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Thread: What do we know about cannabis?

  1. #1 What do we know about cannabis? 
    Forum Freshman missarane's Avatar
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    Everywhere I look I see plenty of people raising up cannabis, plenty of "studies" that show how it can cure cancer and how it is not so damaging to our body, and it gives plenty of benefits.

    Oh well here`s what I know about it from anti drug campain I was at:
    Smoking it may cause: paranoia, dizziness, nausea, halucinations [if big dose], and weird behaviour changes. [ that`s all I can remember atm]
    Smoking it for a long term may cause: brain damage, loss of interest in career and friend issues, depression, loss of weight + other medical issues.

    So which ones to believe? What do you guys know about it?


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    well, i wouldn't put too much weight into what you learned at an anti-drug campaign. the same goes with the stuff usually spammed by the pot heads. my biggest problem with it is the amount of apathy demonstrated by my peers who overuse it.


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    It's just like a lot of other drugs. It's all about the dose and its frequency.

    Alcohol is the classic example. Makes you feel better in some way, tastes wonderful/horrible, helps to modulate digestion, mood, blood pressure in small doses, generally does little to no harm. Overuse leads to intoxication.

    Intoxication is a good English word. Some people think it's funny to see someone intoxicated. They need reminding that the word and the condition it describes include the word toxic. Alcohol can be fatal from one episode of overdose. It is more often a problem with longer term overuse - everything from mental deterioration to heart problems to liver cancer.

    Marijuana is both similar and different. The immediate effects are not much like those of alcohol. Some people say that for this reason alone it's a less harmful drug. (You're not likely to get into the equivalent of a drunken brawl when you're stoned, much more likely to be looking for something to eat.) I'm not so sure about pushing this argument too far. Whether you're affected by alcohol or by marijuana you still shouldn't be driving, or caring for children, or doing any demanding task (anyone think being stoned or a few drinks in is the right state for climbing a ladder or using a power tool?) or a job that requires any effort or concentration - which leaves not very many jobs you could do.

    And both drugs, along with all other psychoactive substances that I know of, should be kept well away from children and teenagers whose brains are still developing.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Masters Degree mat5592's Avatar
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    i also remember reading a study fairly recently relating early pot use (in your teens) to declined IQ. i can't seem to find the original research that's available for everyone to read, but here's a summary:

    Adolescent Pot Use Leaves Lasting Mental Deficits | Duke Today
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  6. #5  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    Everywhere I look I see plenty of people raising up cannabis, plenty of "studies" that show how it can cure cancer and how it is not so damaging to our body, and it gives plenty of benefits.

    Oh well here`s what I know about it from anti drug campain I was at:
    Smoking it may cause: paranoia, dizziness, nausea, halucinations [if big dose], and weird behaviour changes. [ that`s all I can remember atm]
    Smoking it for a long term may cause: brain damage, loss of interest in career and friend issues, depression, loss of weight + other medical issues.

    So which ones to believe? What do you guys know about it?
    I have never met a wealthy productive pot head outside of artists. And the majority of artists are not wealthy, though they can be productive. Whether or not society values what they produce varies. Most of the artists I know personally, fall into the "Starving Artists" category and they are lucky to pull enough money at a flee market to pay for their campsite for the night. The artists that tend to be able to make a steady living are not the hippy type of artists but are the kind of artists that keep a clear head and listen to their client to produce the art that the client visualizes rather than whatever hallucinations creep into their own heads during dreams or being high.

    There are always exceptions, but on average, pot heads usually just end up fat, smelly and livin in mamma's basement.

    for clarification : when I say pot head, i mean someone who uses it on a daily basis and for purely recreational purposes. I don't know anyone that uses it medicinally. I know some who claim to but they were pot heads before they developed any medical need for it. And I suspect they use the medical condition as justification for continuing to use it excessively.

    I also don't think it should be illegal any more than alcohol is. I don't see it as any worse and I think people should be allowed to make their own choices. but age restrictions on who you can sell it to should be enforced as with alcohol and cigarettes.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    When you are high from anything you do not function properly so therefore your whole mind/body is out of sync with themselves which can and does lead to driving accidents, accidents in general and a feeling of euphoria that lasts only until you use more pot. If that is what you want then it is your choice but if you do please do not drive , you might harm others on the roads where you live, stay at home and listen to music or do artwork.
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  8. #7  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    When you are high from anything you do not function properly so therefore your whole mind/body is out of sync with themselves which can and does lead to driving accidents, accidents in general and a feeling of euphoria that lasts only until you use more pot. If that is what you want then it is your choice but if you do please do not drive , you might harm others on the roads where you live, stay at home and listen to music or do artwork.
    Agreed 100%... you should not be allowed to operate any motor vehicle under the influence of any intoxicating substance. But I think that is already the law (in the US), or am I mistaken?
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  9. #8  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Agreed 100%... you should not be allowed to operate any motor vehicle under the influence of any intoxicating substance. But I think that is already the law (in the US), or am I mistaken?
    Yes, there are laws in every state but trying to enforce them is next to impossible unless erratic driving or some other signs are noticed by the police. Those laws are different from state to state and some states give only fines when others have jail times.

    Please watch video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=THL5ljq0L0Q
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have never met a wealthy productive pot head outside of artists.
    Well, that's the problem with anecdotal evidence.

    Unless you are defining 'pot heads' to be at a similar level of consumption as 'alcoholics' then I have found it to be the complete opposite.
    And most of the cannabis users I have know have worked in technical jobs (software development, electrical engineers, chemical engineers..........but no accountants.)
    (I also knew a pensioner that used to use it if his arthritus woke him up in the night, so that he could get back to sleep.)
    >shrug<

    Generally, if you say to someone who is anti-cannabis* that alcohol should be made illegal, then their hypocrisy becomes quite self-evident.


