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  1. #1 No longer Christian 
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    Why?

    A whole host of reasons. For one, I noticed that most of the flaws in the Bible were virtually impossible to rationalize (and/or rationalizing them required a lot of intellectual dishonesty); I concluded that religions are man-made (for various reasons).

    I'm still theistic, though (but don't really care if God actually exists).

    Just not Christian or religious. I'd more readily identify with atheists/agnostics than with religious theists.

    Comments/questions welcome... that's why it's a discussion forum... ^^


    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  3. #2 Re: No longer Christian 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Why?

    A whole host of reasons. For one, I noticed that most of the flaws in the Bible were virtually impossible to rationalize (and/or rationalizing them required a lot of intellectual dishonesty); I concluded that religions are man-made (for various reasons).

    I'm still theistic, though (but don't really care if God actually exists).

    Just not Christian or religious. I'd more readily identify with atheists/agnostics than with religious theists.

    Comments/questions welcome... that's why it's a discussion forum... ^^
    Well done, you've made yourself employable.


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  4. #3  
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    Have you checked with Islam or Hindu? Maybe their scriptures are more coherent.

    If you don't care whether God exist, how can you still be a theist? I think by definition theist believes God exists.

    Or you may believe in God who only created physical laws with no subsequent intervention. Then you are a Deist.

    If you believe in God, but are not religious. Will your guiding principles be the same as those of atheist?
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    I'm pretty sure that if he is displeased with the religious culture provided by modern Christian denominations, he would have the same issues with Muslim and Hindu religions, if not a slew of additional issues!

    I as well am a Deist, though I have of yet to be presented with any convincing proof in my opinion that Jesus was NOT the Messiah, and since all of the prophecies concerning a Messiah in the Old Testament has been fulfilled by him, I still am open to the belief that He was who He claimed to be.

    However, I think some modern Christians have about as good an understanding of such matters of religion as a goldfish...Many of them miss most of the stuff they should be following, and follow most of the stuff that Jesus himself warned them to be wary of. Which is why I try to distance myself as much as possible from people such as them.

    I am of the belief that some muslims, hindus, buddhists, etc.. have a better understanding of what they are supposed to do, and follow more in line with biblical teachings, even though they do not follow the Bible as the source of their religious teachings, than alot of Christians do.
    "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
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  6. #5  
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    Welcome to the ranks! You mention some of the same reasons I moved away from theism. I have just gone one step further and made the leap to atheism by believing the premise of a god to be absolutely false, the purely scientific viewpoint being, IMO, agnosticism, as nothing should be discarded as absolutely impossible by a scientist's standards.

    So, are you having to deal with close friends or family that might deplore your move?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    Have you checked with Islam or Hindu? Maybe their scriptures are more coherent.

    If you don't care whether God exist, how can you still be a theist? I think by definition theist believes God exists.

    Or you may believe in God who only created physical laws with no subsequent intervention. Then you are a Deist.

    If you believe in God, but are not religious. Will your guiding principles be the same as those of atheist?
    Well, deism, as I know it (I may be wrong) holds that God has no interest in the universe. I think if a God really exists, it has an interest in its creation.

    Deists (I think) come to their conclusion based on reasoning. I don't think anyone can reason God into existence, so that's another reason I don't think 'deist' is an appropriate label for me. Agnostic theist works fine for me, though most religious people like to just group me with atheists. :/

    And yes, my 'guiding principles' are the same of those of an atheist (i.e. I make my own guiding principles). Like I said, I'd more readily identify with atheists than with religious theists.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo
    I'm pretty sure that if he is displeased with the religious culture provided by modern Christian denominations, he would have the same issues with Muslim and Hindu religions, if not a slew of additional issues!

    I as well am a Deist, though I have of yet to be presented with any convincing proof in my opinion that Jesus was NOT the Messiah, and since all of the prophecies concerning a Messiah in the Old Testament has been fulfilled by him, I still am open to the belief that He was who He claimed to be.

    However, I think some modern Christians have about as good an understanding of such matters of religion as a goldfish...Many of them miss most of the stuff they should be following, and follow most of the stuff that Jesus himself warned them to be wary of. Which is why I try to distance myself as much as possible from people such as them.

    I am of the belief that some muslims, hindus, buddhists, etc.. have a better understanding of what they are supposed to do, and follow more in line with biblical teachings, even though they do not follow the Bible as the source of their religious teachings, than alot of Christians do.
    I agree with you completely here. This is a good example of how some 'Christians' behave. And of course youtube figures such as glennreb.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    So, are you having to deal with close friends or family that might deplore your move?
    I told my mom and sister. Haven't told anyone else yet. I live with my aunt currently, and I definitely won't tell her until I officially move out (I'm in college now). There are also some fundies staying with us; I'm pretty sure they won't let it rest, so pretty much I'm pretending to be Christian (which sucks). I have to pretend to 'bless' my food; I have to pretend that I believe the Bible. At least I don't have to pretend to be Creationist... they're pretty tolerant of my acceptance of evolution, mainly because they don't think it affects my favorableness in God's eyes.

