Boshaken!!! Aloha!!Welcome and great comment!
Boshaken!!! Aloha!!Welcome and great comment!
Does DE affect birth control pills?
On youtube I recently heard about food grade diatomaceous earth being able to get rid of parasites and increase energy in humans and animals, supply silica that improves the quality of hair and nails, as well as burn fat, & lower high blood pressure, which all sounds quite good, so I ordered a 10 lb bag of it about 2 weeks ago and have been taking a heaping tablespoon with a mixture of ~ 1/3 liter of fruit juice + 2/3 liter of distilled water + 1/2 tsp of himalayan salt, every morning, and the only difference I have noticed is that I can almost feel a sandpapered feeling down my throat and can sort of feel that feeling throughout my entire digestive tract from top to bottom, starting at the top of my throat, and I have developed a slight cough because of it, especially after 1st waking in the morning, none of which seems like a good thing, and I have not noticed losing any parasites, but when I first heard about it, I wanted to tell everyone about finding out about this amazing substance, assuming that it would work. So far I haven't noticed any improvements in anything, only the bad effects I just mentioned, so I'm wondering if all the good reports are just elation at hearing about a natural supplement that's supposed to do all those good things. It would appear to be so. The ability to kill bed bugs and dust mites without toxic chemicals (with clear instructions on safe use) could be a good thing , but it supposedly kills all insects, including bees, and our planet would be ruined if we lose the bees that pollinate 67 -75% of all plants & crops, so it should probably never be used to dust plants with because of endangering the already endangered bees. Also, adverts claim it does not harm earth worms if used to dust crops, but at the same time it's supposed to kill any worms that are parasites that come in contact with it, that are found in the intestines of all humans and animals ▬ how can both be true? So, does it kill all worms that come in contact with it or does it not harm worms at all? I'm looking for lots of experiences, and summaries w/links of honest research and testing of the results of using and consuming diatomaceous earth. Thanks for the excellent reports listed on this forum so far!
Not all worms are created equal. Earth worms spend their lives eating dirt. Parasites on the other hand might be living inside you, a big difference in their requirements to live and procreate. Personally I don't believe the hype and testimonials are always suspect. Diatomaceous earth is mostly non-reactive with living tissue, but it is somewhat abrasive. IMO it's that abrasive quality that might be hazardous to bugs and parasites. I used it once to try and get rid of cockroaches and was very disappointed in the results.
I found the following link that has some info on it.
Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth Helps Eliminate Worms & Parasites
Also, welcome to the forum.
I have heard that most Americans are silica deficient and need to ingest more, so what are the ways that you know of to get an organic silica that IS able to be absorbed?
Silica is one of the main components of soils. It's in everything we grow and everything we eat. I've not heard of any such thing as a silica deficiency.
Are you sure you're not confusing it with selenium? Many soils in many places are deficient in selenium. Dietary deficiency is easily remedied by eating a few brazil nuts.
Thank you, Bad Robot. Your AI avatar is adorable. Also, thanks adelady. I love your quotes.
If you would not eat ground glass then why would you eat diatomaceous earth?
The Life Extension Magazine article below. Very good article, makes a lot of sense.
LE Magazine, April 2003 - Report: Silicon: An Overlooked Trace Mineral
Hello, new guy here. resurrecting an old post maybe but I could not help but join!
I find it concerning that one seems to be calling the kettle black? do you have any peer reviewed information against the use of DE? How do I know your not paid as well as the other naysayers? (honestly?) from the outside looking in to this forum that's what it looks like yet you claim the opposite, on what grounds or proof other than your beliefs. Is DE a high profit product? Nikola Tesla ran into this all the time and look what it did to him but thankfully others pushed on and we can have discussions like this. Please give your argument some substance, not just rhetorical rants. It breaks down the legitimacy of your rebuttals.
All said with :smile: smiles :smile:, looking for the truth not opinions or beliefs. Possibly by now new information is available? I would like to know more about this subject.
Thank you, I just attacked some spring carpet beetles with DE. when I was looking into the different uses of DE I found.....actually, were all eating it already!<br>
Digging deeper there has been quite allot of scientific research. the link below may be of some interest, and it recites numerous studies as well. still not ready to eat it! but I will kill some bugs! <br>
Some things make sense and others do not, I will be reviewing more of the research and see where that takes me.<br>
I think you need 20 posts before you can post links and pictures.
