May 16th, 2007, 11:59 PM
To whom it may concern, I would like the opportunity to interact with you on this topic in positive way, if you are interested.
I could also start a topic called the department of negitive posibilities, and then we could discuss how it can't happen as well, but both mind maps should be geared toward a result one way or another.
Please fill free to reply and thank you for your time,
Tim
huh ? you lost me here
what's the subject of this thread supposed to be ? out-of-body experiences ?
Is it just me or does there seem to be an increasing amount of pointless posting at the moment ?
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After googling some of the words in his post ive found out that it has something to do with contacting people who are having out of body experiences and/or contacting the dead.
Do I smell spam?
Come on people, articulate your thread topics! I have all the respect for those struggling with a new language, but very little patience for sloppy and lazy.
Cat1981, I agree.
I once had an out of body experience, and I came away from that experience, with the feeling that I was still having electrical thoughts, just like I am having now, and if that is the case that OBE are real and that some of them, if not all of them continue in the afterlife, then why not try and explore it more, with machines like BrainGate, that are designed to use electrical thought to operate machines or computers.
what do you think?
Thank you,
Tim
You don't want to know what I think.Originally Posted by Tim Brewer
Thank you scientstphilosophertheist,
You went to all that trouble to tell me, that I don't want to hear what you have to say, either you just like attention or you must be bigger introvert than I am.
Thank you,
Tim
Tell you what. You nix yourself, we'll watch, and when we get back together we'll compare notes.
anyway, what do you mean by "electrical thoughts" ?
He probably is trying to refer to his conscious in terms of neurons firing.
sounds lilke his neurons are firing blanks ...He probably is trying to refer to his conscious in terms of neurons firing.
The wheel, it spins, but the hamster, he is dead.
Several people have commented here, and elsewher in the forum, about the poor quality of posts. Reacting, as most of you have done here, to posts that are badly presented is a sure way of adding to that total of poor posts.
Let us take a closer look. Out of body experiences are a real phenomenom. They are also an intrinsically interesting phenomenom, since they potentially shed light upon the nature of consciousness and the workings of the brain.
Here we have a poster who has actually experienced such an event. It has had a profound effect upon him, as is often (nearly always) the case. Now, rather than using this as an opportunity to learn directly from someone who has had this bizarre experience you respond as if he was mentally ill, or of subnormal intelligence. Shame on you.
Granted his opening post was vague, his subsequent clarification had some odd use of the English language, but on a science forum we should be concerned with the concepts more than how they are presented.
Tim, before we enter into more detailed, but general discussion, could you tell us some of the particulars about your own experience?
I think it's a little misleading to declare absolutely that out of body experiences are a real phenomenon without a little clarification. Yes the experiences are real but whether or not the label "out of body experience" carries any degree of truth is, to say the least, questionable.
Yeah, I guess out-of-body experiences can be enlightening. The last time I had an out-of-body experience, it was pretty enlightening. It told me "dude, drink less beer!"
Yes, I welcome the clarification. I had mentally placed quotation marks around the phrase 'out of body experience' rather than 'out of body' experience.
The experiences undoubtedly occur. The probability is that they are not truly 'out of body'.
[The phrase usage is similar to that of UFOs. UFOs certainly exist, unfortunately many people take the acronym to mean alien spacecraft.]
Dear Marnixr, I believe electrical thought goes all the way to the electrical atom, because all things on earth is made up of elctrical atoms, and to use some of your stuff Ophiolite, scientist believe atoms only make up a very small % of our universe.
I will assume tha scientist could agree on the fact, that atoms hold energy, and that evergy can not be destroyed, it can only change form.
Your thought is energy, and all energy make heat. Heat rises, just like an OBE, and when near death people have them, they float out of their body, because their mortal body temiture has probally dropped, Your OBE atoms at this point, falls in line to it's perportion to everything else around it at that time.
I am sorry when I go into my right brain, I throw some of it on the table, and I will feel free to talk about any of it, as long as we are not playing ego games.
The difference between knowing it all and getting it, is listening, interacting, focusing, analyzing, changing, evolving creating mind maps that can expand as far as pie will allow.
I'm sorry about the grammer, but I day dreamed through school, and I would rather record my thoughts in a dump, that write a good book.
They say that we have 40,000 thoughts a day on average, and that anyone of them have the potential to settle this topic once and for all, but it does not happen. I believe we could look back at history and see why that is.
Example take Thomas Edison for example, he was probally better at grammer than me, he was probally good at everything better than me.
I would think that he had some good thoughts through out his years.
Some people might question why he did some of the things he did, like building houses totally out of cement, sure that don't sound pratical, but those types of houses could of came in handy in New Orleans.
Dear Ophiolite, I would think that you would be interested in the history of all this, like the fact that Thomas Edison was qouated as saying believing in the possibility of communicating with afterlife. Now he also said he will not build anything, if he could not sell it
The President at the time, made fun of the idea of communicating with afterlife in the public, and since BrainGate has only been out since 2005, I find it very hard to believe that the have really focused on it the right way.
If I was talking about widgets, everybody would be glad to tell me all about the widet, but when you bring up this topic, a topic tha has never been brought up before in our history, please feel free to see how many topics come up o this topic on the Internet, you will find only one, and you can be a part of it, but you have to leave the I know everything, I am o much better than you attitude atthe door, and bring in the I learn somehing new every day mind set, and then we can get some where.
I am sorry I got off of topic many times and thank you for reading my electrical thoughts.
My goal in the future is to explain my way of thinking like that guy explains math on the show "Numbers". I know I have a long way to go, but I am trying. I actually do better on my days of, when I have more of my 40,000 thoughts.
Thank you,
Tim
Aren't out of body experiences dangerous? Don't they become incontrollable after a while; and at that point the person starts cutting themselves, etc. to 'get themselves back together', so to speak?
P.S. Ophiolite, you're right. I just thought it was one of those usual dumba**es who post crap for no discernible reason...
Good question?
I don't like to do pain, I feel it is a waste of time.
I once heard at one time, that most OBE people kept to them self's after their experience, because they did not want to be seen as a nut, probally a lot like those pilots that see lightning above clouds, not until it cam epublic, did more pilots talk about it.
If I have to be the person who gets attacked, for wanting to talk about this topic more, then so be it.
Where do atoms live? In the invisible force, and where is the invisible force? Anywhere you find atoms.
Now science would lead you to believe that the invisible force is explained on the surface, but even Einstein would tell you if he could, that this could not be the case on a much smaller scale.
