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Thread: Vaccinations and Autism

  1. #1 Vaccinations and Autism 
    Forum Masters Degree mat5592's Avatar
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    Yet another study showing no association between vaccines and autism. This one specifically addresses the "too many vaccines at once" crap that's spewed by the ignorant.

    Risk of autism is not increased by 'too many vaccines too soon,' study shows

    http://www.jpeds.com/webfiles/images...SDeStefano.pdf

    How long until we don't have to publish studies like these? I'd imagine the money used would be put to better use by trying to find the real causes for autism.


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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    You might have hoped it would all go away when the BMJ described Wakefield's work as "an elaborate fraud". But presumably some people think that is all part of a "cover up". Sigh.


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    it's unfortunate there are people that would believe one person's bogus claims over a multitude of studies stating otherwise. this topic reminds me of a video actually:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

    don't know who those guys are but it's funny
    Last edited by mat5592; March 29th, 2013 at 03:10 PM.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    This video does not exist.
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  6. #5  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Ah, the Tyranny of Videos ...

    300px-MagrittePipe.jpg
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  7. #6  
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    Saw this on the news. My facebook lit up with people who were "not convinced". Good lord....
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    This video does not exist.
    oh, darn, thanks. fixed i think.
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  9. #8  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    this topic reminds me of a video actually
    Brilliant. But ...

    don't know who those guys are
    What!? I mean ... what!?
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Saw this on the news. My facebook lit up with people who were "not convinced". Good lord....
    huh, nobody on mine has even mentioned it. then again, nobody on my facebook ever talks about anything interesting...maybe i need new friends. sorry to hear they still aren't convinced, maybe you can give them a nice talk!
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    this topic reminds me of a video actually
    Brilliant. But ...

    don't know who those guys are
    What!? I mean ... what!?
    sorry, i guess i don't get out enough, i will start looking them up now
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  12. #11  
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    Drat, I have no excuses for my stupidity anymore.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Saw this on the news. My facebook lit up with people who were "not convinced". Good lord....
    huh, nobody on mine has even mentioned it. then again, nobody on my facebook ever talks about anything interesting...maybe i need new friends. sorry to hear they still aren't convinced, maybe you can give them a nice talk!
    Whenever GMA reports on something, all the people on my FB who are experts on everything have to have a say.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    this topic reminds me of a video actually
    Brilliant. But ...

    don't know who those guys are
    What!? I mean ... what!?
    i ended up watching probably an hour and a half worth of videos from them. pretty funny (especially when they make stupid people look, well, stupid), and they make good points.
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  15. #14  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Saw this on the news. My facebook lit up with people who were "not convinced". Good lord....
    huh, nobody on mine has even mentioned it. then again, nobody on my facebook ever talks about anything interesting...maybe i need new friends. sorry to hear they still aren't convinced, maybe you can give them a nice talk!
    Whenever GMA reports on something, all the people on my FB who are experts on everything have to have a say.
    the un-friend button is always an option. :P
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Saw this on the news. My facebook lit up with people who were "not convinced". Good lord....
    huh, nobody on mine has even mentioned it. then again, nobody on my facebook ever talks about anything interesting...maybe i need new friends. sorry to hear they still aren't convinced, maybe you can give them a nice talk!
    Whenever GMA reports on something, all the people on my FB who are experts on everything have to have a say.
    the un-friend button is always an option. :P
    this would work. there's also the option to hide a friend's post from your news feed, which can save you from unnecessary drama.
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  17. #16  
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    actually just had a friend post that he would never get another vaccination nor would he allow his future kid(s) to get them because he read something about increased incidence of narcolepsy from the h1n1 vaccine. yeah, really good reason to put your children and others at risk
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  18. #17  
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    Just saw on the Skeptic Forum a news item to the effect that an Italian doctor is claiming vaccinations cause homosexuality. A prick is used to distort the way a prick is used.
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    I'm afraid when it comes to vaccinations I turn into a bossy boots killjoy.

    It is beyond disgraceful that babies now die from pertussis when a mere 30 years ago in South Australia, experienced doctors had never seen babies with these ghastly symptoms. It was only the very oldest nurses who'd seen cases when they were first trained and they had to give the diagnosis for the early cases of the new outbreaks - which turned out to be the first of far too many.