And silicon and silica are not the same.
Welcome to the forum.:mrgreen:
SILICON: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings - WebMD
Silica Supplement Health Benefits, Side Effects, and Reviews
You would need to read up on what DE is, what it's made of & why it's used for getting rid of bugs (externally), as a livestock feed anti-caking agent (and how it benefits those mammals when they ingest it), etc. It is not what you're assuming it is here. There is a lot of information out in cyberspace on diatomaceous earth, why it's an essential mineral, and how it's used. Human-grade, non-heat treated DE can be beneficial, moreover has been used for a long while now to rid animals of parasites & bug infestations, both internally and externally. The heat-treated form is NOT for human ingestion & yes, can be dangerous if misused or inhaled.
People like to say, "correlation is not causation" -yet there is a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that those humans ingesting food-grade DE are deriving benefits from it. And let's face it, most scientific studies are begun on the premise of linking correlation & possible observed, then proven causation.
I need to investigate further & discover if any scientists have pinpointed the exact mechanism by which DE provides health benefits -when ingested by humans. It seems, after reading up on it for about a week now, that DE acts as a detoxifier. I'd like to discover how it does this. Do not stop at simply "DE is small sharp fragments of silica". Do not mistake it for quartz or glass until you look at their various molecular compositions.
Have you ever wondered why so many people are turning up with food allergies? There are some things we ingest which our bodies can & do make use of, yet many of us are ignorant as to just exactly how.
Conversely, in the case of food allergies, our digestive systems may simply be ill-equipped to breakdown & than absorb any nutritional components of some of the foods, grains & nuts we eat. Grains & nuts in particular are big allergy-antagonists. When stored, nuts, especially peanuts, will collect mold on their surface. It's these molds which cause the allergic reaction. As for grains, they also gather mold spores when stored, but can provoke allergic responses because we cannot breakdown -and thus cannot digest- their hulls.
So what happens when, over time, we ingest these grains which we either digest inefficiently, or perhaps not at all? Our bodies throw off what it can't use. They clog our intestinal tracts. Perhaps, like most cooked meats (which our bodies don't digest well at all) they sit in our guts & putrefy, which in turn causes toxicity over time. Overt toxicity leads ultimately to diseases like cancer. Parasites also play parts in the development of diseases.
My point here is, read. When you find something you don't quite understand, ask for clarification from an expert. There is a lot to learn on any subject, and there is much we take for granted with respect to our overall health, which is rooted in nutrition. Not just eating. Providing our bodies with nutrition is not always the same as eating, as our obese, diabetic, heart & mind-diseased society is slowly discovering.
Silica is a compound created when silicon, the element, is oxidized. Therein lies la difference! Thanks for the greetings, and back at ya!
I understand I cannot add any links until I reach a certain threshold of posts, so I'll just say, check out Perma-Guard's website about diatomaceous earth. It's quite interesting. From there, you can go in any direction -for or against human ingestion for health benefits, as a detoxifier, etc.
I was certainly interested in how it's used as an animal feed anti-caking agent, and for fleas, parasite infections, etc, as I have two dogs & a cat. Thankfully no problems with fleas yet, but one dog did develop what the emergency vet eventually diagnosed as a helicobacter infection. Now that I read about coccidia/coccidiosis, the symptoms sound eerily similar to the helicobacter. Makes me wonder.
I have a lot of questions about any new subject, but DE impressed me after I read hundreds of testimonials (the list was HUGE, I stopped at "hundreds") from people who initially bought it to deal with bugs, then heard about & began using it for its health benefits.
A friend ordered some DE to rid her place of bed bugs she got when she ordered a new bed, of all things! I was like, oh no they didn't! Oh yes, the manufacturer did. Bummer. She began reading about the use of DE for this specific purpose, and discovered that food-grade DE has other uses, including health benefits to humans when ingested.
I just received my order of food-grade DE, and will be trying it out this weekend (ingesting). I believe I will also use it in my garden to condition the soil. Seems there are a few things I can use it for. The only bug issues I have in Spring/Summer/Fall are ants (sometimes) and spiders (a lot). I wonder if DE works as a non-toxic, non-chemical spider killer? Hmmm, we shall see....
