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Thread: taking multivitamins

  1. #1 taking multivitamins 
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    For a high school student who studies hard, uses computer everyday, uses his brain a lot- - - will multivitamin tablets be helpful for him, or just only DHA or multi 'B' vitamin is enough and more relevant? And if he also has only 4-5 hours of sleeping per day and therefore is often feeling tired and sleepy, had he better take multivitamin which will help in restoration of body, brain,eyes and everything?

    Another question is, can we take those vitamins or minerals daily and continuously, do they have future bad effects on our body or the excess will just be eliminated by excretion?

    Thank you
    Nucleara


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    And if he also has only 4-5 hours of sleeping per day and therefore is often feeling tired and sleepy, had he better take multivitamin which will help in restoration of body, brain,eyes and everything?
    The best, the only, way for a school student to get more rest is to Get More Rest.

    In case you don't know this, research has shown that high school students, adolescents, need sleep at least as much as, if not more than, primary school students, pre-pubescent children. So you're better off reorganising yourself around 8 hours sleep minimum per night.

    There is no known medication, or vitamin, or mineral, that can counteract the effects of chronic sleep deprivation. If you have trouble sleeping, that's a different matter and you should see a doctor - but not before you've tried a routine of set sleep and wake times for a fortnight or a month. Me? I'd start with 10pm to 7am for a week or 10 days and see how you get on with that. (It's a good idea to not use computers or other screen technologies for at least an hour before bedtime. Regardless of the bed time you set, it's a good idea to reset all your screens to change the colourin accordance with time of day. I use this one. f.lux: software to make your life better


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    Vitamins will only help your sleep if your lack of sleep is the result of a vitamin deficiency.
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    Vitamins are one of the great all time scams. Just eat healthy, exercise, and get 8 hours of sleep a night.
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    Another question is, can we take those vitamins or minerals daily and continuously, do they have future bad effects on our body or the excess will just be eliminated by excretion?
    Sorry, I didn't really pay the right kind of attention to this yesterday.

    The question you should be asking is ....

    Is it safe to try to run my developing brain on too little rest and too little self-care, does this have future bad effects on the body, particularly the brain function?

    What do you think the answer would be?
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    I used to take a multi, and then I realized...when I ran out, and went a week or two without it, that I didn't feel too much different. lol

    But, I do like Ester-C ...daily, or when you sense a cold is coming on.

    I agree with those who say that plenty of daily rest/sleep, and a good clean diet, will keep you on track the best.

    Cheers, and good luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    As Sheldon says "Well, there's some value to taking a multi-vitamin but the human body can only absorb so much. What you're buying here are the ingredients for very expensive urine."
    I have never heard it quite put like that.

    When my husband is visiting me in Hawai'i, he takes no vitamins. We eat healthy. My doctor, however still recommends Vitamin D, and Calcium for women daily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Vitamins are one of the great all time scams. Just eat healthy, exercise, and get 8 hours of sleep a night.
    Yes Flick, I have the idea too. But I mean if I really can't have enough sleep since I wake up at 4.45 to go to school, arrive home at 7 pm ,then I have dinner, after that I do homework and study and stuff and I go to bed at 10.30 (earliest). Not everybody can get the hours of sleep they need, can they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    As Sheldon says "Well, there's some value to taking a multi-vitamin but the human body can only absorb so much. What you're buying here are the ingredients for very expensive urine."
    So true. Some very expensive, seemingly fluorescent urine.
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    I take vitamins as I have difficulty absorbing some nutrients from foods, so I need extra. I also live at a higher latitude than the country where I was born, and take Vitamin D supplements after becoming deficient from lack of sunlight. Not all countries fortify foods to the extent they do in the US. Not everyone has the money, time or knowledge to purchase the wide variety of foods that are needed to provide all necessary nutrients, particularly if they have food allergies or intolerances or limit their diet for other reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    I take vitamins as I have difficulty absorbing some nutrients from foods, so I need extra. I also live at a higher latitude than the country where I was born, and take Vitamin D supplements after becoming deficient from lack of sunlight. Not all countries fortify foods to the extent they do in the US. Not everyone has the money, time or knowledge to purchase the wide variety of foods that are needed to provide all necessary nutrients, particularly if they have food allergies or intolerances or limit their diet for other reasons.
    Each of our bodies and or locations, thereof are different.

    I live in Hawai'i 10 months of the year but the two back here, I do need Vitamin D. My doctors, have never not recommended that women should and need to take a calcium supplement.

    I think people go far. They start taking all sorts of vitamins, they really do not need if they eat well (healthy) and take care of their bodies by exercising.

    and yes, it isn't SCIENTIFIC

    but common sense also equals listening to YOUR body! and what it needs.

    I totally think our bodies give us clues......we just have to listen to them....
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    Why isn't it scientific? Your body needs vitamins. If you can't get them through natural, external sources you can get them through supplements. Just like you can get insulin from an external source if your body doesn't produce enough of it on its own.

    Making ridiculous claims about energy-boosting, memory-enhancing, virility-increasing powers of huge doses of vitamins is what's not scientific.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nucleara View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Vitamins are one of the great all time scams. Just eat healthy, exercise, and get 8 hours of sleep a night.
    Yes Flick, I have the idea too. But I mean if I really can't have enough sleep since I wake up at 4.45 to go to school, arrive home at 7 pm ,then I have dinner, after that I do homework and study and stuff and I go to bed at 10.30 (earliest). Not everybody can get the hours of sleep they need, can they?
    Vitamins will not correct your poor time management.

    Taking care of your personal well-being should be a priority over anything else. What's the point of an education if you're too dead to utilize it?
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    I don't know why Nucleara has to get up at 4.45am and not return until 7pm. My suspicion is a long commute.

    Given that, I think I'd try to do as much homework as possible, or lesson preparation in the morning or, in the afternoon, some related reading, note-taking, revision, preliminary calculations, whatever, as possible while on the train or bus or in the car. Even if you can get only an hour or so's work into those journeys, that's an hour not needed at night that would be better devoted to sleep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I don't know why Nucleara has to get up at 4.45am and not return until 7pm. My suspicion is a long commute.

    Given that, I think I'd try to do as much homework as possible, or lesson preparation in the morning or, in the afternoon, some related reading, note-taking, revision, preliminary calculations, whatever, as possible while on the train or bus or in the car. Even if you can get only an hour or so's work into those journeys, that's an hour not needed at night that would be better devoted to sleep.
    Assuming there's a long commute, and also assuming Nucleara doesn't drive, why not just do the homework during the commute?
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    It's hard to comment, not knowing in what part of the world he lives, but a 2 hour commute to high school seems unreasonable.
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    2 hour commute to high school seems unreasonable.
    It's certainly unreasonable. But there are some, not many, kids who go to school near Sydney but live nearer Newcastle. The train trip itself takes 2+hours if your trip is the whole distance from Newcastle itself to Central station in Sydney. By the time you add in the time needed for getting to and from the station at either end, you're looking at 2 hours anyway for some of these students.