Scientist might know what electric is made out of, they might know what atoms are made out of,
They do not know what is inside electric, no more than they know what I am thinking right now.
Everything on earth gives off clues, we just have to pay better attention to them.
There is a right and a left to everything on earth, if I am wrong on this, please inform me of what that might be.
Thank you,
Tim
Nice to see you still sticking with it, Tim. :wink:
It is true that Einstein had difficulties with understanding the fundamentals of foundation elements; what was in atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons. Quantum theory had just seen its birth really when he had not yet begun working on the unified theory (TOE). Oddly enough, even though Einstein himself spent many hours discussing physics with Werner Heisenberg, they never met on the ideas.
Getting back onto subject, though, I think that the most current attempts to understand the fundamental laws of the universe, is string theory. The idea that everything, even the basic properties of electrons and protons, is made up of tiny elements (strings).
Of course even with string theory, you are still left with one undeniable question: "What are the strings?"
I don't think enough people contemplate how bizarre the universe really is. Its existence flies in the face of logic. If we continue thinking of our universe in the same logic, well...it's turtles all the way down...
Good thoughts Wolf,
Here is something that I think is very interesting, if you want to make your kids smarter.
http://www.thepsychictimes.com/articles/atwater.htm
Thank you,
Tim
to the best of my knowledge atoms are electrically neutral, it's ions that are electrically charged
i always feel uneasy when people make forced analogies
remember the latin quote "omnis comparatio claudicat" (all comparisons fail at some point) : it's easy to forget that you're dealing with an analogy and not with the real thing + make the analogy meaningless by overstretching it
Good thoughts Marnixr,
I went back and read some of the stuff again at
http://www.mkaku.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1076
these guys wrote some really good stuff!
Thank you,
Tim
I apologise Tim for our responses to your opening post, but at the time there was many post around the forum that seemed to only be there to amuse the poster, yours appeared at first to be one.
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I do have two question though. First, how will this Brain Gate help in understanding OBE's, perhaps i have the wrong website or have not thought it through, but a sensor planted into the brain to read signals and transmit them to a computer? Secondly, when people have a NDE they usually have had some sort of brain damage as the result of a lack of oxygen. This would help to explain the extra creativity, people keeping themselves to themselves and the experiences such as OBE at the time. Is there any sort of evidence in suport of a OBE that you know of outside of peoples first hand accounts ?
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Welcome to the forum BTW.
If we are discussing OBEs:
I had some as a child, when I was very ill. I dislike remembering them profoundly. The experiences were not unpleasant at the time
I was aware of my suroundings, but unable to respond; it was if I was in dream-state paralysis, but conscious.
I had the dream of the barrier/light/welcoming. It was not the classic tunnel/bright light/loved ones at the other end, but had the same basic elements.
I also experienced a spatial ... dissonance? I viewed my surrondings from an angle that was impossible from my physical position. I felt the sensation of returning to my body.
As a child, I was of a strongly analytical bent. I noted the difference in the angle of my view.
Then I felt the shift in perspective when my mother came into my room to check on me ...
This is very difficult to discuss or describe.
[These childhood experiences, and some knowledge of scientific history, is why I have so little patience with poster who are convinced we can prove all that is worth knowing.]
But if you put more effort into expressing your thoughts, they will be accorded more respect.I'm sorry about the grammer, but I day dreamed through school, and I would rather record my thoughts in a dump, that write a good book.
I expect my nearly incoherent description of OBE will be completely disregarded.
Good thoughts J,
That is quite the opposite to one of your last remarks, I welcome anything under this topic.
Please fill free to express yourself anyway you like.
Thr first wet dream I ever had was also unpleasent and unexpected as well, and at that time, I didn't see a need to talk about it, lucky for me, other people did, and I don't know about you, but it was also the start of something new as well.
I do not have all the qustions or the answers as well, and maybe I have not found he best way to explain it as wll, but you have to give me a liitle effort for trying.
Thank you,
Tim
where did this come from? im interested, very, to see your views on this right/left idea. what is the point of a statement like this?
a.l.
Dear Cat1981,
The sensor is planted to get to the signal of existing human patients.
Afterlife out of body people change form with the energy they are provided, a form not yet detected by humans.
This situation creates even other problems when you add other problems on top of it.
Example, if you want to call somebody as a human you have all type of options at your finger tips, but afterlife has no options, because we can't comperhend the possibility to begin with, and I would agree, if it was not for the fact that so much activity goes on with the structure of air to begin with, if it was air and a few other things that would be one thing, but when you take in concideration the invisible force, and electric connected to everything, that leavesopen a window, not just for humans, but any creature that has electrical thought.
In other words, it might be very crowded out there, so the signal that might be recieved, could be contaminated in some ways.
all this is speculation, but you aways have to expect the worst, so the worst nee comes.
Reaching afterlife, might take some creative thinking on our part, just try on your own to try and contact a celiberty, you would probally have to e created in tha effort as well.
Example,
They say that only about 3% of the universe is made up of atome, the rest is made up of dark matter or some other name they want to give it, but regardless what that is,it is still might be a safe haven for a satelite to carry a BrainGate, so the compitition is not as competive as it is here on Earth. That would be a creative solution, if you are looking at worst senerio's.
Think of BrainGate like the first computer, it is only the begening of many modifications, but always thinking of the OBE afterlife as the main future customer.
If you were trained on BrainGate, it had your history in it's data base, plus a password, just like you have to use to get on this site, you also know where the machine will be located, if you find you do need to use it as a back up plan, then you will have experience, and confidence, and a plan to try and do something that has never been tried before.
I would like the fact that of knowing that so many patients have been trained on the machine, and tha they might be able to accomplish something, mainly on there own, because they have some type of tool pointed at their attempts.
Thank you,
Tim
Good question AtakesLehpargio,
Besides the fact, that knowbody has given me an example of anything that does not have a right and a left side to it, leads me to think that the only way my thoughts could be possible, is to let the inside of something bring out what we are looking for, and the only way that I know to do that is to give it the tools it needs. I believe that all things are made up of measurable properties; now we have a starting point.
I believe some feel afterlife moves around in air, just like a fish does in water, but If that is the case and it might very well be, at least we have a fish finder looking for them, what are we doing for us?
Everybody does have their own experiences, and even if I met you at the atom level, I still could not get inside our thoughts, as you could not get into mind.
We are very good at idenifying things we can see, but we seam to have a problem with things that we can not see.