It seems you are very opinionated on this subject. Silica in the form of DE is not very useable by the body, but there are many silica/silicon supplements that provide those ingredients in forms that can be absorbed by the body, and they can make a very positive difference to your health. For most people DE by itself is not going to do very much for them. But it's cheap and won't break the bank, so if you want to use it, by all means do so.
When it come to bugs, it's not real great. The way it works is by interfering with the bugs breathing.
The DE particles get caught in the breathing holes. However unless the bugs are wallowing in it, it will be a very slow process and if I had bed bugs I couldn't wait that long.:mrgreen: Next I don't pay much attention to testimonials about anything as you have no way to tell who's really writing those testimonials. I wouldn't put it past the guy trying to sell the product to write fake one's or maybe pay others to say wonderful things.Quote:
Breathing holes located along the sides of insects. The spiracles are connected to the air tubes, or trachea, and allow the insect to exchange gases. The insect can open or close the spiracles by contracting muscles along its side.
As to when you can post links and pictures, I believe you need 20 posts. But You could copy a link and post it as simple text, which makes it easy to copy and paste for the rest of us.
Just reading your link, very interesting. As for parasites, there are doctors, researchers, and immunologists who make whole careers out of parasitic infection detection, treatment, etc. Why, you may ask, would this be of interest to me, a layperson? A friend from high school recently passed away just before her 52nd birthday from what could possibly have been a long-term parasitic infection by a common liver fluke. I say "possibly" because of several factors: At the time she began presenting with symptoms, then was finally diagnosed last Summer (she passed away this past Thanksgiving), I looked up "cholangiocarcinoma" because I'd never heard of it, only guessed at the derivation of "chol" which usually involves the liver. This is a case of "correlation may not be causation" but there are some coincidences here....
She lived in Thailand for many years, where they have the highest rate of cholangiocarcinoma (commonly referred to generally as "bile duct cancer"). Rural Thais (living away from the ocean) love a regional dish prepared with raw, freshwater fish. Their yearly rate of diagnoses is something like 2700 new cases per year. They only discovered the link by looking at common factors, like age groups (most people who develop this cancer don't live beyond 55 yrs. Usually by the time of diagnosis & after the onset of symptoms which include jaundice & pancreatitis, it's too late, the parasitic flukes have done their rather extensive damage), and certainly what part of Thailand they either reside in or originated from. Bayer is, I believe, the only pharmaceutical company presently making an effective anti-parasitic drug designed to eradicate this liver fluke. Parasites are a scourge!
If her doctor(s) did not know she had once lived in rural Thailand for more than 10 yrs (missionary parents), they might not have put those pieces together to link her disease to a parasitic fluke infection. If they had, they may have been able to treat her, but I suspect that her condition was so advanced by last Summer to make treatment useless. If she became infected by the fluke, she would have been harboring these parasites for more than 15 yrs (she returned to the USA in mid-1980s), more than enough time for them to destroy her liver, pancreas, gall bladder, stomach & bile ducts. It certainly was an education for me. RIP to her.
Your link is very interesting, I'm still reading, thanks!
How about just control them? For one, they bite (ouch!).
I'm game, I'll report back! Oh wait, that would qualify as a testimonial.....;-)
I hit this sight looking for info on using DE for human consumption. I see many posts referring to DE as just a silica particle - that is misinformed. Silica or sand are pulverized quartz particles that have the surface area of an ordinary sphere. DE is a fossil that has an enormous amount of surface area. If you look at it under a microscope, each particle is a huge labyrinth. Long ago, our DE salesman cave me the ratio of surface area - I've long forgotten it, but it was a HUGE number; thousands of square feet/particle.
I used DE in the paper recycling industry. As you could imagine, there are a number of undesirable compounds in paper that is being recycled. The biggest problem are adhesives (called stickies in the industry) that would wreck a paper machine. There are thousands of formulations for adhesives; all organic but with varying degrees of polarity. As the adhesives were reduced in size during our process, they were easily captured in the tunnels of the DE. We were one of the pioneers in recognizing this use. The DE particles, after given the opportunity to do their work, were removed intact in another process with the undesirables stuck in the in internal maze.
Fast forwarding to today, I'm getting old and have an old man's paunch. It occurred to me that in my battle for weight control, DE would make an incredible sorbent for carbohydrates as an adjunct to the Atkins type diet. I was curious if there were any other pioneers out there, but I guess I'm the first. If I survive, I'll post the results. My plan is to add a very small quantity of DE (mindful of the abrasive qualities of DE) with any meal containing carbs. Fiber is too large to interact with the DE and should help in passing it. Fats may collect on the exterior is small numbers, but that is not the goal.