    There are plenty of other trips in other places I can think of requiring connecting bus/train/tram journeys which add to the time needed.
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    That's pretty rough. Our educational system in the US might be on par with Madagascar's, but at least we can get you there pretty quick...
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    It's not the system. These kids are probably passing a dozen or more schools to get where they're going. Most are going to private or religious schools chosen by their parents. A few have little to no choice because they've qualified for entry to one of the specialist sport/ agriculture/ music/ gifted student type schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    It's hard to comment, not knowing in what part of the world he lives, but a 2 hour commute to high school seems unreasonable.
    Not if you live in the country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    It's not the system. These kids are probably passing a dozen or more schools to get where they're going. Most are going to private or religious schools chosen by their parents. A few have little to no choice because they've qualified for entry to one of the specialist sport/ agriculture/ music/ gifted student type schools.
    Ah, I see. We have a voucher system that allows for that. I won't get into that can of worms in this thread, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    It's hard to comment, not knowing in what part of the world he lives, but a 2 hour commute to high school seems unreasonable.
    Not if you live in the country.
    I know plenty of people in rural Indiana and they are usually home-schooled. I wonder what online options there are for people who can't get to a school in a timely manner. Seems like a much better use of time and money than such a long trip (again, assuming that is what is going on here).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    It's hard to comment, not knowing in what part of the world he lives, but a 2 hour commute to high school seems unreasonable.
    Not if you live in the country.
    I know plenty of people in rural Indiana and they are usually home-schooled. I wonder what online options there are for people who can't get to a school in a timely manner. Seems like a much better use of time and money than such a long trip (again, assuming that is what is going on here).

    A lot of them use the ride home to do homework and the ride to school to study. Some use it as social time. Friends who lived in Ruth had a 2 hour each way daily commute. I think the hardest part is how early you have to get up! Hard on the kids. When high school came, that would have been even longer, so they moved to town.
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    I think you need time management Nucleara, not vitamins.
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    I'm sorry. What I wanted to know is WHAT I SHOULD TAKE to promote the brain when I have to study a lot, and if DHA is beneficial and recommendable. And I only added if multivitamin can help to restore my body. Nobody answers my first question. Anyway, thanks to some of you for sharing your experiences, and some for your suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I don't know why Nucleara has to get up at 4.45am and not return until 7pm. My suspicion is a long commute.

    Given that, I think I'd try to do as much homework as possible, or lesson preparation in the morning or, in the afternoon, some related reading, note-taking, revision, preliminary calculations, whatever, as possible while on the train or bus or in the car. Even if you can get only an hour or so's work into those journeys, that's an hour not needed at night that would be better devoted to sleep.
    Thank you adelady. And yes you don't know why I have to get up that early and arrive home that late(for you).
    I wake up at 4.45, get ready, and so do my dad and my brother. We leave home at 5.30-- My dad drops me at 6.30 and my school starts at 7.30 That one hour I spend it in the library and then I have breakfast. I DO finish some of my homework at school. School finishes at 3.50 but my dad can leave his work at 5 so I have to wait. And the traffic thing makes the commute slower than in the morning. I used to read in the car, and consequently now I 'm short-sighted and sometimes eye strain, I don't want it to be worse. We arrive home at 7, more or less.
    I admit that I sometimes don't manage time well at night. But all the other things mentioned couldn't be changed. Now I'm about to finish high school and enter the university- I have to study hard and I read until midnight. Just so you understand.

    And thank you all for your answers to my second question. Ok, multivitamin is not needed for me. It's time management.

    Thanks to all
    Last edited by Nucleara; December 10th, 2013 at 05:16 AM.
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    I used to read in the car, and consequently now I 'm short-sighted and sometimes eye strain, I don't want it to be worse.
    Doing that for a year or so couldn't affect your sight. And it doesn't matter anyway.

    Whether it's these circumstances or any other, if you have problems with your vision, you need to get to an optometrist for an eye test. You might need a (new) prescription for glasses. You might need some other therapy or adjustment to make reading easier and less stressful.
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    BBC NEWS | Health | Vitamins 'could shorten lifespan'

    The best advice is not to take vitamins except as ordered by your doctor. The reference above looks at the results of a number of studies, that showed people who take vitamin supplements actually die younger than those who do not. Early death can be used as a pretty strong hint that they are not good for you!

    The basic rule is, as always, to eat a balanced diet, and not to rely on vitamins.

    To babe.
    On Vitamin D and calcium.
    Anyone living in Hawaii should not need vitamin D, since the best source is exposure to sunlight. On calcium, the best source is low fat milk. I recommend about half a litre per day, or more, if you are short on calcium.
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    Longer Life For Milk Drinkers, Study Suggests

    Just to add to my comments on milk.
    The above sciencedaily report suggests that milk is one of the good foods, and actually increases average life span.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    BBC NEWS | Health | Vitamins 'could shorten lifespan'

    The best advice is not to take vitamins except as ordered by your doctor. The reference above looks at the results of a number of studies, that showed people who take vitamin supplements actually die younger than those who do not. Early death can be used as a pretty strong hint that they are not good for you!

    The basic rule is, as always, to eat a balanced diet, and not to rely on vitamins.

    To babe.
    On Vitamin D and calcium.
    Anyone living in Hawaii should not need vitamin D, since the best source is exposure to sunlight. On calcium, the best source is low fat milk. I recommend about half a litre per day, or more, if you are short on calcium.
    Don't they just add the Vitamin D to milk these days?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    BBC NEWS | Health | Vitamins 'could shorten lifespan'

    The best advice is not to take vitamins except as ordered by your doctor. The reference above looks at the results of a number of studies, that showed people who take vitamin supplements actually die younger than those who do not. Early death can be used as a pretty strong hint that they are not good for you!

    The basic rule is, as always, to eat a balanced diet, and not to rely on vitamins.

    To babe.
    On Vitamin D and calcium.
    Anyone living in Hawaii should not need vitamin D, since the best source is exposure to sunlight. On calcium, the best source is low fat milk. I recommend about half a litre per day, or more, if you are short on calcium.
    I HATE MILK!! *laughing* and wondering why doctor told me to take "D" and now they do "D" testing on your blood work here! I never would drink milk as a CHILD!....it makes me gag!
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post

    Don't they just add the Vitamin D to milk these days?
    Depends on where you live. They add it to milk in the US, but not in the UK. Something I learned when I started suffering badly from lack of Vitamin D after moving from the US to the UK. It does not help that the UK is also at a much higher latitude than the US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post

    Don't they just add the Vitamin D to milk these days?
    Depends on where you live. They add it to milk in the US, but not in the UK. Something I learned when I started suffering badly from lack of Vitamin D after moving from the US to the UK. It does not help that the UK is also at a much higher latitude than the US.
    This is very good to know, and I am glad you found out what your ailment was. That is the type of thing that I have assumed is done by at least every Western nation, so thanks for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post

    This is very good to know, and I am glad you found out what your ailment was. That is the type of thing that I have assumed is done by at least every Western nation, so thanks for that.
    I assumed this as well. I was only able to figure out what was wrong with me by hearing from other American expats (in a forum) who had also developed vitamin D deficiencies. One woman developed rickets during pregnancy.
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    You don't have to take vitamins (exspecially 100% vitamins), most of them u take from food you eat every day. Just keep your meals healthy, do exercises and rest.
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    Food today is lacking in nutrients because of agrobusiness farming practices that deplete the soil Dirt Poor: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious?: Scientific American
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    I take certain things that I find I am lacking in.....my tests showed though I live in Hawai'i I was lacking in "D"....I am not a sun bunny...I take calcium....and biotin helps keep my nails healthy.....and I drink tonic water for cramping...which is normal as you get older, I found out.....I thought I was gonna die! *laughing*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    Food today is lacking in nutrients because of agrobusiness farming practices that deplete the soil Dirt Poor: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious?: Scientific American
    That is not strictly correct. In fact, the claim is mostly an advertising ploy by the multi-billion dollar organic food industry.