    *This is not implying you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Unless you are defining 'pot heads' to be at a similar level of consumption as 'alcoholics' then I have found it to be the complete opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    for clarification : when I say pot head, i mean someone who uses it on a daily basis and for purely recreational purposes. I don't know anyone that uses it medicinally. I know some who claim to but they were pot heads before they developed any medical need for it. And I suspect they use the medical condition as justification for continuing to use it excessively.

    I also don't think it should be illegal any more than alcohol is. I don't see it as any worse and I think people should be allowed to make their own choices. but age restrictions on who you can sell it to should be enforced as with alcohol and cigarettes.
    ^
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  12. #11  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    I know one thing about cannabis; we waste more money locking up the people who smoke it than we should.

    The effects of the drug itself have been studied and adelady covered that well. You can also find plenty of published studied out there if you look. Pot isn't special or unique, it's just political. I have no idea why it is so blown out of proportion. Regardless of how dangerous it could be, unless its use is putting another citizen at risk, who cares what people do with it?
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  14. #13  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    This is a response to an off topic debate between myself and RedPanda about the validity of anecdotal evidence. It does not contribute to the OP. I put it in spoilers to help readers who wish to skip over arguments between posters. Perhaps he will show the same courtesy.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have never met a wealthy productive pot head outside of artists.
    Well, that's the problem with anecdotal evidence.

    Unless you are defining 'pot heads' to be at a similar level of consumption as 'alcoholics' then I have found it to be the complete opposite.
    And most of the cannabis users I have know have worked in technical jobs (software development, electrical engineers, chemical engineers..........but no accountants.)
    (I also knew a pensioner that used to use it if his arthritus woke him up in the night, so that he could get back to sleep.)
    >shrug<

    Generally, if you say to someone who is anti-cannabis* that alcohol should be made illegal, then their hypocrisy becomes quite self-evident.


    *This is not implying you.
    And that's the problem with only reading the first line of someone's post before responding.

    I do have a feeling you didn't read my entire post. Wanna try again?

    And thanks Mat for pointing it out. At least I know one person read the whole thing.
    Last edited by seagypsy; April 10th, 2013 at 10:48 AM.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  15. #14  
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    The thing with the politics around cannabis is that it's pointless, counter-productive and, worst of all in some people's minds, extremely costly.

    And we already have a model for how to change this. If cannabis were legal in the same way as tobacco and alcohol, several sensible things follow.
    1. You can control who it is and isn't sold to.
    2. You can regulate for quality and dose control.
    3. It loses its status as a "gateway drug".
    4. It loses its link to criminality and criminals - similar "gateway" effect as for the drugs themselves.

    5. Wonder of wonders - think of the tax revenues!
    6. Then think of the double whammy on balancing government budgets. You gain all that lovely lolly from the sales, you can transfer your law enforcement, court and prison outlays to more serious matters. And all for the costs of a few more staff in bureaucracies that you've already got in customs, excise, testing and inspection.

    (You'll still go after illegal distribution and contamination / poor quality stuff in the same way as all governments now do for alcohol and tobacco. But the offences people are charged with would change. Defrauding the revenue, endangering public safety - for incorrect labelling, contamination and the like, fraud or false advertising if your cannabis product doesn't have the specified ingredients correctly listed, and a good dozen other things that growers, manufacturers and distributors now get away with because the item is illegal in the first place.)
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    Forum Freshman missarane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I know one thing about cannabis; we waste more money locking up the people who smoke it than we should.

    The effects of the drug itself have been studied and adelady covered that well. You can also find plenty of published studied out there if you look. Pot isn't special or unique, it's just political. I have no idea why it is so blown out of proportion. Regardless of how dangerous it could be, unless its use is putting another citizen at risk, who cares what people do with it?

    That`s what I`m asking... What do we know for sure about it? Because the most studies you`re talking about make me wonder if it is this way...


    Then if it will be legal, don`t you think there will be negative aspects aswell?

    I heard a story with a nazi: two girls were convinced to be racist by their nazi grandpa. By the age of 13 they had no friends and constantly fighting with their black classmates. So they were hospitalized in a funhouse and treated with medicinal marijuana. One year later they were pacifist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    ^
    Yes - I saw.
    I was simply clarifying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I do have a feeling you didn't read my entire post. Wanna try again?
    And that's the problem with feelings: They are often wrong.

    I am sorry that you can't accept any counter-arguments and have to resort to ad hominem attacks, but that is your problem not mine.
    My point still stands and your anecdotal evidence is still pretty worthless.
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    So they were hospitalized in a funhouse and treated with medicinal marijuana.
    Not exactly. Their main treatment was separation and isolation from their poisonous relative(s). Without that venom being constantly drip fed to them they had a better chance to be the better people they always had the potential to be.

    Medicinal marijuana professionally prescribed and administered is a good treatment for all kinds of things. For people not yet out of their teens, I'd be willing to accept a view that it's the least damaging psychoactive drug among the fairly limited options. For them to be hospitalised, I presume they'd be showing pretty obvious signs of anxiety, distress, self-harm, violent ideation or depression - all of which would need some drug or other, or more likely a combination. Marijuana might be the best option.

    (Funhouse? I presume this is a bad translation into English seeing as you did say hospitalised.)
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    Then if it will be legal, don`t you think there will be negative aspects aswell?
    The bad things that would happen if pot were legal are the same bad things that happen now. People would abuse it, young kids would use it, people would use it while operating vehicles, etc. It's just like any other state of mind altering substance.

    The difference is that taxpayers would only be paying to lock up people who endangered others and not people who only endangered their own health.
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  21. #20  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    This is a response to an off topic debate between myself and RedPanda about the validity of anecdotal evidence. It does not contribute to the OP. I put it in spoilers to help readers who wish to skip over arguments between posters. Perhaps he will show the same courtesy.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I do have a feeling you didn't read my entire post. Wanna try again?
    And that's the problem with feelings: They are often wrong.

