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Thread: Self Defense for women

  1. #1 Self Defense for women 
    Forum Senior chero's Avatar
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    What are the best techniques of self defense for women (or anyone in general)?


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    It's a pretty generic question, situations depending a lot on situation such as home, on the street etc.
    Learning not to look like an easy mark.
    Learning to defuse a situation by talking.
    Sprinting, which is the very next thing even if another form of deterrent or force is learned.
    Pepper spray or an equivalent.
    A damn loud alarm...such as one of those "screaming memes" you can pick up at any truck stop that can wake the dead, or get a citizen a half a block down the street to look.
    A fire arm a 20 gauge shot gun for the home or a side arms .40 or smaller in size for on the street.
    Hand to hand for a few techniques to shock the victim long enough to run off.


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    Always travel In pairs at least.

    Try not to go places where there might be trouble.

    Take self defense courses .
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It's a pretty generic question, situations depending a lot on situation such as home, on the street etc.
    Learning not to look like an easy mark.
    Learning to defuse a situation by talking.
    Sprinting, which is the very next thing even if another form of deterrent or force is learned.
    Pepper spray or an equivalent.
    A damn loud alarm...such as one of those "screaming memes" you can pick up at any truck stop that can wake the dead, or get a citizen a half a block down the street to look.
    A fire arm a 20 gauge shot gun for the home or a side arms .40 or smaller in size for on the street.
    Hand to hand for a few techniques to shock the victim long enough to run off.
    Due to your background, I'm sure you have much more experience in firearms than myself. However, I've found that the .40 has a recoil significantly stronger than the 9mm, and may be a bit unwieldy for smaller women, perhaps a 9mm would be a more suitable mark? Though, I agree with the 20 guage, it'd be nice to actually have walls in your house should you shoot the gun inside (12 guages can demolish a home quicker than a half ton wrecking ball).
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  6. #5  
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    Carrying a gun simply increases your chances of retaliation by bullet. You are always safer without that. Even a successful defense by gun may result in much more serious police response, in which the victim has to justify using a firearm.

    Lynx suggested a screamer, and I agree. There are devices now that are small enough to clip to the side of a hand bag, which squeal at 130 decibels when the button is pressed. It is almost impossible for an attacker to hang around with that noise, and he will only do it by putting hands over ears, which kinda limits his attack! It also attracts an awful lot of attention, including by the cops.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Carrying a gun simply increases your chances of retaliation by bullet. You are always safer without that. Even a successful defense by gun may result in much more serious police response, in which the victim has to justify using a firearm.

    Lynx suggested a screamer, and I agree. There are devices now that are small enough to clip to the side of a hand bag, which squeal at 130 decibels when the button is pressed. It is almost impossible for an attacker to hang around with that noise, and he will only do it by putting hands over ears, which kinda limits his attack! It also attracts an awful lot of attention, including by the cops.
    What about the ears of the person holding the screamer?
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It's a pretty generic question, situations depending a lot on situation such as home, on the street etc.
    Learning not to look like an easy mark.
    Learning to defuse a situation by talking.
    Sprinting, which is the very next thing even if another form of deterrent or force is learned.
    Pepper spray or an equivalent.
    A damn loud alarm...such as one of those "screaming memes" you can pick up at any truck stop that can wake the dead, or get a citizen a half a block down the street to look.
    you are correct, the question was generic. If you and others may like to discuss a more in depth conversation about this topic, I would be grateful.

    to start, looking like a mark. what is a mark?



    I would also like to expand on what techniques may be used for all or any multiple situations. However, I am not 100% sure how this may go. I'll, perhaps, post later on this matter. After I am better prepared. If others wish to jump start it, cool with me. I'll ring in some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    A fire arm a 20 gauge shot gun for the home or a side arms .40 or smaller in size for on the street.
    Hand to hand for a few techniques to shock the victim long enough to run off.
    Due to your background, I'm sure you have much more experience in firearms than myself. However, I've found that the .40 has a recoil significantly stronger than the 9mm, and may be a bit unwieldy for smaller women, perhaps a 9mm would be a more suitable mark? Though, I agree with the 20 guage, it'd be nice to actually have walls in your house should you shoot the gun inside (12 guages can demolish a home quicker than a half ton wrecking ball).
    There are tremendous issues with guns, including collateral damage, difficulty in shooting w/ adrenaline, and being completely useless if person(s) are within 15 feet (and the gun is not drawn).

    Otherwise, there are important things to know if considering a gun. I found these sites:
    http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-a-Fire...r-Home-Defense
    http://www.usacarry.com/what-gun-to-...-self-defense/
    http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/0...-home-defense/
    Last edited by chero; December 31st, 2013 at 08:59 PM.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    to start, looking like a mark. what is a mark?
    An easy target. Don't be alone, don't be in an low, low light, low populated area, don't be in shoes you can't run in, and most of all don't look distracted, don't look distracted, don't look distracted. Most teenagers fail the last point, and it's something I discuss with teenagers as ways to protect themselves.

    And of course I'm talking about self-defence for someone on the street.

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    Don't be alone, don't be in an low, low light, low populated area, don't be in shoes you can't run in, and most of all don't look distracted,
    Which many women hear as ... don't take a job or a course of study that finishes after dark, don't live with your family (or in the only area you can afford to live in), don't get tired at work, don't worry about your job, your essay deadline or anything at all.

    The one thing I'd say to everyone, kids included, is don't walk with both earphones in from your music player, leave one dangling so you can hear your surroundings. It's not just about the possibility of attack. It's being aware of traffic - you're more likely to be in the way of that car/ bike/ truck / bus you didn't hear when you stepped onto the road than physically assaulted. (Though this strategy means that you will hear all the insults and invitations to unwelcome intimate contact that are part of the daily routine for too many women.)
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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  11. #10  
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    Similar to screamers, are stinkbombs. The oily charge in these was developed purposely to debilitate rapists. It is the foulest odor possible, and at close range typically has an attacker doubled over and stumbling away while vomiting. Even microscopic droplets of the stuff enable police to hunt the man down. Of course the victim will get stunk too, an be equally debilitated by nausea. She'll also be unapproachable so immune to rape by other attackers. If you cynically believe women disdain this effective deterrent because they too-highly value smelling pleasant at all times, you're probably right.

    Hand-to-hand, the main thing is don't be afraid of his retaliation for hurting him. Rapists succeed when their victims are afraid to escalate the violence. But by no means "fight like a man" on his terms. Head-on, if your hand is anywhere near his face, the best defense is to claw his eyes. Try to scratch and gouge into the eyeballs with your nails. Grabbed from the side or behind, exploit your superior balance and relatively powerful legs by stomping down along his shin. Keep stomping until he lets go. Both these counterattacks are proven, and taught foremost in women's self-defense classes. Of course the testicles are a soft spot, though they're difficult to attack when a man's standing with legs close together. Otherwise, a sharp impact works best. Even if you can't crush the testicles against the groin, the sharpness of a blow will hurt tremendously.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Don't be alone, don't be in an low, low light, low populated area, don't be in shoes you can't run in, and most of all don't look distracted,
    Which many women hear as ... don't take a job or a course of study that finishes after dark, don't live with your family (or in the only area you can afford to live in), don't get tired at work, don't worry about your job, your essay deadline or anything at all.
    Yeah. Moreover, when fear causes empty streets the streets really become dangerous. Because then a lone walker is an isolated magnet. Positively, criminals don't like to operate where people pass by more often than the span of time their crime takes to commit. I encourage women - and everybody - to "take back the night" as far as one dares. The ultimate defense is to make the entire city well trafficked by good samaritans.
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  12. #11  
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    screamer aren't really meant to disable the attacker and most likely won't. (really no sound will and I've been directly under hovering harrier jets--it completely sucks, and probably accounted for a gap in my hearing, but it's NOT disabling). What it will do is surprise the attacker...which might be just enough time to get away...and gives the attackers a hard decision to make---does he continue knowing that the loud sound will likely draw attention or retreat and try another target.

    --
    I get what you saying Adelady, but reality sucks. With the discussion with teenagers it's about getting them to make good choices. Don't take that shortcut that makes you vulnerable to save two blocks of walking for example; it's ok to wait ten minutes so another can walk with you etc.

    Completely agree about the ear buds--they are dangerous for both not noticing traffic (more likely than getting mugs/raped) as well as looking distracted enough to attack etc.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; January 1st, 2014 at 03:00 AM.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    What about the ears of the person holding the screamer?
    She has to cover her ears with her hands, and she will still suffer. But that is better than being raped.

    Lynx is correct that a screamer will not stop a determined attacker, but it will still drive off most attackers. If not, help is likely to come.

    The very worst approach to self defense is to buy a hand gun. A paper in NEJM shows that simply owning a hand gun substantially increases your odds of getting murdered, and even more substantially increases the odds of a member of your family committing suicide.
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    What might someone do if they are in a bear hug?

    What might someone do if arms,legs are being held down to the ground (victim on ground)?

    What to do if there is a group of attackers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    screamer aren't really meant to disable the attacker and most likely won't. (really no sound will and I've been directly under hovering harrier jets--it completely sucks, and probably accounted for a gap in my hearing, but it's NOT disabling). What it will do is surprise the attacker...which might be just enough time to get away...and gives the attackers a hard decision to make---does he continue knowing that the loud sound will likely draw attention or retreat and try another target.
    Are there any noise makers in which sound will continue after being turned on and if the person's hands are no longer on the object?
    Seems like a collective person may just take the noise maker away and toss it. back to square one.