    The thing is that various methods of growing food will result in more or less of the various vitamins. But the levels are still sufficient for our needs. For example : the average adult needs a minimum dose of 50 milligrams of vitamin C per day to stay healthy. A balanced diet that includes fruit and green vegetables will always deliver 100 mgm or more per day, even if the crops are grown in such a way as to have less than the average vitamin C.

    But what is genuinely harmful to health is to take vitamin pills that deliver many times the required minimum.

    It is worth noting that organic food has more vitamins, but for a reason. Organic crops are treated more harshly than conventional, and several vitamins (C and E especially) are made by plants to protect them against adverse conditions. So, the fact that organic crops are not sprayed with effective insecticides means that they get attacked more by insects (one reason organic fruit is more blemished), and the plants make, not only more vitamins, but more natural insecticides, which are hamful to human health.

    The extra vitamins give little if any benefit, and the extra insecticides cause us harm. Because the natural insecticides are being produced to the point when we bite into the fruit, and sprayed insecticides biodegrade from the moment of spraying, means that naturalinsecticides are present in large amounts till we eat the food, while synthetic are almost totally gone at that point.

    To babe

    You do not need to be a 'sun bunny' to get enough sunlight. With the intensity of sunlight in Hawaii, a mere 20 minutes per day with just part of your body (say face, arms and legs) exposed, will be more than enough to give you the vitamin D you require. A healthy daily walk outdoors should be sufficient. Unless there is something you are not telling us.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    Food today is lacking in nutrients because of agrobusiness farming practices that deplete the soil Dirt Poor: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious?: Scientific American
    That is not strictly correct. In fact, the claim is mostly an advertising ploy by the multi-billion dollar organic food industry.

    The thing is that various methods of growing food will result in more or less of the various vitamins. But the levels are still sufficient for our needs. For example : the average adult needs a minimum dose of 50 milligrams of vitamin C per day to stay healthy. A balanced diet that includes fruit and green vegetables will always deliver 100 mgm or more per day, even if the crops are grown in such a way as to have less than the average vitamin C.

    But what is genuinely harmful to health is to take vitamin pills that deliver many times the required minimum.

    It is worth noting that organic food has more vitamins, but for a reason. Organic crops are treated more harshly than conventional, and several vitamins (C and E especially) are made by plants to protect them against adverse conditions. So, the fact that organic crops are not sprayed with effective insecticides means that they get attacked more by insects (one reason organic fruit is more blemished), and the plants make, not only more vitamins, but more natural insecticides, which are hamful to human health.

    The extra vitamins give little if any benefit, and the extra insecticides cause us harm. Because the natural insecticides are being produced to the point when we bite into the fruit, and sprayed insecticides biodegrade from the moment of spraying, means that naturalinsecticides are present in large amounts till we eat the food, while synthetic are almost totally gone at that point.

    To babe

    You do not need to be a 'sun bunny' to get enough sunlight. With the intensity of sunlight in Hawaii, a mere 20 minutes per day with just part of your body (say face, arms and legs) exposed, will be more than enough to give you the vitamin D you require. A healthy daily walk outdoors should be sufficient. Unless there is something you are not telling us.....
    Doctor said....take Vitamin D....so I do...I take 2 2/10 miles power walks on the beach every other day...I golf the other days and hit the gym for upper body....just following my doctors orders....same with Calcium...
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    It's hard to comment, not knowing in what part of the world he lives, but a 2 hour commute to high school seems unreasonable.
    Not if you live in the country.
    Agreed. When I was growing up it was about 50 minutes to High School in perfect weather and nearly two hours when there was snow on the ground.

    There's a school district I did a bit of volunteer work for last year at a small dying lumber town where all the kids were about an hour and a half one way to the nearest high school. Lack of good internet made it worse. There are hundreds of towns like this in even in the US (because the government won't step up to its constitutional responsibility to provide essential infrastructure). Overseas it's even worse...one Marsh Arab village I used to patrol took nearly a hour to walk to the Tigris river, load all the kids in the bottom of a narrow wood boat, about twenty minutes to cross as the older kids stood up and pulled hand over hand a low slung rope to the other side, and than another 20 minutes to a half day school. Rinse repeat in reverse.

    As for vitamins....yes it's best to eat healthy. On the other hand there's a lot of conditions where supplements are advised. In the Pacific Northwest most folks should take Vitamin D supplements to compensate for our Africa rift valley evolved sunshine to D bodies just can't work well with an 8 hour cloudy/rainy days. In my case I take acid reflux meds that raise the pH of my stomach fluids and interfere with vitamin B complex digestion from meat...etc. There are many similar conditions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    It's hard to comment, not knowing in what part of the world he lives, but a 2 hour commute to high school seems unreasonable.
    Not if you live in the country.
    Agreed. When I was growing up it was about 50 minutes to High School in perfect weather and nearly two hours when there was snow on the ground.

    There's a school district I did a bit of volunteer work for last year at a small dying lumber town where all the kids were about an hour and a half one way to the nearest high school. Lack of good internet made it worse. There are hundreds of towns like this in even in the US (because the government won't step up to its constitutional responsibility to provide essential infrastructure). Overseas it's even worse...one Marsh Arab village I used to patrol took nearly a hour to walk to the Tigris river, load all the kids in the bottom of a narrow wood boat, about twenty minutes to cross as the older kids stood up and pulled hand over hand a low slung rope to the other side, and than another 20 minutes to a half day school. Rinse repeat in reverse.

    As for vitamins....yes it's best to eat healthy. On the other hand there's a lot of conditions where supplements are advised. In the Pacific Northwest most folks should take Vitamin D supplements to compensate for our Africa rift valley evolved sunshine to D bodies just can't work well with an 8 hour cloudy/rainy days. In my case I take acid reflux meds that raise the pH of my stomach fluids and interfere with vitamin B complex digestion from meat...etc. There are many similar conditions.
    I am flying back to the PNW in 5 days! It is overcast ..rainy and no sun. I just follow my doc's orders. I take few meds other than eyes, premarin, and an allergy spray. I am starting a 3 year regimen of allergy shots in January...UGH...I cook from scratch and fresh...and I can some of our food. I only take the supplements my doc says except for BIOTIN for hair and nails..

    Some friends of ours kids had a 2 hour commute to school each way...old lumber town..I GET IT!
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    I knew I should have listed better sources, but they were on a different computer:
    Historical variation in the mineral composition of edible horticultural products - WRAP: Warwick Research Archive Portal (Journal of Horticultural Sciences and Biotechnology)

    Synthetic Nitrogen Fertilizers Deplete Soil Nitrogen: A Global Dilemma for Sustainable Cereal Production (Journal of Environmental Quality) https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publ...cles/38/6/2295

    Some pesticides can reduce soil fertility (Chemistry World)

    Declining Fruit and Vegetable Nutrient Composition: What Is the Evidence? (Hort Science)
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    I reckon one should always take a good look at what mixtures and compounds they are supplementing their bodies with. Most of the multivitamins and mineral supplements over here are horrible in terms of bio-availability. Magnesium is a good example; It helps mood, alertness and nerve function - but most people are below the recommended levels. Most of the magnesium come as magnesium hydroxide or magnesium oxide which our bodies are pretty damn awful at absorbing. You have magnesium aspartate that is way easier for us to metabolize but also poses serious counter-indicators due to the aspartame binding. Go for glycinate, citrate or carbonate. Magnesium counters calcium uptake and vice versa so consider that factor as well as all other interactions.

    I believe multi-vitamins, in it's generic widespread form, to pretty much even itself out, on it's way out, while giving you more or less nothing except a somewhat okay taste experience in it's fizzy, water soluble tablet form.
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    I repeat

    A number of proper studies have shown that, on average, people who take multivitamins die earlier than those who don't.