    I am sorry that you can't accept any counter-arguments and have to resort to ad hominem attacks, but that is your problem not mine.
    My point still stands and your anecdotal evidence is still pretty worthless.
    What ad hominems? and what counter arguments? the only counter argument you offered if you call it that was anecdotal. And you said anecdotal evidence is useless. So you already made the point that your own counter argument was useless. I didn't have a problem with it but by your standards I should.

    Are you having a bad day? You are coming off as if you want to start a fight, and for what reason I can't imagine. You don't normally post this way.
    Last edited by seagypsy; April 10th, 2013 at 10:29 AM. Reason: added spoiler tags
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  22. #21  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    I heard a story with a nazi: two girls were convinced to be racist by their nazi grandpa. By the age of 13 they had no friends and constantly fighting with their black classmates. So they were hospitalized in a funhouse and treated with medicinal marijuana. One year later they were pacifist.
    Have you taken any steps to verify if this story is true? Do you have links to it or was it just word of mouth? Considering how many studies are out there and how conflicting the results can be, I do consider anecdotal evidence to be reasonable, however, as Red Panda did point out, the only anecdotal evidence one can really trust is their own personal observations. My personal observations are trustworthy to me, but once I tell them to you, you have no reason to trust or believe them. You don't know me from Adam and have no indications of my integrity. You also have no way of verifying my claims. But as you asked what we KNOW of cannibus, all I can say that I KNOW is what I have personally observed. Anyone else's observations are as trustworthy to me as stories of Santa Claus.


    I will see if I can find any stories to match what you are referring to.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    What ad hominems?
    I have to spell it out?
    *sigh*
    Ok: here they are:
    And that's the problem with only reading the first line of someone's post before responding.

    I do have a feeling you didn't read my entire post. Wanna try again?

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    And you said anecdotal evidence is useless. So you already made the point that your own counter argument was useless.
    My point was that your anecdotal 'evidence' was worthless.
    My evidence of how worthless your anecdotal claims were, is my own anecdotal evidence which is completely opposite to yours.


    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Are you having a bad day? You are coming off as if you want to start a fight, and for what reason I can't imagine. You don't normally post this way.
    Are you having a bad day? You are coming off as if you want to start a fight, and for what reason I can't imagine.
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  24. #23  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    This is a response to an off topic debate between myself and RedPanda about the validity of anecdotal evidence. It does not contribute to the OP. I put it in spoilers to help readers who wish to skip over arguments between posters. Perhaps he will show the same courtesy.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    What ad hominems?
    I have to spell it out?
    *sigh*
    Ok: here they are:
    And that's the problem with only reading the first line of someone's post before responding.

    I do have a feeling you didn't read my entire post. Wanna try again?
    That is not an ad hominem. I stated that I didn't think you had read my entire post. Especially since your post indicated that you were unaware of how I used the term "pot head" in spite of the fact that I clarified that in the post you were responding to. An ad hom would be if I called you stupid in the process, which I didn't. I pointed out a flaw in your argument, as you pointed out what you believed to be a flaw in mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    And you said anecdotal evidence is useless. So you already made the point that your own counter argument was useless.
    My point was that your anecdotal 'evidence' was worthless.
    My evidence of how worthless your anecdotal claims were, is my own anecdotal evidence which is completely opposite to yours.
    So you debunked a useless argument with an equally useless argument... all righty then. Nothing to see here.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Are you having a bad day? You are coming off as if you want to start a fight, and for what reason I can't imagine. You don't normally post this way.
    Are you having a bad day? You are coming off as if you want to start a fight, and for what reason I can't imagine.
    Red, what's your point? You don't like anecdotal evidence? Fine, disregard it. I don't have any issues with anecdotal evidence being disregarded. But I made no scientific claims. The OP asked what we KNOW and all I KNOW of cannibus is from my own personal observations having grown up in a poor rural environment where a majority of the people were pot heads, by the definition I gave earlier. There are countless studies out there claiming to indicate various, often contradictory, trends and conclusions. I have heard countless anecdotes and rumors but I have no way of personally KNOWING any of what I have heard or read is credible or if any of it is, which is and which isn't. I answered the OP. What have you contributed other than being argumentative for no apparent reason?
    Last edited by seagypsy; April 10th, 2013 at 10:29 AM. Reason: added spoiler tags
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    Everywhere I look I see plenty of people raising up cannabis, plenty of "studies" that show how it can cure cancer and how it is not so damaging to our body, and it gives plenty of benefits.

    Oh well here`s what I know about it from anti drug campain I was at:
    Smoking it may cause: paranoia, dizziness, nausea, halucinations [if big dose], and weird behaviour changes. [ that`s all I can remember atm]
    Smoking it for a long term may cause: brain damage, loss of interest in career and friend issues, depression, loss of weight + other medical issues.

    So which ones to believe? What do you guys know about it?
    That is true. I've seen it in friends and acquaintances. The medical use is BS also. None of this will stop folks from using it though, and the cost to prohibit the use is much too high. That is never mentioned because it supports it's own economy. So.... I guess it's keep on keeping on, and pass the butt this way.
    Last edited by sampson; April 10th, 2013 at 09:04 AM.
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    The medical use is BS also.
    There are a couple of quite well supported medical uses. The best known one being controlling the nausea caused by chemotherapy.

    There are a couple of other "niche" uses in controlling the spasms of cerebral palsy and a couple of other neurological conditions. And there's all the 'self-medication' uses for pain relief and for moderating depression and anxiety. Though these may turn out to be a bit like the similar, former use of smoking tobacco for the same purpose. The cure turns out to be worse than the complaint. (Smoking used to be prescribed by doctors 60+ years ago for people with depression or anxiety.)