    I think that maternity hospitals should have masks, alcohol gel and a big notice at the entrance telling everyone not to enter, go. home. if they or their children are not up to date with pertussis vaccinations. Everyone includes doting grandmas, devoted siblings, BFFs and all delivery drivers carrying flowers and gifts.
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    There is a big outbreak of measles in Wales (the Old North one) at the moment. As one doctor said, it is only a matter of time before a child ends up blind, deaf or possibly dead. This is entirely due to idiotic parents.

    Edit: actually, I don't really blame the parents. To some extent they are "following the herd." I really blame the ignorant and misguided people who promote such anti-science. It would be nice if they could be prosecuted for assault or manslaughter.
    Last edited by Strange; April 5th, 2013 at 05:37 AM. Reason: p.s.
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    Edit: actually, I don't really blame the parents.
    Bossy boots killjoy reporting for duty, suh!

    I do. If you're concerned enough about your child's health to take action contrary to medical, nursing and government recommendations, you'd damn well better be thorough about your research.

    When the course of action you choose also endangers the rest of the population, especially newborn infants and junior primary students and everyone of any age who's immuno-compromised, you're wrong and you should be publicly identified as being a danger to others and therefore barred from entry in some situations - hospitals, doctors' waiting rooms, daycare centres, homes with infants too young to be vaccinated, ....... and all the others.
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  22. #21  
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    Some quotes from parents in Wales:
    "Years ago we were reading what was in the media, parents saying 'don't have it done', basically."

    But while concerns about the MMR vaccination were later discredited, the Thomas children never had their jabs.

    "We never thought it would happen to the kids, and if I could turn back time, I would turn the clocks back," said the children's father.

    "To see them go through this, it was unbelievable."

    Mr Thomas urged others to "act now" and get their children vaccinated.

    "Don't wait, get it done as soon as you can. It's a serious, dangerous virus.
    I feel sorry for them. Maybe we should put the journalists up against the wall as well.

    But the good news is:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Brendan Mason, an epidemiologist
    For new mums, with children needing the jab at one year old, the vaccination rate is higher than it's ever been at around 95%.
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    Well, that's better than here, where about 10% reject them. My article also stated that about a third of people had concerns about the outcomes of the immunizations.. Glad most of them didn't take their unsupported beliefs to the next level.
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    It seems to me that witholding a lifesaving preventive medical proceedure is child abuse and should be prosecuted as such. Possibly only if the child gets the disease. Parents would have to sign a declaration that they understood that if their child contracted the disease that the vaccination would have protected against, they would be tried for child abuse and if the child died they would be charged with manslaughter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sealeaf View Post
    It seems to me that witholding a lifesaving preventive medical proceedure is child abuse and should be prosecuted as such. Possibly only if the child gets the disease. Parents would have to sign a declaration that they understood that if their child contracted the disease that the vaccination would have protected against, they would be tried for child abuse and if the child died they would be charged with manslaughter.
    Education is key, not primitive punishments.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sealeaf View Post
    It seems to me that witholding a lifesaving preventive medical proceedure is child abuse and should be prosecuted as such. Possibly only if the child gets the disease. Parents would have to sign a declaration that they understood that if their child contracted the disease that the vaccination would have protected against, they would be tried for child abuse and if the child died they would be charged with manslaughter.
    Education is key, not primitive punishments.
    true, but unfortunately even education doesn't work on quite a few people.
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  27. #26  
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    Education works on no one who has already formed an opinion,
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    Both true- but you're responding to the concept of immediate change.

    Look at how education of key issues has changed cultural and racial attitudes in places like the United States.
    We are still learning and some people will be resistant for a long time. While there is still a ways to go, we have come a very long way and that deserves recognition.
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    We are still learning and some people will be resistant for a long time.
    When it comes to vaccination, I'm beginning to think that far too many people only learn the hard way.

