Thread: Arthritic Joint Debris

As I understand it, arthritically damaged joints can often slough off debris. Is it possible for this detritus to be "caught" either as-is, or ingested if small enough by the protector-type white cells, in lymph nodes, where the nodes could then become enlarged or felt more readily? jocular

So far, it would appear that out of 25 views, no one has voiced opinion and the fork in the road still beckons. jocular

Rheumatoid arthritis — a chronic inflammatory disease that targets the tissue that lines your joints (synovium), is listed as one of the many causes of swollen lymph nodes, though perhaps not by the mechanism you suggest.

Swollen lymph nodes: Causes - MayoClinic.com

Originally Posted by scheherazade

Rheumatoid arthritis — a chronic inflammatory disease that targets the tissue that lines your joints (synovium), is listed as one of the many causes of swollen lymph nodes, though perhaps not by the mechanism you suggest.

Swollen lymph nodes: Causes - MayoClinic.com

Of course, my subversive, questioning self already sought and absorbed (a bit) of the Mayo page, but questioned the logic of it's conclusions. None of the 3 doctors seen last pronounced any particular concern over the condition. I FEEL, AND INNATELY THINK, SOMETHING IS WRONG. Ah, but now I have revealed the WHY for the thread. I think it's osteo, rather than rheumatoid, due to the joint involvement. But really, What the Hell Do I Know? For that matter, What the Hell do the Doctors Know? Receiving no concrete opinions from any, is most disconcerting as well as demoralizing. I belong to the select group of old farts covered by Medicare, further "protected" by Humana HealthCare. A joke, at best. Two "Principle Care Providers" (meaning Doctors) chosen by me from a list provided by Humana, have achieved no viable result for me.

Now, involved lymph nodes are a BAD THING! No Doctor, me, but no complete fool, either. Possibilities: Infection, (ruled out), Lymphoma (cancer) ruled out, no typical symptoms of "night sweats", unexplainable weight loss. Leukemia: lack of typical symptoms: weight loss, fatigue, muscle pain, lethargy, HIGH WHITE CELL COUNTS.; BUT, I got higher than normal counts of several of the "specialized white cells": basophils, high by 100%, but only in % of total WBC; eosinophils, high by 400%, only by % of total also; monocytes, high by 50% of expected range. BUT, BUT! All three are WITHIN ACCEPTABLE RANGE when counted as TOTAL NUMBERS PRESENT IN THE BLOOD. Somehow, this discrepancy tells me some kind of BULLSHIT reporting is going on. IF ONLY SOMEONE KNOWLEDGEABLE HERE READS THIS,. and takes the time to calarify it! PLEASE!

WBC, 4.4, lower limit 4.5. RBC, 4.4, lower limit 4.5. The other shit seems acceptable to me, Cholesterol, combined, 218. Not concerned! Blood glucose, 94. Triglycerides 46 in a range acceptable of 30-200.

Am healthy as a bull. Yet, something's eating away. Specifically, vertebral neck pain, right side, lymph node involvement, right side under lower jaw, slight pain, slight swelling, 2 nodes palpable.

When I press this issue, the bastard "practitioners" will shove needles into those nodes to catch a biopsy, and likely SPREAD any malignant cells, if there, into the bloodstream, RIGHT? OR WRONG? SOMEBODY FUC..NG SAY AM I RIGHT?

This is being presented before the readership of a science forum to enlighten the younger folk to the dilemmas faced by their elders, as well as prepare them for those inevitable soul-racking decisions they may be faced with in coming years. Nobody lives forever. Some live too long, beyond their "beneficial qualities" to their neighbors. Some are stricken far too soon, robbing MANKIND (sorry, it's the old term) of probable future INESTIMABLY VALUABLE CONTRIBUTION.

Like, Henry Gwynn-Jefferies Mosely, a brilliant young British Physicist who contributed invaluable prescience to SCIENCE, about 1915 or so, and was sent to the FRONT in World War I, by his appalingly disgusting GOVERNMENT, to serve in the FRONT LINES IN COMBAT, and was KILLED at around 25 or so, there. What a deploringly monstrous loss to society!