Anyway, getting back to some of the points you made. I know all about the porous nature of DE as I used to have an aquarium that used a DE filter. But that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't provide any nutrients that the body needs. Mostly it's largely inert in the human digestive tract. The filtering ability of it happens when a fluid is forced to flow through it and that doesn't happen in your digestive tract.
It's claimed that it filters down to less than a micron, so I would assume any particles that it might trap in your digestive tract would be indiscriminate and very small. But being porous doesn't guarantee it will trap anything as there is no pressure forcing anything through it. It claims the ability to help clear parasites out of your digestive track and I can well imagine that the parasites wouldn't like it very much, but I don't really know if it does or how effective it might be against any particular parasite. I think someone mentioned liver flukes as a reason to use DE. They are not in the digestive tract and would not be affected in any way.
Personally I think you will get tired of eating dirt long before you notice any positive results.:mrgreen:
I'm excited to be here because this discussion is still recent. I've read through all 4 pages of this discussion.
I've been taking approximately 1 tablespoon give or take of  DE for I'm guessing at least 6 mos. I usually mix it in a glass of kefir (tibicos) water or 2nd steep green tea.
I purchased my DE from [-]. When I purchased DE, I think I was researching Bentonite Clay for health then the health store guy at [-] said you should try DE. So when I found [-] DE, I was like score! It had 35% calcium bentonite and the rest DE.
But [-] DE is different from the other pictures of DE I see being posted. It's very course. Gravel like. I'm concerned that by injesting this DE, I will damage my digestive tract.
I got interested in clay because there was some mention of it in Sally Fallon's "Nourishing Traditions" book which mentions that ancient people used to have more clay in their diet and thus lived longer. She outlined the research of Weston Price. Any health benefits of clay?
After reading this forum, I quit taking DE for 2 days now but I may go back. I feel like a dumb-ass for not researching DE more thoroughly before injestion but I'm still on the fence about the whole thing.
I'm wondering if the kefir water, which is high in probiotics, extracts the silisilic acid out of the DE in my gut.
After I take DE in the morning 1 hour away from other food, I usually need to have a bowel movement within half hour or so. Other than that, I can't say I've noticed any other effects. I'm a chronic doubter of things, so I don't think the placebo effect works on me.
I've been doing some research on the topic of hormesis which is very exciting because now I don't have to "worry that much" about toxins such as pesticide residues on produce. So wouldn't the intake of DE produce an hormetic effect in the body. ie. a positive effect. A low level of benefit inducing stress. Or wouldn't a low levels of arsenic produce an hormetic effect? Or even a low level of lead. The principle of hormesis is attributed to the positive effect that even low level of dioxin has and that the lethal dose response curve is not a good way to measure toxic effects in the human body. So what about metals? Could the supposed arsenic in DE be positive to the human body if we apply the principle of hormesis?
While I'm here, but totally off-topic, if I take canola oil and put it in a bunch of sugar consuming kefir water for several days, ie. pickle canola oil, what happens to the canola oil? Is the omega-6 converted to something else. I hate seed oils like canola and soya oil for the omega 6 but these oils are ubiquitous in NA. Do the C's and H's and the bonds break down so that I have a different potentially healthy substance. The reason I ask is I like the pomegranate juice that's in those Wendy's dressings but I hate the type of oil used. But if I "kefirize" it, maybe I have something good. Any chemists care to enlighten me on whether pickled canola oil converts to something healthier? I've dug through enough research papers but it's getting very tedious and I haven't found anything yet.
Back to DE, wouldn't the consumption of DE remove any aluminum sticking around in our stomach from the night before?
So what do you think of all the animal animal studies on the [-] website that show benefits. I think those studies were what convinced me to try it.
I can't post links so google [-] Diatomaceous Earth and click on "studies". What do you think of those studies that say DE is good for animals? Those universities where the studies are being conducted are reputable. Perhaps all you scientists can figure out the flaws and confirmation biases in the research. As for being double blind, I don't even know what that is but I'm sure you don't have to make double blind allowances for animals.