    My generation was all too familiar with iron lungs and seeing people with leg braces - we have no doubt that polio vaccination is a. good. thing. We also heard from our parents all the horror stories of children dying of whooping cough and we knew about the various facilities for children who were deaf, blind or both even though we weren't fully aware of the link to german measles in pregnancy or measles in childhood. It seems that there was barely a decade between the universal availability of vaccination for these and the emergence of crank opposition to it.

    Now we have people only "learning" about the dangers of measles and pertussis because of new epidemics. If you believe in saints you should praise them that at least polio is now confined to quite small regions of the world and we're not as susceptible to an epidemic as we would be if the immunisation programs hadn't been so successful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    We are still learning and some people will be resistant for a long time.
    When it comes to vaccination, I'm beginning to think that far too many people only learn the hard way.

    My generation was all too familiar with iron lungs and seeing people with leg braces - we have no doubt that polio vaccination is a. good. thing. We also heard from our parents all the horror stories of children dying of whooping cough and we knew about the various facilities for children who were deaf, blind or both even though we weren't fully aware of the link to german measles in pregnancy or measles in childhood. It seems that there was barely a decade between the universal availability of vaccination for these and the emergence of crank opposition to it.

    Now we have people only "learning" about the dangers of measles and pertussis because of new epidemics. If you believe in saints you should praise them that at least polio is now confined to quite small regions of the world and we're not as susceptible to an epidemic as we would be if the immunisation programs hadn't been so successful.
    I fight hard to make my arguments.
    Even so, that is the practice I prefer. Although I might beat it into someones head mentally, I would not beat it into their head physically.

    There will always be cranks. Charlatans, believers and pseudo-scientists. How far should a society go in order to force everyone to think the same way?
    There is such a thing as incorrect and correct.
    But we don't always know which is which. Any of us will be opinionated, but in the end, will we be correct? Maybe sometimes. Not always. And if we force that correctness when, unseen factors influenced it to not be so correct, we may well regret it in the long run.

    I think the notion that vaccines cause autism, etc. is utterly absurd.
    But I do not know that well enough, really, to force others to agree with me.
    I have very strong opinions in the "Man Shoots Horse" thread and I voiced many as beliefs.
    How many of my beliefs can I say should be followed up with legislation?
    How far would I be willing to support that legislation?

    If there are bills proposed to:
    -Fine or bring lawsuits to people who severely neglect animals, use them for fighting games or wanton abuse.
    -Enact prison sentences for such activities
    -Fine or bring lawsuits to people that do not believe that an animal should only be killed when it's aware of the threat and can properly defend itself.
    -Enact prison time for failing an animal a proper self defense when hunting it.
    -Fine or bring lawsuits to people for showing a lack of respect for living things, including killing bees, spiders, squirrels, coyotes or other claimed "pests."
    -Making it illegal to slaughter an animal for food while it is restrained.

    I am against everything listed above, yet, I would not only show a lack of support for many of those legislative bills, I would fight some of them tooth and nail. Some of that legislation, I would be supportive of.

    It's a human frailty, to force our opinions of what is "correct" on others. And all of the above is opinion or belief. Because I simply do not know enough information to make a scientific conclusion.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    all of the above is opinion or belief. Because I simply do not know enough information to make a scientific conclusion.
    Some of us do have enough information.
    The "link" between vaccinations and autism was a fiction perpetrated by D. Andrew Wakefield, and appears to be an attempt to make bucketloads of money through an alternative patent he held. There is little doubt that this was a fraud, and that Wakefield knew it was a fraud. All this is well documented.
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  32. #31  
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    [QUOTE=Neverfly;409904][QUOTE=adelady;409897]