Don't get me going, joc

I think it's osteo, rather than rheumatoid, due to the joint involvement.

Well, there's a blood test for rheumatoid arthritis.

Not actually true, there's more than one. The first one is indicative, but they call it the rheumatoid arthritis test. Then when it's positive, they do several secondary tests to determine whether it's one or more of RA itself or Sjogren's syndrome or Hashimoto's disease or lupus or any of the dozen other testable autoimmune conditions.

I am no medical practitioner, Joc, and all of the medical information on-line stresses the need to consult with one's doctor on issues of concern, though well we know that they are also but human and cannot possibly know everything. My mother has a rare and incurable condition and after living with it for many decades is now more knowledgeable about the disorder than even the specialists they send up here every year or so and they bring in their understudies (with her permission) to learn from her, for she has lived with the problem while they have only studied it.

Another neighbor had several bothersome mild symptoms and went the gamut of tests up here, only to be told that she was fine. She insisted that she was not and when her doctor of the time said that he had run out of tests and ideas, she requested another. That doctor looked at her results and said likewise but he put her on a plane to Vancouver for further evaluation. The physicians there did a very quick physical and scheduled her in for surgery the very next morning.

She had a carotid artery that was very nearly blocked and the physicians up here had not caught it. They took a piece of vein from her thigh to make a replacement. (This was how she explained it to me.) She was home in a few days and the symptoms were gone. The doctors commended her for her persistence because the prognosis had it gone unattended was 'not good'. That was over a decade ago and the old girl is still chugging along, albeit a bit slower each year, for she is getting to be a 'high miler'.

You know yourself better than anyone else, Joc, yet there also comes a stage when the body becomes less able to heal itself and at that time, there may also be less that the medical community is able to offer. I would surely suggest that you avail yourself of any tests that can determine which type of arthritis you have, so that you may focus your physicians' attention on other possibilities depending on what those tests tell you.

Once again, I reiterate that I have no formal medical training and I but share the observations and experiences of those closest to me that you may know that you are not alone in these concerns and frustrations.

The question originally asked remains unanswered: Does debris sloughed off from an arthritic joint structure find it's way into a lymph node nearby, and be mistaken for a "foreign" invading substance? jocular

Originally Posted by scheherazade

I am no medical practitioner, Joc, and all of the medical information on-line stresses the need to consult with one's doctor on issues of concern, though well we know that they are also but human and cannot possibly know everything. My mother has a rare and incurable condition and after living with it for many decades is now more knowledgeable about the disorder than even the specialists they send up here every year or so and they bring in their understudies (with her permission) to learn from her, for she has lived with the problem while they have only studied it.

Another neighbor had several bothersome mild symptoms and went the gamut of tests up here, only to be told that she was fine. She insisted that she was not and when her doctor of the time said that he had run out of tests and ideas, she requested another. That doctor looked at her results and said likewise but he put her on a plane to Vancouver for further evaluation. The physicians there did a very quick physical and scheduled her in for surgery the very next morning.

She had a carotid artery that was very nearly blocked and the physicians up here had not caught it. They took a piece of vein from her thigh to make a replacement. (This was how she explained it to me.) She was home in a few days and the symptoms were gone. The doctors commended her for her persistence because the prognosis had it gone unattended was 'not good'. That was over a decade ago and the old girl is still chugging along, albeit a bit slower each year, for she is getting to be a 'high miler'.

You know yourself better than anyone else, Joc, yet there also comes a stage when the body becomes less able to heal itself and at that time, there may also be less that the medical community is able to offer. I would surely suggest that you avail yourself of any tests that can determine which type of arthritis you have, so that you may focus your physicians' attention on other possibilities depending on what those tests tell you.

Once again, I reiterate that I have no formal medical training and I but share the observations and experiences of those closest to me that you may know that you are not alone in these concerns and frustrations.

