Thread: Transdermal Toxication

I would like to start a conversation about percutaneous toxicity.
Since I have heard very little about it.

An example:
Someone inadvertently places his hand lightly impregnated with butter on a seat (stuffed with plush). Another day, someone fixed the motor of their automobile, and inadvertently placed his hand not rinsed (dried with cloth only) on that seat.

As plush seats contains humidity, and absorbs fat; then motor oil particles would remain impregnated. And as the buttocks tend to be humid and expel water vapor and sweat, then that motor oil could be absorbed slowly through the buttocks, and being so slow absorption, asyntomatically dangerous, cumulative, and depot toxicant.

Other examples:

1-A chair painted with any paint that contains lead (lead paints are prohibited today)
2-A chair painted with a glaze that melts
3-Over a seat stuffed with sponge, cookie particles has been spilled (containing saliva, artificial oils, chemical preservatives, etc) and someone inadvertently sat on.
The next day, a visitor sat on (who washed his pants in the washing machine with a triptych of colors and bills inside)

Not likely with the examples listed. Some toxins can penetrate the skin, such as toluene, but most cannot. The human skin is a pretty good barrier. Percutaneous toxicity is relatively rare.

The most common form of percutaneous toxic reaction is "heat rash". It is the result of an allergic reaction to common skin surface toxins like soap. Under hot high humidity conditions the skin pores open and teh skin becomes more permiable resulting in allergic reaction to substances that teh subject can tolerate fine under cooler drier conditions

Originally Posted by skeptic

Not likely with the examples listed. Some toxins can penetrate the skin, such as toluene, but most cannot. The human skin is a pretty good barrier. Percutaneous toxicity is relatively rare.

How nicotine patches work? Is it an exception?
Besides Toluene, how many other substances can enter the blood through the skin? Could a criminal/psychopath try to do it intentionally? (for example, in the seats of a cinema)

For karma you don't have to say the substance and the method, just give clues or methods to detect it. Education is a two edges sword.

Source: Yahoo! Groups

POISONOUS SPOUSES (all comments are speculative)

Reed McPhail asks:
Do you know of any toxins that can be stored and immunities built up till they become toxic to others?

Riley answers:
What you might could use would be an indirect method. If Person #1 was immune and therefore a poison carrier, and was at the same time taking some product that caused profuse sweating, the poison would be excreted out via their sweat... So if Person #1 was sweating really hard pressed up against someone else -Person #2- who was also sweating... the poison would then be absorbed by the other Person #2 Victim through and into his sweat-opened & -dilated skin pores.
But a whole lot of prolonged sweating would be required for that to work.

Anybody know a way to sweat that much?

Jwardtech answers:
My ex-wife who has Multiple Sclerosis, and Schizophrenia with most a her Family carries of the Schizophrenia

One day I notice her tongue hanging out of her mouth. She could keep it in her mouth. This was the signs of more problems to occur very rapidly.
Within two day, I was driving her to the best Vet Hospital in Boston.
The Doctor, gave me the bad news. Poison. Her neurological system wouldn't allow her to swallow. She was being feed intravenously. She couldn't raise her head.
The Doctor said she has seem many of cases like this and it turns out to be Rat Poison. She may have contracted many ways. She may have been given a bowl by a neighbor who now longer lives in the area.
Today I focus on my health and I have been improving since the Divorce.
Since the wife left the house I have become stronger and have naturally been getting better, but left with some permanent neurological issues.

Cleopatra's Poisonous Salve:

I had not heard the poisonous salve story. It is not as dramatic (nor romantic), however it is very much believable. Egyptian physicians could have concocted such a salve using Asp venom - or other transdermal toxin.

Which begs the question: IS Asp toxin transdermal, or must the delivery system (salve) do the job?

Source: What Eats Poison Arrow Frogs and Why are they Toxic?

WHAT EATS POISON ARROW FROGS AND WHY ARE THEY TOXIC?

The Golden Poison Frog (Phyllobates terribilis) of Colombia is said to be lethal if held in one's hand.

Poison dart authority Dr. John Daly hypothesized that (1) the amphibians make the [toxic] alkaloids themselves; (2) they made the alkaloids from something that they consumed; or (3) they collected and store the compounds from a component of their diet ... [The answer] seems to be a combination of all three. Some of the compounds (or their precursors) are found in insects eaten by the frog: alkaloids are taken in and stored from beetles, ands, and millipedes. But it was not just a question of ingesting and sequestering any and all alkaloids: when ants containing two different alkaloids were fed to the frogs, the little amphibians stored only one alkaloid in their skin and apparently excreted the other. And, in some instances, the frogs were observed seeking out and consuming particular species of insects that harbored compounds that the frogs typically stored in their own skin.