    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    She has to cover her ears with her hands, and she will still suffer. But that is better than being raped.
    Lynx is correct that a screamer will not stop a determined attacker, but it will still drive off most attackers. If not, help is likely to come.
    I would think the victim would need her hands for protecting her self, not covering her own ears. I have sensitive ears, but I've known people to stand right next to blaring speakers at concerts. with such uncertainty, the question goes to: how does it draw attention? At one punch, there is a chance no one will go or no one will find the origin of noise. that's my thought.
    ---------------------------------
    Last edited by chero; January 1st, 2014 at 11:36 AM.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    What are the best techniques of self defense for women (or anyone in general)?

    Ok well I guess this might seem kind of obvious, but it also happens to be true. People often get attacked because their attackers perceive them as being weak or incapable of defending themselves. With this in mind one answer to help reduce the chance of being attacked is simply to not appear weak, to this end a stong confident demeanour may work wonders.

    So I would suggest something like taking a few Krav Maga classes. This is a type of self defence that ultalises various styles of fighting and includes several martial arts.
    This could really help build confidence and will help develop that strong demeanour, which in itself may deter potential attackers, and will help to provide the basic skills of self defence required for emergency situations where an attacker won't back down.

    Really I would suggest these types of skills all day long over carrying actual weapons, remember a weapon can be taken off of somebody but also there is the question of whether the person is up to using a weapon and living with the potential consequences. Carrying weapons doesn't give people real confidence, that is only developed over time from skill and acheivement. So carrying weapons may not stop someone from still appearing weak or vunerable.

    On top of those reasons Krav Maga is also good for fitness, contritubing to a healthy lifestyle and is a social activity.
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    If a person is female, and small, they will appear defenseless. They cannot prevent that, no matter how confidently they stand or walk. Nor will most self defense classes allow a small and physically not strong woman stand up to a determined and much stronger male. She might think of such things as kicking in the groin, but that is easy to guard against, and one punch from a strong man, and she is on the ground unable to do anything.

    There are things she can do. Not walking alone. Carrying screamers or stink bombs. Or just relying on her own screams. Self defense classes can be counter-productive, by giving a woman more confidence than is justified, which is risky. If a woman has to walk alone where it is risky, she should carry a means of defense (not a gun) such as taser, pepper spray, screamer, stink bomb. Even a sachet of cayenne pepper which can be thrown into an assailant's face.

    Besides which, being accosted by a stranger is a lower probability risk. Statistically, the greatest risk is being attacked by someone she knows, in her own home. The most common form of rape (and the most under-reported) is date rape. Most rapes are, in fact, carried out by someone she knows.
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    Epinephrine.
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    The Israeli army uses Krav Maga to teach people how to defend themselves, many of these people are small females, yet they are trained not to look denfenceless and they most certainly are not. They learn to defend themselves very well, when it comes to combat size isn't everything.

    Confidence does not equal stupidity, just because people are confident doesn't mean they will take on more than they can handle, in fact proper training teaches people to actually understand what they can handle and how best to deal with any potential threat situations. It is also far better to go into a situation with training and knowledge than to actually suddenly be thrust into a life threatening situation and not a clue how to handle it.
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    Proper training of a small woman opposing a big man who is attacking her, involves running like hell if possible, or screaming like hell, or using a defensive measure like a screamer. Fighting back is possible only on rare occasions and requires the advantage of surprise. I am willing to bet that women training in self defense are not required to face a ruthless man smashing his fist into her face.
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    Statistically, a man is more likely to be assaulted on the street. Do you realize this?
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    Rape Statistics | Statistic Brain The majority of rape assaults are not done by strangers to their victims. While the advice here is essential, it is more likely that a woman or man will be raped/sexually assaulted by someone whom he/she knows on a more personal level. It is important to educate women and men to defending themselves in ALL situations, not just when he/she is out and about in a public setting. Now the info in the link is dated, but I found a few other sites dating back to 2008, and stats show that the vast majority of sexual assaults/rape are committed by someone who knew their victims on a personal level, to varying degrees.
    Last edited by wegs; January 1st, 2014 at 02:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The Israeli army uses Krav Maga to teach people how to defend themselves, many of these people are small females, yet they are trained not to look denfenceless and they most certainly are not. They learn to defend themselves very well, when it comes to combat size isn't everything.

    Confidence does not equal stupidity, just because people are confident doesn't mean they will take on more than they can handle, in fact proper training teaches people to actually understand what they can handle and how best to deal with any potential threat situations. It is also far better to go into a situation with training and knowledge than to actually suddenly be thrust into a life threatening situation and not a clue how to handle it.
    This is a great post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Ascended.

    If a person is female, and small, they will appear defenseless. They cannot prevent that, no matter how confidently they stand or walk. Nor will most self defense classes allow a small and physically not strong woman stand up to a determined and much stronger male. She might think of such things as kicking in the groin, but that is easy to guard against, and one punch from a strong man, and she is on the ground unable to do anything.

    There are things she can do. Not walking alone. Carrying screamers or stink bombs. Or just relying on her own screams. Self defense classes can be counter-productive, by giving a woman more confidence than is justified, which is risky. If a woman has to walk alone where it is risky, she should carry a means of defense (not a gun) such as taser, pepper spray, screamer, stink bomb. Even a sachet of cayenne pepper which can be thrown into an assailant's face.

    Besides which, being accosted by a stranger is a lower probability risk. Statistically, the greatest risk is being attacked by someone she knows, in her own home. The most common form of rape (and the most under-reported) is date rape. Most rapes are, in fact, carried out by someone she knows.
    This is a very insightfu post, too. I posted my reply after just reading your comment here, especially as it relates to your last line. Yes, the stats prove this. I will say however, that if a woman is properly trained in self defense, and is physically strong (despite her size), she could use this to her advantage to at least attempt to mometarily pause her attacker, and then run. The grim reality though is people who choose to sexually/physically assault others are often psychopathic, and combatting such a person, will prove to be a dfficult challenge for anyone, even someone skilled in self defense.

    I’m female, and my own advice to women (and men) as it relates to the OT…stay in good physical condition. You never know when you may have to run for your life, etc…so, treat your body well…at a minimum, keep it conditioned and strong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Nor will most self defense classes allow a small and physically not strong woman stand up to a determined and much stronger male. She might think of such things as kicking in the groin, but that is easy to guard against, and one punch from a strong man, and she is on the ground unable to do anything.
    While a one day self defense class might not allow a woman to defend herself in such a situation, she also has the opportunity to learn more. I know a few women with black belts (one of whom is 5'2") who would quickly disable any man who tried to assault her, no matter what his strength or size. (True for men as well.) While there was often a lot of discussion as to how to do this - take out a knee and then run? Kick him in the nuts then the neck when he bent over? - the outcome wasn't in doubt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I know a few women with black belts (one of whom is 5'2") who would quickly disable any man who tried to assault her, no matter what his strength or size. (True for men as well.) While there was often a lot of discussion as to how to do this - take out a knee and then run? Kick him in the nuts then the neck when he bent over? - the outcome wasn't in doubt.
    Are there ANY studies which actually support this. I got to know a couple defense instructor in the Army as well as Black Belt Taekwondo instructors when my wife was taking it for a couple years (she got to brown belt before having problems that turned out to be Muscular dystrophy). All were of the opinion that it might give one a single shot to escape form an opponent but would NOT disable a much stronger opponent, regardless of respective skills. A real fight is not Hollywood--it's a bit more like ultimate fighting with even fewer rules.

    --
    Just for completeness, stun guns pretty effect, and still legel some places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    I know a few women with black belts (one of whom is 5'2") who would quickly disable any man who tried to assault her, no matter what his strength or size. (True for men as well.) While there was often a lot of discussion as to how to do this - take out a knee and then run? Kick him in the nuts then the neck when he bent over? - the outcome wasn't in doubt.
    Are there ANY studies which actually support this. I got to know a couple defense instructor in the Army as well as Black Belt Taekwondo instructors when my wife was taking it for a couple years (she got to brown belt before having problems that turned out to be Muscular dystrophy). All were of the opinion that it might give one a single shot to escape from an opponent but would NOT disable a much stronger opponent, regardless of respective skills. A real fight is not Hollywood--it's a bit more like ultimate fighting with even fewer rules.
    to add to this.
    My instructors in Karate did say the same. This was their emphasis into why we should know more than one technique actually. Not all guys respond to nut shots the same way.

    I played soccer and have been hit by the ball over the body, one hitting my face - causing it to become numb. However, a soccer ball at the same velocity to the lower region had little effect in terms of complete numbness and being unable to continue play. As my instructors added, some men become more enraged due to such attempts.
    --
    Just for completeness, stun guns pretty effect, and still legel some places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    What might someone do if they are in a bear hug?
    Twist sidewise and away, and begin stomping your heel down his shin.

    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    What might someone do if arms,legs are being held down to the ground (victim on ground)?
    A man does not have enough hands to hold all your arms and legs. With both hands occupied he can't well prevent you forcing a knee between his thighs. You want to wrap your own legs around one of his, so he can't get into a missionary position or sit on your waist.

    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    What to do if there is a group of attackers?
    Identify the leader and make the fight between you and him, not you vs. the group. Appeal to the sympathies of the others i.e. "He's hurting me!" With luck one may say something to limit the attack, or at least they'll only watch the attack.
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    So much bulldust.