Your intent is as always, dearly welcomed, as are those of all others. The advice from all regarding testing and evaluation is, of course, sound. It fails in one way: consideration of funding work which often is not "medically typical" of "routine diagnostic procedure", perhaps not a problem in Canada, but surely one here. The ages-old retort advice stating "Can you afford not to", in response to "I cannot afford it", is still today thinly veiled as revealing of the plight of the "have nots".

I face reality. In comparison, the Iran Hostage Crisis, in which 52 Americans were held hostage for 444 days between Nov. 79 and Jan.1, caused world-wide repercussions this all due to the fact that a dying Iranian dictator who was a good "friend" of our Administration (meaning he was a PUPPET), was allowed medical treatment in New York, jeopardized the lives of 52 Americans, whereas the consideration of the medical status of any one American citizen is of no importance or consequence at all. See, I regard MYSELF as a far more viable human being than a bastard whose "Savak" secret police seized and murdered children, but expecting that reality might create help for those such as I, is laughable. Position and money are the two ingredients to success in today's P.C. but warped world. jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

. . . When I press this issue, the bastard "practitioners" will shove needles into those nodes to catch a biopsy, and likely SPREAD any malignant cells, if there, into the bloodstream, RIGHT? OR WRONG? SOMEBODY FUC..NG SAY AM I RIGHT? . .

There's too much going on in your post to address all your concerns directly, since I can't examine you or all the tests that have been done, but I can tell you NOT to worry about this one. The procedure done was called 'fine-needle' aspiration, and is the standard of care in biopsying several tissues, particularly lymph node, thyroid, and breast masses. It has been used for decades, has been shown effective in getting useful information about the tissue or organ, and has NOT been shown to increase the incidence of metastasis, either in the skin that the needle passed through or distant metastases (as would happen if the needle caused cancer cells to travel in the lymph or blood circulation).

FWIW,
Clarissa

Originally Posted by DogLady

....there's too much going on in your post to address all your concerns directly, since I can't examine you or all the tests that have been done, but I can tell you NOT to worry about this one. The procedure done was called 'fine-needle' aspiration, and is the standard of care in biopsying several tissues, particularly lymph node, thyroid, and breast masses. It has been used for decades, has been shown effective in getting useful information about the tissue or organ, and has NOT been shown to increase the incidence of metastasis, either in the skin that the needle passed through or distant metastases (as would happen if the needle caused cancer cells to travel in the lymph or blood circulation).

FWIW,
Clarissa

I am deeply grateful for your reply. My direct, decisive, and belligerent attitude is often taken, I have little doubt, for the ranting of a near-lunatic, this fact surely not encouraging worthiness of consideration. However, most who know me ignore that side, and discover another which somehow appeals, I think.

See, doubting "Thomas" that I am, "has NOT been shown to increase the incidence of metastasis", but, has attempt been made to SHOW that it has? Your own, personal writing as a perhaps Medico (?) suggests intensive study of things at the cellular level of size, the astronomical numbers involved, the constant movement of bodily fluids, lymph, chyle, blood, which prompts me personally to believe that maybe, deep down, you yourself might harbor some doubt about the effects of biopsy other than the beneficial ones--- No?

Sorry if my rant implied it was in response to worry over biopsy performed; it has not yet been done! (yet). Nor has it been suggested, since my last office visit with a new P.C.P. failed to include palpation under my jawbone, though he palpated everything else possible, to my disdain, as I already KNEW I have no hernia, BPH, etc. And I neglected, on purpose, to mention the swollen lymph node, thinking I would seek as many opinions as possible first, and research the question of joint deterioration debris as a cause. R.A. is mentioned as a possible cause in the link provided by Scheherazade.

The neck pain is unignorably severe, quite localized, and turning my head very far results in crackling sounds there, more "feelable" than audible, as I'm almost deaf, to boot! So, at least one vertebra is crunching away, I think. The only testing done was general in nature, CBC, PSA, Echo-Cardiogram, all routine, not in response to any symptom, other than my alcohol consumption, which has brought about ( I guess) elevated GGT, which I told the Dr. to expect, and he shrugged it off immediately, before knowing any actual numbers, saying if the other enzymes are acceptable, don't worry about it (they were). Even that remark, I question in my mind, as liver enzyme elevation is not thusly explained by medical sites. (GGT was 124, range 10-75).