Sure here is so much that we do not know, but to cop out and say they must go somewhere else is nothing more than an assumption at best and nothing more.
A sign of how far the science of neuroprosthetics has come is that most of these difficulties are now engineering challenges, rather than problems of principle. In applauding this valuable work, it is worth noting that it was made possible by two of the bêtes noires of modern biology: commercial interests and animal research.
We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.
We have all to gain if we have an open mind to the possibilities
Thank you for listening to my thoughts,
Tim
----- Original Message -----From: Jeff Wagg, James Randi Educational Foundation
To: Tim Brewer ; Alison Smith
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: Communications
I don't know what "advance thinking and action driven electrical thought out of body afterlife people" is or are.
Are you saying you can make the contact buzzer work without touching it?
Jeff Wagg
JREF
On 5/20/07, Tim Brewer <tbrewer003@woh.rr.com> wroteear Jeff Wagg,
*It is not a buzzer, but a light that comes on,*and that is only because I have only tried it with a light, but I suppose you could set it up to be used with a buzzer as well, and yes, I have had it work before, I just didn't think you were concerned about past events with*my experiments, so I tried not to bring that up.Science base their input in the fact that energy can not be made, destroyed, it can only*change form, so with that being the case. I want to prove that humans after they die, do have the ability to contact us through devises like this, but it can only work if we can educate them first on this*possibility. I once watched**one of your challenges were*a man tried to prove that he could alter a compass with thought alone, I would like to think my challenge is better, just because it is based on the fact that I do not even have to be anywhere near the machine when it works the way I say it will work. I would like the opportunity to have a monitor near by, only as a way to continue to send messages to the afterlife, as instructional information only.**
Please feel free to ask more questions if you would like.*Thank you,Tim*
I'm not accepting anything, I just wanted to be clear on what your claim was. You may apply now, and if you meet the criteria, your claim will be accepted.
Jeff Wagg
JREF
Thank you Jeff Wagg,*I appreciate your help in this matter, and now I will start getting things in order to be in a position to meet the criteria, and the challenge as well.*Thank you,Tim
This whole thing sounds woo to me. There's a simple experiment to conduct regarding OBEs - plant an object out of sight of the subject (preferably in a place where only a person than can see it if he/she floating near the ceiling, since that's a frequent component in OBE/NDE experiences) and let the subject describe it.
Anybody pass a test like this where the results were irrefutable and the evaluators unbiased? I'm thinking "no."
Tim Brewer, is there a reason we haven't heard of this amazing evidence of an after-life? If/when you respond, remember the plural of anecdote is not data.
Dear Steve H, thank you for your comments on this topic.
The only problem about putting something up by the ceiling on any given day is the fact that someone would accuse you of tampering with the information by the ceiling, and I do not want to be brought into that type of activity, and to find somebody on the spur of the moment to have a natural out of body experience is not easy to do. I do not want to use somebody who can just have one at will, because I am not 100% sure that those are 100% true.
My ultimate goal is to bring attention to this topic with positive results, so we might have access to tools such as BrainGate, so we can try and reach even bigger goals in the future, like communicationg with future out of body people in a way that can be measured better.
This type of posibility goes back to at least Thomas Edison, who believed at that time that it was possible to communicate with afterlife people, but he would not build anything if he did not think he could sell it, and at the time he thought it was possible, the President at the time may fun of he posibility.
If you would like to know more about this topic, feel free to look it up on the Internet under this topic name.
Thank you,
Tim
This isn't a valid refutation. The thing is, to qualify the concept of an OBE essence (whether it's a "soul," "astral body," or whatever) you'd have provide more than anecdotal evidence for it. That's the way it is. My hypothetical experiment isn't even direct evidence for an OBE, but it is your best first-step hope for attaining credibility. Fears of test-tampering sound like typical woo excuses and any OBE non-performance is your problem, I'm not the one trying to sell it.Until you can provide convincing evidence to the contrary, this is nothing more than spam.My ultimate goal is to bring attention to this topic with positive results, so we might have access to tools such as BrainGate, so we can try and reach even bigger goals in the future, like communicationg with future out of body people in a way that can be measured better.
This type of posibility goes back to at least Thomas Edison, who believed at that time that it was possible to communicate with afterlife people, but he would not build anything if he did not think he could sell it, and at the time he thought it was possible, the President at the time may fun of he posibility.
If you would like to know more about this topic, feel free to look it up on the Internet under this topic name.
Thank you,
Tim
Dear Steve H,
I love to analyze, and I do it in a positive way, I have no problem with somebody placing a piece of paper by the ceiling, so an OBE person can read it, I think that is a great idea. The problem with that idea is you are expecting somebody who has never had an OBE in their life, to go track down that piece of paper when they are in a life threating situation, they are cut off from their human skin, in a way that their heart has stopped pumping blood, and you want them to take a moment away from their day, to see if they can read a piece of paper, and who do I pick to do this when this happens in thier life; I would say that 90% of people that have true OBE's, probally didn't realy know anything about it a head of time.
I can't promise I could find a live volinteer to do the challenge you like, but I do think I might be able to get afterlife that is among us now, to put on a light show for now, and maybe later on we can advance it to Morse Code, but I would like to advance it to BrainGate, before we waist our time on that.
I find what works for me if having a positive attitude, because that shows I have control over my right brain, and then I ask my left side of the brain to get it done.
I find that things get done when you focus on them in all the paradigms.
Everything in life takes it's allotted amount of time, we can dig trenches on the negitive side, or we can build things on the positive side.
I am always amazed how somebody can go into somebody else's topic, and throw their weight around like they are doing something constuctive.
They excepted the challenge, that is their choice, now it is time to start planning on what will be needed to make this a positive possibility, for all the right reasons.
Is there anyone of you among us, that would like to talk constuctively about making this a reality.
I always thought that life was a purpose and it should be a good deal for all parties involved.
My goal is to show, that the reason afterlife do not communicate with us, is because we are not listening correctly, like it or not but afterlife out of body people are handicapped, and they need to be treated that way.
They can't hear you, they can not talk, I don't think they can move matter objects, but they alter electricity, we just have to put our selves in the correct position to make that a possibility.
We will have to post signs that are large enough that a person who can not see up close, can see them.
I could talk a long time about this topic, and I really don't know why, solutions to this problem just jump out at me and I just try and record them as soon as I can.