    If a bigger and stronger man attacks a weaker woman, all he needs to do is land one punch in her belly or on her face, and she is helpless, no matter how many black belts she might have. If a woman trained in fighting uses the advantage of surprise, she might knock him back enough to run away, but that is about the best she can hope for.

    As Lynx pointed out, this is not Hollywood, in which a gorgeous, slim female film star fights her way past a bunch of men. This is reality, and being bigger and stronger is vital.
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    I would say Krav Maga + Judo.

    KM for striking.

    Judo for throws without going down to the ground with the opponent as in Jiu Jitsu. A girl who drills takedowns can take down a man who doesn't.

    These sports are not risk free and require some work.

    Judo classes involve almost full contact sparring / grappling called "Randori".

    Of course the best self defense is what others have already said: be aware of your surroundings and do not let anyone who looks sketchy get near you. Criminals often try to "close the distance" with some innocuous question or favor. If you see this, run. It is better to run 10 times than to be attacked once.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    So much bulldust.
    this is not Hollywood This is reality
    Er, this is what's taught in women's self defense classes. Okay I've personally just watched the videos. Please don't call that advice bulldust unless you can prove better.

    And what's your point giving women the message they're physically "helpless" against men?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post

    And what's your point giving women the message they're physically "helpless" against men?
    The point is to protect them. Unrealistic expectations will lead them into disaster. As I said, a single punch is enough to make all that self defense training quite moot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    A real fight is not Hollywood--it's a bit more like ultimate fighting with even fewer rules.
    Agreed. Hence the importance of actual, one-on-one training.

    All were of the opinion that it might give one a single shot to escape form an opponent but would NOT disable a much stronger opponent, regardless of respective skills.
    Interesting; we thought the opposite. It's not hard to get one good shot in (a surprise blow to the head, a knife in the back etc) but once the element of surprise is gone - it would be very hard to get past their guard. Sparring (a big part of martial arts training) is essentially not letting people get past your guard.
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    If a bigger and stronger man attacks a weaker woman, all he needs to do is land one punch in her belly or on her face, and she is helpless, no matter how many black belts she might have.
    Right. Now try to land one punch on, say, Charlotte (a woman we trained with years ago.) You'd end up with a dislocated knee - or worse.

    If a woman trained in fighting uses the advantage of surprise, she might knock him back enough to run away, but that is about the best she can hope for.
    Again, the opposite is true. In general surprise works against people with self defense training, because until they are aware of the threat they are almost as vulnerable as anyone else. Once they're aware of it, they are going to have days (or months, or years) of training to fall back on, all centered around not letting you get that "one big punch" in.

    As Lynx pointed out, this is not Hollywood, in which a gorgeous, slim female film star fights her way past a bunch of men. This is reality . . .
    Exactly. And in reality, a big guy is going to walk up to a mousy looking woman thinking she is easy prey. He'd threaten her and she'd walk away. He would grab her arm, she would break his wrist. (Not because it's Hollywood, but because that's what she has trained to do.) What does he do next, in the real world?
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    We obviously need data which we don't have....though I'd be very much surprised if this subject hadn't been studied.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    So much bulldust.

    If a bigger and stronger man attacks a weaker woman, all he needs to do is land one punch in her belly or on her face, and she is helpless, no matter how many black belts she might have. If a woman trained in fighting uses the advantage of surprise, she might knock him back enough to run away, but that is about the best she can hope for.

    As Lynx pointed out, this is not Hollywood, in which a gorgeous, slim female film star fights her way past a bunch of men. This is reality, and being bigger and stronger is vital.
    This thinking does give the female a considerable advantage. Of course it is best to avoid the fight. However, a person who thinks this way will leave themselves wide open to a counter attack.

    Once I attended a class because I knew the school worked more on takedowns than I had been doing. Two people challenged me. The first was a guy with 20+ pounds on me, and the second was a girl that I had about 40 pounds on.

    Both successfully took me down even though I was expecting the attack and was prepared to defend it.

    I eventually escaped from both of them. However, it took me longer to escape from the girl than it did from the guy.

    I felt better about how long it took me to escape the girl's attack when the next week I over heard a guy with 20-30 pounds on me say he was avoiding sparring (grappling) with the girl because she was going too hard and making the risk of injury too high for him -- and he was training for competition.

    So a girl with training can definitely take down someone who does not train.
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    The big advantage of martial arts training is that it teaches, at a gut level, one vital lesson: Do not stop fighting because you are hurt or fear being hurt. You can keep on inflicting damage even when you are in pain. When I was being taught Judo my instructor cautioned us that "all bets are off if you are facing a boxer". Not that boxers have such great moves, they are in shape and will have a serious punch in them, but most important they expect to be hurt and to keep on hurting you anyway.

    One way for a weaker person to survive an unavoidable conflict is to be crazy. I mean an intentional adoption of an irrational position. Expect to die. Plan to do as much damage as possible before you are killed. Intend to kill your opponent. No half measures. It is not about him backing off. You will not stop when he is down, if he goes down, you will kill him. If you have a gun you will empty the magazine into your opponent. If you have a knife you will just keep on stabbing until your opponent is very dead, or runs away. As a cop of my aquaintance put it, " better to be judged by 12 than carried by six."

    This approach is the opposit of all sport fighting. It is not about "who is Boss" or any form of dominence or position or ranking. This mama bear fighting. She is going to eliminate a precieved threat to her cubs. She attacks without concern for her own survival.


    If you go with this option, you do not allow yourself to engage in lesser levels of conflict. If you fight at all, you kill or are killed. This is a very dangerous position to take, dangerous for all around you. You are not safe to "horse around "with. This is putting yourself in berserker mode. A mere predator will avoid conflict with you. Perdators want to enjoy the benifits of victory. The whole point of this stratagy is that there will be no benifits of victory. If you are raped it will be because the rapist enjoys necro!

    This is not a permanent mind set, only one you adopt when conflict is unavoidable. Adopting it all the time would get you hospitalized in a rubber room.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post

    And what's your point giving women the message they're physically "helpless" against men?
    The point is to protect them. Unrealistic expectations will lead them into disaster. As I said, a single punch is enough to make all that self defense training quite moot.
    Everyone has a plan until they get hit. My Sensei said that a lot. for someone who might never fought before, one punch can sure take a lot out of them. when you least expect. That's when it takes effect, a tragic twist to alter fate. Instinct is to deny, logic does not apply, in time we learn, but it's too late.
    Blunt force trauma to the head. Even the best fighters are helpless against it.

    There are ways to prevent it though. and that is what self defense training is. a prevention. a fight can be stopped before it happens, along with any sexual assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    What to do if there is a group of attackers?
    Identify the leader and make the fight between you and him, not you vs. the group. Appeal to the sympathies of the others i.e. "He's hurting me!" With luck one may say something to limit the attack, or at least they'll only watch the attack.
    True, the leader or the toughest guy amongst a group is ideal to fight. that is strategy. But finding that guy is hard. its not always the first to attack or initiate. its not the biggest among the group either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    This thinking does give the female a considerable advantage. Of course it is best to avoid the fight. However, a person who thinks this way will leave themselves wide open to a counter attack.

    Once I attended a class because I knew the school worked more on takedowns than I had been doing. Two people challenged me. The first was a guy with 20+ pounds on me, and the second was a girl that I had about 40 pounds on.

    Both successfully took me down even though I was expecting the attack and was prepared to defend it.

    I eventually escaped from both of them. However, it took me longer to escape from the girl than it did from the guy.

    I felt better about how long it took me to escape the girl's attack when the next week I over heard a guy with 20-30 pounds on me say he was avoiding sparring (grappling) with the girl because she was going too hard and making the risk of injury too high for him -- and he was training for competition.

    So a girl with training can definitely take down someone who does not train.
    One of the greatest stories I heard was about the samurai and the thief. A theif was sentenced to death for stealing from the region's lord/noble. A samurai who had been watching stopped the "ceremony" asking if he could fight the thief instead. well the people looked at him in confusion.

    the samurai looked at the thief and then to those who made judgement saying, "I want to test a new sword. He is sentenced to die anyways." An argument persisted after such statement, but eventually the samurai got his way.

    After relocating, the samurai took out his blade...then gave one to the thief. the thief bagged not to fight, saying that he knew nothing about it. He had never fought. the samurai talked to the thief. "You were not aware of this, but if you win you are free. They agreed to let you go." The thief was in disbelief. Eventually the two men understood each other, raised their blades and began their battle.

    The samurai would deliver the final blow, cutting his enemy. A man nearby came up to congratulate the now tired swordsman. "you were remarkable."
    "No," responded the samurai, "if that man had known technique, I would have died."

    The story identifies the importance of technique, but heart and mind set before that. All the matches I ever lost was because of disinterest. even when I wanted to win.
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    Many years ago I did a year of boxing training. While I am not a fighter and will avoid a fight if I can, my father insisted.

    One thing I learned is that, if I was required to fight a stronger guy, I could not block his punches. We wore gloves, so I never got seriously hurt, but blocking punches just meant my own arm hit me. A weak woman blocking a strong man's punches will not work. She might gain time by dodging blows, but it only takes one.

    The whole point really, is that fighting is the worst possible defense. Avoid a fight almost at all costs. Screaming works well in most situations. So does pepper spray and audio alarms. Even a trained woman can be downed with a single punch, and those punches cannot be blocked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Even a trained woman can be downed with a single punch, and those punches cannot be blocked.
    Don't know what to tell you. Many of the women I trained with could block anything thrown at them. Even the small ones. I've seen them do it.

