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Thread: Did this "Rescuer" unintentionally kill his friend?

  1. #1 Did this "Rescuer" unintentionally kill his friend? 
    Forum Ph.D. Raziell's Avatar
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    Read in the newspaper that a 17 year old boy got stabbed in the throat with a broken bottle, he later died from the wounds.
    His friend tried to save him by putting pressure on the wound. He even got a towel and tied it around his friend's neck/throat to stop the bleeding.

    Maybe Im wrong here but wouldnt this make things worse? If you are cut through the wall of the throat, wont applying pressure make the bleeding cause drowning and suffocation instead? If a friend of mine got stabbed in the throat I would think the best thing to do would be filling the gap with a finger or something. Maybe try to use a clothiron to cauterize the wound.

    Thoughts?


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    Do you have a link to the article?
    It depends on where the wound was, as to whether it could inhibit breathing or bleed into the esophagus.
    Pressure promotes Clotting. Clotting is important in preventing bleeding to death.

    Hey, I'm no doctor, though...


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  4. #3  
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    He did what I probably would have done. It doesn't say that he used the towel like a tourniquet. If he was just keeping pressure to slow blood loss, it was probably not a bad call.

    Like Neverfly said, I'm not a doctor either. I can only respond with how I would behave in that situation.

    I certainly wouldn't try sticking my finger into a wound or burning my friend's neck, though.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    I would imagine a broken bottle would cause quite a few wounds rather than one - unless you were there its difficult to know whats for the best. I rather suspect the guy is feeling bad enough - speculation about whether he saved him or helped him on his way is not helpful really.

    And I really hope I'm nowhere near you if something happens to me and your first thought is to put the iron on........ hmmmm
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
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    I think that applying the towel was the best response, probably snug instead of loose or tight. Putting a waterproof barrier, such as a plastic shopping bag (even a sandwich bag) over the wound before applying the tourniquet would help slow/stop more of the bleeding. Obviously, one does not want to strangle the patient.

    Arterial blood is under a relatively great amount of pressure, and the main arteries in the neck are large and are only one foot away from the heart. Arterial blood does not weep, drip or run as from a regular wound, which usually involves relatively low-pressure venous blood — arterial blood squirts. Hockey goalie Clint Malarchuk's throat was cut, and you can see him bleeding here. They also applied a towel over Malarchuk's wound first, and then they quickly gave him more specific attention. He survived.

    If the flow from the heart was stopped, there's still the backflow from the head due to the interconnection of arteries in the head called the Circle of Willis. I think I would want to apply force with fingers both above and below the wound, wipe it as dry as possible, and apply masking tape (but not tightly around the neck). Sounds impossible or very improbable, and would most likely require two or more people.

    Applying a tourniquet on someone's neck is tricky in that you want to focus the force over/near the wound to quench the flow instead of the force applied all around the neck, which might slow/stop all flow, particularly venous flow (which is closer to the skin and it's why such a person's face becomes red). Cauterizing the wound with a clothes iron sounds difficult/ineffective, even if a very hot one was immediately handy. The patient probably doesn't have five minutes to wait for it to heat up.
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    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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  7. #6  
    Forum Ph.D. Raziell's Avatar
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    The Article is in norwegian so no point in linking it I guess

    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    I would imagine a broken bottle would cause quite a few wounds rather than one - unless you were there its difficult to know whats for the best. I rather suspect the guy is feeling bad enough - speculation about whether he saved him or helped him on his way is not helpful really.

    And I really hope I'm nowhere near you if something happens to me and your first thought is to put the iron on........ hmmmm
    I just thought a hot iron would stop the bleeding instantly but ... Im no doctor either. That could end bad :P
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    If the glass cut one of the major vessels, carotid artery or internal jugular vein, cautery would be of absolutely no use. The vessels are too large and under too much pressure. Direct pressure over the bleeding wound using primarily one's fingers (with some gauze or cloth underneath) would be the best first aid option. Surgically, they would have to surgically re-approximate the cut ends (hopefully). Last ditch effort would be to clamp and ligate the vessels. An occlusive dressing would help, and would also prevent an air embolism (which can happen when the jugular is cut - strong intrathoracic negative pressure during inspiration can lead to air embolism). And, yes, I am a doctor, though not a trauma surgeon.