Think about this thought for a moment:
Once they except my challenge, regardless if I can duplicate an experience that my wife and I had already experienced, but I hope to have the challenge always set up for any future out of body afterlife people as wll, hopefully they paid attention where the device is located, and they try it as a option, if that is their only option.
When that boy took that bus and loaded it up with people and got to Houston dome first after hurican Katrina, he did the best he could do at the time, and that is all I am doing, placing the ground work for a diferent direction to future evolution.
Computers, machines, robots, will never behave like humans until out of body people are controlling them correctly.
A sign of how far the science of neuroprosthetics has come is that most of these difficulties are now engineering challenges, rather than problems of principle. In applauding this valuable work, it is worth noting that it was made possible by two of the bêtes noires of modern biology: commercial interests and animal research.
Right brain thinking will get us there.
Quote:
In the broadest sense, science (from the Latin "to know") refers to any systematic methodology which attempts to collect accurate information about reality and to model this in a way which can be used to make reliable, concrete and quantitative predictions about future events and observations. In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.
Thank you for reading my thoughts.
Thank you,
Tim
Thank you,
Tim
I think that we would all like to talk about it constructively but only if someone can provide some sort of evidence that there is an afterlife. If i ask you to help me get in contact with someone on mars wouldn't you ask me for some kind of evidence, proof or anything that at least suggested that there was someone there to get in contact with first? Perhaps we could start with you telling us a bit more about your experience. Thank you.
Thank you Cat1981,
I'm sorry but I don't think my Radio Shack device has a kit for such a big challenge as you are talking about, but it might do the trick for what I am talking about.
I plan on going and buying a battery for my Radio Shack device, then turning it on for about 30 days and see if I can get results like I got the last time I was focused on it; when I posted signs around it. I did it last time based on the fact that I thought it might be possible, and setting the experiement up with the expectation that after life are handicap, and that they could not talk, hear, or see small print. Then I wanted to make sure I advertised in a way to draw attention to them, and then see if they could follow out those written directions. Now after 30 days if I am not getting the results that other people would feel is good results, then I will re-evaluate the effort at that time.
So to answer your question, I am attempting to go to the afterlife, if there is one, and ask for their help just like I am asking for yours, and then see who is better at providing it.
Thank you,
Tim
To whom it may concern,
Just to make sure I am on the right page with the rest of you.
Please answer these two questions for me;
1) why do you feel it is not possible?
2) If it was possible to communicate with future afterlife out of body people, would you want it to happen or not, and why?
Thank you,
Tim
I wasn't proposing a "Flatliners" scenario, Tim. This experiment would best be done in an environment where people would have a higher chance of having a OBE/NDE, a hospital. Positive results wouldn't be confirmation of an after-life but it would validate some of the anecdote surrounding the lore.I think the promotion of critical thinking and a scientific approach is constructive, especially when we are dealing with something as extraordinary as the survival of death. There's nothing wrong with "positive thinking" in a psychological/emotional sense, but it's irrelevant in a scientific one.... I am always amazed how somebody can go into somebody else's topic, and throw their weight around like they are doing something constuctive.If it was somehow demonstrated that we have "souls" I'd still find logical inconsistencies regarding this subject. Why wrap a soul in meat for some 80-odd years in the first place? If the departed can interact with the living why isn't it happening all the time? Why this need (usually for a fee) for certain people with certain rituals/gadgets to make the introductions?Please answer these two questions for me;
1) why do you feel it is not possible?
I don't think very many people want their loved ones or themselves to cease to exist when they die and I can't sit here and tell you life after death is impossible, but as attractive as that notion is we have no evidence for it that meets scientific criteria.I'd love it to happen. It would rock my world but wishing doesn't make it so, neither does faith. That's the way it is.2) If it was possible to communicate with future afterlife out of body people, would you want it to happen or not, and why?
I'm done raining on your parade here Tim, I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I'll let others do the same.
I still don't understand what you are talking about here. Do you mean bilateral symmetry. If so, there are many things that are not bilaterally symmetrical. Please clarify.
Hello, my name is Tim, and thank you for taking an interest in this topic up to this point so far. I hope you find these new thoughts just as interesting. For some other people just want to argue about the possibility, I did set up a topic on one site called The Department of Negative Possibilities, so feel free to go their if you like as well.
What you are about to read is nothing more than directional fantasy, to possibly help jump start this topic's positive possibilities and nothing more.
Just something to think about, talk about, as we think through things that happen through out our lives. If for any reason this topic might make sense to you at any point during that time, please fill free to update your OBE level status on this site, and I will talk more about the different levels of OBE's later, at least one quick way we should think about them anyway.
I am sorry that nobody through out history, or even after 2005. I believe that was a very important year, with the emerge of Brain Gate. I am surprise others don't see the connection to this machine as I do; the simple connection of machines and afterlife thought, as a tool to advance this topic even further. I guess it is hard to move something further, when it was not even moving to begin with. A tool that can be modified to what ever possibility we see that needs to be done in this field, because that is exactly what this field is, a wide open field to anybody with an imagination. Just as much as you have the ability to create something worthwhile in this field, so too does that show you that scientist can not say for sure it can't be done, because they have not studied this field half as good as all of us can do, because it is in the numbers, just like we went with this one oil to run a car, when with a little more effort, we even found other fuels that could do the job just as well.. I am not afraid to talk to anyone about this field, because I know just from the short time I have been in it, there is so much more work need done in this field.
If you pay close attention, you will notice the closer we get to making this a reality, the louder some people will be about not wanting it to happen. All I ask, is that you keep an open mind when this occurs. Don't be fooled by what they will say to try and scare you, but what they are not saying, the real reason they don't want it to happen. This will be a clear smoke screen to what there main agenda is all about, and we will discuss that later on, if that worst scenario keeps presenting itself.
Others will try and blow it off as I am some kind of ex-Woodstock religious freak on drugs who thinks he is Einstein, when I am nothing more than a messenger who wants to tell different people's these thoughts, just in case it turns out, that it is really possible..
Through out history people have been able to accomplish things, regardless of different obstacles, and this topic should be the same as well. I believe the out come of this topic will be no different. Measuring it the right way, as Edison would, trying everything, until we find the right thing. Edison achievement was putting all the right pieces of the puzzle all in one place, so the positive result could show itself, and that is what I am asking in this topic as well.
One of the advantage of this topic is the Murphy law effect. This topic opportunities could change at any second of the day, depending on so many different factors.