    (Note that "block" does not mean "stop." It generally means "deflect." The objective of a block is not to keep your opponent from swinging, it is just to make sure his or her aim is just a bit off.)

    The whole point really, is that fighting is the worst possible defense. Avoid a fight almost at all costs. Screaming works well in most situations. So does pepper spray and audio alarms.
    Definitely agreed there. Avoiding a fight is the best way to win it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    So much bulldust.

    If a bigger and stronger man attacks a weaker woman, all he needs to do is land one punch in her belly or on her face, and she is helpless, no matter how many black belts she might have. If a woman trained in fighting uses the advantage of surprise, she might knock him back enough to run away, but that is about the best she can hope for.

    As Lynx pointed out, this is not Hollywood, in which a gorgeous, slim female film star fights her way past a bunch of men. This is reality, and being bigger and stronger is vital.
    Perhaps more than knock the man back. Eye gouge, kick to the pants, impact on the throat, even a strong kick to the kidney area could disable a large man for significant time to land other blows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Identify the leader and make the fight between you and him, not you vs. the group.
    True, the leader or the toughest guy amongst a group is ideal to fight. that is strategy. But finding that guy is hard. its not always the first to attack or initiate. its not the biggest among the group either.
    I guess your combat strategy is good, but what I meant was limiting the number of attackers. Maybe the "leader" of the attack is the twerp of the group, I mean the instigator. Saying "You guys..." in this scenario is wrong because it draws them together. You want the instigator to be acting alone and maybe even subject to criticism by his buddies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    One thing I learned is that, if I was required to fight a stronger guy, I could not block his punches. We wore gloves, so I never got seriously hurt, but blocking punches just meant my own arm hit me. A weak woman blocking a strong man's punches will not work. She might gain time by dodging blows, but it only takes one.
    That's not a block in every system. It would still be considered "taking a hit" in karate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    This thinking does give the female a considerable advantage. Of course it is best to avoid the fight. However, a person who thinks this way will leave themselves wide open to a counter attack.

    Once I attended a class because I knew the school worked more on takedowns than I had been doing. Two people challenged me. The first was a guy with 20+ pounds on me, and the second was a girl that I had about 40 pounds on.

    Both successfully took me down even though I was expecting the attack and was prepared to defend it.

    I eventually escaped from both of them. However, it took me longer to escape from the girl than it did from the guy.

    I felt better about how long it took me to escape the girl's attack when the next week I over heard a guy with 20-30 pounds on me say he was avoiding sparring (grappling) with the girl because she was going too hard and making the risk of injury too high for him -- and he was training for competition.

    So a girl with training can definitely take down someone who does not train.
    One of the greatest stories I heard was about the samurai and the thief. A theif was sentenced to death for stealing from the region's lord/noble. A samurai who had been watching stopped the "ceremony" asking if he could fight the thief instead. well the people looked at him in confusion.

    the samurai looked at the thief and then to those who made judgement saying, "I want to test a new sword. He is sentenced to die anyways." An argument persisted after such statement, but eventually the samurai got his way.

    After relocating, the samurai took out his blade...then gave one to the thief. the thief bagged not to fight, saying that he knew nothing about it. He had never fought. the samurai talked to the thief. "You were not aware of this, but if you win you are free. They agreed to let you go." The thief was in disbelief. Eventually the two men understood each other, raised their blades and began their battle.

    The samurai would deliver the final blow, cutting his enemy. A man nearby came up to congratulate the now tired swordsman. "you were remarkable."
    "No," responded the samurai, "if that man had known technique, I would have died."

    The story identifies the importance of technique, but heart and mind set before that. All the matches I ever lost was because of disinterest. even when I wanted to win.
    Good story. The lesson can be applied to a lot of areas of life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    What are the best techniques of self defense for women (or anyone in general)?
    Quite a loaded question. After the replys (skimmed) I gotta say. A bunch of this is bad advice.

    Screamers. Very much worthless. Firstly, Have you ever heard a car alarm go off? How many people do you see frantically running to investigate, to stop the car-jacker and prevent theft? Nearly everyone just keeps on walking without barely batting an eye. Granted, you hear much more car alarms than a rape whistle(which is all a screamer is) but same effect.

    Secondly, buy one. I have(best i could find), if you never have before its loud but its no where near debilitating. Its, at best, annoying. It would do nothing to deter anyone. You are placing your entire self defense in the idea that hopefully someone will hear it and hopefully has the balls to come help you. Very low on the self defense scale.



    Stun guns: Better, but still a bad idea. You must be within arms reach of your attacker for these to do anything. If they are that close, you need to be stabbing them. Not stunning them. I looked at some today and the guy demonstrating showed a safety feature where if it was taken from you the stun would no longer work and thus "couldn't be used against you." to which i replied "yeah, but now have a nice block of solid plastic to bash your head in with"(and if im feeling mean, rehook the safety feature and start shocking you) there is no self defense weapon that cant be used against you. A knife is much better if you know how to use it.

    Martial arts: Much better idea, Krav maga is an excellent suggestion because there is no fluff. They train you to fight in the streets, fight dirty. Kick em in the balls, blind them, whatever you must do. Self defense is not sparing on the mat. Self defense is low down, dirty, do WHATEVER it takes to live to see another day.



    Firearms: Absolutely best idea. I do not see why anyone is against these. Guns are the great equalizer. It doesnt matter if you are a 90yr old woman or a hulking 250lbs of solid muscle. Getting hit with a bullet is not fun. It is an equalizer. I guarantee you, the bad guy has no issues at all caring a gun. I suggest getting the biggest caliber with the most ammo you are comfortable shooting & carrying on a daily basis.

    guns require training, if you cant hit what you are shooting then you just have a loud screamer. However all self defense requires training. For a woman, do not put it in your purse. It belongs on your waist and need to be trained where you can draw it in a heart beat, fire where you intend to shoot.

    When I train with mine. I face away from the target. I have my friend blow a whistle. I turn, draw and execute a mozambique drill (2 chest, 1 head) trying to shave off nano-seconds each time. This is advanced but its something to work up to.

    Firearm is the absolute tops when it comes to self defense. If however you cannot carry a gun (due to stupid laws) or just flat our refuse (moral objections)


    Pepperspray. This requires less training because it requires less accuracy. Training will mostly involve how fast you can deploy it under stress. A good can of fog spray will give you a good 20ft distance. Distance is your friend. Its easy to use and if you have objections about killing this is the best solution. It wont bring down everyone, but it will bring down most 95-99% of the population. I highly highly recommenced Fox Labs International - Pepper Spray, Mace - Most Intense Pepper Spray Available I did tons of research back in the day. This is the absolute most premo I have found. Remember though, the smaller the can the less spray you get.

    That is my recommendation. Get yourself a gun(if at all possible) Get training. Get a knife, get training. Get pepperspray, get training. Invest in a solid, street applicable martial art with no frills (krav maga) get training.


    I live self defense daily. Im no slouch, no-one in there right mind would mess with me. However if they did, I personally do not leave the house without atleast 2 guns on me(usually 3) and 4-7 knifes + a can of pepperspray & sometimes a solid wooden cane. Every time. Every, single, time. your weapon of choice does absolutely no good sitting at home in your dresser.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    Firearms: Absolutely best idea. I do not see why anyone is against these.
    Well to play demon's advocate: Hi I'm a Canadian rapist. When I go out stalking, I never carry a gun. What's the point? None of my victims have guns. They don't even have knives to threaten me. So I know if I can't overpower my victims, I'll just run away unhurt. Cops search me - I'm clean.


    GoldenRatio, if you care more for your own protection, than the arms race that puts criminals into... I mean care more for yourself than your neighbour, yeah tell the guy who's going to rob my house he'd better point a gun at my head and be ready to pull the trigger. Thanks.
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    I personally do not leave the house without atleast 2 guns on me(usually 3) and 4-7 knifes + a can of pepperspray & sometimes a solid wooden cane. Every time. Every, single, time. your weapon of choice does absolutely no good sitting at home in your dresser.
    Does anyone invite you into their home ?

    - for lunch, or a neighbour's BBQ, or a party, or where there are children, or anywhere there is alcohol ?

    I realise I'm Australian so I'm totally unused to the idea of people carrying guns, but I wouldn't allow anyone into close contact with my friends or family or clients of my business carrying any weapons at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    - for lunch, or a neighbour's BBQ, or a party, or where there are children, or anywhere there is alcohol ?
    yep, it's a matter of culture. At least half the parties I've been to had all that and guns...heck a good number of times part of the party would firing at the bottle range behind the house. Pretty much standard in small town rural America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I personally do not leave the house without atleast 2 guns on me(usually 3) and 4-7 knifes + a can of pepperspray & sometimes a solid wooden cane. Every time. Every, single, time. your weapon of choice does absolutely no good sitting at home in your dresser.
    Does anyone invite you into their home ?

    - for lunch, or a neighbour's BBQ, or a party, or where there are children, or anywhere there is alcohol ?