    It kinda sucks, but it's still way better than being blinded by delusion. I find there are many personal benefits to being non-religious. And at least my mom and sis accept me for who I am (my mom's kind of a skeptic herself, so...)

    Edit: oh, and my aunt hardly attends church, so I don't have to endure that horrible experience often.
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

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  10. #9  
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    I wondered why you were away a while. I personally followed the same path, the lonlieness felt awful so I prayed to Jesus for my faith back. But thats your choice and I'm not going to say anything against or for it.

    But it supports my theory on God.

    Increase in logic and rationality to God = Decrease in faith.

    Vice versa. Seems daft and what not but I get on fine, I got to rational and logical to God, now I don't question anything to do with my faith. Anyway good luck with your path ahead of you, I know it will be tough so good luck. You always know where comfort lies if you ever need it.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    Have you checked with Islam or Hindu? Maybe their scriptures are more coherent.

    If you don't care whether God exist, how can you still be a theist? I think by definition theist believes God exists.

    Or you may believe in God who only created physical laws with no subsequent intervention. Then you are a Deist.

    If you believe in God, but are not religious. Will your guiding principles be the same as those of atheist?
    Well, deism, as I know it (I may be wrong) holds that God has no interest in the universe. I think if a God really exists, it has an interest in its creation.

    Deists (I think) come to their conclusion based on reasoning. I don't think anyone can reason God into existence, so that's another reason I don't think 'deist' is an appropriate label for me. Agnostic theist works fine for me, though most religious people like to just group me with atheists. :/

    And yes, my 'guiding principles' are the same of those of an atheist (i.e. I make my own guiding principles). Like I said, I'd more readily identify with atheists than with religious theists.

    Well, they bunch alot of people into the Deist category who did believe that there was some level of intervention involved, such as George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, So I usually put myself into the same category. Truthfully I, and they, were more like Deists with a leaning towards Fideism.

    The following is not Theory, Fact, or have any basis as far as science is concerned. It is simply my philosophical and theological opinion.

    I believe God Created the Universe, and has an active interest in it, but I don't think God has hand-picked the vast majority of modern-day "prophets" or "priests" that currently exist, too many of these modern day "Christian" leaders can be found as false.

    I believe God sets the rules and laws of physics, and everything abides by those laws, and lets the Universe takes its course, but that God does ensure that certain things will happen as God desires, such as the formation of complex organic matter into living organisms. God's intervention in this matter cannot nor will it ever be proven, but the sheer odds against this occurrence lead me to believe that it was not purely by chance.

    I also believe God wants us to follow a moral compass of sorts that gives us a sense of right and wrong, and that we should choose what we know is right and abstain from what we know is wrong.

    I believe God does ensure the survival as a whole of his chosen people, to give us a viable and observable proof of God's protection and existence, I also believe that God was born, lived, and died among us, since there are too many connections that can be made with the life of Yeshua, tying him to the prophecies of the Old Testament, for me to simply brush aside, since the Bible has been proven to be one of the most ACCURATELY preserved historical documents to survive over the years, even though I do not believe it is 100% Divinely inspired.

    I also believe that, given the complexities of regions, geography, cultures, languages, beliefs, etc... that God does not "hate" or "punish" those who do not see as I do, if I believed that, We all should live under extreme doubt, because if that were the case, the inaccuracies we all most likely have concerning our understanding of God is too crowded by our upbringings for us to know the Truth, if God was a bigot and cared not about the inaccuracies and imperfections of the Human race, then who on earth could possibly ever be found worthy?

    I believe Yeshua existed as a way to grasp the attention of a few of us Humans, and that other religions have their own icons in order to give all of Humanity something we CAN sense with our physical sensors that succeeds in bringing our minds' attention, thoughts, and beliefs onto something that what we may possibly be incapable of observing with any of our 5 senses. They give us something our minds CAN comprehend that we otherwise would not ever be able to even remotely begin to rationalize through logical thought.

    These occurrences, I believe, does give us the ability to begin to logically accept the existence of a Supreme Being, even though our senses cannot detect a physical and seemingly more tangible piece of evidence.
    "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo
    The following is not Theory, Fact, or have any basis as far as science is concerned. It is simply my philosophical and theological opinion.

    I believe ...

    I believe...

    I also believe...

    I believe...

    I also believe...

    I believe...


    These occurrences, I believe, does give us the ability to begin to logically accept the existence of a Supreme Being, even though our senses cannot detect a physical and seemingly more tangible piece of evidence.
    There is nothing logical to accept when each of your claims begins thusly. It is most likely that which you want to believe is true.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo
    The following is not Theory, Fact, or have any basis as far as science is concerned. It is simply my philosophical and theological opinion.

    I believe ...

    I believe...

    I also believe...