    That is a pretty strong hint that they aint too good for you!
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    What on Earth are you talking about? You've popped into two threads to tell us you want information on showers...
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    What on Earth are you talking about? You've popped into two threads to tell us you want information on showers...
    And by an odd coincidence, he has posted links to a website selling showers.... Another not-very competent spammer, I suspect.
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    *cough*....ok ....I'll behave
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    I repeat

    A number of proper studies have shown that, on average, people who take multivitamins die earlier than those who don't.

    That is a pretty strong hint that they aint too good for you!
    No, it's a pretty strong hint that people who already have health problems are more likely to take vitamins in an attempt to make themselves feel better than people who feel fine. Correlation, not causation.

    Kind of reminds me of the study that said people who were slightly overweight lived longer than people who were normal weight, and didn't exclude smokers or people who'd lost weight because they'd experienced serious illnesses, which some people interpreted as meaning that being overweight is healthy.

    Can I assume that the multivitamin studies were based on self-reporting? The results would really only be useful if they reflected the subject's vitamin-taking habits over many years. Taking (or not taking) vitamins for a month will not have any effect on your life expectancy (unless maybe you take such a high dose of something that you instantly kill yourself). Any animal studies in laboratory conditions?
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    Seeing as we asked nicely, the Annals of Internal Medicine has kindly provided an editorial based on a couple of large research projects. This Respectful Insolence post goes through the editorial and 3 research projects.

    Supplements: Flushing your money down the toilet in expensive urine – Respectful Insolence

    And here's the editorial in question Annals of Internal Medicine | Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements

    Surprise, surprise, the papers are behind a paywall, but the RI post gives a good summary.
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    Alec

    Those studies were carried out by professional researchers, and published in peer reviewed reputable journals. The less healthy vitamin takers were a recognised factor and compensated for. The end result still showed that multivitamin takers died younger than those who did not take them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    I repeat

    A number of proper studies have shown that, on average, people who take multivitamins die earlier than those who don't.

    That is a pretty strong hint that they aint too good for you!
    No, it's a pretty strong hint that people who already have health problems are more likely to take vitamins in an attempt to make themselves feel better than people who feel fine. Correlation, not causation.

    Kind of reminds me of the study that said people who were slightly overweight lived longer than people who were normal weight, and didn't exclude smokers or people who'd lost weight because they'd experienced serious illnesses, which some people interpreted as meaning that being overweight is healthy.

    Can I assume that the multivitamin studies were based on self-reporting? The results would really only be useful if they reflected the subject's vitamin-taking habits over many years. Taking (or not taking) vitamins for a month will not have any effect on your life expectancy (unless maybe you take such a high dose of something that you instantly kill yourself). Any animal studies in laboratory conditions?
    Generally vitamins come in two varieties, those that don't stay in your body very long and those that can build up in the body to dangerous levels. Anybody with a computer connected to the Internet can easily do all the research they need about any vitamin and learn the good and bad about each one.

    For those people that eat a good varied diet and get enough exercise and sleep, should probably save their money and not worry to much about taking extra vitamins. However, for many of us that kind of life is not possible or we simply choose to live a less healthy lifestyle. A lifestyle where taking supplements can be very beneficial in keeping you in a better state of health.

    I tend to believe the length of your life depends on some key categories, of which the most obvious is your genetic make up (what is the average lifespan of your family members). Next, your upbringing such as how you take care of yourself on a daily basis. Your body is usually pretty good at repairing itself, however the more wear & tear you put it through will play an important roll in how long your life will be. What do I mean by wear & tear? Every time you get sick for whatever reason puts stress on the body. If you don't get enough sleep, and have a poor diet and get very little exercise, that will add a small stress continuously over time, and will make it tougher for your body repair itself or even protect it from becoming infected, which adds additional stress. Anyway, the list of stresses that humans put their bodies through is almost endless.

    Each type of stress requires your body to use it's resources to make the repairs. If your body runs out of a particular vitamin or group of vitamins that it needs and you are not replacing it fast enough, then there will be additional wear & tear that takes place in your body. For those times where you have stressed your body past it's available resources, the right supplements can be a very big help. How can you know when you are adding daily stress to your body? How do you feel most of the time. Do you smoke, drink alcohol and/or sugary sodas, work long hours at a stressful job or any job you don't like.

    Know which vitamins deplete rapidly, such as vitamin C. To my way of thinking who cares if you piss most of it away, if it's there when you most need it. If your body needs that extra vitamin C even one or two times a year it's worth taking the supplements as you virtually can't overdose on vitamin C.

    While I used vitamin C as an example, the same applies to any vitamin that doesn't build up in the body. Let's talk about vitamin D3, sure your skin can produce it if you get out in the sun light most every day. But, for many of us, that doesn't happen and if you don't maintain a good blood level of that vitamin, you can suffer many problems one of which is cognitive as your memory suffers a great deal when your blood levels are low over extended periods of time. Also, one size vitamin D3 supplement doesn't fit all as everybody doesn't have the same absorption of that vitamin. You must have a blood test with each change of supplement dosage to determine what is your optimum level of supplementation will be. Next, be advised that there is a lot of controversy about how much vitamin D3 is to much, but the trend has been to increase well over the current government recommended levels.

    I like supplements, but I also, put in a great deal of time researching every supplement I plan on taking. Next I keep all my doctors informed about which supplements I'm taking and the dosages, so they can advise me on any changes needed because of prescribed medications I need to take. Many supplements will cause problems with medications prescribed by your doctor.
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    I've never taken a vitamin supplement or any other supplement as an adult. Unless a person has a test that shows a specific deficiency, then fail to see the purpose. The body is quite efficient. If I was moderately low in some vitamin, mineral, etc. then I'd be inclined to eat a specific food.

    I say this as a male. Women can have a few more issues when it comes to iron, calcium, etc.
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    To Badrobot.

    The excuse that some people find it hard to have a balanced diet does not wash with me. In this modern and wealthy world, there is a supermarket or greengrocer on every street corner. I often consume pretty much my full daily quota of vitamins and minerals and antioxidants, flavenoids etc, before breakfast. That is because I start the day with a glass of mango and orange juice, and eat several raw fruits before breakfast.

    It is more difficult for me than for many, since I live 45 minutes from the nearest supermarket. But my wife or I or both go to town once a week and stock up. There is no excuse for city dwellers not to eat a balanced diet, since the food required is so readily available. Not doing it is pure laziness. Or is it just an addiction to crap food?

    When someone takes multivitamin (or single vitamin) supplements, there is a very strong tendency to overdo it. Even vitamin C becomes toxic in large doses, and long term harmful effects of medium doses may still be there. The empirical result of surveys shows that those who take multivitamins live shorter lives. How much simpler is it? Do I have to take the scientific fact and wrap it around your head?

    One of the researchers claims that the human body generates its own antioxidants in relation to need. A degree of antioxidant in food is, of course, good, but excess just suppresses the production of the natural product. In effect, you replace a superior product with an inferior one. So the best advice is always to eat a good balanced diet and forget the supplements that do you far more harm than good.
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    The empirical result of surveys shows that those who take multivitamins live shorter lives. How much simpler is it? Do I have to take the scientific fact and wrap it around your head?
    Probably pushing that too far. It's most likely the result because people who know they are at most risk of some ailment because of family or their individual history take more vitamins. Their correct perception of high risk results in both the higher vitamin taking and mortality than those at less risk. Something very similar happens for those who pursue preventive health care, who also appear to have a high mortality.
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    You are not helping. And frankly, I think that will not be correct. People do not take multivitamins because of rational decisions. They do so because they have been talked into it by advertisements, or some other dubious source.