    I realise I'm Australian so I'm totally unused to the idea of people carrying guns, but I wouldn't allow anyone into close contact with my friends or family or clients of my business carrying any weapons at all.
    yep, all the time. I dont wonder around town looking like rambo. All the weapons are hidden. Its not like a go to a BBQ and decide to whip my glock 27 out. or chase the kids around with the ruger lcp.

    at best, every now and then someone who is looking will see one knife clipped to my pocket. Thats it. (cane is usually for moronic places that dont allow you to have weapons, like government buildings.)

    as far as what pong said. If you can run away im all for it, that would be the best solution for any encounter. If you have the ability to safely walk or run away thats cool. If you cant then thats where everything else comes into play. If your attacker is faster than you, then you need to have a backup plan.

    I also do not consider running away self defense. Its an excellent thing to do, if you can get away thats awesome. But it should be only 1 option in your arsenal of choices.
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    Re guns.

    Worst idea out, bar none!!!!

    Superficially they seem to be a good idea, but only till you look at the statistics. The New England Journal of Medicine, which is one of the world's most reputable medical journals, had a couple research papers on the effects of owning firearms. If you want a gun to fend off a rapist, it has to be a hand gun , since you cannot go around carrying a long gun everywhere.

    Well, the statistics are revealing. Simply owning a hand gun means.
    1. Your chances of being murdered immediately double. If you are a woman, that murder will most probably be by your male partner. And he will use your hand gun to kill you.
    2. If you have children, owning a hand gun will increase the probability that one of them will successfully suicide by a factor of double to ten times (depends on how securely you store the gun). If your child suicides with your hand gun, you will have to live with the knowledge that you killed him/her.

    There was another study, in which hand gun ownership state by state was estimated from survey data. Overall homicide rate correlated closely with hand gun ownership. Since the USA is the only western nation with lots of hand guns in civilian ownership, and half of all murders are done with hand guns, and the USA has four times the per capita murder rate of almost any other western nation, then the wisdom of having hand guns around the place starts to look very sick indeed.
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    Firearms: Absolutely best idea. I do not see why anyone is against these.
    Because statistically you are more likely to die if you own one.

    Every, single, time. your weapon of choice does absolutely no good sitting at home in your dresser.
    It does even less good when a mugger points your own weapon at you - at which point all you have done with the remaining guns you are carrying is giving free guns to his friends.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Because statistically you are more likely to die if you own one.
    Your statistically more likely to be involved in a vehicular accident if you own an automobile. Your also statistically more likely to die in a plane crash if you get on airplanes. Statistically you are more likely to drown if you go swimming. Your statistically more likely to suffocate to death if you engage in autoerotic asphyxiation. Whats your point?

    Well, the statistics are revealing. Simply owning a hand gun means.
    1. Your chances of being murdered immediately double. If you are a woman, that murder will most probably be by your male partner. And he will use your hand gun to kill you.
    2. If you have children, owning a hand gun will increase the probability that one of them will successfully suicide by a factor of double to ten times (depends on how securely you store the gun). If your child suicides with your hand gun, you will have to live with the knowledge that you killed him/her.
    First, I would love to see sources for these stats. as I can offer plenty opposing these claims so would love to see where you get yours from.

    Secondly, if you are living with a boyfriend who is prone to murdering you. your problem is not weather or not you own a gun, your problem is sleeping with abusive psychotic men.

    As far as children. Locking them up is not hard. Gun locks are damn cheap. However a much better method is training your child to use a gun. I personally do not have children but if i did. I would make sure they knew how to use every firearm better than I do. They would be taught it is a weapon and not a toy, That it is a powerful lethal tool that must be respected at all times. Parents who do this, do not have children who run around with daddys Saturday special playing cowboys and indians with there friends.

    You teach your kids what it is and they are not to touch it unless supervised. It removes the mystery and wonder. They no longer want to sample the forbidden fruit once they understand what it is.

    In closing however. I personally, do not really care. It is my advice and everyone on the internet has an opinion. Follow it or dont it wont affect me. However i would highly suggest doing your own research instead of taking the word of anyone off a forum on what is proper. Good starting point, very far from the finish line when it comes to a quest for knowledge.
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    I already told you the source of those statistics. Two research papers published in New England Journal of Medicine.

    On spousal murder.
    30% of all murders in the USA are from a person killing his or her love partner. Usually a man killing a woman. If a hand gun is found in that home, the odds of such a killing immediately double.

    The whole point of all this is that, if you own a hand gun for self defense, it is statistically self defeating, because it increases your overall risk, rather than doing what you suggested, making you safer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    as far as what pong said. If you can run away im all for it...
    You didn't understand , my poor explanation. I'll try again, first question:

    Why do you think it is that criminals in Canada rarely use guns? I assure you they can be got here, not much harder than getting crack or whatever. Why do our criminals choose not to arm themselves when planning crimes? Crimes such as demanding all the cash from a store till.

    Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    Your statistically more likely to be involved in a vehicular accident if you own an automobile.
    True. However, many people have the illusion that guns will protect them from violence when in fact it increases their odds of dying a violent death. No one would say "I don't want to die as a result of flying so I will fly frequently" yet people regularly say "I don't want to die a violent death so I will get a gun."

    Secondly, if you are living with a boyfriend who is prone to murdering you. your problem is not weather or not you own a gun, your problem is sleeping with abusive psychotic men.
    Definitely! Again, too many women think "I am at risk for violence; I'll get a gun to protect me." They are much better off avoiding the problem to begin with.

    As far as children. Locking them up is not hard. Gun locks are damn cheap. However a much better method is training your child to use a gun. I personally do not have children but if i did. I would make sure they knew how to use every firearm better than I do.
    That's an excellent plan, but is not too effective for (say) 3 year olds. And unfortunately the death rate for kids under 5 from accidental gun deaths has been climbing. To combat that the only thing that works is keeping guns locked away where children absolutely cannot access them. Many people are unwilling to do this because they feel it will make the gun unavailable if someone does come into the house. Again, they are making a poor tradeoff; the risk of someone coming into the house and harming them or their family vs. the much higher risk of a child getting hold of a gun and shooting themselves or someone else.
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    The problem with any weapon, is that some folks thing that showing the weapon will be a deterrent.
    Idiocy by anyother name would still be idiocy.

    The best defense, is constant awareness of one's surroundings, and a plan of what to do if the situation seems to warrant action.
    Fear produces strength and speed via adrenaline and associated chemicals. If one has a plan, then that will be the action, damned fast. Absent a plan or araweness, there is no really good defense.

    Personally, when I knew that someone carried a weapon, I just quit associating with that person.
    Most who carry and show are fools who invite danger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    ......

    That is my recommendation. Get yourself a gun(if at all possible) Get training. Get a knife, get training. Get pepperspray, get training. Invest in a solid, street applicable martial art with no frills (krav maga) get training.


    I live self defense daily. Im no slouch, no-one in there right mind would mess with me. However if they did, I personally do not leave the house without atleast 2 guns on me(usually 3) and 4-7 knifes + a can of pepperspray & sometimes a solid wooden cane. Every time. Every, single, time. your weapon of choice does absolutely no good sitting at home in your dresser.
    thank you for your input.

    how do you conduct yourself in public?



    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    That's an excellent plan, but is not too effective for (say) 3 year olds. And unfortunately the death rate for kids under 5 from accidental gun deaths has been climbing. To combat that the only thing that works is keeping guns locked away where children absolutely cannot access them. Many people are unwilling to do this because they feel it will make the gun unavailable if someone does come into the house. Again, they are making a poor tradeoff; the risk of someone coming into the house and harming them or their family vs. the much higher risk of a child getting hold of a gun and shooting themselves or someone else.
    I think this is harder to quantify then many believe. what statistics don't say is what the child's concept of guns are, what the parent's idea or purpose of guns are, how the parents view weapons in general, and the cultural upbringing.

    in sight of that, anyone can say or beg the question...what was that kid doing with the gun? why did he think it was a toy?

    on the flip side, there are incidents in which owning a gun did or could have made a difference.

    it seems to be a case by case issue in which we must make our own decision. in that case, what ever that decision is - we must live with the consequence ourselves.
    Last edited by chero; January 7th, 2014 at 10:07 AM.
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    The problem extends way past just kids. Take teenagers, for example. The teens are a time of high suicide danger. Yet a teen is smart enough to remove a hand gun from almost any hiding place, or semi-secure location, to play with it. If a teen is feeling suicidal, and there is a hand gun in the house, in anything less than a fully secure gun safe, you will have a tragedy and a dead teenager. The parent who owned that gun has to live with the knowledge that it was his/her idiocy that caused the teen's death.

    If there is no gun in the house, there is a very strong chance that the teenager will settle for a largely ineffective method of attempting suicide (drug overdose is the most common method tried and has a 98% survival rate) and will survive. With a gun, there is very little chance of survival, and even if the teen scores the 10% chance of not dying, he or she will probably be brain damaged for life.
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    Had mostly left this thread but since the OP is curious I will jump back in.

    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    ......

    That is my recommendation. Get yourself a gun(if at all possible) Get training. Get a knife, get training. Get pepperspray, get training. Invest in a solid, street applicable martial art with no frills (krav maga) get training.


    I live self defense daily. Im no slouch, no-one in there right mind would mess with me. However if they did, I personally do not leave the house without atleast 2 guns on me(usually 3) and 4-7 knifes + a can of pepperspray & sometimes a solid wooden cane. Every time. Every, single, time. your weapon of choice does absolutely no good sitting at home in your dresser.
    thank you for your input.

    how do you conduct yourself in public?
    Quite well IMO. About like anyone else. I go to town, do what I do. Try my hardest to ignore the mass of mindless zombies walking around. Its rare I talk to anyone else beyond the cashier of a friendly "how are you doing?"