    I believe...

    I also believe...

    I believe...


    These occurrences, I believe, does give us the ability to begin to logically accept the existence of a Supreme Being, even though our senses cannot detect a physical and seemingly more tangible piece of evidence.
    There is nothing logical to accept when each of your claims begins thusly. It is most likely that which you want to believe is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo
    The following is not Theory, Fact, or have any basis as far as science is concerned. It is simply my philosophical and theological opinion.
    Exactly, I came to my opinion, and this, in my opinion, logically rationalizes it for me, whether you find it logical or not is none of my concern, that's what is nice about the religious section of this forum.
    "It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain
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  14. #13  
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    scientsphilos.... wrote
    Well, deism, as I know it (I may be wrong) holds that God has no interest in the universe. I think if a God really exists, it has an interest in its creation.
    He may be interested, but not intervening. Like a bird watcher.
    Deists (I think) come to their conclusion based on reasoning. I don't think anyone can reason God into existence,
    Scientist reason quark exists, but he does not reason quark into existence.

    By the way, shouldn't you change your name in this forum?
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo

    Exactly, I came to my opinion, and this, in my opinion, logically rationalizes it for me, whether you find it logical or not is none of my concern, that's what is nice about the religious section of this forum.
    Attempting to logically rationalize a fairy tale does not make it any less a fairy tale.

    It should be a concern, your concern, as it is a serious failure in logic and rationalization.
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    Well, I've already said that this has no theory attached since it is just my belief, but if you insist on calling it a fairy tail I offer you this challenge, let me ask you to debunk some of my beliefs then. I won't give you an impossible one like my belief that God created the laws of physics, so let me start with this one.

    My belief that in our instincts, we humans have a sense of when someone has wronged us. This sense that someone has caused harm to you in some way, allows for our brains to make the not-so-difficult leap that if you feel wronged, that maybe other people will feel wronged if you do the same thing to them, giving all humanity a sense of right and wrong that goes deeper than just some indoctrinated and learned behavior of what is right and what is wrong. A "Moral Compass" if you will.

    Disprove for me if you will my belief that, whether gained through evolution or not (since I believe God, in designing the laws of physics that allow for evolution to occur, does not automatically be disproved with the discovery of evolution) we humans have a built-in sense of what is right and wrong.
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  17. #16  
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    That is not correct Supernatendo. I do not have a built in right and wrong or any type of moral compass. The way I see things, is that murder and war is a type of "barbarian activity" while prospering, even if sacrifices must be made, is advancement and sophistication.

    Most christians hate stem cell research.. I believe whatever is neccessary to save million's of lives down the road should be legal to look into. The pope saying that it is disgusting and it's killing lives is also allowing the million's of people with diseases or needing different organ's to be put to death. He would rather a child who has not been born yet get a chance, than a human who has a family already with people who love and cherish him, and that human is put to death because of the pope's selfish "religious beliefs."
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo

    Disprove for me if you will my belief that, whether gained through evolution or not (since I believe God, in designing the laws of physics that allow for evolution to occur, does not automatically be disproved with the discovery of evolution) we humans have a built-in sense of what is right and wrong.
    Humans have evolved a moral compass through trial and error, coupled with the 'first brain's' instinct for survival. We are genetically altruistic, but we also want to survive.

    So, we take those concepts, apply logic and reason allowing us to make choices, hence you'll find people will choose to save others but will lose their own lives in the process.

    Boiled down, it becomes a simple concept, to not do intentional harm to others.

    **Many gods were hurt, maimed or destroyed in the making of this post.**
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  19. #18  
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    verzen and q, if I came over to where you lived, and stole something from you, would you not feel wronged? I understand that the very understanding of right and wrong is something we evolved. But why? No other complex system in the universe has a "will" to survive, why then does life go against everything else?
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  20. #19 Re: No longer Christian 
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    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    Why?

    A whole host of reasons. For one, I noticed that most of the flaws in the Bible were virtually impossible to rationalize (and/or rationalizing them required a lot of intellectual dishonesty); I concluded that religions are man-made (for various reasons).

    I'm still theistic, though (but don't really care if God actually exists).

    Just not Christian or religious. I'd more readily identify with atheists/agnostics than with religious theists.

    Comments/questions welcome... that's why it's a discussion forum... ^^
    Well done, you've made yourself employable.
    bah, i'm an atheist/agnostic and I disapprove of this message
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  21. #20  
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    Holy Jurassic Park thread.
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  22. #21 Re: No longer Christian 
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientstphilosophertheist
    I concluded that religions are man-made (for various reasons).
    i think that you have made the right choice... i have a few personal experiences to back up this point...

    basically religion.... its good while ur a little kid... but around age 12-14 most teens generally go "i was going to this because?" and stop going to church...
    if humans didnt exist, neither would religion- my friend said that and i have to agree with him... but these are just shared points of views....
    Feel free to make your own religious preferences
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