EDIT: [-] indicates that I've removed the name of commercial enterprise/link that sa1 is recommending. I thought that was better than dumping the hole of their first ever comment.
Adelady - moderator
Double blind for animal studies?
The important thing is that the people who care for the animals must not know whether they are given the item being tested or the placebo/neutral alternative. After all, they're the ones who will form the opinions about how the animal is responding. Very important when there are no objective blood or other analyses available.
There's a lot of information on DE on the Net. I wouldn't pay much attention to what people selling it say about it.
When it comes to heavy metals, DE won't help even a little bit. DE does not soak up toxins and then exit the body. It might help clean out your digestive track a bit, as in your case it seems to act like a laxative. Food grade DE is mostly made of silica, which does not digest and remains mostly inert while passing through your body. The DE particles are very porous and make a great filtration substance when a fluid is being forced through it at pressure. That process does not happen in your gut.
I believe DE's claim to fame comes from it's ability to clear parasites out of animal guts. After all I've read about it I still remain unclear about how effective it really is.
PS - Welcome to the forum.
I'm too lazy to review the whole thread (being new) but you people do realize what diatomaceous earth is, right? Nothing but the fossilized remains of diatoms. Why / how is this a good thing to eat?
My apologies if this has already been addressed (I imagine it has), but why not eat crushed coral? Having had experience with DE in marine aquarium maintenance, it seems pretty much equivalent when it comes to ingestion...
Thanks for keeping my post moderator. However, I'm fairly certain I saw in an earlier post the name brand of the DE that I used. However, I mentioned the brand over 5 times so it stood out.
Well, I guess I'll just have to direct people to the actual studies on this particular brand of DE and the brand will clearly be mentioned in the study. The brand I'm referring to is so mainstream for the farm world that it would be like removing a reference to drinking a Coca Cola or a reference to riding a Harley. When a reference to Wolf Creek Ranch was made, that was considered ok by the moderator. They sell DE too and they seem more hokey than the brand I was referring to. I have several studies that mention the brand name in their study. These studies show a definite effect in poultry, swine, and cattle.
I can't believe the stifling of proper scientific discussion here. If you google the first study listed, you'll know which brand I'm talking about.
I am referring to the following studies:
Effect of diatomaceous earth on bone mineralization in free-range organic laying hens.
Effect of diatomaceous earth on parasite load, egg production, and egg quality of free-range organic laying hens.
Effect of Dietary Diatomaceous Earth and a Single Topical Application of llarn Fresh on House Fly, Musca domestica L., Breeding, Egg Quality and Selected Manure Nutrients
Effect of diatomaceous earth on parasite load, egg production, and egg quality of free-range organic laying hens
Effect of diatomaceous earth on bone mineralization in free-range organic laying hens.
All the other studies that I want to include here mention the brand name so what do I do for that. If the actual study at the University of Saskatchewan or UBC or other reputable university actually mentions the brand name in the title then am I not allowed to include the real title Moderator?
So here they are:
EFFECT OF DIETARY -----can't name brand----- ON BROILER PERFORt'1ANCE AND ODOUR CONTROL IN BROILER BARNS
Mode of Action of ----this well known brand-- in ruminant rations
Effect of Dietary Inclusion of ----this brand-----on the Growth Performance of Weanling Pigs
When I made the decision to try out DE several months ago, I did a cursory look at these studies.
This "big mystery here" brand is 65% DE and 35% clay.
So do you think it's the clay in this brand that is creating increased egg size, yolk size, bone mineralization, etc. as seen in these studies.
These studies are not sponsored by the actual brand name from what I've seen. As for the studies being double-blind, I don't think farm hands know which feed is "control" and which feed is 2% DE added. One of the studies that had the effect of increased egg size was calling the control "BB", which means the feed feeding person doesn't know which feed has what in it.
That often happens when you're copying from a pdf where the document contains a heading or similar set-in-concrete format.Quote:
When I copy and paste, my font changes
What I usually do is to copy it, then type the words in and delete the provided format stuff when I'm done. (I find it too easy to forget or miss stuff if I keep going from tab to tab.) It's annoying, I've tried all sorts of messing about in the Go Advanced window, but it never works.
You'll get used to it after a while.
Bad Robot says "I believe DE's claim to fame comes from it's ability to clear parasites out of animal guts. " And I think he's a senior poster who is well indoctrinated to the scientific rigours of avoiding products from snake oil salespeople.