    In my state (texas) we have no open carry & showing your firearm in public is considered brandishing which is a crime. Thus if you intend to pull one out, it better be to use it.

    I will post my own stats later on today but for now i need to run to town.
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    Gun prevalence and suicide rank by state | HSPH News | Harvard School of Public Health

    To golden ratio

    The reference above, from Harvard University, shows that the American states with the most guns also have the most suicides. Least guns means least number of suicides.

    Keeping a gun is a way to increase suicide risk. Keeping a gun is not smart.
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    maybe, skeptic, you're just a tad biased on this issue?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    maybe, skeptic, you're just a tad biased on this issue?
    Everything he's said about increased risk is well supported in the limited US studies about guns in the home. What's not addressed are means to mitigate some of those risk--such as just putting a gun out of sight in a home dramatically lowers some of the risk for use of that gun by suicide. We'd know more if Congress hadn't continued to block all federal research, about gun ownership and restricted federal agencies from public education related to gun safety more than 20 years ago--despite it being one of the lead causes of deaths among young people.

    Though I'm gun advocate, having been around them my entire life and personally used for defending myself in and out of uniform, our current approach prevents serious efforts to reduce the risk while still being allows gun ownership--it's morally reprehensible.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; January 7th, 2014 at 04:43 PM.
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    Maybe. But it is possible to be biased and still be correct. The hard data I have seen on the issue indicates that more guns means more deaths.

    This is actually clearer with homicides than with suicides, because there are many other factors modifying suicide rate. Japan has a high suicide rate (mainly by hanging) despite a lack of guns, because they have a suicide culture. But with homicides, the relationship is sharp.

    If you look at gun ownership, the USA has the highest rate in the world, by a large margin. It also has the highest (by far) homicide rate in the OECD nations. The second highest homicide rate in the OECD is Finland, which is the fourth largest gun ownership globally. The lowest homicide rate is Japan, which has the lowest gun ownership. Other nations fall into intermediate categories according to gun ownership. For example, Canada, which has a lot more guns than most OECD nations, is also one of the highest murder rates in the OECD, though well below the USA.

    FBI statistics show about 9,000 gun homicides in the USA each year, and about 200 people killed each year with guns in clear self defense cases. The lives saved are minimal compared to lives lost. The main culprit in homicides is and guns, rather than the assault rifles which get so much publicity. In fact, there are 4,000 homicides in the USA each year which arise from two men arguing, till one loses his temper and pulls out a hand gun and shoots the other guy.

    Basically, hand guns are bad news. I am opposed to hand guns, because I am opposed to people dying before their time.
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    a gun does not increase suicide risk. It simply makes it easier & more effective than other means.

    If someone puts a gun in there mouth and pulls the trigger, game over. There are very very few instances of survival when this happens. You get no second chance. Its instantaneous, at worse it takes a few minutes while you bleed out but you die just the same. Little medical intervention will help if you suffer from a case of scrambled brains.

    On the other hand, if you decide to cut your wrists, Its going to take a good while to bleed out, more than enough time for you to seek medical help or even just apply pressure till the bleeding stops
    Same thing with swallowing a bottle of pills. you have about 30 minutes for they even begin to enter your system. Plenty of time to throw up, get your stomach pumped, and get other medical treatment to stay alive.
    Hanging, if done right will snap your neck and fairly instantaneous but that's hard to do if all you have is half a foot from the rafter to the floor with the rope attached. you can still struggle, if your strong enough can pull yourself up. have a knife in your pocket you can cut yourself down.
    Jumping off a building, requires a building of course. Your roof will just land you in the hospital with a shattered femur.

    Guns however. They are extremely easy to kill with. Thats there purpose, thats what they are designed to do. 3lbs of pressure on the trigger and your done. No suffering, no screaming in pain or waiting to die. a closed casket & a mess for the maid thats it.

    Thus, guns are used in more suicides because its easier & more effective. It doesn't increase the suicide risk, it just increases the fatality. Attempts will still be made with knifes and pills, its just harder to finish the job with them

    WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports <This is the CDC website which tracks deaths. Query for whatever you like

    Set for 2010 suicide rates. 38k out of 308 million. so about 0.12% of all Americans commit suicide yearly.
    19k was by firearm
    19k was by other means. So, around 50/50. 50 to firearm, 50 to all other causes.

    For just pre adults 0-18 suicides were 2k out of 83m. Firearms were 749. 1k for everything else. again, about 50/50

    Which tells me, if someone is going to kill themselves. They will find away. guns are just easier.



    Here is another fact website I like (mostly because it has sources. check em yourself)
    Guns in America | Facts and statistics about firearms in the USA

    Another good 1 It shows that places with the strictest gun control have the highest amount of violent crimes.
    Gun Control - Just Facts

    Finally in closing. Criminals do not care about laws, thats why they are criminals. They will own a gun legally or illegally and they have no problem using it against you. Having one of your own levels the playing field. Training to use it properly puts you above most criminals (as most thugs dont practice except when they are firing over there shoulders at police)

    And yeah, I understand there might come a time when I am killed with my own gun. However they will have to beat me to death with it because I assure you it will be empty.
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    Re suicide.

    I agree with you totally about the lethality of a gun for suicide. That is the whole point. It may have escaped your attention, but for every suicide death globally, there is 10 to 20 times as many ineffectual attempts at suicide. The most common method of trying is a drug overdose, and 98% of them survive.

    So, an attempt at suicide is not often a tragedy. But when a person has access to a hand gun, that attempt very quickly and almost certainly becomes a tragedy. Get rid of guns and you get rid of a vast number of suicide deaths.

    It is also worth remembering that most attempts at suicide are one off only. A depressed person experiences an impulse to suicide. The impulse lasts something from 2 minutes to 2 hours. If they find a suitable method, like a gun, in that time, then they will suicide. If they do not have easy access to a suicide method, the impulse will pass, and they will live. Since most would-be suicides only ever try once, the failure to find a suicide method during the period of the impulse means that person will live a long life, and will have the same chance at a worth while life as other people.

    End concluson : owning a hand gun massively (2 to 10 fold) increases the risk of a family member killing themselves. A life is lost that would otherwise not be.
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    In my opinion the best defence is in the way you behave when you are out. Walk confidently, head up, chest out and stride purposefully - don't look like a lost victim. Walk out in the open away from doorways or parked cars where people can reach out and grab you easily - walk down the middle of the road if you have to. If someone grabs you shout 'fire' - don't shout help or scream, no-one comes to help for that - everyone comes when they hear 'fire'.
    Keep it simple - if someone grabs you go limp - not many people can hold a dead weight especially when they are not expecting it. Fight dirty - go for the soft bits, the throat and the eyes. If someone grabs you from the front clasp your hands together and swing in a circle - they have no choice but to let go.
    But you have to practice these things because none of it will help you if you don't.
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    One way or another we are all biased
    My comment was a cautionary one.
    You may be focusing on information that supports your bias, and not looking for information that doesn't.
    We've been down this path before. In another thread, it was pointed out that there are many countries with lower "gun" ownership rates and higher rates of assault, murder, and suicide.

    The weapon does not create the behavior. It is just a tool. When in the hands of fools, it may exacerbate danger.
    But, there is no real way of controlling stupid.
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    That is a variation of the NRA slogan that : "Guns do not kill people. People kill people."

    While that is true, it is also misleading. People kill people, but they do it more successfully with guns. Here is a couple of statistics for you

    From Britain, only one stabbing in 400 leads to a death.
    From the USA, one shooting in 9 leads to death (excluding suicides).

    Having guns does not change the murderous nature of humans, but it changes how many people die.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    The weapon does not create the behavior.
    Agreed. However, they do both encourage the behavior and make the behavior more likely to be deadly.
    But, there is no real way of controlling stupid.
    Also agreed. But "stupid" with a gun turns into "dead" very often. Now if we could only keep guns out of the hands of stupid people we'd be all set - but unfortunately there are practical problems with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    Criminals do not care about laws, thats why they are criminals. They will own a gun legally or illegally and they have no problem using it against you. Having one of your own levels the playing field.
    I'd asked you why Canadian criminals, who can employ guns for crimes like muggings, rapes, robberies, typically choose not to. Does the answer have something to do with the "playing field" you mention? I'm still waiting for you to process the question and provide an insightful answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    a gun does not increase suicide risk. It simply makes it easier & more effective than other means.

    If someone puts a gun in there mouth and pulls the trigger, game over. There are very very few instances of survival when this happens. You get no second chance. Its instantaneous, at worse it takes a few minutes while you bleed out but you die just the same. Little medical intervention will help if you suffer from a case of scrambled brains. ...

    Guns however. They are extremely easy to kill with. Thats there purpose, thats what they are designed to do. 3lbs of pressure on the trigger and your done. No suffering, no screaming in pain or waiting to die. a closed casket & a mess for the maid thats it.
    Actually, if Skeptic's statistics on successful suicide with a gun are correct, then you are over rating the chances of successful suicide with a gun.

    I have taken care of several people who have attempted to blow their brains out, and succeeded in only blowing part of their faces off.

    Attempted suicide with a gun is a horrific thing.

    I agree that the obstruction of any attempts to reduce the carnage in the U.S. from guns is morally reprehensible.

    It would be analogous to a fanatical lobby blocking any attempts to regulate automobile travel by claiming that regulating speed, etc. was an infringement on the individual's constitutional freedom.