    The biggest problem with research in this area, and I didn't mention it in my more general list, is that for as long as it's prohibited it's impossible to get funding. Even if someone came up with the funds, getting a research proposal past an ethics committee in practically any country you can think of would be impossible.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    That is not an ad hominem.
    You 'attacked' the poster and not the post.
    That is an ad hom. Look it up.

    Especially since your post indicated that you were unaware of how I used the term "pot head" in spite of the fact that I clarified that in the post you were responding to.
    I am not responsible for the conclusions you jump to.

    An ad hom would be if I called you stupid in the process, which I didn't.
    No. An ad hom is not necessarily an insult. Look it up.

    I pointed out a flaw in your argument, as you pointed out what you believed to be a flaw in mine.
    No, I pointed out a flaw in your argument and you said "And that's the problem with only reading the first line of someone's post before responding."
    You started the bad attitude.
    I simply responded in kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Red, what's your point? You don't like anecdotal evidence? Fine, disregard it. I don't have any issues with anecdotal evidence being disregarded.
    But you do get quite annoyed when it is called worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    all I KNOW of cannibus is from my own personal observations having grown up in a poor rural environment where a majority of the people were pot heads, by the definition I gave earlier.
    And I pointed out that your anecdotal evidence is worthless.


    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have heard countless anecdotes and rumors but I have no way of personally KNOWING any of what I have heard or read is credible or if any of it is, which is and which isn't.
    Then you should stop getting upset when someone points out that it is worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    What have you contributed other than being argumentative for no apparent reason?
    Did you only read the first line of my post...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The medical use is BS also.
    There are a couple of quite well supported medical uses. The best known one being controlling the nausea caused by chemotherapy.

    There are a couple of other "niche" uses in controlling the spasms of cerebral palsy and a couple of other neurological conditions. And there's all the 'self-medication' uses for pain relief and for moderating depression and anxiety. Though these may turn out to be a bit like the similar, former use of smoking tobacco for the same purpose. The cure turns out to be worse than the complaint. (Smoking used to be prescribed by doctors 60+ years ago for people with depression or anxiety.)

    The biggest problem with research in this area, and I didn't mention it in my more general list, is that for as long as it's prohibited it's impossible to get funding. Even if someone came up with the funds, getting a research proposal past an ethics committee in practically any country you can think of would be impossible.
    There seems to be two groups urging the legalization for medical purposes, those that would like it legit, so they may use it freely and cheaper, and those that would benefit financially. AKAIK for every medical use, there are better drugs available with less side effects.
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    I do not think making pot legal is a smart thing to do. We already see what alcohol has done to society and isn't one drug, alcohol, enough on the market? We will be putting fuel on the fire if we introduce yet another drug into society that for many who use it, will abuse it. Look at alcohol abuse and the families it has already destroyed and lives it has taken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I do not think making pot legal is a smart thing to do. We already see what alcohol has done to society and isn't one drug, alcohol, enough on the market? We will be putting fuel on the fire if we introduce yet another drug into society that for many who use it, will abuse it. Look at alcohol abuse and the families it has already destroyed and lives it has taken.
    Let's make alcohol illegal, yes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I do not think making pot legal is a smart thing to do. We already see what alcohol has done to society and isn't one drug, alcohol, enough on the market? We will be putting fuel on the fire if we introduce yet another drug into society that for many who use it, will abuse it. Look at alcohol abuse and the families it has already destroyed and lives it has taken.
    Let's make alcohol illegal, yes?

    That would be awesome, considering the number of murders and life ruined by alcohol we have each year. But then, ofcourse, political issues.
    I`d go for making alcohol illegal and pot legal. Because pot, even tho it has negative effects, does not make you as violent as alcohol does.
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    Well, I wish they could but they never will. Laws were enacted , Constitutionally , about the repeal of prohibition so a new Amendment would have to be voted upon and reintroduced. I do not think that the alcohol lobby, like the gun lobby would like that to happen so I do not think that prohibiting alcohol will ever happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    That would be awesome, considering the number of murders and life ruined by alcohol we have each year. But then, ofcourse, political issues.
    I`d go for making alcohol illegal and pot legal. Because pot, even tho it has negative effects, does not make you as violent as alcohol does.
    Although I agree with your sentiments, I think there is another alternative:
    Legalise them both and sort out the problems that lead people to substance abuse.

