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Thread: Vaccines and Seizures

  1. #1 Vaccines and Seizures 
    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
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    Can vaccines cause seizures (I'm assuming in small children)? If so why? I would think a small amount of protein that gets attacked by antibodies wouldn't even make it to the brain.


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  3. #2  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
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    Yes they can.
    However, such a reaction is rare. The MMR vaccine can cause seizures in about one person in 3,000 receiving the dose.

    Compare this to the side effects of not getting the vaccines.
    One in two will get measles. Of those, 1 in 1,000 will die of the measles.
    Complications of measles include meningitis, encephalitis, conjunctivitis, pneumonia and (guess what) SEIZURES!

    If I were considering giving MMR to a child, I would accept minimal risk from getting the vaccine compared to very substantial risk from not.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    Vaccines also sometimes have mercury, aluminium and other unexpected compounds in them. With my HepB inoculation i had days of feeling dizzy, nausea, blurred vision, etc. Which is mainly a reaction occuring from the brain on those materials.

    I can see seizures happening as well in this way..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Vaccines also sometimes have mercury, aluminium and other unexpected compounds in them. ..
    Not any more. What century are you in?
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  6. #5  
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    Oh lordy, mercury and aluminium in vaccines.

    Firstly, let's get rid of the mercury boogey-man. The people who objected to thimerosal in vaccines were non-scientific people who didn't understand the differences between ethyl v. methyl mercury compounds. They heard about Minamata disease or dangerous levels of mercury in fish or other such problems and never bothered to ask whether other compounds which contained mercury had the same characteristics. Mercury thereby 'equalled' danger. This public misconception led governments and industry to remove thimerosal preservatives from all childhood vaccines despite it having no adverse effects ever. It's still used in some forms of flu vaccine - but you can always ask for the non-version if you want to. In my view, merely asking for that indicates that someone is either ignorant of science or actively anti-science in medicine. (I might add. The main proponents of its removal were the vaccines cause autism crowd. As it's been out now for about 10 years, and the rate of autism diagnosis hasn't changed, you'd think they would have pulled their heads in by now.)

    Aluminium is one element in some adjuvant compounds. Adjuvants are included in modern vaccines which contain no live virus to help stimulate immune response to the more-or-less inactive viral components. As for aluminium being 'unexpected'. It's in feldspar which is one of the most common substances in garden soil. Babies get heaps of the stuff from breast milk - and from every other thing they're likely to eat throughout their lifetimes.

    I would think a small amount of protein that gets attacked by antibodies wouldn't even make it to the brain.
    Absolutely. Seizures are usually in response to fevers not to direct reaction in the brain. Anyone who worries that a child might suffer from fever-leading-to-seizures from vaccines should be first in line at the vaccination clinic. The likelihood of fevers, seizures, encephalitis and other adverse consequences is much, much higher for disease caused by the wild virus than for the much milder reaction from vaccines.
    Strange, Joer, westwind and 1 others like this.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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  7. #6  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    Some people have a different reaction to them. Ive heard life expectancy for people who get multiple unnecessary vaccinations declines. The more vaccinations a person has, the shorter the life expectancy. This makes you think about the safety of those vaccines, and what compounds in there are causing the reaction. Though i might add, i'm a microbiologist, and no expert on vaccines..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    What is the veracity of the claim that life expectancy declines though. Is it data from a published report or is it rumor that has spread on the net?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  9. #8  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    ...
    It is refreshing to hear someone talk so much sense after some of the other threads I have been reading. Thanks for the breath of fresh air!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What is the veracity of the claim that life expectancy declines though. Is it data from a published report or is it rumor that has spread on the net?
    Well, I know where I am putting my money...
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  10. #9  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
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    Zwolver

    I get the strong impression that you have been reading some crackpot web sites.
    When you makes claims like : "vaccines reduce life span", then the correct thing to do is post your reference so that the rest of us may judge the quality of your data. If it comes from a crackpot web site, which I suspect it does, then we know there is no science in it.
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  11. #10  
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    Found this about aluminium in vaccines. It's got numbers and everything!

    http://www.chop.edu/export/download/...r/aluminum.pdf
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  12. #11  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    Ive searched for anything that covers what i meant to say. (Life expectancy decline of vaccinated, vs unvaccinated people, both not suffering from any illness) But to futile effords, as i have found nothing scientific to back up this claim.