    The problem with this thinking is that other people have a right to not be the victim of the "freedom defender".

    You may be a responsible and skilled gun owner.

    But the rest of society has the right to make you prove it by placing reasonable requirements on gun owners to lock up their guns, and receive appropriate, and recurrent training for the privilege of carrying a weapon that can be revoked for irresponsible behavior.

    The Florida case involving the shooting of a teenager is a poster child for the need for this type of law.
    Last edited by dedo; January 7th, 2014 at 10:29 PM.
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    yeah. like i said, its rare for a suicide by gun to fail but it does happen. I have seen plenty also. Usually due to piss poor aim (like pointing the barrel at your cheek and thinking its going to take out the brain)

    However, aimed at the brain stem or even the actual juicy gooeyness of the brain its (usually) the end. very few live, i have seen cases where the bullet bounces off the skull and just tunnels around through the flesh between the skull and scalp untill it runs out of power and i remember one case where a guy got half his brain blown off (i think it was attempted homicide, not suicide tho) and lived. these are the exception tho, not the rule.

    Society however doesn't have a right to make me do anything. First, im not on trial. Secondly, burden of proof has always been on prosecution not defense. Thirdly i just...i really dont care. Like i said earlier. I have given my opinion and tried to bow out of this thread. Only reason I have continued to post is because the original poster was curious about firearms.

    I keep all of my guns open display, no locks or anything. Fully loaded & ready to go. Not once have i had any spontaneously go off. Only way the gun works is if someone pulls the trigger, if they do that its there own fault and the consequences are theirs. Several firearms, surprisingly i have had no accidents.

    With that, in closing I will just say. This is my advice, this is my opinion. If you want to follow it awesome, If you don't i wont loose any sleep at night over it. Continue to argue the merits however you wish. I have no intention of stopping/reducing/selling/removing my firearm collection and i highly doubt my words will change anyone's opinion. Thus

    I will no longer post in this thread UNLESS the Original poster (chero) decides to ask a question pertaining to me or issues I have discussed. Everyone else im out. Sry but i really just dont care that much to continue. Peace.
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    Society does, indeed, have the right to make you do stuff, or to prevent you from doing other stuff. It is called law. We live by rule of law. The people who do not do what society says, are called criminals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Chero

    The problem extends way past just kids. Take teenagers, for example. The teens are a time of high suicide danger. Yet a teen is smart enough to remove a hand gun from almost any hiding place, or semi-secure location, to play with it. If a teen is feeling suicidal, and there is a hand gun in the house, in anything less than a fully secure gun safe, you will have a tragedy and a dead teenager. The parent who owned that gun has to live with the knowledge that it was his/her idiocy that caused the teen's death.

    If there is no gun in the house, there is a very strong chance that the teenager will settle for a largely ineffective method of attempting suicide (drug overdose is the most common method tried and has a 98% survival rate) and will survive. With a gun, there is very little chance of survival, and even if the teen scores the 10% chance of not dying, he or she will probably be brain damaged for life.
    Sounds like good parenting and relationships are only things available to prevent suicide in any given situation.

    So, an attempt at suicide is not often a tragedy
    whether completed or not, the act is always a tragedy.

    Get rid of guns and you get rid of a vast number of suicide deaths
    I think this is an inadequate statement. a person feeling the way they do to commit to suicide will commit to it no matter. Most attempts are thought about for weeks or months in advance. Once that idea is there, its real difficult to just have it subside simply because you have nothing to reach for in a few seconds to get it done quickly.

    I would say, that a person has more time to hesitate and think about their actions which may deter their actions, but going after the cause of a person's mental illness is better every day of the week. Our culture is vastly unprepared for it, however.
    Last edited by chero; January 8th, 2014 at 03:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    Quite well IMO. About like anyone else. I go to town, do what I do. Try my hardest to ignore the mass of mindless zombies walking around. Its rare I talk to anyone else beyond the cashier of a friendly "how are you doing?"

    In my state (texas) we have no open carry & showing your firearm in public is considered brandishing which is a crime. Thus if you intend to pull one out, it better be to use it.

    I will post my own stats later on today but for now i need to run to town.
    before you stated that self defense is your life. part of that would be knowing your environment and the people around you. well, not "knowing" them but being aware of their presence and what their attitude is. knowing where the exits are, and well...so, so much more. That's why I asked how you conduct yourself in public.

    do you commit yourself to crime/violence prevention which includes all these things, or are you just prepared for what happens, if it happens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    Criminals do not care about laws, thats why they are criminals. They will own a gun legally or illegally and they have no problem using it against you. Having one of your own levels the playing field.
    I'd asked you why Canadian criminals, who can employ guns for crimes like muggings, rapes, robberies, typically choose not to. Does the answer have something to do with the "playing field" you mention? I'm still waiting for you to process the question and provide an insightful answer.
    What are you talking about pong? what playing field? you mean living in a frigged forest?
    Last edited by chero; January 8th, 2014 at 03:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    In my opinion the best defence is in the way you behave when you are out. Walk confidently, head up, chest out and stride purposefully - don't look like a lost victim. Walk out in the open away from doorways or parked cars where people can reach out and grab you easily - walk down the middle of the road if you have to. If someone grabs you shout 'fire' - don't shout help or scream, no-one comes to help for that - everyone comes when they hear 'fire'.
    Keep it simple - if someone grabs you go limp - not many people can hold a dead weight especially when they are not expecting it. Fight dirty - go for the soft bits, the throat and the eyes. If someone grabs you from the front clasp your hands together and swing in a circle - they have no choice but to let go.
    But you have to practice these things because none of it will help you if you don't.
    I've heard this before, but can' remember where. supposedly you are supposed to yell fire. weird how no one helps when hearing the words "help." too many bad things happened in the past I presume.

    the need for practice is absolute. no one can be effective otherwise. good point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    GR
    Society does, indeed, have the right to make you do stuff, or to prevent you from doing other stuff. It is called law. We live by rule of law. The people who do not do what society says, are called criminals.
    no their not. society says a lot of things, many times contradictory. there is a distinction of law vs "society says."
    Sometimes they interact and influence each other, sometimes not.
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  78. #77  
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    Chero

    It s not correct that a person who wants to suicide will do it no matter what. That is true for only a small minority of would-be suicides. Researchers into suicide tendencies have found that the majority of suicide attempts are on impulse, and that impulse is not normally repeated. In other words, if a person attempts suicide and fails, they usually will not try again.

    Just think of the global statistics, where only 5 to 10% of those who attempt suicide actually succeed. In the USA, where there are 220,000 attempts each year, and only 20,000 suicide deaths, it is clear that "doing it no matter what" is simply not the case. Of the 20,000 that succeed, 12,000 are done with hand guns, out of 13,000 attempts. So not having hand guns, as most western nations ensure, would save most of those 12,000 lives each year.
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  79. #78  
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Sounds like good parenting and relationships are only things available to prevent suicide in any given situation.
    That's a gross oversimplification. Good parenting does not correct neurochemical imbalances.
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    I've been training in a variety of martial arts for the last 20 years. My personal opinion is that the best forms of self defense are tai chi and xing yi.
    I say this because they are not based on who is stronger, but more on physics. Re directing energy and creating leverage. I've seen women put down men twice there size with something as simple as a wrist lock.

    Unlike other martial arts I've done, the internal arts have no rules when it comes to fighting. If its defense theres no problem with stamping on someones foot, knee in the groin, and thumb through eye socket.

    But their's no need to be mad. If someone has a knife and wants your bag. Throw it on the floor and run away. You just need to do enough to get out of there.

    With regards to guns, I live in the UK so can't comment.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards

    Anthony
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    Quite well IMO. About like anyone else. I go to town, do what I do. Try my hardest to ignore the mass of mindless zombies walking around. Its rare I talk to anyone else beyond the cashier of a friendly "how are you doing?"

    In my state (texas) we have no open carry & showing your firearm in public is considered brandishing which is a crime. Thus if you intend to pull one out, it better be to use it.

    I will post my own stats later on today but for now i need to run to town.
    before you stated that self defense is your life. part of that would be knowing your environment and the people around you. well, not "knowing" them but being aware of their presence and what their attitude is. knowing where the exits are, and well...so, so much more. That's why I asked how you conduct yourself in public.

    do you commit yourself to crime/violence prevention which includes all these things, or are you just prepared for what happens, if it happens?
    Ah, that aspect.

    Yeah, its difficult to explain but yes. I train myself daily to always be situational aware.

    If i go to a restaurant I specifically request the room furthest away from the front door, with my back against the wall & close to an alternate exit normal people dont use (such as server entrance through the kitchen, emergency fire exit, exit only with no entry ect) This way no-one can get behind me, no-one can come in behind me and if some lunatic comes in the front door they have a whole room full of sheep to go through before they get to me.

    Just walking into a building, I look at the reflection in the glass infront of the store. in car windows, those crappy round mirrors in gas stations. Most do not even recognize it but if you know how and train yourself there are mirrors everywhere. Im always "looking over my shoulder" with this. I wouldn't dare work out in a gym without mirrors. Luckly, most have them everywhere.

    Mirrors are everywhere, cover is everywhere, weapons are everywhere. My car is the most lethal weapon in my arsenal.

    I do profile everyone, about the same way cops do. business suit, clean shaven, stylist haircut, no threat. Scrubby loser, dingy clothing sagging around his hips, band or pop t-shirt promoting violence/drugs/profanity, hair past his shoulders matted together and a little "earthy" cologne on. Not someone I want to be within a mile of. This is the kind who is most likely to pull out a shiv and stab someone because they stepped on his new jordans.