Example: Imagine scientist do not want to try my theory because they don't buy into it, but five minutes from now, somebody like Oprah, has an OBE; a level five like I had, and is so taken in by the experience, that she decides to check it out on the Internet and comes across my topic on one of the forum boards like the Near Death Experience ones ; not only does she believe in it as me now because of her new experience, but she is also amazed that she has been written in to the solution as well; as one of the possible positive scenario's as I am laying out to you right now. She sees what I want her to do, and maybe she will actually do it, or at least put me in a position to talk face to face with people in that field that can set me straight on the possibilities. She might decide to buy one of the machines and teach people in one of her schools on how to make it happen.
Now the chances of something like this happening is probably one percent of the ten percent of people expected to have this experienced at some point in their life. and this percentage could go up, depending on other factors as well, and we have the Internet to thank for that. because this topic is in a position to be seen by anybody who wants to find it. Yes this one positive possibility that just might happen, another might be that she gets wind of this topic by somebody who is reading it now, gets a chance to meet her, gives here the topic to explore one day, and she actually does. then a lot of the thanks would go to the person who told her about it. I believed that scenario would only work if she really did have a Level five OBE, since then she might be in the right mind set to take it under consideration. This is what would be considered a pre-meditated possibility, based on luck and so many other variables, but it certainly could cause positive results.
I believe if we look at different percentages of Murphy law, this is where we are at:
If five percent of people who have level five OBE's, decide to search more about this experiences on the internet, and at least three percent of them come across my topic, and at least one percent of them are in a position to make it possible, either through private money, or Government money, then this possibility could happen regardless of explaining anything more about it at this time.
In other words, I do not have to prove anything, I just have to have this thought in a position to be seen by others, who can make it happen by either their wealth, media presents, or ability to make it happen. So what we really should be doing is finding those people now that can do this and start to wait for them to have this experience, so they can make it happen.
Will it be Oprah, Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Hillary Clinton, Michel Fox, the Pope, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Tom Cruise, or maybe somebody else like you!
Time will tell
What you might ask these people now is this question
"If it did happen to you, and you honestly believed it was real as Tim does, do you know how to find this topic?
Ask them what level are they now, and if they would public-ally announce if that status ever chances.
I do not think that is a bad question to ask anyone, and it really is kind of fun, if you think about it. It's one of your status points in life.
Example:
I have a driver license
I wear glasses
I'm a 2OBE, use to be a 1OBE
This could start being added to people's info on their "My Space" for example. You could wear different color plastic wrist bracelets. It would consist of six different colors.
Before long, people will want to make sure we are doing everything we can to make sure we have the best communication in place for every Level OBE out there.
I once joined the ROTC in school because they promised to let us go up in a plane during the school year, and I would not be apposed to going to some school and getting more training in this area as well, especially if they promised me training on Brain Gate as well in this field of positive possibilities. Maybe our great country would help with government grants in this field, since they say they don't want to leave any of us behind.
I believe this is as much possible, as a policeman on a motor cycle, writing a seat belt ticket to somebody in a big yellow Hummer.
If the government is so concerned about keeping us alive now, with the intent to get your tax dollar longer; just think of all the money they could make if they could measure us in the afterlife world.
I know it might be hard for level 1OBE to understand all this because they can not see it now, like they can see a Wal-Mart being built; but just keep in mind their is a lot of other things that you can not see as well, but they are out there.
Some people believe afterlife can talk, and they believe that EVP will do that for them, I for one do not from my own experiences from having an OBE.
I believe that OBE's ,are clues to afterlife OBE's; because I feel they are early returns from death, and you can see that from their vital signs at the time and how long they had the unexpected experienced as well.
What I recommend we do to make this communication a reality is no different than other things we have tried in the past with other experiments in other fields, like the light bulb.
Do you think every experiment NASA has tried in outer space has always been a success, or that they were able to measure it correctly before they were able to take the experiment to outer space, I would have to say no, but on the same hand, experiments that they thought might work one way, probably turned out to work totally different than they expected early on, and then they just adjusted their approach for future experiments, you can also see that in just different things they have done over the years just to make it safer, but even with all that said, they still know it is risk, but at this time, they still feel it is worth taking..
Example: They say that an atom in a lot of ways is like it's own little solar system, and that it shares it's space with other atoms making it a very crowded little universe. So small, but yet so far away, and if that is our worst scenario, then we cannot expect them to communicate any better than we could expect from our self's.
If you don't believe me, just go out side and yell at outer space, and see if they can hear you down here, probably the best you can expect, is that your niebor will call the police, for disturbing the piece.
Now on the other hand, if everybody on earth would be quiet for a few seconds, and the people on the space shuttle had the correct equipment, maybe they could hear you, but your chances of making that happening would probably be harder than actually communicating with afterlife, so in one way that is a good thing.
Imagine you have been trained on Brain Gate, you are connected to Brain Gate right now, and we wanted you to do something in the space shuttle in outer space
right now, how could we do that?
It all comes down to what other people want to do, and they are in a position to do it.
A sign of how far the science of neuroprosthetics has come is that most of these difficulties are now engineering challenges, rather than problems of principle. In applauding this valuable work, it is worth noting that it was made possible by two of the bêtes noires of modern biology: commercial interests and animal research.
How can we do this, how can we do that, and what if we looked at it this way or that way, and what if we took this and put it with that before we do this again and so on. I could list all type of things we have not done, just to hear from other people on what proof do I have?
Because I believe it to be, and it is natural to science laws.
Because my out of body experience to me was not a dream and it came to me when I had no reason to want it to be real. For some reason the government did not want me to be left behind in school to a point, so I knew the importance of history, that better things can be learned from other people mistakes.
Imagine for a moment that there is only one person on earth, and this person can not talk or hear, even though once they did. On the other hand, you are in an orbit outside of earth and you need to communicate with that person, and one of the tools you have available with you in outer space is a Brain Gate machine, what might be your best way of using it with that person back on Earth. the first thing you must do is let them know what your intentions are and then the best way to do that problem, is post signs in outer space, that can be seen on earth, the next thing you must do is listen for vibrations, so you might need to magnify your efforts for that signal, while trying to drown out any other wasted noise, and this is where it gets harder, because there is not only one person on earth, as there is not only one afterlife in space, and unfortunately they all make vibrations.
Think about this for a moment, I believe every afterlife takes up space, just like you do, and how many that is, can only be a guess. If it is an animal, human, or anything else with energy thought, then you add in how many years they have been around, how many different strange movement of atoms in a curtain amount of space, then multiply that by all atom space, and that should at least give you a good honest number for now; and I would have to think that would be about one percent of all atoms. Now you might think that is a lot, but it really is not, when scientist believe only three percent of space is filled with atoms to begin with.
I once heard we sent signals into outer space, hoping that somebody else might hear them, and on the surface that sounds find, but once again it somebody like Einstein is floating out in outer space in his afterlife, he could not hear this message, because once again, he can not hear in his new handicap position..
I do not believe we need to reinvent the wheel, but we do need to put the wheel in the best position for success. We need to paint better pictures to afterlife, and we might need to put Brain Gate in the best position for success.
Hear me out on this thought. Lets train future patients of Brain Gate for the worst scenario on this topic, and build off of that, just like we do in other area's of life.
We need the best one on one situation that can be done, and that place might be in a pocket in space where dark energy is at. A place where one potential afterlife atom might need to go, to get away from all the white noise of all other afterlife here on Earth.
A place that is vast with nothing, but one atom and one Brain Gate machine, one on one like I was saying..
Think of afterlife as a stadium of noisy people, all trying to be heard for now, and you are trying to communicate with a Brain Gate machine at the same time; sounds impossible, but what if you could float away from this environment and find a quiet place in outer space, that has been selected just for you, with all the bells and whistles. A place where you might be heard; then your chances for success might be much greater.
So what we will need is a satellite, that will be prepared to take a modified Brain Gate machine and other potential afterlife energies up in outer space, to explore this possibility, and then fly to a dark energy place in space and see what happens.
This theory in my opinion could be done, and it would also cover some of the worst scenario for getting it done. Scientist have already shown that some things seam to work better in outer space, so do you think they have ever tried this one before, I didn't think so either. This would also cover situations, where some people think once you are cut off from your old body, you take off toward outer space anyway.
A lot of people believe in the real world that most things can be measured, but in the afterlife, they are happy with the possibility that they go to a place that can't be measured, and I do not agree with that.
A lot of people do not like to talk about anything to do with human death, because they associate it with pain, and your thoughts are always programmed to take you out of pain and into pleasure.
This is so far my Rating system for out of body afterlife
Level Zero: It has never happened to you, and you find it hard to believe it could happen to anybody else as well.
Level One: You had a dream or dreams of having an OBE's, at least it gives you something to talk about on this topic.
Level Two: You trained yourself to have one, the number does not matter, and it is all based on the fact that you wanted it to happen, and your thoughts did everything it could to make it as close as the real thing as you wanted to comprehend of it.
Level Three: You had one, but you experienced it through your right brain, because your left brain thoughts could not comprehend the experience, so your right side thoughts entertained you in limbo, supplying you only with what thoughts it feels you could handle at the time
Level Four: an OBE's that has some right brain activity, during some parts of the experience, but also some left brain activity at times as well; helping to keep you a little more level to the experience as well, but still sounding a little over the top when trying to explain it to others, even though they could see that you were showing signs of being dead at the time, and any machines connected at the time was proving it as well. Some machines were showing you as brain dead.
Level Five: Your body signs are showing you dead, you wake up by the ceiling and remain a wake through the rest of the process, you are in total control of your thoughts, and you can remember re-entering back into your body, by steps you did to make that a possibility.
Level Six: Out of body afterlife = still waiting for the correct communication devises to be in place for this one.
So if you are a level Zero, you do have a lot of options, but just remember what came around to us, might be coming to you later today. As far as I am aware right now, there is no proof all people that have an OBE, are nuts and have some kind of drug problem. If that was the case, people like Winston Churchill would never have got elected to his position in power. Just because you have never experienced it yet, or if you ever do, does not mean you should be ignorant to the possibility, just in case their is a possibility.
My thoughts tell me that one day in the near future, somebody like Oprah, Donald Trump, or even Tom Cruise will have a level five experience, then they will research the topic on the Internet, come across this topic, and then they will use their abilities, from their position, to supply the tools and support that will be needed to advance research in this field, so we can find out once and for all if it can be a reality. Now will they type into their computer the name of my topic and find it, probably not, but hopefully they might go to one of there forums and see it there. That is one of the advantages of a bulletin boards. Unlike the fact, that George Washington might of slept here or there, no one really knows, because there is no proof, but if your topic is still present, when big wheels come around, it's chances of being seen become so much greater. Depending on that big wheels ability to turn thought into action.
Some people ask me to explain how Brain Gate is going to make this happen, and we both would be kidding our self's, since I have never been any closer to that machine than you, but something inside me tells me that I should at least be given a chance to at least go to one on a field trip, just to interact with them and see what comes out of that. I believe everybody should be given one opportunity every year to do this until we die, or science prove it can't be done first in a way that can be measured. Why should I be allowed to do this? Because they might explain to me why it can't work, then I will be glad to report those findings, or they might give me challenges to over come, and then I will have a natural year to slice up those challenges, post them on this site as you can do as well, until all those challenges are gone.
I would like to find some place that could take all of my papers on this topic, and come up with some way of filing it for anybody to read for years to come, if they choose to do that. maybe what we need now is The Department of Positive out of Body possibility Museum topic, because at some point in history, people are going to want to know where we are at on this topic.
I understand if you are a level Zero, and that all of this sounds so impossible to comprehend and it might sound like right brain thinking, but just like anything else in life, you have to start somewhere; and it is always awkward at first, regardless of what ever it might be. Learning to crawl, or ride a bike, is always strange at first, but over time it gets easier, like other new things we learn everyday. Focus new change has always been a part of our life's anyway.
But as your number goes up as you move up in number to what piece you are, Some people for example that might be a seven in management, does not want fives, to become eights, because they feel threatened about their position, and probably income situations, that might be the case, but I always welcomed any number above me, because I honestly believed I just made us better as a team. I always tries to get ones to threes and so on, and maybe they could not become a three at this time, but they are ready to begin to be two's anyway.
I do not like to criticize, condemn or complain about anybody until they can not communicate anymore, so I guess I want to prove once and for before I die, one way or the other, if this is possible or not.
So maybe I am crazy for the fact hat I could be doing all type of other things than what I am doing now. All I can say about that is this. I understand the importance of being three dimensional in most areas of life, and I also understand what it is like to tune a curtain station on the radio.
I have the experience of having a level five OBE
I make a constant effort everyday, to try and see this topic from all angles as possible, while still keeping in mind that might not be possible.
I believe I am honest, reliable, creative, willing to listen, willing to learn, the ability not to cave in to unfounded citizen, based on their opinion that I am the sole provider for having to prove right now, how this can be a reality or not.
I understand if you are a level Zero, that this seams impossible, and since you are not vested in this as I or maybe other level fives, that the best we should do is come to terms with the way you are thinking, and maybe in time that will be the case, or others who might believe or hope as I do, but really don't think it can happen.
On that level, maybe it is good for all interested parties involved that my possibility should be a Yard stick for all false realities, and it must be measured only in our hearts because such a reality in it self might sound to hard to comprehend, for those all I can say, is it will be one person at a time, and all that will come down to timing. I assume that most people would not want to train for something until they see it work first, and I do not have a problem with that, as long as we put our selves in a position to have it work first.
_______________
This modified Brain Gate machine needs some hits in a way that it was never made to do before, but the bottom line is, it needs some tries.
I feel the more I try and explain this topic the better I get, and hopefully the better you get as well, and I believe with every potential hit the machine might receive in the future after the machine is modified, the interchange we have for success.
I would rather list all the different things we tried, so other people can read that , and then hopefully somebody will read it and see what other steps to the puzzle is out there.
like to relationship then keep believing what you are believing for now, and maybe you will always by all means do not believe it is possible, with out proof six proof.
There is a movement that is going on all over the world about this topic. People just like you, who have experienced a level five OBE, are coming to sites like this one, are getting important information about this topic.
Even though some people might miss-lead you hat this topic is as dead as the music in the song American Pie, you now know different, this possibility will be possible as soon as Murphy law shoots an electric arrow into the right person.
Through out life, different people have been influenced by these thoughts, but they were never in a position like you to make it a realty, so that is the question you must always ask yourself at different times in your life. Are you in a position to make it a reality? If the answer is yes, what is sopping you. If your answer is any of these, I have different comments for them, then it is your choice if you want to do it or not.
I'm scared - A great President once said, we have nothing to fear but fear itself
what would my friends say? Well, if you make it a reality, you can talk to your friends about it then.
Can I take my money with me, by putting in my will that I want to keep my money in a Pay pal account, in case they make it a reality in the future? - I personally do not see a problem in that, as long as a percentage was used every year for more research in that area. It would kind of like donating it to a cause, that might pay back big dividends in the event you are reached at a later date. the whole time your money is put into accounts that is growing in interest every year, unless science at some point can prove it is not possible, then you go to the next line in your will and you put it somewhere else.
Why don't the Government just work hard on making this a reality on there own? - Maybe they would, if they were not so busy giving amnesty consideration to all the criminals that are inside our borders. then when we do catch the million or so bad ones in the bunch, then we can us our tax dollars to keep them locked up for years to come.
You will never have a effect on this topic, until you have a cause, and that is what I am trying to explain, to the best of my ability today.
If you got to go o something else, please fill free to do that, but please find the time to help by keeping thoughts like these alive.
I believe one of the reasons this has not become a reality yet. is based on so many factors, but I also believe it is possible based on so many factors.
Some people would lead you to believe, that it is a waste of time to discuss this or anything else, because everything that can be said, has been said, or that everything that can be discovered has been discovered about this topic, so don't waste your time, and you will be considered a nut if you do.
Think for a second as though this topic is a song, some people might not like it, and that is fine, all I have to do is leave it playing for a while and see if some body might come along and listen to it as well, and decide to build a new machine to play it on.
This has already has happened in our past. Thanks to advancement in machines. They can take old tapes and albums of people like Hank Williams, Elvis Presley, and so on, and recreate their music in all type of formats for years to come.
Now some might say that everything that can be said, has already been said before. Now I don't know if that is true or not. I do know at this time, that my topic on the Internet, is the only one posted like it anywhere.
Is this topic truly just a simple twist of fate, only time will tell and it isn't talking at this time , as far as anybody can truly understand.
I will not lie, there are times in my life that I believe in happy endings, and I believe my topic is the closest thing I know to such a reality.
I am banking my topic on the possibility of somebody in an important position, such like in the media profession on having an OBE as well at some point, and the experience makes them want to explore the Internet for other experiences as theirs and they come across this topic, and depending on their influence, or financial backing, they take
Maybe they have access to machines like Brain Gate, because they had come down in price, or they are cheaper than gas at the time, what ever the reason, but they get the word out, they have the ability to sway people's behaviors. or they just like the idea of taking their money with hem and sees this as a good opportunity to do that, because nobody wants to be communicating in the afterlife, with out money. Research can only take you so far, at some point, the general public, private sector, or afterlife sector will have to help split the bill.
Some people worry about the thing called the world order, I believe it is to early to rule out that possibility, for all type of reasons. I believe the world order will perform at higher standards than anything you can imagine now.
Some people worry about Big Brother watching us, and then complains when they have to wait for other government programs as well. If having one all Big Brother, who is devoted to making my life easier, sounds a lot better than, what we have now, where different brothers are fighting and dying all over the world.
Have I finally planted the seed tactually created something,
that is bigger than life as we know it, only time will tell.
is it something all together different , or how things truly come around and go around, when it concerns The Sting Theory when it ran into The Department of Positive Out of Body Possibilities.
I am quite aware that different people have different opinions about this topic, and some do not even like talking about it at al, unless scientific prove is given up front, before any type of testing can be explored, but I also believe after reading other people positive replies, that there might be other ways of making this a reality, and that is luck.
Let me give you an example. Let's say that somebody in a very powerful position has an OBE at some point in their life, and they might have the ability to make this a reality as well. Maybe somebody who is so powerful in the media present, that they can build schools, provide equipment, build wings to hospitals, or even builds colleges as well.
but if I remember right, they are a lot like me. If I yawn they yawn, we both put on our shoes on at a time, and we both could have an OBE. Now when I had mine, back in the late seventy, early eighties, you did not hear anything about it, and you surely did not have the internet, but now, if you had one today, you can jump on the Internet, and you might come across my topic, and if that is the case, I would like to think I am providing a service, especially if this scenario might happen.
What you are about to read is nothing more than fantasy at this time.
The year is 3535
Hello, my name is John Doe and I am eighty years old in human life, but now I am an out of body afterlife person with no password to prove who I am. Nobody ever thought of giving you a password for my type of situation when I was alive because, it just wasn't something you talked about when I was alive, People were too scared to talk about dying, and that type of thinking at that time was just too far over the top.
I guess the biggest break through in this field came shortly after Oprah had her OBE's herself, and she decided to provide research in that field and made it a reality. None of this would not of happened if she did not have here experience, and some guy by the name of Tim, hadn't put this topic in a position to be read by her.