    Just an added point. The latest New Scientist has a snippet from the Harvard School of Public Health.
    Apparently, the extra cost to eat a healthy balanced diet, compared to a crap diet is $ 1-50 per day more. I do not think anyone can use this miniscule cost as an excuse.
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    Your a bit to opinated about other peoples lives. I'm just suggesting many people have lives that don't lend themselves to living the good healthy lifestyles you make it sound so easy to do. Also, the current information just released is not being accepted by all the government agencies in that arena. No one knows more about my life than I do. I then combine that knowledge with my research on the various supplements I'm interested in. If something looks like it might be worth trying I will usually give it 3 months to make a difference that is noticeable to me. If I can't see any positive result I won't keep taking it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Lynx

    You are not helping. And frankly, I think that will not be correct. People do not take multivitamins because of rational decisions. They do so because they have been talked into it by advertisements, or some other dubious source.

    Just an added point. The latest New Scientist has a snippet from the Harvard School of Public Health.
    Apparently, the extra cost to eat a healthy balanced diet, compared to a crap diet is $ 1-50 per day more. I do not think anyone can use this miniscule cost as an excuse.
    I guess it's show time than. Please put up the studies relating vitamins to shorter lives and if available we can actually look at what the authors who studied this topic had to say.
    --

    I also very much doubt the low cost increase. A small bag of salad cost more than 2 bucks for example.

    A lot of the confusion with food in the US surround the idea that most of the population doesn't even know what a balanced diet might look like other than a vague notion is contains taste that don't taste very good. USDA/FDA guidelines are a public education failure that one can only view if ones online and has the appropriate plug in, food companies are allowed to make entirely unsubstantiated claims with hardly any restrictions and the internet is generally so flooded with infomercials of even more misinformation that it's difficult to find credible information even if proficient at recognizing it.
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    The excuse that some people find it hard to have a balanced diet does not wash with me. In this modern and wealthy world, there is a supermarket or greengrocer on every street corner.
    That's pretty well true for Oz and NZ people and mostly true for Brits. I've been shocked this past year or so to find out that it really isn't true in many places in the US. There are apparently substantial portions of some cities that properly fit the description of food desert. Where lemons and limes are literally the only fresh fruit in a supermarket, and there are no, repeat no, fresh vegetables.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The excuse that some people find it hard to have a balanced diet does not wash with me. In this modern and wealthy world, there is a supermarket or greengrocer on every street corner.
    That's pretty well true for Oz and NZ people and mostly true for Brits. I've been shocked this past year or so to find out that it really isn't true in many places in the US. There are apparently substantial portions of some cities that properly fit the description of food desert. Where lemons and limes are literally the only fresh fruit in a supermarket, and there are no, repeat no, fresh vegetables.
    That's also a very good point. The best fruit and veggies I've ever had in the US was when I lived in California, and I've been to a lot of places in the US. Even California comes in 2nd to stores in Japan. I've never seen so many perfect fruits and vegetables in a grocery store than I did when I visited Japan.
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    For those unfamiliar with the term "food deserts" here's a web site by the USDA that defines and shows maps based on their surveys:
    USDA Defines Food Deserts | American Nutrition AssociationI hadn't encountered the term before my wife and I visited Ocean Shores , WA looking at a potential retirement house. Though it's taunted by the community as an ideal place to retire, it leave a lot to be desired. No cable or DSL internet, the nearest full service hospital 45 minutes away in the best weather (over an hour much of the winter), and a tiny market with tiny selection of badly overpriced produce; the nearest full grocer is an hour away by car. We scratched that place off our list. But there's thousands of similar small communities like it in the US.
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    Royal Society | Biology Letters

    The above reference applies to one of the studies (this one on laboratory animals, meaning the objections from human epidemiology do not apply).

    On obtaining healthy food. There may be places in the USA where it is difficult to get a good range of healthy fruit and vegetables, though I have not seen any in my several visits. I suspect it just means taking a little more trouble. I drive 45 minutes each way to visit a supermarket. I find it hard to imagine many Americans having to go to more effort than that to get healthy food. Most people should be able to eat healthily without too much extra effort.

    On the business of education, I do not think it is entirely the responsibility of the government to educate American adults. When it comes to their health, and the health of their families, I do not think it too much to ask that they find out. There are certainly plenty of people and organisations to advise them.
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    I drive 45 minutes each way to visit a supermarket. I find it hard to imagine many Americans having to go to more effort than that to get healthy food. Most people should be able to eat healthily without too much extra effort.
    1. You have a car.
    2. More than imagination is required.

    There's even a government program in the US relating to food deserts. Agricultural Marketing Service - Creating Access to Healthy, Affordable Food

    USDA's Economic Research Service estimates that 23.5 million people live in food deserts. More than half of those people (13.5 million) are low-income. A one-mile marker may not be appropriate to use in rural areas where the population is more sparsely distributed and where vehicle ownership is high. To further refine the number of people who may be affected by food deserts, a 10-mile marker is used to consider food access in rural areas. 2.3 million people live in low-income rural areas that are more than 10 miles from a supermarket.

    That's the same as the whole population of Australia not having access to decent, affordable food.
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    Experts: Don't Waste Your Money on Multivitamins: MedlinePlus

    To Lynx

    The above reference is unambiguous in its expert advice to people not to waste their money on multivitamins. The only benefit of taking vitamins is to the bank balance of the companies making them.

    To Adelady

    If someone cannot get healthy food, they may have an excuse, but even 23 million is a very small percentage of the American people. I suspect that most of those 23 million could improve their diet dramatically with simple gardening. A few old paint buckets filled with soil and compost (you can get compost by scraping it out of gutters, or picking up leaf litter), and given water every couple days, and with chard plants and/or parsley can provide a big chunk of your daily healthy food requirement. And for close to zero cost. A proper garden will do even better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    For those unfamiliar with the term "food deserts" here's a web site by the USDA that defines and shows maps based on their surveys:
    USDA Defines Food Deserts | American Nutrition AssociationI hadn't encountered the term before my wife and I visited Ocean Shores , WA looking at a potential retirement house. Though it's taunted by the community as an ideal place to retire, it leave a lot to be desired. No cable or DSL internet, the nearest full service hospital 45 minutes away in the best weather (over an hour much of the winter), and a tiny market with tiny selection of badly overpriced produce; the nearest full grocer is an hour away by car. We scratched that place off our list. But there's thousands of similar small communities like it in the US.
    Nice link, however, the same color in Washington as California doesn't mean equal quality in fruits and vegitabale being offered for sale. But I will say when I lived in Redondo Beach Ca., I had 6 supermarkets within a 5 minute drive from my house and if I wanted ready to eat food delivered to my door within 30 minutes, I had my pick of nationalities to pick from and the food was always very good. The one thing I regret most about leaving California was leaving all that good eating behind. But that's all hindsight as I never imagined that the rest of the country wasn't up to California standards in food.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Royal Society | Biology Letters

    The above reference applies to one of the studies (this one on laboratory animals, meaning the objections from human epidemiology do not apply).
    I searched and found that one as well, but nothing about humans. Perhaps you overstated your case a wee bit?

    On obtaining healthy food. There may be places in the USA where it is difficult to get a good range of healthy fruit and vegetables, though I have not seen any in my several visits. I suspect it just means taking a little more trouble. I drive 45 minutes each way to visit a supermarket. I find it hard to imagine many Americans having to go to more effort than that to get healthy food. Most people should be able to eat healthily without too much extra effort.
    There are a lot of places in the US where you can't. That's the point of the "food desert" measurements. In the US that 45 minute drive translates into about 10 bucks of vehicle gas and maintenance...assuming you have a car to begin with (most do--but many poor don't have one they trust to go that far, because when it breaks there's no public transportation to get you to work).