Originally Posted by bezoar

How nicotine patches work? Is it an exception?
Besides Toluene, how many other substances can enter the blood through the skin? Could a criminal/psychopath try to do it intentionally? (for example, in the seats of a cinema)

Sorry. I do not know how nicotine patches work. I do know, however, that there are carrier substances that aid in transporting another material across the skin. so, something like nicotine might be blended with a carrier to get it to penetrate.

There are a number of toxic substances related to toluene that cross the skin barrier fairly well, like xylene and others. However, they are liquids. To get enough to cross the skin to cause a toxic fatality would be difficult, simply in terms of quantity. You are more likely to make a person ill than to kill them. Certainly smearing some on a seat would not do it.

Originally Posted by skeptic

There are a number of toxic substances related to toluene that cross the skin barrier fairly well, like xylene and others. However, they are liquids. To get enough to cross the skin to cause a toxic fatality would be difficult, simply in terms of quantity. You are more likely to make a person ill than to kill them. Certainly smearing some on a seat would not do it.

But smearing everyday some in the chair of the boss (a hated one) could cause chronic poisoning. Am i right?

For example, an European Union organism regulates the quantity of azo dyes and chromium V (proved cancerogenics) of the commercial leather.

Originally Posted by bezoar

For example, an European Union organism regulates the quantity of azo dyes and chromium V (proved cancerogenics) of the commercial leather.

That is almost certainly an over-reaction. Governments tend to be ultra-conservative in relation to toxins or potential carcinogens. It is unlikely in the extreme that anyone could get cancer from either azo dye or chromium VI in leather, through contact.

Originally Posted by skeptic

Originally Posted by bezoar

For example, an European Union organism regulates the quantity of azo dyes and chromium V (proved cancerogenics) of the commercial leather.

That is almost certainly an over-reaction. Governments tend to be ultra-conservative in relation to toxins or potential carcinogens. It is unlikely in the extreme that anyone could get cancer from either azo dye or chromium VI in leather, through contact.

I agree with skeptic, this seems undue worry. Generally the EU is very officious when it comes to any risk seemingly no matter how small, exposure levels would have to be constant and extreme before you would be put at any real risk.

I was found in my medical dictionary the following:

Tetraethyl Lead: Tetraethyllead (common name tetraethyl lead) is a very toxic organolead compound. An inexpensive octane booster which allowed engine compression. I may readily enter the body through the skin

See in page 1, Health Hazard Information. Routes of Exposure:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/81-123/pdfs/0601.pdf

Fortunately tetraethyl lead is not longer used in car fuels. There is a lot of stuff written about its effects and it is not always easy to determine what is possibly true and what is utter scientific garbage.

I came across a suggestion (from an eminent academic) that the current drop in crime across the western world is due to removing lead from car fuels.
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Originally Posted by skeptic

Fortunately tetraethyl lead is not longer used in car fuels. There is a lot of stuff written about its effects and it is not always easy to determine what is possibly true and what is utter scientific garbage.

I came across a suggestion (from an eminent academic) that the current drop in crime across the western world is due to removing lead from car fuels.
?????????????????????

Could you quote the link? Or the title of the work of the eminent academic?

Now, i'm questioning the objectivity of my medical dictionary. It emphazised on transdermal hazardous. The cdc.gov too.

I doubt I could find it again. It was just something I came across while jumping from web site to web site in general research. I had my doubts. Sounded like pure speculation.

I unfortunately have several years of personal experience with transdermal drug residues causing chronic illness. Herbal St. John's Wort, tobacco, ephedra sinica, butterfly weed, and rhododendron were several of the plants that I handled or accidentally came in contact with, and they contaminated my belongings and went directly through my skin when I touched those objects, which caused me to have chronic symptoms. I have been getting rid of these contaminated objects because I cannot wash them off.

It began when I was trying to grow some medicinal herbs inside my apartment because I wanted to treat chronic fatigue and other ongoing health problems. I was deliberately using St. John's Wort transdermally, by crushing the leaves and putting them in oil, which I would drop on my skin in small amounts. It turned out that the oil wasn't even necessary - merely handling the leaves or the seeds of various plants was enough to have a reaction to the tiny traces of drugs that would go directly through the skin. Ephedra was the worst one. When I contaminated my belongings with ephedra oils, I gave up completely on the entire project of trying to grow my own medicinal herbs, and it basically ruined my life for a long time. Yes, it CAN be used maliciously to harm someone else.

I remember a study saying PFC-s spread pretty good with skin contact, but its importance is only marginal, as we eat in larger amounts.

It emphazised on transdermal hazardous. Thecdc.gov too.