So I have lifted the one "foot in the grave" mentally back up onto firm ground, looking for info, worrying, being active, cussing, and drinking (!). jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

I am deeply grateful for your reply. My direct, decisive, and belligerent attitude is often taken, I have little doubt, for the ranting of a near-lunatic, this fact surely not encouraging worthiness of consideration. However, most who know me ignore that side, and discover another which somehow appeals, I think.

See, doubting "Thomas" that I am, "has NOT been shown to increase the incidence of metastasis", but, has attempt been made to SHOW that it has? Your own, personal writing as a perhaps Medico (?) suggests intensive study of things at the cellular level of size, the astronomical numbers involved, the constant movement of bodily fluids, lymph, chyle, blood, which prompts me personally to believe that maybe, deep down, you yourself might harbor some doubt about the effects of biopsy other than the beneficial ones--- No?

Sorry if my rant implied it was in response to worry over biopsy performed; it has not yet been done! (yet). Nor has it been suggested, since my last office visit with a new P.C.P. failed to include palpation under my jawbone, though he palpated everything else possible, to my disdain, as I already KNEW I have no hernia, BPH, etc. And I neglected, on purpose, to mention the swollen lymph node, thinking I would seek as many opinions as possible first, and research the question of joint deterioration debris as a cause. R.A. is mentioned as a possible cause in the link provided by Scheherazade.

The neck pain is unignorably severe, quite localized, and turning my head very far results in crackling sounds there, more "feelable" than audible, as I'm almost deaf, to boot! So, at least one vertebra is crunching away, I think. The only testing done was general in nature, CBC, PSA, Echo-Cardiogram, all routine, not in response to any symptom, other than my alcohol consumption, which has brought about ( I guess) elevated GGT, which I told the Dr. to expect, and he shrugged it off immediately, before knowing any actual numbers, saying if the other enzymes are acceptable, don't worry about it (they were). Even that remark, I question in my mind, as liver enzyme elevation is not thusly explained by medical sites. (GGT was 124, range 10-75).

So I have lifted the one "foot in the grave" mentally back up onto firm ground, looking for info, worrying, being active, cussing, and drinking (!). jocular

I've been pondering how best to answer this post, so it has taken me a while to respond. I phrased the 'has not been shown to . . .' because that is the only way to really put it. The opposite makes no sense. The studies compare the incidence of metastasis in those who have the fine needle aspiration with the incidence of metastasis in those who had open biopsies, where a surgical incision is made and a piece of tissue is removed directly. Either the incidence is statistically greater or it isn't. You can't compare it with those who have no biopsies because you don't know if the mass is cancer until you've checked it. Depending on what tissue is involved, a mass can be benign, infectious, cancerous, inflammatory, reactive. So, you have to check. I'm sorry if I confused things a bit. And I have no reservations in using the needle aspiration on my patients. Open biopsy has more potential side effects just because of the sedation or anesthesia required. Clarissa

DogLady, please understand that my "mood-swingy" attitude regarding all this is the result of a bunch of emotional entanglements which have caused worry, hesitation, and reluctance to take any action at all, save for gleaning as much information as possible. The lymph node (about 1 cm in diameter) in question was first detected officially 11 months ago during a routine examination by a Nurse Practitioner while I sought relief from a respiratory problem, at an Urgent Care Center. I had actually noticed the swelling myself several moths prior to that. At that time I embarked upon a search to determine outward symptoms of Leukemias, Hodgkin's Disease, or myeloproliferative disorder of some kind. Typical symptoms have not been observed. In short, at 71 I believe I enjoy a more active and productive existence than perhaps 75% of the men I know or observe who are of similar age. When I think back and reflect on the number of folks I have known who slid "downhill" healthwise soon after seeking specialized medical help, I give pause to considering that.

Any technical response to my original post is gratifying, but yours is that as well as encouraging, and for that, I thank you. Given the degree of difficulty others encounter in dealing with this ornery old bastard it is always surprising to me that many care, regardless! jocular