    On the business of education, I do not think it is entirely the responsibility of the government to educate American adults. When it comes to their health, and the health of their families, I do not think it too much to ask that they find out. There are certainly plenty of people and organisations to advise them.
    Where do they learn it than? If anything is generational and cultural it's the types of foods people eat--the default is an unhealthy diet for many families made all the worse by easy and cheap access to more unhealthy food. (my own traditional New England foods start everything with a pound of butter, and pint of whole milk and nearly no greens because they were a late summer-earl fall only thing in Maine).

    As of a final exam I took yesterday, I'm now fully qualified to teach health in WA state middle and secondary school, one of the more demanding teacher qualification programs in the US. Non of my formal education had anything do with nutrition. The state curriculum standards have the very bare minimum of nutrition --something most teachers wouldn't spend more than a week or two on because it's not being measured in an standardized test (while other topics are). There's not a single office for nutrition in my town...or a dietitian. If I go for a medical appointment, it will take about two months to see a doctor, and most times they are hurried and will only discuss very specific problems--nutrition won't be one of them unless it is directly related to a medical problem I already have--if he tried to refer me to a nutritionist it will be denied unless it meets the same criteria (I already have a problem).

    Lastly if I go do Google you get to see what fills in the vacuum of this lack of information--internet garbage for the most part. In the first two pages, 4 adds for vitamins at the top..mixed below are four credible pages: a nimh web site, usda page (that's actually pretty good), medlineplus and a wikilink. The rest is come ONs and adds to vitamin companies or organic and the like pseudoscience. I'd hate to see the search pages of someone who doesn't spend a dozen or so hours roaming on science sites.

    To sum it up there's darn poor education about and what it completely insufficient to counter some of the deep cultural bias towards eating unhealthy. There's also little attempt to educate children about diet, and a lack of healthy food in many American communities. It's ugly but that's the situation.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; December 21st, 2013 at 07:43 PM.
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    I have exactly zero formal education in nutrition. But what I have learned outside any educational institution would enable me to give nutrition advice in considerable detail. However, even that is not needed.

    A healthy diet can be obtained by simply adding some raw fruit, some green vegetables, some assorted vegetables, nuts, and some lean meat to your diet. In spite of the fact that there are numerous diet fads, in which assorted idiots say you must eat their selection of foods, the human body is very flexible and adaptable in relation to diet. Masai who eat almost nothing but milk, blood and meat have high levels of health and low levels of heart disease. Traditional Inuits who ate almost zero plant material also had very strong cardiac health. It takes very little to have a good, healthy diet.

    And as I pointed out, it is extremely easy to grow some green veges to supplement your diet. If you grow chard and parsley, and otherwise eat lean meat, potatoes, and a few other bits and pieces, you will be a lot healthier than surviving on McDonalds and French fries, and those bloody awful multivitamin pills. Even with the case mentioned earlier, with just lemons and limes in the supermarket as fruit, you can do well. Lemons and limes are rich in vitamins C and E and in assorted antioxidants. Squeeze the juice into a glass with water and drink. I enjoy very dilute lemon juice with no sugar.

    Again, there is no excuse to have a crappy diet. It is really easy to learn the basics of healthy eating and to buy or grow what you need.
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    Antioxidant vitamins and mineral supple - PubMed Mobile

    This is another NIH report on multivitamins.

    Epidemiological work shows no benefit towards general health or cancer, and detriment in some cases. Which is what I have been saying all along.

    If you are smart, you will avoid vitamin supplements. Try to improve your diet instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Seeing as we asked nicely, the Annals of Internal Medicine has kindly provided an editorial based on a couple of large research projects. This Respectful Insolence post goes through the editorial and 3 research projects.

    Supplements: Flushing your money down the toilet in expensive urine – Respectful Insolence

    And here's the editorial in question Annals of Internal Medicine | Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements

    Surprise, surprise, the papers are behind a paywall, but the RI post gives a good summary.
    Thanks...I take D cause my doc told me to...cut back on Calcium...because they told me I had quite enough....and I take biotin for my nails...and frankly it does work.

    But I know people who take 30 different vitamins a day...and no, I do not take an every day vitamin. I cannot convince anyone of those that they aren't needed.....they swear by all 30 or so plus their multi...

    One person pays $100.00 a month for her vitamins Isagenix?????
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    Even with the case mentioned earlier, with just lemons and limes in the supermarket as fruit, you can do well.
    I hate to tell you this, but the lemons and limes are usually placed next to the booze. They're only available because of their use in mixed drinks.

    (I know, I know. I couldn't believe it either.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Even with the case mentioned earlier, with just lemons and limes in the supermarket as fruit, you can do well.
    I hate to tell you this, but the lemons and limes are usually placed next to the booze. They're only available because of their use in mixed drinks.

    (I know, I know. I couldn't believe it either.)
    Really? Ours are in the produce area, which is usually not anywhere near the alcohol! However, I get mine from my neighbor in Hawai'i!
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    Ours are in the produce area
    That little gem came from an overview of shops and supermarkets that have no "produce area" at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Ours are in the produce area
    That little gem came from an overview of shops and supermarkets that have no "produce area" at all.
    Mahalo for the clarification! *S*
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Doing that for a year or so couldn't affect your sight. And it doesn't matter anyway. Whether it's these circumstances or any other, if you have problems with your vision, you need to get to an optometrist for an eye test. You might need a (new) prescription for glasses. You might need some other therapy or adjustment to make reading easier and less stressful.
    Yes adelady. I have my glasses. But if I continue reading in the car won't my sight get worse? The eye has to adjust to the changing focus all the time so isn't this the cause ?
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Organic crops are treated more harshly than conventional, and several vitamins (C and E especially) are made by plants to protect them against adverse conditions. So, the fact that organic crops are not sprayed with effective insecticides means that they get attacked more by insects (one reason organic fruit is more blemished), and the plants make, not only more vitamins, but more natural insecticides, which are hamful to human health.
    You mean that plants naturally make insecticides? I never heard about it before o.OThank you for your useful resources anyway
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    There's a school district I did a bit of volunteer work for last year at a small dying lumber town where all the kids were about an hour and a half one way to the nearest high school. Lack of good internet made it worse. There are hundreds of towns like this in even in the US (because the government won't step up to its constitutional responsibility to provide essential infrastructure). Overseas it's even worse...one Marsh Arab village I used to patrol took nearly a hour to walk to the Tigris river, load all the kids in the bottom of a narrow wood boat, about twenty minutes to cross as the older kids stood up and pulled hand over hand a low slung rope to the other side, and than another 20 minutes to a half day school. Rinse repeat in reverse. .
    That's much worse than me! It's simply the traffic thing and also the distance between my school and home ,and I don't have to pull hand over a low slung rope to the other side of the river>< That's an ardurous journey to school!
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    You all have given me a lot of useful information about taking multivitamins. Thank you so much. Could you tell me one more thing? What about "DHA" and "Fish oil" ? I dont think they can be harmful ,can they? Many say that they directly supports the brain and nervous system because they are composed of choline which is a composition of acetylcholine. And though I don't think they can be excessive, what do ypu think about taking them as supplements?
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    Fish oil supplements probably do no real harm. But I would suggest that, like anything else, they be taken in small doses, if at all. More recent data implies they are less useful than earlier reports suggested.
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    Yes adelady. I have my glasses. But if I continue reading in the car won't my sight get worse? The eye has to adjust to the changing focus all the time so isn't this the cause ?
    I don't understand what you mean by this. The only drawback to reading in the car I've ever heard of is that some people get carsick.

