disinfected.
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  91. #191  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    @ Tranquille - Rather than me getting all wound-up trying to reply to all your emotive words used against me
    Better to spam me with multiple responses instead?


    read through the article I will link here and tell me honestly if you can see that the only solution is to use the survivors. If the number of cases gets to 1 million, what are they going to do then?
    If you use untrained survivors, many of whom are probably illiterate, unskilled, know nothing about the stringent processes required when dealing with a dangerous and deadly pathogen, then you can be sure that the infection rate will surpass 1 million. Without fail.

    Liberia's Ebola victims dying at home amid shortage of clinics
    Liberia's Ebola victims dying at home amid shortage of clinics - Houston Chronicle

    The sentence that supported my idea was this one:
    In the coming weeks, the United States military will try to overhaul the fight against Ebola in Liberia, home to 1,580 of the 2,800 Ebola deaths so far recorded in West Africa. The 3,000-strong American mission will not treat Ebola patients, but will build as many as 17 treatment centers, with a total of 1,700 beds, and try to train 500 health workers a week.
    But building the centers is expected to take weeks and it is unclear who will run them.
    Your idea is to impound and lock up untrained survivors who have just experienced something horrific and force them into labour caring for people who are sick with a deadly pathogen.

    That is the crux of your idea.

    1. To check that the survivors are immune they could run a test for the presence of antibodies in their blood.
    Which means nothing. They could be immune to one strain, but viruses mutate, often, and there are multiple strains.

    Do you think it is acceptable to force them to risk their lives after what they will have just lived through?

    2.Currently patients are often not getting any treatment, so good nursing care even from a relatively unskilled (but "trained") survivor nurse aid would be better than nothing.
    Do you have any idea of how many years it takes to train to be a nurse?

    Do you understand that to treat these patients, they require specialist medical care, especially because of the nature of this disease. They require intravenous hydration to combat the bloodied vomiting and diarrhea and the dehydration from that and the fever. They require constant medical attention, medication and care. This is not something that you can give someone a one week course and have them do. This requires experts and trained people in their field. Even a first aid course can take weeks. And you think giving unskilled, uneducated and illiterate people a few courses and give them a bit of a test and they'll be right to go providing medical care to people dying of a deadly pathogen? Not only is it unsafe, it will endanger millions in the process.

    3. In times like this someone has to step up to meet the needs of the crisis.
    Why don't you do it?

    Those 500 health workers they hope to train are locals aren't they? (So the survivor group won't be large enough on their own at that rate, well not at the moment anyway.)

    Are these prospects going to be paid?
    There are hundreds of doctors, nurses, paramedics and other specialists from numerous countries training to go there. And yes, there are many local doctors and nurses volunteering their expertise to help. You know, people who are trained to do this.

    Not only will this reduce the rate of transmission, but also provide the level of care the patients deserve.

    Ebola Virus - What should you do?
    @ Tranquille - You just seem to be repeating yourself.
    Which begs the question, why do you still not understand?

    Are the words I'm using too big?

    @ Tranquille - From a brief search it appears you are wrong about burning all the in contact equipment.
    An Ebola treatment center - The Washington Post
    And?

    Did I say everything was being burned? No. I said contaminated mattresses and bedding would probably be burned, since the virus can survive outside of the body for several days.


    In a storehouse in Guéckédou, teams prepare solidarity kits for the families of people who are ill with or have died from Ebola. Mattresses, sheets, towels, mosquito nets and soap are offered to the community to replace what has been destroyed or burned in the patient’s room to avoid contamination. “Apart from the enormous workload, it is extremely challenging both physically and emotionally for our staff,” said Dr. Hilde de Clerck, MSF doctor. ”Outreach teams often travel long ways to reach affected communities. Many also know the affected families themselves and are witness to heartbreaking moments when people must be taken from their family or community into the treatment center.”
    Things like surgical equipment, bedpans, etc, can be decontaminated.

    You could imagine gloves and masks being incinerated, but the fabric gowns and footwear would be the items being disinfected.
    From WHO:



    In a specially-dug pit, hospital staff burned gowns, gloves, clothing, mattresses and bedding that were potentially contaminated with the Ebola virus. Every day, materials that could not be properly disinfected (including syringes and needles) were incinerated in the pit.

    This is standard procedure with Ebola.

    When someone contracts Ebola, the decontamination teams go to their house and they remove all bedding, clothing, towels, mattresses, sheets, and everything else and they burn it. The same applies in the treatment centers where they aren't using plastic sheets. If bodily fluids get on the mattresses, or any bedding, mosquito nets, anything of the sort, it gets burned.

    I've written in small words and even provided pictures. If you still cannot understand, then I recommend buying a plane ticket to Liberia and seeing first hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Show me a plan that demonstrates how all the key skills can be taught to these individuals with a very high probability of success and I'll reconsider.
    I was thinking of doing something like that, just now before I noted that you had replied.
    Good God, man. I wasn't being serious. I was being sarcastic. The freedom of no longer being a moderator allows me to say it directly: you are an idiot; a fool; a buffoon. (Of course forum rules forbid me from being this free. Please report the post so appropriate action can be taken.)
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  93. #193  
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    I may or may not have just spammed the 'like' button until my computer started beeping...
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Show me a plan that demonstrates how all the key skills can be taught to these individuals with a very high probability of success and I'll reconsider.
    I was thinking of doing something like that, just now before I noted that you had replied.
    Good God, man. I wasn't being serious. I was being sarcastic. The freedom of no longer being a moderator allows me to say it directly: you are an idiot; a fool; a buffoon. (Of course forum rules forbid me from being this free. Please report the post so appropriate action can be taken.)
    I don't believe it. Are you just trying to impress Tranquille? It seems to have worked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    .....
    This is standard procedure with Ebola.