    It is a 'slow' option, but I think it will pay off in the long term.
    Last edited by RedPanda; April 10th, 2013 at 10:06 AM.
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    This is a response to an off topic debate between myself and RedPanda about the validity of anecdotal evidence. It does not contribute to the OP. I put it in spoilers to help readers who wish to skip over arguments between posters. Perhaps he will show the same courtesy.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    That is not an ad hominem.
    You 'attacked' the poster and not the post.
    That is an ad hom. Look it up.
    Pointing out an error is an attack now? If that's the case then you attacked me first by pointing out the "worthlessness" of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Especially since your post indicated that you were unaware of how I used the term "pot head" in spite of the fact that I clarified that in the post you were responding to.
    I am not responsible for the conclusions you jump to.
    Reasoning that you didn't read my entire post was giving you the benefit of the doubt. The other option was that you read it and didn't comprehend it. Are you suggesting that you didn't understand my post?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    An ad hom would be if I called you stupid in the process, which I didn't.
    No. An ad hom is not necessarily an insult. Look it up.
    I already knew that, but did look it up again just to be sure. And pointing out a flaw in one's argument is not an ad hom. What I did, was pointed out a fallacy in your logic. If you were fully aware that I defined a pot head as I did, why did state that your observations (anecdotal evidence) indicated the opposite was true. Since I do define pot heads to be those who use it excessively, your anecdotal evidence does not apply to my use of the term pot heads, and is therefore irrelevant. Which doesn't matter anyway, because as you said, anecdotal evidence, even yours, is worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    I pointed out a flaw in your argument, as you pointed out what you believed to be a flaw in mine.
    No, I pointed out a flaw in your argument and you said "And that's the problem with only reading the first line of someone's post before responding."
    You started the bad attitude.
    I simply responded in kind.
    bad attitude? So when someone disagrees with you, its a bad attitude?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Red, what's your point? You don't like anecdotal evidence? Fine, disregard it. I don't have any issues with anecdotal evidence being disregarded.
    But you do get quite annoyed when it is called worthless.
    Huh? The only thing annoying me is your unwillingness to acknowledge a mistake and move on. I don't have a problem with anecdotal evidence being called worthless. I do have an issue with intellectual dishonesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    all I KNOW of cannibus is from my own personal observations having grown up in a poor rural environment where a majority of the people were pot heads, by the definition I gave earlier.
    And I pointed out that your anecdotal evidence is worthless.
    Well, why don't you provide some evidence that is not anecdotal? Rather than wasting time debunking worthless evidence with equally worthless evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have heard countless anecdotes and rumors but I have no way of personally KNOWING any of what I have heard or read is credible or if any of it is, which is and which isn't.
    Then you should stop getting upset when someone points out that it is worthless.
    Who said I was upset?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    What have you contributed other than being argumentative for no apparent reason?
    Did you only read the first line of my post...?
    No, I read the entire thing, which was nothing more than complaining that my evidence was anecdotal and therefore worthless, your own worthless anecdotal evidence and your assumption (which is worthless) about those who are anti-cannibus.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda
    Well, that's the problem with anecdotal evidence.
    Similar to how I started my reply to this, which was taken as displaying a bad attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda
    Unless you are defining 'pot heads' to be at a similar level of consumption as 'alcoholics' then I have found it to be the complete opposite.
    Ignores that I did define 'pot heads' in the fashion you described.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda
    And most of the cannabis users I have know have worked in technical jobs (software development, electrical engineers, chemical engineers..........but no accountants.)
    (I also knew a pensioner that used to use it if his arthritus woke him up in the night, so that he could get back to sleep.)
    >shrug<
    Your own worthless anecdotal evidence to contradict mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda
    Generally, if you say to someone who is anti-cannabis* that alcohol should be made illegal, then their hypocrisy becomes quite self-evident.
    An assumption based on what?


    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda
    *This is not implying you.
    I took this at face value.

    Did I miss anything?
    Last edited by seagypsy; April 10th, 2013 at 10:30 AM. Reason: added spoiler tags
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    AKAIK for every medical use, there are better drugs available with less side effects.
    I'm pretty sure if that were true, the oncology clinics would get their hands on it.

    The fact that people are often surprised that medical specialists gently get around to suggesting, ever so subtly and politely, that cannabis would be a good idea because they can offer nothing adequate to control the patient's nausea would suggest otherwise. Most specialists have a bias towards well researched and ethically produced drugs. The fact that they recommend, however indirectly, that patients would do better with something as pedestrian and "folk medicine" as cannabis is pretty significant.

    And I'm absolutely certain that there's very little in the pharmacopoeia to help cerebral palsy sufferers control their spasms without significant side effects, mainly sedation. No point in reducing spasms if you spend your life in bed asleep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    bad attitude? So when someone disagrees with you, its a bad attitude?
    According to you, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Did I miss anything?
    Yes.
    Did you only read the first line?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sampson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The medical use is BS also.
    There are a couple of quite well supported medical uses. The best known one being controlling the nausea caused by chemotherapy.

    There are a couple of other "niche" uses in controlling the spasms of cerebral palsy and a couple of other neurological conditions. And there's all the 'self-medication' uses for pain relief and for moderating depression and anxiety. Though these may turn out to be a bit like the similar, former use of smoking tobacco for the same purpose. The cure turns out to be worse than the complaint. (Smoking used to be prescribed by doctors 60+ years ago for people with depression or anxiety.)

    The biggest problem with research in this area, and I didn't mention it in my more general list, is that for as long as it's prohibited it's impossible to get funding. Even if someone came up with the funds, getting a research proposal past an ethics committee in practically any country you can think of would be impossible.
    There seems to be two groups urging the legalization for medical purposes, those that would like it legit, so they may use it freely and cheaper, and those that would benefit financially. AKAIK for every medical use, there are better drugs available with less side effects.
    Then you must be unaware of those who are in support of legalizing it but have no desire to use it personally. I am not a smoker of cigarettes or marijuana but I don't believe either should be illegal. I rarely drink alcohol and know plenty of alcoholics and drunks, but I don't think alcohol should be made illegal either. The government cannot put itself in place of being nanny to everyone. Allow people to make their own decisions. Look at it this way, if a stupid person uses alcohol or marijuana in an irresponsible way, they are more likely to be killed. Why must we constantly get in the way of evolution?
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    This is a response to an off topic debate between myself and RedPanda about the validity of anecdotal evidence. It does not contribute to the OP. I put it in spoilers to help readers who wish to skip over arguments between posters. Perhaps he will show the same courtesy.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    bad attitude? So when someone disagrees with you, its a bad attitude?
    According to you, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Did I miss anything?
    Yes.
    Did you only read the first line?
    So what did I miss?
    Last edited by seagypsy; April 10th, 2013 at 10:30 AM. Reason: added spoiler tags
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Did I miss anything?
    Yes.
    Did you only read the first line?
    So what did I miss?
    Everything after the first line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I do not think making pot legal is a smart thing to do. We already see what alcohol has done to society and isn't one drug, alcohol, enough on the market? We will be putting fuel on the fire if we introduce yet another drug into society that for many who use it, will abuse it. Look at alcohol abuse and the families it has already destroyed and lives it has taken.
    Let's make alcohol illegal, yes?