    And no. It's not that changing focus frequently leads to eye problems. It's that not changing focus often enough causes eye problems. (This was demonstrated quite well by looking at the differences between schoolboys in Israel - the ones who do the intensive religious studies and don't play outside have a much, much higher rate of myopia needing prescriptions for glasses.)

    It's also a problem in some industries requiring close, detailed work, especially if the workers are paid by the piece rather than by the hour. Sore eyes, bad backs, low pay: the cost of false eyelash glamour | World news | The Observer
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Fish oil supplements probably do no real harm. But I would suggest that, like anything else, they be taken in small doses, if at all. More recent data implies they are less useful than earlier reports suggested.
    Usually when I here fish oil, I think Omega-3 supplements which is good for you. However, you can get Omega-3 from other sources, which is good because some fish oils contain high levels of mercury which can be very bad for you.
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    It would be rare for mercury levels in fish to be high enough to harm you. Not impossible, but very unlikely. My suggestion is to forget the mercury. I am personally reluctant to eat fish for a different reason. It encourages a rapaceous commercial fishing industry that already over-fishes the oceans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    To Bad Robot

    It would be rare for mercury levels in fish to be high enough to harm you. Not impossible, but very unlikely. My suggestion is to forget the mercury. I am personally reluctant to eat fish for a different reason. It encourages a rapacious commercial fishing industry that already over-fishes the oceans.
    The problem with mercury is that it stays in the body, so tiny amounts every time you eat fish will build up to dangerous levels over time. Most of us don't rat enough fish to worry about. But I do think there should be limits on the fishing industry or there won't be many good fish to eat left.
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    Fish oil benefits are pretty well established and beneficial (and a heck of a lot cheaper) for people with naturally high triglycerides.

    In several studies on over the counter fish oils the amount of mercury was found to be either undetectable or negligible. Here is one.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14632570

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    Got a lab report with hand note from my doctor last week that showed a recent blood test shows low vitamin D (something shared 2/3 of the population near Seattle), despite being outside a lot. I'm on vit-D supplements for the rest of the winter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Fish oil benefits are pretty well established and beneficial (and a heck of a lot cheaper) for people with naturally high triglycerides.

    In several studies on over the counter fish oils the amount of mercury was found to be either undetectable or negligible. Here is one.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14632570

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    Got a lab report with hand note from my doctor last week that showed a recent blood test shows low vitamin D (something shared 2/3 of the population near Seattle), despite being outside a lot. I'm on vit-D supplements for the rest of the winter.
    Thank you so much Lynx.
    Anyway, in your case, the lack of v.D, did the doctor tell you why? as you said, despite being outside a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nucleara View Post

    Thank you so much Lynx.
    Anyway, in your case, the lack of v.D, did the doctor tell you why? as you said, despite being outside a lot.
    Not specifically. But it's no mystery. Winters here have short, cool and mostly cloudy days. Even folks that go outside a lot are covered up because of the rain and chill and probably only producing a fraction of what their body is capable of producing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post

    Not specifically. But it's no mystery. Winters here have short, cool and mostly cloudy days. Even folks that go outside a lot are covered up because of the rain and chill and probably only producing a fraction of what their body is capable of producing.
    I see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nucleara View Post

    Thank you so much Lynx.
    Anyway, in your case, the lack of v.D, did the doctor tell you why? as you said, despite being outside a lot.
    Not specifically. But it's no mystery. Winters here have short, cool and mostly cloudy days. Even folks that go outside a lot are covered up because of the rain and chill and probably only producing a fraction of what their body is capable of producing.
    Some good info about vitamin D3 at the link below.

    D for Vitamin D « Below the Belt: Women's Health

    Also this is what the Life Extension Foundation recommends.

    Vitamin D is synthesized in the body from sunlight. But, due to winter season, weather conditions, and sunscreens, the body's ability to produce optimal vitamin D levels may be inhibited. In fact, it has been proposed that annual fluctuations in vitamin D levels explain the seasonality of influenza. All of these factors point to the value of taking a daily vitamin D supplement to ensure optimal vitamin D intake.

    Vitamin D has long provided significant support for healthy bone density. However, scientists have also validated the critical role that vitamin D plays in regulating healthy cell division and differentiation, and its profound effects on human immunity. These findings link a deficiency of vitamin D to a host of common age-related problems.

    The objective of taking a vitamin D supplement is to achieve 25-hydroxyvitamin D blood levels of 50 ng/mL (and higher). Life Extension's® analysis of over 13,000 vitamin D blood tests reveals that the minimum intake for most aging people should be around 7,000 IU a day. Some individuals (such as those weighing more than 180 pounds) may require higher potencies of vitamin D. When combined with 1,000-3,000 IU obtained from multinutrient formulas, this 7,000 IU vitamin D3 capsule should enable these individuals to attain 25-hydroxyvitamin D blood levels above the desired range of 50 ng/mL.

    - See more at: VITAMIN D3 7000 IU - Life Extension - 60 Caps
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nucleara View Post

    Thank you so much Lynx.
    Anyway, in your case, the lack of v.D, did the doctor tell you why? as you said, despite being outside a lot.
    Not specifically. But it's no mystery. Winters here have short, cool and mostly cloudy days. Even folks that go outside a lot are covered up because of the rain and chill and probably only producing a fraction of what their body is capable of producing.
    Some good info about vitamin D3 at the link below.

    D for Vitamin D « Below the Belt: Women's Health

    Also this is what the Life Extension Foundation recommends.

    Vitamin D is synthesized in the body from sunlight. But, due to winter season, weather conditions, and sunscreens, the body's ability to produce optimal vitamin D levels may be inhibited. In fact, it has been proposed that annual fluctuations in vitamin D levels explain the seasonality of influenza. All of these factors point to the value of taking a daily vitamin D supplement to ensure optimal vitamin D intake.

    Vitamin D has long provided significant support for healthy bone density. However, scientists have also validated the critical role that vitamin D plays in regulating healthy cell division and differentiation, and its profound effects on human immunity. These findings link a deficiency of vitamin D to a host of common age-related problems.

    The objective of taking a vitamin D supplement is to achieve 25-hydroxyvitamin D blood levels of 50 ng/mL (and higher). Life Extension's® analysis of over 13,000 vitamin D blood tests reveals that the minimum intake for most aging people should be around 7,000 IU a day. Some individuals (such as those weighing more than 180 pounds) may require higher potencies of vitamin D. When combined with 1,000-3,000 IU obtained from multinutrient formulas, this 7,000 IU vitamin D3 capsule should enable these individuals to attain 25-hydroxyvitamin D blood levels above the desired range of 50 ng/mL.

    - See more at: VITAMIN D3 7000 IU - Life Extension - 60 Caps
    Thank you. I better understand why my doctor recommended I take it.
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    A vitamin deficiency may not have to do with how much of certain vitamin you get into your food, but with your small intestine's ability to extract vitamins and other nutrients. People with Crohn's disease, for example, often have vitamin deficiencies.

    My brother-in-law has celiac disease which was not diagnosed until he was middle-aged. He was anemic for most of his life and was treated with iron pills and told to eat lots of red meat, which was useless because these things did not address the cause of the problem, which was that his intestine had been almost destroyed by his eating gluten.