    I also do a more fun profiling game where I guess how people will die, (450lb middle aged woman riding a rascal around walmart. Heart attack in 7-10yrs, 93yr old man hobbling along with a cane, stroke in 5) More fun but off topic.

    I keep my car tinted with the max I can by law. If theifs cant see whats inside they are less likely to try and steal it. Lock the car every time i get out even if im just going inside for a soda, 30 second trip. always watching my mirrors when i drive.

    just some examples. Hard to give everything I do since most of its just second nature now but yeah, I always remain aware of my environment.

    Unsure what you mean about crime prevention. If i see some hoodlum trying to steal a car, do i call the cops? of course. Do i go out at night dressed at batman and prevent bank robberies? not so much.

    Although I always remain aware of what is around me & am ready if something does happen.
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    You sound quite paranoid.
    Sure, it is good to be alert, and to take precautions. But it needs to be in balance. Life is for living and enjoying, and you cannot do that if you are looking over your shoulder most of the time.
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  83. #82  
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    you have your hobbies. I have mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    paranoid
    Either he's feral by nature, or something happened to him.

    The combined time, effort, and money wasted by people - collectively - because maybe 1 in 1,000 are bad apples.... it's amazingly unbalanced. See how one criminal passively makes so many people work for him, day and night? Owned.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyChan
    Unlike other martial arts I've done, the internal arts have no rules when it comes to fighting. If its defense theres no problem with stamping on someones foot, knee in the groin, and thumb through eye socket.
    That's why they're not sporting. And such violence cannot be made poetic for an audience.


    For most girls and women, self-defense should not be an end in itself. It's supposed to liberate so we can get on with life. Some women might pursue martial arts or gun collecting or whatever as a lifelong hobby, but if they're motivated by fear then the criminal has already beaten them: he holds that chunk of their lives devoted to him. So we want self-defense affecting normal life the way, say, CPR training does. It's a skill, not an occupation. I like that self-defense is being taught in some high schools.
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  85. #84  
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    beyond being sexist pigs:
    "Self defense for humans"

    When in bear country carry a heavy calibre weapon with heavy bullets and magnum charges.
    Out in public,
    assume that being armed is a tad outside the norm.

    I loaned a shotgun to my brother after a neighbor threatened his life, calling it a "paranoia pill"-----and the damned bastard sold my old double barreled savage shotgun, with which, I never missed the target. (gee darn)

    Do you also wear a bullet resistant vest? Chain mail for knives? Helmet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Chero

    It s not correct that a person who wants to suicide will do it no matter what. That is true for only a small minority of would-be suicides. Researchers into suicide tendencies have found that the majority of suicide attempts are on impulse, and that impulse is not normally repeated. In other words, if a person attempts suicide and fails, they usually will not try again.

    Just think of the global statistics, where only 5 to 10% of those who attempt suicide actually succeed. In the USA, where there are 220,000 attempts each year, and only 20,000 suicide deaths, it is clear that "doing it no matter what" is simply not the case. Of the 20,000 that succeed, 12,000 are done with hand guns, out of 13,000 attempts. So not having hand guns, as most western nations ensure, would save most of those 12,000 lives each year.
    all you did was state numbers. any number of the 20,000 could be repeats. any number of attempts could be repeats.

    Is that what you wanted me to look at or consider those numbers and ponder on them with the above paragraph in mind?
    Last edited by chero; January 8th, 2014 at 11:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenRatio View Post
    Yeah, its difficult to explain but yes. I train myself daily to always be situational aware.
    All things require training, that makes sense.
    I do profile everyone, about the same way cops do. business suit, clean shaven, stylist haircut, no threat. Scrubby loser, dingy clothing sagging around his hips, band or pop t-shirt promoting violence/drugs/profanity, hair past his shoulders matted together and a little "earthy" cologne on. Not someone I want to be within a mile of. This is the kind who is most likely to pull out a shiv and stab someone because they stepped on his new jordans.
    I believe some cops consider this. there has been other "techniques" to consider who is a threat or not as well.

    I keep my car tinted with the max I can by law. If theifs cant see whats inside they are less likely to try and steal it. Lock the car every time i get out even if im just going inside for a soda, 30 second trip. always watching my mirrors when i drive.
    Good tip. looking in mirrors is highly suggested from dmv and is on the driving test. noticing my environment (listening and watching) helped prevent a collision. I heard breaks, and crunch behind me. looked - saw cars moving and people in their cars jolting. eased off my break and rolled forward. got bumped, but no damage.

    most people do look into cars before breaking into them. knew a guy who had a candy bar stolen.

    just some examples. Hard to give everything I do since most of its just second nature now but yeah, I always remain aware of my environment.
    well explained, thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    beyond being sexist pigs:
    "Self defense for humans"

    When in bear country carry a heavy calibre weapon with heavy bullets and magnum charges.
    Out in public,
    assume that being armed is a tad outside the norm.

    I loaned a shotgun to my brother after a neighbor threatened his life, calling it a "paranoia pill"-----and the damned bastard sold my old double barreled savage shotgun, with which, I never missed the target. (gee darn)

    Do you also wear a bullet resistant vest? Chain mail for knives? Helmet?
    Hey, helmets makes sense. knives are great against chain mail, which were meant for swords. some people do wear bullet resistant vests. mine only say they are. ha ha.

    too bad about the gun. darn brothers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    For most girls and women, self-defense should not be an end in itself. It's supposed to liberate so we can get on with life. Some women might pursue martial arts or gun collecting or whatever as a lifelong hobby, but if they're motivated by fear then the criminal has already beaten them: he holds that chunk of their lives devoted to him. So we want self-defense affecting normal life the way, say, CPR training does. It's a skill, not an occupation. I like that self-defense is being taught in some high schools.
    physical conditioning and ability require repetition.

    does anyone know the rhythm cpr is supposed to be done?
    who answered that with out looking it up?


    I don't think fear alone will mean the criminals have already "beaten" anyone. its more about the amount of fear and how it affects your life. Everyone has fear, and I fear being attacked as I have, but that's what courage is for.

    as for devotion, a person must devote themselves to learning and understanding self defense. that's why specialists and even the trainers at seminars say, one class is not enough. I've even been to first aid courses in which the instructors encouraged us to continue studying and training even after the class.
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    I would wear bullet resistant clothing or chain mail if i could stand it & thought it was a worthy investment but I do not think it is. Trust me all the stuff i carry is heavy enough without adding in additional weight.

    All police profile, even if they say they dont (mostly due to it being somewhat illegal to profile) and its not really racial profiling, its looks profiling. The people who look like criminals usually are criminals.

    Im all for someone dressing however they want, if they want to roll around town looking like a thug thats perfectly fine. just know you will be treated as one by society, police, and fellow thugs.

    Thug on thug crime is quite real and happens more often than you think. Thugs usually carry nice things like drugs, weapons or money. Other thugs are attracted to such things. Little street hoodlums rarely go to the cops so if you can knock one out then you got new stuff without risk.

    There is a new "game" on the streets called the knock out game. This is (usually) blacks who attack white people, called polar bear hunting.

    What happens is 2-4 people run up behind someone and hits someone as hard as they can with there fists or weapon (such as 2X4 or lead pipe) then run off(sometimes followed by light robbing). Just for fun. No warning, no instigation. The victim did absolutely nothing except be in the wrong place at the wrong time and you have very very little means to fight back. They strike without warning from behind and then run away. Very hard to fight against that.

    This is the caliber of society these days. Hope you never run into such.

    edit: cpr is 30:2 if your doing it alone. or 15:2 for children/with partner. Done until exhaustion, relief, or pronunciation of dead. Only time CPR is not to be done is with truma so severe the patient is unable to be revived (like...decapitation, or severe necrosis of the body) no need to look it up, but then again I must re-qualify yearly due to nursing license.
    Last edited by GoldenRatio; January 9th, 2014 at 12:04 AM.
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    Obviously the specific dangers to women depend on where they live. GoldenRatio, where I live the "game"you described just never happens, but I shouldn't say on the internet it won't happen to anyone anywhere. Try to bear in mind your local conditions don't exactly match others'.
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    Just walking into a building, I look at the reflection in the glass infront of the store. in car windows, those crappy round mirrors in gas stations. Most do not even recognize it but if you know how and train yourself there are mirrors everywhere. Im always "looking over my shoulder" with this.
    We can all be grateful there's at least one person who will never let a door swing back into our faces as we follow them into somewhere.
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    MMS: Error

    The above reference is the definitive one for guns and suicide in the USA. Read it!

    This points out clearly that suicides are impulsive and the attempt is not normally repeated. It points out that a gun in the home increases suicide risk of a family member by 2 to 10 fold. It points out that a suicide attempt by gun is normally lethal.

    Guns in the home are very bad news. They do not protect. They increase risk of death by a major factor.
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    MMS: Error

    The first reference post may not have worked???
    Here it is again.
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    That's an argument that owning a gun for self-defense is not in your self-interest. Might convince some people, but I think the self-interested individual will reason a) "I won't be one of those statistical idiots", and b) "The dangers around me trump such risks".

    I favour the (subtler) argument: that defensive gun ownership forces criminals to be armed and dangerous, so it's a social evil which indirectly harms innocents. It's also a lot easier to pass law on that basis, because you're protecting rights not only taking them away.
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