    FWIW,
    Clarissa
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogLady View Post
    And, yes, I am a doctor.
    Please stick around...

    We'll even pay you with humor and gratitude.
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  10. #9  
    Moderator Moderator Cogito Ergo Sum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DogLady View Post
    And, yes, I am a doctor.
    Please stick around...

    We'll even pay you with humor and gratitude.

    And likes!
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    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    And likes!
    Oh, I never give those things out.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Ph.D. Raziell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogLady View Post
    If the glass cut one of the major vessels, carotid artery or internal jugular vein, cautery would be of absolutely no use. The vessels are too large and under too much pressure. Direct pressure over the bleeding wound using primarily one's fingers (with some gauze or cloth underneath) would be the best first aid option. Surgically, they would have to surgically re-approximate the cut ends (hopefully). Last ditch effort would be to clamp and ligate the vessels. An occlusive dressing would help, and would also prevent an air embolism (which can happen when the jugular is cut - strong intrathoracic negative pressure during inspiration can lead to air embolism). And, yes, I am a doctor, though not a trauma surgeon.

    FWIW,
    Clarissa
    Sounds to me a slash or pierce injury against the throat is even deadlier than attacks against the head :P Evolution shouldve given us scales/armored hide around the throat -.-
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  13. #12  
    Forum Professor scoobydoo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Sounds to me a slash or pierce injury against the throat is even deadlier than attacks against the head :P Evolution shouldve given us scales/armored hide around the throat -.-
    Perhaps if flying guillotines were an ever present danger in our evolutionary history.
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  14. #13  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    I think I would have done the same thing. My heart goes out to the boy trying to help.
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    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    The Article is in norwegian so no point in linking it I guess
    I think this is the article — Prøvde å redde kameratens liv

    Translated into English — Tried to save his friend's life
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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  16. #15  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogLady View Post
    Evolution shouldve given us scales/armored hide around the throat -.-
    Then we couldn't turn our heads and sabre tooth tigers would sneak up on us and eat us.

    If you really want to improve things move your brain to just above your heart - then your neck just has to carry a few tiny blood vessels to support your eyes, nose, mouth and ears.
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    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    If you really want to improve things move your brain to just above your heart
    ... but if you got the flu really bad, you might cough your brains out — literally. Really though, I think it would suffer a concussion when the person coughed or sneezed.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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  18. #17  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    If you really want to improve things move your brain to just above your heart
    ... but if you got the flu really bad, you might cough your brains out — literally. Really though, I think it would suffer a concussion when the person coughed or sneezed.
    so how would that improve things? chuckle
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogLady View Post
    If the glass cut one of the major vessels, carotid artery or internal jugular vein, cautery would be of absolutely no use. The vessels are too large and under too much pressure. Direct pressure over the bleeding wound using primarily one's fingers (with some gauze or cloth underneath) would be the best first aid option. Surgically, they would have to surgically re-approximate the cut ends (hopefully). Last ditch effort would be to clamp and ligate the vessels. An occlusive dressing would help, and would also prevent an air embolism (which can happen when the jugular is cut - strong intrathoracic negative pressure during inspiration can lead to air embolism). And, yes, I am a doctor, though not a trauma surgeon.


    FWIW,
    Clarissa

    I agree with this.

    I would only add that direct pressure on the bleeding side is a a good idea, and of course -- call for help.

    However, a "tourniquet" / "towel" that wraps around the neck is not so good because depending on how it is applied you could reduce flow from the uninjured side.

    The brain will depend on collateral circulation from the uninjured side during the period when direct pressure is applied to the injured side.

    You would not expect a 17 year old to know this.

    Trying to stop the bleeding was a brave thing for him to do.
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