Well hellooo to all those super scientific senior posters who don't seem to post on this topic anymore (one poster was named Science), and the others, I'd have to scroll back. One lady could control her blood pressure with meditation but couldn't seem to control her hoity toity ness. And one person had a double blind fetish. Where are you people to dissect these studies and put laypersons like me back in my place?
I think that clearing parasites out of multiple animal guts is HUGE. So then we should all be taking DE to keep our guts parasite free no?
Several of the DE sites say that DE only attracts the bad bacteria. What about our good bacteria. Won't DE remove that too? Aren't good bacteria positively charged too?
I would have thought so.Quote:
Several of the DE sites say that DE only attracts the bad bacteria. What about our good bacteria. Won't DE remove that too? Aren't good bacteria positively charged too?
Those sorts of claims sound like the typical over-hyped promotion of name-your-fashionable-food-fad of the moment.
I'm pretty sure our gut is well able to cope with dirt that's likely to be attached to foods eaten direct from the soil/ plant/ tree. Whether that soil/ clay/ other gritty or dirty stuff has any beneficial or dietary role to play is still in the air from my point of view.
As for getting rid of parasites and worms, afaik there are plant foods on every continent that people have used since forever to control or eliminate worms and other parasites. (Many of these are, in fact, simply purgatives that expel anything and everything from the gut or a combination of vermicide first, purgative second. There was a reason why the Victorians gave their children a weekly dose of castor oil or cod liver oil.)
Ddanimal, I can't thank you big enough for posting. I've been trying to find actual studies that pertain to humans as well as animals but just couldn't seem to find what I was looking for. I came to this website only to be disappointed to find a whole bunch of nothing until I saw your posts. Hard to argue with facts, right? Although I do see some trying lol - I appreciate your professionalism.
I have just read through approximately 2 pages of the four on DE. Not sure what I can or can't say except I have read most of what is being 'discussed' back and forth between for and against DE. Personally, when our 5 cats got fleas, (in a rental apt) and ear mites, these all disappeared with the use of DE. Lots of vacuuming is also involved. The fleas and mites, which are in the same family as spiders(forgive me if I mix up any scientific terms-I am just trying to explain to the best of my ability), we believe were and may still be living on the mice living in the walls. I did much research before using this as a treatment. Most chemical treatments won't kill the bugs in all of their stages, such as pupae and larval stages of the flea. The adult flea will die, if it hasn't built a resistance to this particular poison. DE only kills the fleas between stages and as adults, but is not poisonous. It does take a while to get rid off all the bugs because of this but it worked for us.
I have learned more of why it works externally, internally, for humans and pets, although not all pets or animals are included! There have been tests done that I have read about which are showing some conclusive evidence of the benefits of DE. Part of why it works internally, even for people is that it cleanses the mucus and buildup of toxins on the walls of the intestines and colon, which then allows better absorption of all important vitamins and minerals our bodies need.
It also works great as a scrub on a person's skin. I know at least one good website, but as I am not sure what I can do as a new member, I will not add it at this time. I guess I researched DE better than I realized because I knew most of the information and arguments regarding this powder which is considered a food grade supplement considered GRAS(Generally Recognized As Safe) by the FDA.
The differences in DE have to do if it is crystalline, as it is when heated(useful as a filter, NOT as a supplement), how well it is processed, and the amount of crystalline silica -which has been set by the World Health Organization at less than 2 percent-to be eligible to be considered food grade which contains silicon dioxide in an amorphous form.
As for any benefits of diatomaceous earth that are not approved by the EPA, FDA, or USDA, it is the same as any other supplement and based on personal experiences, finding good information regarding the product, having help from a trained, experienced nutritionist. And as I believe someone mentioned in a post that it can effect any individual a bit differently than another, which is the same as any prescription or over-the-counter medication.
I hope I haven't overstepped any bounds. I have found some information here which I feel I need to look into more deeply. I appreciate everyone's comments as it gave me different points of view of the picture as a whole. Thank You All.
I liked what you had to say as it is hard to argue with success. But I put flea collars on my dogs and they never had fleas or any other kind of bugs on them. Next I wouldn't put up with mice or rats in the house or walls.
What I find hard to believe is just when I thought it was safe not to think about DE anymore, this topic comes back like a bad penny.:mrgreen: