Notices
Results 1 to 22 of 22
Like Tree2Likes
  • 1 Post By Lynx_Fox
  • 1 Post By skeptic

Thread: What is the difference between the ketogenic diet and atkins diet?

  1. #1 What is the difference between the ketogenic diet and atkins diet? 
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    908
    Phase One of the Atkins Diet - Atkins Induction Phase

    from reading this website, i dont see a difference between atkins and ketogenic diets.

    anyone care to know any differences?

    it seems all to congruent


    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    They are both bullshit diets. The aitkens diet forces you to drop carbohydrates and eat lots of fat and protein instead. That definitely helps you to lose weight, for as long as you can stand it, after which you put all that lost weight back on. But the reason it works has nothing to do with the reasons Aitkens gave. It is simply that protein fills you up quicker than other foods, so you eat less.

    If you want to lose weight, forget it. This is because almost no one succeeds in losing weight long term. Short term, yes. After which all the weight plus more goes right back on.

    Change your aim to improving your health, which is much more easily achievable long term. Regular healthy exercise and a good balanced diet, instead of fad diets.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    908
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    That definitely helps you to lose weight, for as long as you can stand it, after which you put all that lost weight back on.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Change your aim to improving your health
    could you kindly back up what you claim of quote 1, because, from what i understand,
    From quote 1:
    1) It seems that you assume that the main aim of all weight-loss diets is simply calorie deficit.
    2) Calorie deficit will make you lose muscle, when in turn, lowers your metabolism, and eventually gain tons of weight.
    3) This 2-minute video is exactly what i am talking about. Why Counting Calories Doesn't Work - YouTube
    4) Could you share what you think about keto after watching the video?, and yes, its reliable, actually the idea is well all over google and i guess nutritionists' education.
    5) "After which all the weight plus more goes right back on. " didn't the video describe that you won't lose metabolism...?

    From quote 2:
    1) Keto diets cures acne really well. (from my personal experience)
    2) Keto diets starves cancer cells and insulin diets feeds cancer cells.
    3) Keto diets prevents (to a huge extent) epilepsy.
    4) Besides, aren't there vitamin pills...?
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Quote Originally Posted by RamenNoodles View Post
    3) This 2-minute video is exactly what i am talking about. Why Counting Calories Doesn't Work - YouTube
    And rather misleading. The body doesn't go for muscle first. And only under the most calorie deficient diets kick into this starvation strategy.
    --
    4) Could you share what you think about keto after watching the video?, and yes, its reliable, actually the idea is well all over google and i guess nutritionists' education.
    We can find big foot, angels, and pink ponies all over Google as well--it adds no credibility.

    It has been found effective in controlling extreme cases of some epilepsy--probably why it might be part of a nutritionist education, something you get proscribed by a physician.
    --


    1) Keto diets cures acne really well. (from my personal experience)
    2) Keto diets starves cancer cells and insulin diets feeds cancer cells.
    Peer review science citations needed.
    skeptic likes this.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    To Ramen

    The normal purpose of diets like the Aitkens is to lose weight. This can be done. Losing weight short term is not difficult. The sad thing is that keeping it off long term (5 years plus) is next to impossible for most people. 19 out of 20 people in assorted weight loss trials put it all back in that time, and most actually put back more weight than they take off. It does not matter what diet you follow, whether ketogenic, Aitkens, or something more sensible, you will most probably put back all the lost weight plus more.

    It is far more sensible, as I said, to forget about losing weight, and concentrate on improving your overall health. This is done with a program of reasonable regular exercise, a good balanced diet, proper rest and recreation, plus stress management if required. Forget the fad diets, no matter how many crackpot web sites praise them, and concentrate on what is sensible.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    281
    Sandra Aamodt: Why dieting doesn't usually work - YouTube TED talk on why diets don't usually work. To summarise a little for people, any diet based on mental discipline will ultimately fail. The major aim, should be listening to your body, only aim to eat 80% of your stomach capacity.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,408
    Quote Originally Posted by RamenNoodles View Post
    Phase One of the Atkins Diet - Atkins Induction Phase

    from reading this website, i dont see a difference between atkins and ketogenic diets.

    anyone care to know any differences?

    it seems all to congruent
    No, there is not much difference in them at all. You will also see a "Paleo diet" marketed with the same claims.

    If you have sensitivity to wheat products or early diabetes high protein low starch diets can have some medical benefits but really shouldn't make much difference to a healthy person.

    As for the idea that a diet of mainly meats and fats is unhealthy the eskimos did fine on such a diet for thousands of years and many coastal people used a diet that was mainly fish and seaweed with a few roots and berries.
    However people have done fine on diets with starches in them too.

    About the only real argument against these "Paleo" diets is the concentration of persistent fat soluble pollutants as you move up the food chain.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Quote Originally Posted by Curiosity View Post
    Sandra Aamodt: Why dieting doesn't usually work - YouTube TED talk on why diets don't usually work. To summarise a little for people, any diet based on mental discipline will ultimately fail. The major aim, should be listening to your body, only aim to eat 80% of your stomach capacity.
    As much as I like TED talks, this is not so good advise for many and overly general. Many people don't get a signal to listen to. Also, there would be a huge difference between caloric intake from a an 80% full stomach of spaghetti, and one that's mostly fresh vegetables.
    Why eating slowly may help you feel full faster - Harvard Health Publications
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Cambridgeshire
    Posts
    660
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    They are both bullshit diets. The aitkens diet forces you to drop carbohydrates and eat lots of fat and protein instead. That definitely helps you to lose weight, for as long as you can stand it, after which you put all that lost weight back on. But the reason it works has nothing to do with the reasons Aitkens gave. It is simply that protein fills you up quicker than other foods, so you eat less.

    If you want to lose weight, forget it. This is because almost no one succeeds in losing weight long term. Short term, yes. After which all the weight plus more goes right back on.

    Change your aim to improving your health, which is much more easily achievable long term. Regular healthy exercise and a good balanced diet, instead of fad diets.
    Incorrect - the ketogenic diet is not a fad and is medically used for treating acute epilepsy and is based on the optimal nutrient ration of 65% fat, 20% protein and 15% carbs. This is also the ratio I have been following for the last 4 years that has seen cirrhosis of my liver reduce from 11.8 kpa to mild damage at 6.2 kpa. The ketogenic diet has nothing to do with weight but I have maintained a stable 51 kg for the last 4 years with no restriction on the food I eat other than sticking to the nutrient ratio.
    The difference between Atkins and ketogenic is that the ketogenic diet normally excludes dairy whereas Atkins doesn't.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Luci

    I have maintained a stable 96 kgs weight for the past 33 years. I did this with no diet whatever.

    The TED talked mentioned by Curiosity contained a mention of a research study with some interesting results.

    The researchers looked at lifespan, weight, and four healthy habits. The four habits were
    1. Eating a balanced diet with lots of fruit and vegetables
    2. Regular exercise. At least 3 times per week, for at least 30 minutes each time, sufficient to raise breathing rate. You must end up panting.
    3. Not smoking.
    4. Drinking alcohol with moderation only. No more than two standard drinks per day on average.

    If we take the normal weighted person who obeys those four rules as the ideal, then the researchers discovered....

    A. Overweight people who obeyed three of the rules lived as long as the ideal on average.
    B. Mildly obese people who obeyed all four, lived as long as the ideal.


    So, in other words, in order to live a long and healthy life, it is not necessary to be of normal weight. You can be overweight or even a bit obese as long as you obey the rules of healthy living.

    Since 19 out of 20 people who try to lose weight end up weighing more than they began, in the long run, and since such weight loss and gain cycles are very unhealthy, it is better not to try to lose weight in the first place. Focus instead on healthy living according to the four rules above.
    dan hunter likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Cambridgeshire
    Posts
    660
    Calling something a diet doesn't necessarily mean its a diet to lose weight as I pointed out above. The ketogenic diet is not designed to help people lose weight its to keep people healthy because its based on the optimal macronutrient ratio for a human being. I'm not disputing the fact that you don't have to be slim to be healthy - my grossly overweight swimming instructor can swim 200 lengths of a 25 m pool without breaking a sweat. What I am disputing is the fact you called the ketogenic diet a fad diet because it isn't.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    281
    Good point Lyn, I'm glad you and skeptic took something away from the video
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    908
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Calling something a diet doesn't necessarily mean its a diet to lose weight as I pointed out above. The ketogenic diet is not designed to help people lose weight its to keep people healthy because its based on the optimal macronutrient ratio for a human being. I'm not disputing the fact that you don't have to be slim to be healthy - my grossly overweight swimming instructor can swim 200 lengths of a 25 m pool without breaking a sweat. What I am disputing is the fact you called the ketogenic diet a fad diet because it isn't.
    not for weight loss, i hear?

    I understand that diets doesn mean- have to lose weight,
    but im referring to how keto is used for weight loss, without weight gain in long term. are for people who want to lose weight, and for weight lifters who want to build muscle.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/obes...id-weight-loss
    high-fat diet helps people maintain their weight loss long-term — something the vast majority of diets cannot claim.
    http://www.dietdoctor.com/lose-weigh...ptimal-ketosis
    Keto Calculator - Learn Your Macros on the Ketogenic Diet
    This calculator determines your optimal food intake for your personal weight loss goals on the ketogenic diet.
    Bodybuilding.com - In Depth Look At Ketogenic Diets And Ketosis.
    The main benefit being that it increases the body's ability to utilize fats for fuel, which gets very lazy on a high carbohydrate diet. When on high carbohydrate diets the body can usually expect an energy source to keep entering the body. But in the state of ketosis the body has to become efficient at mobilizing fats as energy.
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Quote Originally Posted by RamenNoodles View Post

    not for weight loss, i hear?

    -----crap non-science links----
    Find a peer reviewed science paper about long term weight loss and mortality related to the keto diet if you want to convince any science minded people.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    The basic principle of the ketogenic diet is the idea that eating almost no cartbohydrates, and relying on large fat intake for energy, then forces the body to burn fat. It is an idea that lacks much in the way of empirical evidence. It is also a very unbalanced diet, which is unhealthy.

    The idea that carbohydrates are bad for you is an idea that is currently fashionable, but fashionable does not mean scientifically valid. Purified starch is, indeed, not good food. But carbohydrate foods that come with lots of fibre and lots of other nutrients are not only healthy, but are probably necessary for optimal well being. I eat lots of multigrain wholemeal bread, for example. That is starch mixed with fibre and lots of valuable nutrients.

    In the same way, purified sugar is very bad for you. But sugar blended with fibre and lots of nutrients in the form known as fruit, is very very healthy.

    There is no good scientific data that suggest any health gain from dumping such valuable foods for fat. There is a lot of good scientific data to suggest that such a substitution is health madness.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Cambridgeshire
    Posts
    660
    I know exactly the principles of a ketogenic diet skeptic and the original basis for this was to help epileptics that otherwise were stuck with it. See reference above. Its based on the optimal macronutrient ratio for humans. Which I will state for you again because you will notice it has just about the same amount of protein as carbs - 65% fats, 20% protein and 15% carbs. Its a baseline but its good to switch it about a bit.
    I dont know where you get the idea that sugar is good for you if its blended with fibre. The human body has no physical requirement for sugar whatsoever in any form it is empty calories. The brain requires glucose but the liver converts proteins into glucose - gluconeogenesis. Fruits are healthy because they are full of polyphenols and anti-oxidants but there is a limit to how many of those are good for you.
    Eating a ketogenic diet requires you to eat the whole animal - cook with the bones and eat all the organ meats etc.. with as little cooking as possible. If you eat a wide variety of grass fed animals with grain fed animals you will get all the vitamins needed from the muscle meats and the organ meats and minerals etc from the bone marrow. Couple that with root and green vegetables, eggs and occasionally nuts and berries and you have a healthy balanced diet. Its worked on a ratio of 1:3 ie 100g meat + 300g vegetables.
    Whilst it might seem health madness to you as it does to most people who believe in things like food groups (man-made concept) and accepts the current health wisdoms (mostly devised by the food industry) I can only go by my own health.
    At the end of my treatment I couldnt walk up the stairs without sitting down. I had to sit in the shower because if I stood up and raised both my hands above my head to wash my hair I passed out. I started the ketogenic diet a week before the end of treatment. I can now swim two miles with ease and in a fairly good time. I do martial arts and work all day and study in the evenings. I am no longer insulin resistant and the peripheral neuropathy has all but gone although I still have some issues. I still have liver damage (6.2 kpa) but have very few effects from it. In short I live a full and healthy life now and am fitter than most 'healthy' people I know.
    Studies are currently under way at Kings College Hospital with the ketogenic diet and its efficacy for people with metabolic syndrome and people like myself with liver disease.
    If you have some links to studies that show how dangerous it is I would be very interested to see them. I know it is not recommended long term for children but other than that I havent seen any indication of health madness ensuing after taking it up.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Luci

    First, you have failed to understand my point about sugar. Certainly sugar is empty calories. My point though, is that fruit is healthy despite the sugar being empty calories. The reason fruit is healthy is because of the fibre and assortment of nutrients.

    Ketogenic diets may be OK for very specialised purposes, but they should not be promoted for ordinary people. Reason? That much fat in your diet can be a killer.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    908
    huh, why can't much carbs in your diet be a killer too, then?
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If thy right nipple offend thee, pluck it off! Goes for the other, too!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Cambridgeshire
    Posts
    660
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Luci

    First, you have failed to understand my point about sugar. Certainly sugar is empty calories. My point though, is that fruit is healthy despite the sugar being empty calories. The reason fruit is healthy is because of the fibre and assortment of nutrients.

    Ketogenic diets may be OK for very specialised purposes, but they should not be promoted for ordinary people. Reason? That much fat in your diet can be a killer.
    I'd like to share my thinking about that with you - if you will indulge me for 5 mins. I personally think that the human body can run on either a fat-fuelled diet OR a carb-fuelled diet (with the nutrient ratio remaining the same - so 65% carbs/20% protein and 15% fats). I think that choosing a carb fuelled diet means red meat and animal fats should be avoided and that proteins should come from nuts and vegetables and the fats from nut and veg oils with plenty of fish in there too for the omega 3's and 6's. I believe the problems with heart disease and metabolic disorders, obesity etc arise when a diet with a lot of carbs is mixed with animal fats and meats.

    I personally feel the fat-fuelled diet is the default diet if you like and the one that our digestive systems have been calibrated to and as such suitable for everyone but then I am biased because it works so well for me.

    The thought of a heart attack or some such from too much fat is not a concern for me - my aim is not to live forever but to live well and feel healthy while I am here.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Cambridgeshire
    Posts
    660
    I would just like to add that because of my illness and treatment I have a full blood works done every 6 months and LDL, HDL and triglycerides are text book levels as are all my other bloods - liver enzyme count (ALT) and the like. So a heart attack doesn't look likely just yet.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Quote Originally Posted by RamenNoodles View Post
    huh, why can't much carbs in your diet be a killer too, then?
    The key is balance. Too many carbohydrates may not be good, since that is unbalanced. Too much sugar is bad. Purified starch is not good either. But we all need some starch mixed with fibre and a wide range of nutrients. This is best obtained by a variety of foods, with the emphasis on fruit and vegetables.

    A diet high in animal products can be healthy also, as witnessed by such peoples as Inuit and Masai. However, they consume a lot of a wide range of animal tissues. Masai also walk, and walk, and walk, and walk. Exercise is vital if your diet is high in fats, as theirs is. But even then, the traditional Inuit and Masai diets are not ideal. We can do better.

    We get this kind of discussion from time to time. The opposite is those people who insist that a vegan diet is the ideal. Like the animal diet, you can be healthy on a vegan diet, but it, too, is not ideal. A balance between a large variety of foods and nutrients is better.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Goddess of Eternity rmbettencourt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Beverly Hills
    Posts
    221
    I do not know about the Atkins diet, but I hear wonders about the ketogenic diet. I have only briefly tried the ketogenic diet and saw results but I could not stand the high calories, so I stopped. I can definitely see the science behind the ketogenic diet, but also how it can cause confusion (even I am still slightly confused about it). However, like I said, I know nothing about the Atkins diet.Of course both have potential to become fad diets because the best way to lose weight permanently is to change your diet.
    avec amour,
    RM
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. How dangerous is Cyclical Ketogenic diet?
    By RamenNoodles in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: April 30th, 2014, 03:17 PM
  2. Superfood diet
    By Darius in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: March 21st, 2009, 09:31 AM
  3. The -IDEAL- diet for every day
    By Inevidence in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: July 27th, 2008, 01:40 PM
  4. An ultimate diet?
    By Modern_Hero in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: October 25th, 2007, 06:44 AM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •