Thread: Best Jobs

What are the best jobs in science/engineering? Let's say in about 10-15 years. If you can' think of any, then what are the best jobs in general in the present?

Salary, level of rigorousness, enjoyment, etc.

Originally Posted by Infinitism

What are the best jobs in science/engineering? Let's say in about 10-15 years. If you can' think of any, then what are the best jobs in general in the present?

Salary, level of rigorousness, enjoyment, etc.

String mensuration.

This involves figuring out how long is a piece of string. If you can do that you can answer your own question. :wink:

Korean stem cell guru.

Well, the job becomes a bit of a drag once the world discovers you are faking data, but till that moment it is a blast.

you don't have to take the Korean literal. There are still plenty of these guys around and they are not based in Korea.

Just make something up with lots of complicated and confusing unintelligible data, throw in the phrase 'climate change' and then apply for research funding.

I wish it was that easy.

I do use "stem cells", "innovation" and "regeneration" of course in my applications for that purpose.

Well as for science surely being a forum moderator must be the best job considering some are under the belief they are Gods.

nah.

gave up being a mod at that other forum, because it is just all fucked up.

Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey

I wish it was that easy.

I do use "stem cells", "innovation" and "regeneration" of course in my applications for that purpose.

I hear the new buzzword is "proteomics".

Originally Posted by Infinitism

What are the best jobs in science/engineering? Let's say in about 10-15 years. If you can' think of any, then what are the best jobs in general in the present?

Salary, level of rigorousness, enjoyment, etc.

Go into engineering, there is no work in straight physics that pays any money. Civil or mechanical engineering, or depending on where you live whatever one is best. In Canada the government will throw money at you if you will go into mining engineering .

^^He said it. engineering is the light at the end of the tunnel

P.S. engineers are in demand over here too, which means for an engineering degree, we too get a load of grants and stuff, which brings our tuition fee payments down considerably compared to others

the Medical and Health Science field is actually flourishing right now..
How about Neurology and Engineering?
Nanobiotechnology and Cyberkinetics?

Bioinformatics is going to be hot for a long time. RNAi, gene therapy, nanoengineering should all be huge too. Just pick something you like and have fun with it!

We had the industrial revolution, the technological revolution is on it's way, and then the next frontier is biological revolution, the most complex frontier of them all.

Originally Posted by paralith

We had the industrial revolution, the technological revolution is on it's way, and then the next frontier is biological revolution, the most complex frontier of them all.

I think the impacts of nanotechnology and robotics are going to be far greater than that of bio. They will also be the ones to show up earlier in the future.

Originally Posted by Infinitism

Originally Posted by paralith

We had the industrial revolution, the technological revolution is on it's way, and then the next frontier is biological revolution, the most complex frontier of them all.

I think the impacts of nanotechnology and robotics are going to be far greater than that of bio. They will also be the ones to show up earlier in the future.

I never said anything about degree of impact. That's kind of hard to judge, anyway. I was just talking about order And like I said, first the technological, then the biological.

As if we're going to talk about degree of impact, then I think biological will be quite big, especially if we can significantly increase the human lifespan. Things like nanotechnology will most likely be used to accomplish such a goal, but a greater understanding of biology will be required to actually utilize the technology in such a way.

Another intense area of research with many applications at the moment is 'finite element analysis'. It has applications in mechanics, electromechanics, fluid dynamics (CFD), solid state device simulation and other electronics, as well as medical simulations too, I believe (modelling blood flow etc).

Nanotechnology. Is that a hype again? It was already a few decades ago.

If you want a future study management or something. Stay out of science or anything that smells like science.

Haha, Why are you always so jaded in job topics spurious?!?!

Just saw this article today:

New data show strong labor market for scientists and engineers
http://www.labspaces.net/view_news_c...hp?newsID=4574

Because I am in the business.

I am too, maybe I'm just too young and optimistic...

probably. I have seen too many lives destroyed by science. Too much disillusionment. Too much people treated like dirt. I have seen too many people literally disappear. They left without a trace.

I'm sure there is currently an increase in junior positions in science in the USA. But that is only because of terrorism. US science was build on foreign scientists, mainly PhD students and postdocs. Currently their influx has been hampered by the new laws.

So you see an increase in positions.

Doesn't mean they will spit you out if you reach the end of the junior career track. Because there aren't any positions created higher up.

I'm still hanging in, but today I talked once again to a postdoc who is thinking about quiting science. Because he is simply fed up with the crap. The usual story.

Percentage of friends in science who have dropped out of science: 80% (low estimate).

Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey

probably. I have seen too many lives destroyed by science. Too much disillusionment. Too much people treated like dirt. I have seen too many people literally disappear. They left without a trace.

I'm sure there is currently an increase in junior positions in science in the USA. But that is only because of terrorism. US science was build on foreign scientists, mainly PhD students and postdocs. Currently their influx has been hampered by the new laws.

So you see an increase in positions.

Doesn't mean they will spit you out if you reach the end of the junior career track. Because there aren't any positions created higher up.

I'm still hanging in, but today I talked once again to a postdoc who is thinking about quiting science. Because he is simply fed up with the crap. The usual story.

Percentage of friends in science who have dropped out of science: 80% (low estimate).

Ya and that's not taking into account the 50-70% who start a bachelor and never finish it. Although, a graduate degree in general can help you get a job in other fields. If you have a Masters in science you can apply for the managerial training program for the Government of Canada and they guarantee you a position as a manager at a government office with a starting salary of 50,000 a year. I would take that job in a second .

Edit: Lol actually I just realized that most people do finish their bachelor in normal programs, that is just my personal experience as an Immunology major, they culled the vast majority of us in the sophomore year. We started 200 in the program, and we're down to like 90. All competing for the precious 20-30 graduate positions in the department >.<

expect 2 to 5 of those graduate students to remain in science.

Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey

probably. I have seen too many lives destroyed by science. Too much disillusionment. Too much people treated like dirt. I have seen too many people literally disappear. They left without a trace.

I'm sure there is currently an increase in junior positions in science in the USA. But that is only because of terrorism. US science was build on foreign scientists, mainly PhD students and postdocs. Currently their influx has been hampered by the new laws.

So you see an increase in positions.

Doesn't mean they will spit you out if you reach the end of the junior career track. Because there aren't any positions created higher up.

I'm still hanging in, but today I talked once again to a postdoc who is thinking about quiting science. Because he is simply fed up with the crap. The usual story.

Percentage of friends in science who have dropped out of science: 80% (low estimate).

I am completely oblivious to the business of science. Can you enlighten me spuriousmonkey? How exactly uh, does science do this? Destroying lives?

Modern science practices dictate that the greatest assholes and manipulators will be be most successful Groupleaders. This is because playing nice in the field will not get you any high impact publications. And without high impact publications there will not be any fat grants.

Do the math on that one.


Now take that in the equation and throw in a pool of workers with no or little rights. In fact, a few people actually have the ability to destroy the careers of all others. And they do.

Ok..do the math.

Throw in the fact that the same few people decide on who is getting the grants. oh yes. Tasty isn't it. They tend to like giving grants to each other.

ok, do the math.

Throw in the fact that a few people dominate each field. And they don't do this by playing nice most of the time.


ok, do the math.

Did you notice btw that so far the average grunt in science so far hasn't had much influence on his career?

Throw in the fact then that there are only a few academic positions. And they are getting less each year.

No do the math on what that will do to the average mindset. Ok, you might be young, but one day you might actually want to have a family. And you have just been studying already for 10 to 15 years for this.

Ok, throw in the fact that science is more and more focusing (thanks to the lobbying of certain people) on major research institutes. That is a concentration of all research money to a few topics and few groups. You might guess who is behind all of it.

Of course there are no permanent positions in these innovative institutes of science that are popping up all over the world. It's usually the heidelberg system or something comparable. You get in for 5 years, you get an evaluation, and you stay on for another 5 years or are kicked out. Not that there is an alternative place of work for you after this of course anywhere, except lectures, which basically kills your research aspirations. You might even think that this is a great system! Only the best survive! Unfortunately that is only the paper version. For example during an evaluation here the big two decided that we need one group less in the institute. Obviously for the reason that then more money flows into the big groups, so that they can do 'better' science. The evaluation committee is of course selected by the big people in that very same institute. And guess what, the evualuation committee in his wisdom decided that the institute needs one less group. Of course that is all very nice, but that very same person that they now kicked out collected for them half a million in research grants. Thank you and goodbye. This person ends up as a lecturer. No research money worth mentioning any more. All very awkward. Mind you, we are now not even talking about some student here. We are talking end of the career tract people. Being fucked over is endemic to any political institution.

Oh the countless times I have heard about and seen PhD students being fucked over in that final phase. Their PhD being blocked by their supervisor for whatever reason. Never any valid reason. And then they are left floating.

Oh the countless post docs I have seen put on impossible projects. Failure is always their fault, although they never even came up with the project.

In my last 9 years as a research scientist I worked 8 years without a contract. I could have been kicked out any day. Maybe that is normal in the USA for instance but this couldn't happen for regular employees in this nation.

Are we getting the picture already?

Most people in science depend on a few people. There is no protection in the end. At most stages in your career as a research scientist a few people can completely destroy you. As in exit science.

Of course, if all is going well everything seems fine. It isn't until the shit hits the fan that you realize how deep the shit can be. And in my short career I have seen a lot of shit happening to people.

I have seen many people happily quit.

I have friends that quit just before defending their PhD. They could end it since they have all the requirements, but choose not to. Because they had enough.

I have friends who have moved from group to group. In the end never finishing.

Yesterday I have seen a postdoc being assassinated in a journal club because he stepped on some wrong foots, not because his presentation was awful.

I've seen actual postdocs disappear without a trace after they ran into trouble.

I've seen PhD students abandoned by the supervisors. The most recent even being a whole group being abandoned so that the boss could get a political function in Brussels. Obviously this was heralded as a major success.

I have overheard the big people in charge talk freely about PhD students and postdocs: they are just meat. They do not count on any level.

etc etc.

In the end many pick a regular job. They have to deal with shit there too, but they have benefits and some protection.

end rant.

This situation and attitude has been the same within science from the start in America and Britain. I am more familiar with British history of science, but from what i have seen there is little difference in the institutions and their attitudes.

In Britain for example the first scientific organization began in 1831 with the British Association for the Advancement of Science. This association was not set up by a group of white coated boffins. It's founders were a close-knit group of elite Oxbridge dons and their rich London allies, who channeled funds among friends to ensure that science took the direction congenial to the Church of England.

The same situation occurred across the Atlantic during the late 19th century.

Little has changed since then. It is still a 'freemasonry' type of institution with funds decided and kept within a particular group of people.

Scientists are hard nosed and extremely competitive. They are always jealous of one another and safe guard their research and findings with their lives in case anyone else should publish a paper on their research and reach the 'finishing line' before they do.

They treat students as fodder giving them little knowledge or insight into their research because of this very reason. They will stab you in the back and trash your career should they feel slightly threatened by you.

An intelligent capable student will have them sweating and wringing their hands. And it is more likely the smartest of the students who will have their careers most threatened.

They don't want anyone pipping their post or treading on their feet. They intend to see their names at the top of research papers not some PHD student.

Because it's all about reputation in science and getting fat hands on fat funds. It always has been and seems it always will be! Because the funds and grants are dished out and recommended by each other to each other and so this breeds an institution based on brown nose, backstabbing with genuine hard working students being ignored or cast out.

Established scientists are terrified of the up and coming crop of new researchers because they might make the discoveries that they have spent years trying to get to.

If you thought science was an atmosphere of learning and sharing knowledge for the sake of the advancement in human knowledge and research, think again!

Better to get your foot in and make the most of what you've learned before you get thrown off and then set yourself up in your own lab brought by second hand equipment and become a fringe scientists! (some of the best discoveries have been made by fringe scientists)

It's a shame, but there you go! Just be careful and do your research on what to work for and especially who to work with.

Interesting fact - The term 'scientist' was first coined by Rev. William Whewell at a British Association meeting in 1833. Prior to this scientists called themselves 'philosophers' with physics called 'natural philosophy'.

Engineering is different, you get to use science, use your hands, and in most cases have a secure job and a good pay....sometimes a VERY good pay.

So you're all focusing on academia. There are other sectors where science is used, for example, government, industry, and non-profits. I worked at the USDA for 3 years in undergrad and they were always looking to fill new positions for lead scientists. I have no experience with industry, but I can imagine its pretty cut throat, but you don't really have to worry about funding, just producing results. Non-profits or consulting are also another option that don't rely solely on outside money and granting agencies for funding.

So spurious, if you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you do? Are you a PhD scientist who has been shat on? Do you work at a large or a small institution? I'm just trying to understand your perspective here because I don't really see it.

Engineering in general isn't academic. It's really science with an application, and for that reason involves hands on practice, with government and private jobs available in many different industries. Take civil engineering for an example.

Originally Posted by h2so4hurts

So spurious, if you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you do? Are you a PhD scientist who has been shat on? Do you work at a large or a small institution? I'm just trying to understand your perspective here because I don't really see it.

Moi? Done my PhD in one of those innovative competitive high resource research institutes. Abroad. Not in my own country. Did a short post doc in the US in a smaller lab. It was quite a nice group. Very focused. Excellent research. Back in one of those innovative competitive high resource research institutes and currently on three year personal grant. A luxury.


I'm sure you don't understand my perspective. You probably never been near competitive research.

Biotech is bullshit in the country I am currently located. There is one real biotech company, the others are merely distributors. A boom in biotech has been predicted for two decades now. Lots of money has been pumped into it. In fact when I look outside my window I see a mostly empty superdeluxe building put up for just that. It just can't be filled.

I've seen the talks of leaders of industry that jobs will be created and available.

Then you look at the stats which simply say that each year more and more PhD students are trained for the same amount of jobs. That's because having more PhD students looks good on the statistics (indicator of how well science is doing) and you get rid of them after 4 years with no responsibility to follow up on them.

I don't really see why I should pretend all is well, when everybody knows it is a pile of shit.

I happen to like this pile of shit, but it doesn't make the stink any less.

So excuse me if I refrain from following popular propaganda material and just stick to reality.

Interestingly, just heard about another post doc being dumped tonight. We all knew it was coming. We were just waiting for when. He rubbed the wrong people. He got good data at the moment. Didn't help him.

In 10-15 years?

Building sea defences, flood barriers and border fences might be big, so civil engineering could be a good choice.

Spurious thanks for your rant, well appreciated. I feel like I had a glimpse of corrupt science now.

I'm not trying to fill the forum with "unrealistic" perspectives, I just don't think science is as terrible as the picture you paint. There's no need to discourage others just because your experience has been a bad one.

I'm talking about what is happening to most people.

I'm actually one of the survivors. Not the roadkill.