    When someone contracts Ebola, the decontamination teams go to their house and they remove all bedding, clothing, towels, mattresses, sheets, and everything else and they burn it. The same applies in the treatment centers where they aren't using plastic sheets. If bodily fluids get on the mattresses, or any bedding, mosquito nets, anything of the sort, it gets burned.

    I've written in small words and even provided pictures. If you still cannot understand, then I recommend buying a plane ticket to Liberia and seeing first hand.
    That is what they do in the homes but what do they do at the treatment centers where they have laundry facilities?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That is what they do in the homes but what do they do at the treatment centers where they have laundry facilities?
    Can't you read?

    Posting it once again. From the WHO:



    In a specially-dug pit, hospital staff burned gowns, gloves, clothing, mattresses and bedding that were potentially contaminated with the Ebola virus. Every day, materials that could not be properly disinfected (including syringes and needles) were incinerated in the pit.
    This is standard hospital protocol for Ebola.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That is what they do in the homes but what do they do at the treatment centers where they have laundry facilities?
    Can't you read?

    Posting it once again. From the WHO:



    In a specially-dug pit, hospital staff burned gowns, gloves, clothing, mattresses and bedding that were potentially contaminated with the Ebola virus. Every day, materials that could not be properly disinfected (including syringes and needles) were incinerated in the pit.
    This is standard hospital protocol for Ebola.
    But you could also read this:
    CDC experts address Ebola infection control issues | CIDRAP
    Kuhar said guidance on safe handling of deceased EVD patients is under development and that it will address the laundry topic in a future supplement to the hospital infection control recommendations.
    Currently, the CDC recommends standard procedures for cleaning textiles and laundry based on manufacturer instructions and hospital policies. The agency's earlier guidance for viral hemorrhagic fever recommended that soiled laundry should be clearly labeled in leak-proof bags and sent directly to the laundry area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    But you could also read this:
    CDC experts address Ebola infection control issues | CIDRAP
    Kuhar said guidance on safe handling of deceased EVD patients is under development and that it will address the laundry topic in a future supplement to the hospital infection control recommendations.
    Currently, the CDC recommends standard procedures for cleaning textiles and laundry based on manufacturer instructions and hospital policies. The agency's earlier guidance for viral hemorrhagic fever recommended that soiled laundry should be clearly labeled in leak-proof bags and sent directly to the laundry area.
    I'll ask again, can't you read?

    For in the US.
    Do you even read what you link?

    I link you pictures and articles from MSF and the WHO, both of which explain how they burn mattresses, bedding, etc, in Africa and you respond by linking something the CDC recommends for US hospitals.

    In African treatment centers where they don't have laundry rooms capable of treating sheets and bedding textiles to disinfect and decontaminate it, they burn it. They are treating people in halls, football fields, etc. In African treatment centers, small hospitals and probably even bigger hospitals, they burn everything possibly contaminated with Ebola. Standard practice.

    I get that you're intent on forcing black people to do dangerous work, and keeping them locked up in a compound, because they were lucky enough to survive and you think risking their lives again is acceptable, even though you think throwing money at them will just get them to want to do it, but really, enough is enough. Your desperate attempts to find ways to kill and endanger more people is getting tiring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    But you could also read this:
    CDC experts address Ebola infection control issues | CIDRAP
    Kuhar said guidance on safe handling of deceased EVD patients is under development and that it will address the laundry topic in a future supplement to the hospital infection control recommendations.
    Currently, the CDC recommends standard procedures for cleaning textiles and laundry based on manufacturer instructions and hospital policies. The agency's earlier guidance for viral hemorrhagic fever recommended that soiled laundry should be clearly labeled in leak-proof bags and sent directly to the laundry area.
    I'll ask again, can't you read?

    For in the US.
    Do you even read what you link?

    I link you pictures and articles from MSF and the WHO, both of which explain how they burn mattresses, bedding, etc, in Africa and you respond by linking something the CDC recommends for US hospitals.

    In African treatment centers where they don't have laundry rooms capable of treating sheets and bedding textiles to disinfect and decontaminate it, they burn it. They are treating people in halls, football fields, etc. In African treatment centers, small hospitals and probably even bigger hospitals, they burn everything possibly contaminated with Ebola. Standard practice.

    I get that you're intent on forcing black people to do dangerous work, and keeping them locked up in a compound, because they were lucky enough to survive and you think risking their lives again is acceptable, even though you think throwing money at them will just get them to want to do it, but really, enough is enough. Your desperate attempts to find ways to kill and endanger more people is getting tiring.
    I have never used any racist words or implications and I find it detestable that you keep on making racist statements and attribute them to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I have never used any racist words or implications and I find it detestable that you keep on making racist statements and attribute them to me.
    You are the one making the dumb statements, then defending them ad infinitum.
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