    That would be awesome, considering the number of murders and life ruined by alcohol we have each year. But then, of course, political issues.
    I`d go for making alcohol illegal and pot legal. Because pot, even tho it has negative effects, does not make you as violent as alcohol does.
    Are you aware of the gang violence that took place during the time of prohibition? People were murdered over alcohol those days. Not because the killer was drunk, but because someone was selling in their territory or something like that. They were killed over the money involved in trafficking an illegal substance, the same as people killing each other over drugs today. I'm not saying making it legal will end gang violence. I imagine that will be around so long as there is poverty. But anything short of communism will not alleviate that. I agree with Ben Franklin who said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Though I guess this can be seen the same from either viewpoint.

    I grew up in a dry county but we still had plenty of drunks around and plenty of drunk drivers.Plenty of drunken assaults.
    But during prohibition, alcohol was still available to those who wanted it. and so there were still plenty of drunks to deal with. But added to that was the gang violence associated with the illegal trafficking of it. So making it legal, eliminated the gang violence, allowed for taxation on the sale of it, the regulation of who could get it and easier access to treatment for addiction to it. It also made it ethical to do scientific studies on the effects of alcohol on the human body. Including whether or not a glass of wine once a day can reduce the risk of heart disease.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    This is a response to an off topic debate between myself and RedPanda about the validity of anecdotal evidence. It does not contribute to the OP. I put it in spoilers to help readers who wish to skip over arguments between posters. Perhaps he will show the same courtesy.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Did I miss anything?
    Yes.
    Did you only read the first line?
    So what did I miss?
    Everything after the first line.
    I addressed everything after the first line. care to elaborate?

    Or should I just report you for intellectual dishonesty. Because quite frankly I am becoming bored with you. You haven't presented any counter argument yet that shouldn't be considered worthless by your own standards. And you haven't answered any challenges to the charges you've made against me with any evidence at all.

    Better yet let's just drop it at this point. You have failed to prove any point whatsoever and this is doing nothing but creating posts for people to have to skip over in order to stay on topic. I'm putting you on ignore from this point on. Which is a shame because I have always liked your posts up to this point.


    There will be no further responses to RedPanda from me since he has demonstrated a lack will to address challenges to charges he has made against me. I have put him on ignore.
    Last edited by seagypsy; April 10th, 2013 at 10:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    And that's the problem with only reading the first line of someone's post before responding.

    I do have a feeling you didn't read my entire post. Wanna try again?

    And thanks Mat for pointing it out. At least I know one person read the whole thing.
    And just to be clear: that quote is you displaying a bad attitude to my post.

    Can you quote a similarly bad attitude from me prior to this?
    No. No you can't.

    You reaped what you sowed.
    Get over it.

    Or should I just report you for intellectual dishonesty.
    Go for it.

    I'm putting you on ignore from this point on. Which is a shame because I have always liked your posts up to this point.
    Yup.
    You go hide.
    Last edited by RedPanda; April 10th, 2013 at 10:29 AM.
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    There seems to be two groups urging the legalization for medical purposes, those that would like it legit, so they may use it freely and cheaper, and those that would benefit financially. AKAIK for every medical use, there are better drugs available with less side effects.[/QUOTE]

    Then you must be unaware of those who are in support of legalizing it but have no desire to use it personally. I am not a smoker of cigarettes or marijuana but I don't believe either should be illegal. I rarely drink alcohol and know plenty of alcoholics and drunks, but I don't think alcohol should be made illegal either. The government cannot put itself in place of being nanny to everyone. Allow people to make their own decisions. Look at it this way, if a stupid person uses alcohol or marijuana in an irresponsible way, they are more likely to be killed. Why must we constantly get in the way of evolution? seagypsy[/QUOTE]I have no desire to block evolution ......and would not have the power if I did....so.... I am in the same boat as you are, with no desire to use it...and no concerns about the legalization, just stating my knowledge on the subject, which is not 'expert'. I was 'advised' to use MJ for arthritis, tried it and found a simple Advil tablet cheaper and far better. I did find a benefit when in my youth to enhance sex. That is the only benefit IMO, but lots of side effects.
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    It seems knowledge on cannibus is going to be limited for a while. The people capable and willing to do unbiased research are blocked by ethics committees as Adelady pointed out, and those who can get the money to do any kind of research are pressured to produce the results the financiers want. So it is hard to trust the outcomes of those studies, which are nothing more than self reporting anecdotes which may or may not be honest and then they are interpreted by those who may or may not have a bias. How can we be sure?

    Hard data comes from chemical testing which is expensive. And that throws us back into that loop of getting funds from an unbiased source and then passing the ethical committees.
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I know one thing about cannabis; we waste more money locking up the people who smoke it than we should.

    The effects of the drug itself have been studied and adelady covered that well. You can also find plenty of published studied out there if you look. Pot isn't special or unique, it's just political. I have no idea why it is so blown out of proportion. Regardless of how dangerous it could be, unless its use is putting another citizen at risk, who cares what people do with it?


    That`s what I`m asking... What do we know for sure about it? Because the most studies you`re talking about make me wonder if it is this way...


    Then if it will be legal, don`t you think there will be negative aspects aswell?

    I heard a story with a nazi: two girls were convinced to be racist by their nazi grandpa. By the age of 13 they had no friends and constantly fighting with their black classmates. So they were hospitalized in a funhouse and treated with medicinal marijuana. One year later they were pacifist.
    Is this the story you are referring to?
    Nazi Twins Lamb And Lynx Gaede Of 'Prussian Blue' Reject White Supremist Roots, Thanks To Marijuana
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    If 'treating' people with pot made them go from raving Nazi to pacifist like that... well...

    Marijuana is a Hell of a drug!

    A little tiny bit of skeptical thinking makes that story very questionable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Let's make alcohol illegal, yes?
    That would be awesome, considering the number of murders and life ruined by alcohol we have each year. But then, ofcourse, political issues.
    I`d go for making alcohol illegal and pot legal. Because pot, even tho it has negative effects, does not make you as violent as alcohol does.
    Rolling on the floor laughing...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    If 'treating' people with pot made them go from raving Nazi to pacifist like that... well...