    It's a human frailty, to force our opinions of what is "correct" on others. And all of the above is opinion or belief. Because I simply do not know enough information to make a scientific conclusion.
    you don't? how much research does it usually take for you to recognize something as fact? i understand your not wanting to push it on others that don't agree, but i think there is enough information available to make a decision.
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    I think you guys misunderstood... I'd wandered off on some side road and wasn't referring to the autism and vaccinations.
    My point was supposed to be along the lines of: Just because we think we know better than someone else does not mean we should force them.
    On the vaccinations, my son is up to date. But should I also tell people that have a religious custom to not do something or should do something with their children? Where exactly do we draw the line of acceptable meddling and unacceptable force?
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    well, you should try educating them, but of course you can't force them. people have the right to not get their children immunized, sure. but to put other people and children at risk? they should be restricted in their interactions with other people, especially around infants not old enough to have been vaccinated. as it stands now, i believe you have to be up-to-date on your immunizations to attend public school (someone correct me if i'm wrong), which i completely agree with. i know this is how it is at my university and likely most others.
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    Where exactly do we draw the line of acceptable meddling and unacceptable force?
    Is it "unacceptable" to tell these people they shouldn't enter hospitals where people are vulnerable to every passing infection? What about doctors' waiting rooms? Aged care homes? Households with babes in arms or toddlers not fully vaccinated?

    Is it "unacceptable" to refuse them entry to childcare facilities or schools?

    I don't think so, and I don't see those restrictions as 'force' - unless you want to call these kinds of restrictions 'force'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    well, you should try educating them, but of course you can't force them. people have the right to not get their children immunized, sure. but to put other people and children at risk? they should be restricted in their interactions with other people, especially around infants not old enough to have been vaccinated. as it stands now, i believe you have to be up-to-date on your immunizations to attend public school (someone correct me if i'm wrong), which i completely agree with. i know this is how it is at my university and likely most others.
    You then run into the problem of what opinions to promote and what opinions to suppress.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Is it "unacceptable" to tell these people they shouldn't enter hospitals where people are vulnerable to every passing infection? What about doctors' waiting rooms? Aged care homes? Households with babes in arms or toddlers not fully vaccinated?

    Is it "unacceptable" to refuse them entry to childcare facilities or schools?

    I don't think so, and I don't see those restrictions as 'force' - unless you want to call these kinds of restrictions 'force'.
    Remember the post I replied to, Adelady? Stick with what I said, not what you imagined that I said. I gotta tell you- that is very annoying.
    I will quote it, again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sealeaf View Post
    It seems to me that witholding a lifesaving preventive medical proceedure is child abuse and should be prosecuted as such. Possibly only if the child gets the disease. Parents would have to sign a declaration that they understood that if their child contracted the disease that the vaccination would have protected against, they would be tried for child abuse and if the child died they would be charged with manslaughter.
    See the point of FORCE, there? That's nothing like what you just said, now is it?
    And to this, I say: Nonsense. At that point, you can charge people with manslaughter and abuse for just about anything.
    Did you feed your kid McDonalds? Child abuse!
    Did you spank your kids?
    Child Abuse!
    Did you kids have access to Sodas more often than bottled water?
    Child Abuse!
    Did you kid fall and break his wrist while skateboarding because you did not force him to wear arm pads?
    Child Abuse!

    The trend seems to be to wrap kids in bubble wrap and overprotect them so that they cannot handle the world- I could call that child abuse, too.

    Yeah, I understand that the vaccination claims are stupid- you cannot force people to not be stupid and what are the statistics?
    There was a time before these vaccines. Was everyone a bad person for dealing with the hard knocks of life, back then? Today, many vaccines are not yet been developed.
    I'm pretty sure I did not get what a normal child gets in the way of vaccinations when I was a kid. I'm still here and kicking.
    Without them, I might have had polio or smallpox... I had chicken pox as a kid... Maybe someday I will have shingles because of that... who knows. I'm not going to sit around bitching about whose fault that is, or about my parents.
    Real life has real dangers. I'm not vaccinated against Cancer...
    Most and by most, I refer to the majority, people get the vaccinations taken care. So there are a few that don't. Screw 'em. Don't tell other people how to live their OWN lives.
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    Maybe someday I will have shingles because of that...
    There's a vaccine for that. Shingles Vaccine Information, Side Effects, and More

    And I'd highly recommend it. Both my husband and I are far too old to have been immunised against chickenpox. What we didn't know was that he'd missed out on it as a child. In an adult, it is a horrendous disease. We're lining up for shingles vaccine as soon as this particular health crisis is over for him.

    Don't tell other people how to live their OWN lives.
    Well. I'd be pretty peeved if my husband had acquired his chickenpox infection from people who chose not to vaccinate. (It wasn't available at that time.)