If you're going by the CDC recommendations, their biggest concerns are with large exposures to vulnerable people. So they're really hot on warnings for chemicals where there may be large or chronic exposure - with people working with chemicals, and children. In the case you mentioned of upholstery materials, their prime concerns would be firstly, with people building chairs and constantly handling those materials with a large chronic large exposure and secondly, with any such items that might be used where children would lick or chew or expose large portions of their (very small total area) skin. So something that gets an easy pass for an executive or theatre chair would have to meet more stringent standards if it were to be used as day care centre equipment.

Remember the most important thing about toxicity. The dose makes the poison.

Originally Posted by longhairlover

I unfortunately have several years of personal experience with transdermal drug residues causing chronic illness. Herbal St. John's Wort, tobacco, ephedra sinica, butterfly weed, and rhododendron

The dangers of self medication, or else following the advice of woo practitioners.

Herbal remedies are offered are advised by the thousands. Few have been fully tested scientifically. Of those few, the vast majority are either ineffective, or effective only to a minor degree. A few are seriously harmful.

As always, the best advice is not to self medicate, but go to a doctor. If you do not like one doctor, find another, and use a specialist if necessary. A person who treats himself has a fool for a patient.

There are a many of toxic substances which is related to toluene that cross the skin barrier fairly well, like xylene and others
. Best way to get the doctor advice for any issue..

I feel something special for a lady, I think I'm in love with her.
The problem is she belongs to a social class far lower than mine (their knowledge on prevention of toxic agents, in a scale of 1-10, could be 2) and his father is an alcoholic.

Certainly I doubt that I could find a so charming girl like her in my social class

I have real fear of hurt her feelings, I could not forgive myself.

I wonder if you know of any chemicals or microorganism of her furniture that could penetrate through my skin (regard volatile agents, i was read about radon, a cancerogenic element of dust), if I frequent a lot her home.

bezoar

It is unlikely in the extreme that poverty will result in her home having significant toxic agents that might penetrate your skin.

There is a hazard related to poverty, and that is infectious illness. Tuberculosis, for example, is much more common among poor people, due to over-crowding. However, if you cannot evaluate any such risk, you are not smart (TB is shown by coughing, and you need to keep away from people who cough). If you allow that tiny risk to keep you away from the girl of your dreams, you are not much of a man.

Be smart. Be bold. Win your lady.

Originally Posted by skeptic

bezoar
(TB is shown by coughing, and you need to keep away from people who cough). If you allow that tiny risk to keep you away from the girl of your dreams, you are not much of a man.

Tuberculosis is very common. I think it is probable one member could have latent TB, at least, and my health is fragile. Have chronic anal fisure and idiopathic constipation.
I live in Peru. South America. Physicians fight against scarcely, often misdiagnoses, are many are underqualified.

bezoar

Have you had the BCG vaccination?
If not, I suggest you investigate getting it. It is not perfect, and TB can still, rarely, be caught after vaccination, but it reduces the likelihood substantially. Find a doctor and ask.

One doctor suspected the fisure could have been caused by TB, he did a microscopic analysis but the result was negative. Other doctor did a biopsy, negative again.

The BCG vaccine is a test in itself. If you have TB antibodies, there will be a visible, but harmless reaction.

I had the BCG vaccination, two times tetatus vaccination. There were aproximately 5-6 different innoculations i can vaguely remember of childhood. When i was a child my mother always payed attention on vaccinations

Well then. Your risk is small.
Go chase your lady love.

Originally Posted by bezoar

Besides Toluene, how many other substances can enter the blood through the skin? Could a criminal/psychopath try to do it intentionally? (for example, in the seats of a cinema)

A very great number of substances can be made to enter the human body's system through the skin, by first being dissolved in DMSO (Dimethylsulfoxide). This stuff possesses the ability to easily and quickly be absorbed through the skin, and is at the same time a strong and potent solvent for many chemicals. It was commonly sold nearly everywhere, unrestricted, years ago. jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by bezoar

Besides Toluene, how many other substances can enter the blood through the skin? Could a criminal/psychopath try to do it intentionally? (for example, in the seats of a cinema)

A very great number of substances can be made to enter the human body's system through the skin, by first being dissolved in DMSO (Dimethylsulfoxide). This stuff possesses the ability to easily and quickly be absorbed through the skin, and is at the same time a strong and potent solvent for many chemicals. It was commonly sold nearly everywhere, unrestricted, years ago. jocular

But now it is restricted, so the seat of the super-hated boss is safe for now.

I suspect concern was for bacterially contaminated material dissolved in DMSO, might just allow bacterial body entry. I have seen DMSO listed for sale recently by chemical supply houses. jocular

Originally Posted by skeptic

Well then. Your risk is small.

thank you very much for your help