    Since everyone's digestive system is different, two people can eat the same foods yet derive different nutritional benefits from them because they don't absorb nutrients the same way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    A vitamin deficiency may not have to do with how much of certain vitamin you get into your food, but with your small intestine's ability to extract vitamins and other nutrients. People with Crohn's disease, for example, often have vitamin deficiencies.

    My brother-in-law has celiac disease which was not diagnosed until he was middle-aged. He was anemic for most of his life and was treated with iron pills and told to eat lots of red meat, which was useless because these things did not address the cause of the problem, which was that his intestine had been almost destroyed by his eating gluten.

    Since everyone's digestive system is different, two people can eat the same foods yet derive different nutritional benefits from them because they don't absorb nutrients the same way.
    A very good point Alec. With vitamin D3 they can test your blood levels, but I've never heard of testing blood levels for other necessary nutrients and I have to wonder why. For all the vitamins and minerals that the body needs, there is an ideal blood level that should be maintained for the best possible health. If you don't know what those are, how can you hope to have the best diet for your own personal health? For most of us we vary our diets and some of us take additional supplements to try and cover our bases and if we feel better we tend to keep doing what we are doing hoping to keep that better feeling. But we are just guessing and sometimes not having all the nutrients we need only manifest over time (maybe years).
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    As I said earlier. Do not take vitamins unless your doctor tells you to. If you don't trust your doctor, then get another one. Indiscriminate consumption of vitamins does not improve health. It just makes the vitamin vendors rich.
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    And here's an example of what you should look for in research results assessing the health benefits of a vitamin.

    Note that this particular double blind trial compared a specific dose of a single vitamin against a placebo, a drug, and a drug/ vitamin combo.
    Also note that the outcomes are expressed in observable, measurable terms - there's nothing here about "feeling more energetic" nor about "boosting the immune system".

    Alzheimer's patients' decline slowed by vitamin E supplements, scientists say | Society | theguardian.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    And here's an example of what you should look for in research results assessing the health benefits of a vitamin.

    Note that this particular double blind trial compared a specific dose of a single vitamin against a placebo, a drug, and a drug/ vitamin combo.
    Also note that the outcomes are expressed in observable, measurable terms - there's nothing here about "feeling more energetic" nor about "boosting the immune system".

    Alzheimer's patients' decline slowed by vitamin E supplements, scientists say | Society | theguardian.com
    The results of that study are very recent (good catch). Have you also seen the studies that show an increase in some cancers do to taking vitamin E supplements? However the guy or gal with Alzheimer's probably wouldn't be to worried about that. I know I wouldn't.
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    Yes. The problem with a lot of people taking supplements is that very few stick to the recommended daily amounts.

    The temptation to say more of something good for you will be better for you seems universal. It applies to people who think they need meat every day/ every meal just as much as it does to people who think that if you can get health benefits from leafy green vegetables you should eat them at every meal. In both cases you end up with problems of overconsumption - of protein and fat from meat or oxalic acid from kale and spinach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Yes. The problem with a lot of people taking supplements is that very few stick to the recommended daily amounts.
    Nor taking the ones that really need, such as the studies that show more than half the American population has depleted their reserves of vitamin D by mid winter and should be taking more.
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    Yes, some people overdo things because they are looking for an easy fix. However, recommended daily amounts are only based on statistical averages and do not apply to everyone - different body weights, metabolisms, absorption issues and diets (if you are vegan or have intolerance/allergy issues, for example). There are also disagreements about what the recommended amounts should be. For example, some people think the official amounts for Vitamin D3 are too low. I take more and it keeps me healthy.

    I once experimented with veganism and, despite taking the recommended amount of B12 for vegans, I started losing my memory for basic words. For example, if I wanted you to hand me a pen, I wouldn't know what a pen was called, and I would say "Give me the ... the thing" and have to gesticulate. This stopped when I started taking massive B12 doses - and I eventually started eating meat again because I could tell the vegan thing wasn't working. Clearly, many vegans do fine with the recommended regimen. My body just doesn't deal with B12 the way theirs does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Bing View Post
    Yes, some people overdo things because they are looking for an easy fix. However, recommended daily amounts are only based on statistical averages and do not apply to everyone - different body weights, metabolisms, absorption issues and diets (if you are vegan or have intolerance/allergy issues, for example). There are also disagreements about what the recommended amounts should be. For example, some people think the official amounts for Vitamin D3 are too low. I take more and it keeps me healthy.

    I once experimented with veganism and, despite taking the recommended amount of B12 for vegans, I started losing my memory for basic words. For example, if I wanted you to hand me a pen, I wouldn't know what a pen was called, and I would say "Give me the ... the thing" and have to gesticulate. This stopped when I started taking massive B12 doses - and I eventually started eating meat again because I could tell the vegan thing wasn't working. Clearly, many vegans do fine with the recommended regimen. My body just doesn't deal with B12 the way theirs does.
    Mine is iron...my body doesn't process it, and I I take iron, my body has really bad reaction! How did I find this out? They told me I was anemic so I OD'd on Iron and wound up having my liver going nuts.....so no iron, except what I take in via FOOD!

    You are so correct as to each of our bodies being different. I find it very interesting that before surgery now, that I can take my D vitamin but NO E or C...and last time I just stopped all of it for a week, and I didn't die or anything! *chuckle*

    I was brought up on herbal medicine. Mom was raised that way we took this tincture for this tea for this, etc. I think we are, as you stated, now looking for quick and easy results when all we really need to do is eat healthy and exercise. This is, of course, MY HUMBLE OPINION!
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  95. #94  
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    Iron compounds are just plain difficult to digest. They are quite toxic. The high strength prenatal vitamin that an obstrtician might priscribe for a pregnant woman might kill a toddler.
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    To me, having vitamin supplements is on the same spectrum as having a feeding tube. An omnivore should be able to maintain homeostasis without assistance. For reasons I won't discuss here, I also believe habituation to the *recommended* modern diet can diminish a person's intuitive awareness of nutrients, we then require assistance to get the right amounts. That's just talking about normally healthy people.

    I have no criticism for nutritional assistance when its incidental, like when you're in a coma or pregnant or in the army.
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    Well said, Pong.

    I totally agree. Vitamins should be taken only on a doctor's recomendation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Well said, Pong.

    I totally agree. Vitamins should be taken only on a doctor's recomendation.
    Most Americans seldom, if ever, see doctors until they reach middle age. A multi-vitamin is pretty harmless. And given the huge number that need vitamin D most folks should probably take a low dose supplement.
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    Lynx

    Your statement that multi-vitamins are harmless is an assumption. One that is not borne out by research, as I pointed out earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Lynx

    Your statement that multi-vitamins are harmless is an assumption. One that is not borne out by research, as I pointed out earlier.
    No it isn't.

    It's based in several studies.

    Multivitamin Use and Mortality in a Large Prospective StudyAnd general advise from credible sources such as the Harvard school of public health, which plainly suggest a standard multivitamin + vitamin D and avoid any megas doses.
    Vitamins | The Nutrition Source | Harvard School of Public Health

    Suggesting taking at only a doctors recommendation removes most of the American population, while a low dose multi-v is an easy way to make sure ones getting just about everything needed with little risk.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; January 2nd, 2014 at 03:15 PM.
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    Lynx

    You still have an assumption built in : that the multivitamins are taken in low dose. Experience shows this is not true. The studies I referenced earlier show that, on average, those who take multivitamins live shorter lives than those who don't. This may be due to over-dosing, but it is a real phenomenon.

    You can get much better and much safer insurance, and better health, by eating a balanced diet. If the foods for this are not readily available, then grow them. There are any number of health giving veges that grow very well in pots, with a little watering.
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