    Marijuana is a Hell of a drug!

    A little tiny bit of skeptical thinking makes that story very questionable.

    Oh well, I saw it on the news a while ago so I cannot really back it up. I said it as an idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Let's make alcohol illegal, yes?
    That would be awesome, considering the number of murders and life ruined by alcohol we have each year. But then, ofcourse, political issues.
    I`d go for making alcohol illegal and pot legal. Because pot, even tho it has negative effects, does not make you as violent as alcohol does.
    Rolling on the floor laughing...
    explain why, maybe i`d laugh w u
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    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    explain why, maybe i`d laugh w u
    The absolute irony in that you revealed a personal bias in your answer. ANY drug can be dangerous. There is no safe drug.
    Acetaminophen- Tylenol- can kill you. Rather unpleasantly, I might add and with little effort on overdosing.
    Usually, however, most folks on a bad overdose of Tylenol will go to the hospital and sheepishly admit renal failure.

    "Making alcohol illegal but pot legal" reveals your bias that pot is safe, healthy, yadda yadda. You think one is a Bad drug and the other is a Good drug.

    No, if it's about responsibility, any drug shouldn't be illegal. Alcohol tolerance and reactions vary greatly from person to person. Same with weed.
    Some people get violent after smoking pot. Others want to throw up and feel sick for a couple days after tokin' herb.
    Some people get violent when they drink whiskey but get mellow and easy going after drinking tequila.

    Combine this with the story you cannot back up (Kronik turns evil Nazis into pacifist sweeties) and you are clearly arguing from a preference and a belief on your part.

    My people, the Lakota- do not do so well with booze.
    They can handle their peyote much better.
    Should one be legal and one not be? What would be the point? Abusers will abuse the drug. Without a direct influence from rehab, they WILL do it. And people use the craziest drugs...

    Licking frogs
    Hair spray
    Huffing modeling glue
    Whippets
    Cans of air- I kid you not- Canned AIR. They inhale compressed air. Gets 'em high.

    My own personal preference is that a person should not use a drug unless it is necessary for medical reasons. Any drug can have adverse effects and self prescribing any drug, from heavy caffeine to opiates, is just asking for trouble.
    It isn't limited by Good Drugs vs. Evil Drugs.
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by missarane View Post
    explain why, maybe i`d laugh w u
    The absolute irony in that you revealed a personal bias in your answer. ANY drug can be dangerous. There is no safe drug.
    Acetaminophen- Tylenol- can kill you. Rather unpleasantly, I might add and with little effort on overdosing.
    Usually, however, most folks on a bad overdose of Tylenol will go to the hospital and sheepishly admit renal failure.

    "Making alcohol illegal but pot legal" reveals your bias that pot is safe, healthy, yadda yadda. You think one is a Bad drug and the other is a Good drug.

    No, if it's about responsibility, any drug shouldn't be illegal. Alcohol tolerance and reactions vary greatly from person to person. Same with weed.
    Some people get violent after smoking pot. Others want to throw up and feel sick for a couple days after tokin' herb.
    Some people get violent when they drink whiskey but get mellow and easy going after drinking tequila.

    Combine this with the story you cannot back up (Kronik turns evil Nazis into pacifist sweeties) and you are clearly arguing from a preference and a belief on your part.

    My people, the Lakota- do not do so well with booze.
    They can handle their peyote much better.
    Should one be legal and one not be? What would be the point? Abusers will abuse the drug. Without a direct influence from rehab, they WILL do it. And people use the craziest drugs...

    Licking frogs
    Hair spray
    Huffing modeling glue
    Whippets
    Cans of air- I kid you not- Canned AIR. They inhale compressed air. Gets 'em high.

    My own personal preference is that a person should not use a drug unless it is necessary for medical reasons. Any drug can have adverse effects and self prescribing any drug, from heavy caffeine to opiates, is just asking for trouble.
    It isn't limited by Good Drugs vs. Evil Drugs.
    Good post Neverfly
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  52. #51  
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    RedPanda and Seagype, I think you are both overreacting. Asking one to read you post again is not a personal attack, or an ad Hominum, for example, it's a reasonable request after a misunderstanding.

    --

    As for the thread. The science is pretty well established and not that controversial.
    Marijuana is only mildly addictive, only mildly inhibits motor skills and associated with almost no increase in driving accidents, nor particularly dangerous at relatively low recreational use levels, and has legitimate medical uses. At chronic high use levels it is linked to long term health problems. The categorization of regulatory control and criminalization is WAY out of proportion to credible documented risk to individuals or society--a government mishandling that goes all the way back to aggressive attempts to kill a vibrant hemp industry at the dawn of artificial(aka plastic) fibers textile industry (1930s and 40s).
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  53. #52  
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    I'd like to say we should legalise all drugs but there is I think a big issue with cocaine and it's relatives. The herion user can go for years holding down a decent job and being a normal member of society so long as he or she is able to obtain a supply of known purity material. I know cannabis users in highly productive and professional positions in a range of walks of life, OK they may not be permanently stoned but they sure like to light up a number at the end of a hard day, in exactly the way that a lot of folks enjoy a glass of decent scotch or a few glasses of wine. MDMA is incredibly widely used and again, often by middle aged, middle class professionals out to enjoy a dance on a saturday evening, the hallucinogens are almost anti addictive, the more you take the less they affect you. But cocaine, I would place with alcohol. Its very very mentally addictive and seriously damages health. So in an ideal world I would keep cocaine illegal and at the very least decriminalise everything else. Then I'd spend the huge savings from policing these ridiculous laws on healthcare and education, and hey, maybe even research into new and less harmful recreationals.
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  54. #53  
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    I guess that those here do not understand that the amount of THC in certain pot plants is far greater than others which makes the user much "higher" than "regular" pot will give them. So whenever those testing pot never let us know what the THC levels are at, then how can we determine exactly which kinds of pot are being used in theses studies? That said then most studies could be using the lower end of the THC scales not the upper end which is far greater to knock the crap out of people and stone them for hours on end!