    Vaccination is not just a personal, private matter. It's a public health matter.

    We'd object if our neighbours were putting human waste into the soil beside our fence rather than down the sewer. We're at just as much risk from those same people refusing to vaccinate their children against transmissible diseases as we are from other diseases promoted by dispersal or other improper disposal of faeces and urine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Well... Look at that... I want one... I did not know about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Well. I'd be pretty peeved if my husband had acquired his chickenpox infection from people who chose not to vaccinate. (It wasn't available at that time.)
    You're blaming other people for not doing what you want them to do? Bacteria, virus' and toxins are very prevalent.
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Vaccination is not just a personal, private matter. It's a public health matter.

    We'd object if our neighbours were putting human waste into the soil beside our fence rather than down the sewer. We're at just as much risk from those same people refusing to vaccinate their children against transmissible diseases as we are from other diseases promoted by dispersal or other improper disposal of faeces and urine.
    This argument is a tough nut to crack because it's based on the idea that other people will affect your life. It doesn't matter how many laws are in place and how many times you can blame others.
    It's a symptom of our crowded grouping. As long as you are around other people, they will affect your life and you cannot over-control others just to watch out for number one.
    If you choose to live in the city, around other people, you accept the risk it brings. Do you see the problem with the word "choose" or "choice?" They can be applied to you just as much as to others.
    What follows is a very mean, cold and personal argument. For the sake of a desperate attempt at tact, I put it in the spoiler tags.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Your husband suffered something tragic. A vaccine can prevent smallpox- but is there a vaccine for heart failure? And his tragedy affected your life deeply. You chose that risk when you said your vows. You didn't know at the time you would be doing chest compressions 'til you could not stand.
    Would you choose differently? I doubt it... I know I wouldn't.
    Even knowing that maybe he might have been able to either prevent it or at least, put it off... but for how long?
    And what else is there? Cancer?
    What if someone had argued and argued with you, insisting that you do not marry your husband because someday, you may have to face tragedy?
    The risks are a part of living. And you cannot blame others or turn to them in frustration or spite when they do not make the choices you think that they should. You choose to live in a society of Risk. If you don't like it- do something for your own life. Do not tell other people what to do with theirs.
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  39. #38  
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    If you choose to live in the city, around other people, you accept the risk it brings.
    And ... I accept the obligations and consideration for others it imposes.

    I could play orchestral and opera music all day and all night at full blast with the doors and windows open had I chosen to live isolated from others, but I didn't so I don't. I could organise a "long-drop" outhouse in those circumstances instead of a septic tank or composting toilet - but I can't do any of those things here and I shouldn't anyway. One of the hospital nurses told us that her elderly neighbour buries her own humanure straight into her tomato patch from her chamberpot. That's illegal here and in most other cities and suburbs I know of. (She hasn't reported her - but she doesn't eat any gift tomatoes either.)

    The same thing goes for viruses and infections and shared environments. Most sensible workplaces nowadays won't tolerate sick people 'soldiering on' and spreading their germs to others - they send them home and willingly pay one person's sick leave rather than 10 or 20 or 100. (I remember the day in the early 70s when several hundred people were on sick leave from the place I worked then. Spread by too many people "bravely" coming into work the previous week despite being obviously sick. People are a bit more sensible now, I hope.)

    If you want the benefits of community living, you should take on the minimum obligations of community existence. You keep your property clear of vermin. You don't sell unhygienic food. You don't put other people unnecessarily at risk by your own behaviour, whether it's on the road or by ignoring or refusing simple disease prevention procedures like vaccination. If you want to take on other responsibilities like immaculate front gardens and sparkling window glass or delivering meals on wheels, that's up to you.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  40. #39  
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    Then you are considerate.
    But you cannot expect or force others to also be "considerate" when there are limits to reason. I might be a courteous driver. But I cannot force everyone else to be- the traffic laws can only go so far as to try to control serious hazards, not just inconsiderate driving.

    So while you may choose to be considerate when living in a population of others, others may not make that conscious choice. Many need to learn how to.
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