    But my own logic dictates that if only looking at people who don't get the illnes, the ones vaccinated will have a disadvantage. As their body suffered stress that the unvaccinated ones didn't have.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  13. #12  
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    But my own logic dictates that if only looking at people who don't get the illnes, the ones vaccinated will have a disadvantage. As their body suffered stress that the unvaccinated ones didn't have.
    You're talking only of the ones that managed to avoid contact with the wild pathogen then?

    The unvaccinated group are more likely to have experienced the transmissible disease itself. Most of them involve at least a day or two of fever, if you have a mild case, a couple of weeks of that awful 'virusy' feeling, a few scars from scratched rashes that get infected, three or more weeks off school for the quarantine period imposed during the outbreak. And that's presuming they don't get any of the complications needing hospitalisation, like encephalitis or convulsions from fever. Nor do they have any residual effects on hearing or sight or mental retardation following meningitis. Of course, they might have died so that puts an end to all stresses.

    I think you're getting some seriously bad information from somewhere. The idea that vaccines 'stress' the body is nonsense. The moment a baby is born it gets a sudden exposure to multitudes of pathogens. And it continues to do so. From food, and if you've ever watched a toddler engage with the world, from non food items stuffed in the mouth to scratches and scrapes from physical clumsiness.

    Any child who displays a strong reaction to a vaccination would be the kind of patient who suffers more effects from the wild pathogen. Seeing as every single wild pathogen has the potential to kill, vaccination is a pretty good idea.

    And this.... Whooping cough cases reach epidemic levels in much of Washington - 4/3/2012 - Washington State Department of Health is what happens to babies when the rest of the population who are old enough to have been vaccinated don't get it done.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    But my own logic dictates that if only looking at people who don't get the illnes, the ones vaccinated will have a disadvantage. As their body suffered stress that the unvaccinated ones didn't have.
    Your "own logic" is terrible. No insult intended, but that is a provably correct statement. You should stop trusting your logic and search for the truth outside of your own unreliable head.

    I would hope that your training for becoming a microbiologist would have included a basic course in chemistry, where they'd have taught that compounds may behave quite differently from the elements comprising them. Table salt acts nothing like sodium or chlorine, so why should thimerosal in vaccines have the same effect as elemental mercury? Don't you think that some research would be warranted before simply repeating something that you've heard because it happens to conform to your own beliefs?

    Adelady has provided you with excellent information. I strongly urge you to study it before again rebroadcasting ignorance. There's already too much noise. Need more signal.
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  15. #14  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
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    There is now a lot of evidence that regular exposure to minor pathogens is healthy. The 'hygiene hypothesis' relates asthma and eczema to too little such exposure, meaning that the immune system is out of whack. Epidemiologists have shown that those who have been vaccinated against smallpox (no longer done) have added resistance to melanoma.

    So the idea that vaccines shorten your life is actually diametrically opposite to the truth. The evidence would suggest that proper vaccinations will increase average life span.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Ive searched for anything that covers what i meant to say. (Life expectancy decline of vaccinated, vs unvaccinated people, both not suffering from any illness) But to futile effords, as i have found nothing scientific to back up this claim.

    But my own logic dictates that if only looking at people who don't get the illnes, the ones vaccinated will have a disadvantage. As their body suffered stress that the unvaccinated ones didn't have.
    To make a correct comparison it would have to be the average life span of all vaccinated persons verses all un-vaccinated ones, most definitely including those that contract and die of wild pathogens. You have to include those because you can't predict who will contract the wild pathogen. If you could say at the time when you are offered a vaccination. "Oh, I have decided not to be exposed to measles, so I don't need to be vaccinated." then there would in fact be no point in being vaccinated. Since you can't make that statement, then refusing vaccination is the equivalent of applying for the Darwin award.
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  17. #16  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    I know you can't just say "Im not going to be infected with the measles so i won't be needing vaccinations". And some things i have heard from nonscientific sources have been used in my logic yes. But i was only talking about the extra energy the body would need to fight off those other diseases you (at the end of your life) have never come into contact with. More memory cells in your bloodstream, means less of each antibody type producing b cells. As you can only have so many of them, having more types, will not help on the response time to the actual disease.

    I am clearly aware that it can not be avoided, that vaccinations are needed in a way to control the diseases. But also that not vaccinating a small portion of the world's population, keeps the disease active. If a total population would be immune to the effects of a disease at the same time, the disease would be gone right?

    But for most, you guys are right, and mostly used points i myself support. But to learn, i always tend to think outside the box. And scurry at the edge of truth and make believe. So that's why i said what i did, not to humiliate myself.

    Lol..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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