    There are some pot plants that are known for there very "high" stoning abilities which are sold to people everywhere so just how will people tell the differences between the pot that is "regular" and that which is "superweed"?

    So if we extrapolate this idea then what's next , heroin, cocaine? I mean if you want to raise taxes then allow for every drug to be sold not just the one that you THINK won't harm society.
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  55. #54  
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    It seems that making anything illegal creates a high profit niche for those willing to risk the penalties for gain.
    High risk = high profit margins, and illegality = the building of criminal enterprises.

    We waste billions of dollars creating drug cartels, then billions more trying to control those organizations, and billions more trying to eradicate the drugs, and billions more incarcerating those whose "crime" had no victim.
    Which, to these old eyes, seems completely irrational, unless these stated outcomes were the goal all along.

    To paraphrase an old saw; a billion here and a billion there, and there and there, and pretty soon, we're talking about some serious money.
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    There is an agenda for the authoritative types to claim that pot is bad.
    There is an agenda for the freedom types that say pot is safe.

    I think pot is bad and we should all have the freedom. You should have the right to do, just be smarter than to do it.
    I know others don't agree and think that it's not so bad- and for that--- Freedom.
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  57. #56  
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    It comes right before "canned" in the dictionary.
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  58. #57  
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    The statement that "drugs are bad" is correct.

    Alcohol is bad. Cannabis is bad. Heroin is bad. Nicotine is bad. etc. etc.

    However, we cannot stop people doing bad things. Personally, I am a lover of red wine, and I over-do it on frequent occasions. If I were to decry the guy that smokes pot, I would be a hypocrite.

    My view is simple. If something cannot be prevented (alcohol, cannabis, nicotine, abortion, prostitution etc), then it should be legal and regulated. My lovely red wine is legal and regulated. That does not stop it being harmful, but permits some reduction of the harm it does. Same with cannabis. Smoking cannabis is harmful to human health (probably less so than red wine), but we cannot stop people doing it, so we should legalise and regulate it.

    That tactic stops drug pushers making megabucks, and permits taxes to be earned, and permits some control and harm reduction.
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  59. #58  
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    To answer the OP, these are my experiences and my opinions . . . . (YMMD)

    I've been smoking marijuana for about 45 years now. Not a lot. I would guess on average, once every two weeks. Sort of like the same interval for my drinking. I like a cold beer after working or playing hard and I'll smoke a joint on a Friday or Saturday night with my wife while we watch TV. Alcohol animates me (most times in a good way) while marijuana generally tends to sedate me. Both make me hungry. (There is one other good effect of marijuana I won't go into here.) I've always worked and was able to retire comfortably last year from one of the largest tech firms in the world, after a well paying career, so neither alcohol or marijuana was detrimental. I don't believe it is any kind of gateway drug but I think that those with the propensity to abuse drugs will certainly go on to other drugs after starting with booze or dope.

    Bottom line, in my opinion, marijuana, if anything, is a more benign drug than alcohol.

    And before one of those "I get high on life. I don't need drugs" folks chimes in here, I also get high on life and I don't "need" the drugs. Everything in moderation.
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  60. #59  
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    pffffffffffffffft
    pff
    pffffffffffft
    pfffffffffffffffft
    hack-hack cough
    pfffffffffffft
    pffff
    pfff
    pfffffft
    wow man
    wut wuz the question?
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  61. #60  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    pffffffffffffffft
    pff
    pffffffffffft
    pfffffffffffffffft
    hack-hack cough
    pfffffffffffft
    pffff
    pfff
    pfffffft
    wow man
    wut wuz the question?
    You'll make bad poetry out of just about anything. You'd make a Vogon proud and are probably best friends with Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings of Sussex.
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  62. #61  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    If something cannot be prevented then it should be legal and regulated.
    Murder, rape, muggings and on and on...you want them included as well? All of those things cannot be prevented but with your way of thinking we should just stop trying to protect people any longer.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
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  63. #62  
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    jeeezzzz pumaman
    if thine eye offend thee
    pluck it out
    or just put me on ignore
    I communicate to the best of my ability and if that just ain't good 'nuff fer you
    pfffffffffffffffft
    it don't really matter
    communication is like commerce
    it requires a willing buyer and a willing seller

    as always, the choice, ultimately, is yours

    Paul Neil Milne Johnstone of Redbridge, Essex, was the writer, according to Adams, of the worst poetry in the universe.
    jeeeezzzzzzzzz dadio, thanx fer the link and the laugh
    ................
    now, what in hell were we supposed to be talking about?
    datura anyone?

    ps/edit/epimetheus
    my son's wife calls me venedero(sp?) because i shoot deer, and we eat that as our primary red meat.

    pumaman---venedaro?
    is this a cosmic tumbler falling into place?
    Last edited by sculptor; May 7th, 2013 at 10:51 PM.
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  64. #63  
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    I communicate to the best of my ability
    Sorry. I didn't know. My bad.
    Last edited by PumaMan; May 7th, 2013 at 10:14 PM.
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  65. #64  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    If something cannot be prevented then it should be legal and regulated.
    Murder, rape, muggings and on and on...you want them included as well? All of those things cannot be prevented but with your way of thinking we should just stop trying to protect people any longer.
    You may be taking my point too rigidly. Those things cannot be stopped 100%, but they can be and have been very substantially reduced by strict laws and vigorous policing. I meant those things that history has shown cannot be reduced to any great extent by such laws and policing.
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    There are good laws that can be shown to be effective and there are bad laws that can easily be demonstrated to be ineffective.

    And cannabis does not need to be smoked, indeed it is as dangerous as tobacco when consumed in this way. Nothing wrong with eating it.
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