Tim realized that you can't make anything a reality if you don't believe in it first, and then have the ability to make it a reality second. Tim realized that he was average, but he also knew other people will have this experience, and they might be above average, and if they could work together, the chances of this working would be no different than Bernie Toblin and Elton John working together, with the goal of making music..
Tim believed that Afterlife are doing quite fine, but they are handicapped, and need to be treated as though, instead of being ignored by all type of false belief's that give the impression to people that it can't be possible, when in fact, it has never really been studied correctly, since Thomas Edison studied it years earlier.
Now on the other hand, I have this friend name Jane Doe who has had a password for quite some time, because she had the insight to make it a reality, following her unique experiences through out life. She was already handicapped, and her mother had an OBE a couple of years earlier, and made the connection to Jane, so she helped Jane get qualified with Brain Gate, just so she could live a better life on earth as a handicapped person, but never forgetting to motivate Jane in the future possibilities if Tim is indeed right. Her mother worked on Jane's placebo thoughts, telling her to focus strong because you might be doing this for a very long time. After Jane started getting good on the Brain Gate machine, her mother worked with her on a password, just in case things work out as Tim Believe they might.
It was not long after Jane was totally focus on the possibility, that complication from other health issues with her took her life. Jane's mother went to Capital Hill looking for more funding in this area, but was turned down do to lack of evidence, fortunately Jane's mother talked about the experience under the Department of Positive out of Body Afterlife possibilities topic umbrella, so other people in the puzzle had access to the information as well.
She also got training on the machines at a much earlier time, so she had special advantages when the first modified black market Brain Gate machine came on the market. Also after Brain gate began to become public, curtain radio stations bought time shares on the machine, so people could like Jane's mother could try and contact with her daughter. Her mother was always a strong willed person herself, so this all made sense to her, even though other people were not so sure in the possibility.
As I was saying, Jane's mother put her in a potential positive position, and now that it worked out, Jane is returning the favor back to her mom and everybody else as well and she is respected and admired for what she has done, and also the fact that they had the hind sight to have a password put in place, even though they did not need one at the time, and that password can be used anywhere American Express or Visa is taken. She did not have a lot of things when she was alive, but now with here afterlife job, and her low maintained afterlife style, she has piled a lot of money up on all type of different Pay Pales. When she was alive. before she got injured in a hit and run car crash, she was a teacher, and now in her afterlife she is still teaching. She teaches a class on the Internet called "How to live your dreams the right way." She has also written a lot of different books about the topic as well. Maybe you have heard of them before:
"Don't forget your Password" this book talks about other passwords you can use, if you did not have one recorded with Brain Gate before, and they are making great strides in communicating with people from other centuries as well, come to find out, they have been getting smarter while in an out of body experience thanks to some people who use big screen TV's when watching the news, and the fact that the put the words on the screen, when the news guy is talking. I guess the most famous person they have talked to is Thomas Edison, who replied "I told you so."
other books she has written as well.
"Don't stay connected to every wave that comes your way"
"Victim attitude is a waste of time, take control of your energy"
"How to un-retire in the Afterlife"
What I know about the crosses you bear, and what I am allow to say on a privilege communication device"
She has been a strong advocate in this field for quite some time. She once told me a story about this guy named Tim, who was probably one of the first people to bring this topic to the for front, just to be ridiculed about it all through out is last years as a human. They say he never did get trained, or given a password while he was a human, and nobody has ever heard from him again in the afterlife, I imagine he went off into outer space somewhere, or he is a bigger introvert than I gave him credit to be. Now when I say he went off into outer space, that does not necessarily mean outer space.. Scientist have been claiming for quite some time now, that some people when they cross over, never come out of their right brain thoughts, they believe at the time of changing form, that some people experience such a reaction mentally to it, that there thoughts take them out of pain, which is the reality side of it, and puts them in the make believe side of their thoughts, where they are left dorm ad. They say that some afterlife have been like this for billions of years. Scientist are just now starting to see the advantage now of having high spirits at this time, because even if this energy is small in size to a human body, they still do have the ability to alter other energy around them with a strong afterlife will. They just caution to some afterlife not to get to excited that they caused defects in some devices back on earth.
I guess one of the biggest break through was after they got their first successful hit on a old Brain Gate Machine, that Tim helped modified way back when. Now that they had confirmation with the modified sensor, all they had to do after that was read the area in question.
I forget what type of substance they discovered we were, I don't remember if they said we were a special type of static electricity, the kind that can move around in between waves, or that we were some type of micro, but in any case, they found us. Thanks to people like Jane Doe, who provides extra money for people like me to get access to talk to people like you.
I guess the only big difference I see now on Earth, is how so many business are catering to people like us now. Trying to take advantage of our purchasing dollar. I know the other day that Jane told me she was thinking about buying her own sensor, that was painted like a pink flower. To me all sensors are the same, what ever floats your boat.
Now looking back on it, it's hard to believe how many years they kept arguing about even doing research in that area.
I guess on one hand, even though you know one day you will be put in that situation, you still don't want to think about it. I'm was surprised by how many people at the time, did not want to know more about it, and then found them self's in the same situation I am in. Even though They have now made it possible for people like me to communicate, it is still hard to find a good career you can do, because they are never really sure I am who I say I am. Not like people like Jane Doe, who planned out her whole life, and afterlife. She knew while she was alive at the time, that they did not have the ability to do it, but she knew she loved to communicate, be it on the internet, or on her cell phone, that if the possibility did ever present itself, that she could save a lot of time, by having the training and the confirmation, by getting a her password certified in the National data base, at the World order training center in India, They actually call the building Gandhi' Place. Now Jane was trained in 2010, and they actually had there first inner astral naught success in 2050. So after they started understanding how to do it better, they decided to explore all the past people that had been trained on it first, and that is how Jane got in on the ground floor. At first they would ask her and others to try different experiments, just to see what type of challenges they might be experiencing in their environment, and they also paid them while they were doing this. You would be surprise how much money they are getting from different companies in the private sector.
Tim had a dream, but he thought it was a real, so now he thinks that we can communication with out of body afterlife; the only problem with his strange thought is that we can't prove him wrong, on the dream or the theory. We can expect him to prove it though, since he came up with the thought. He will be expected to take ownership of the thought, since he came up with it, and he needs to understand that. Now we are not apposed to the fact that other people might believe in it as well, and they are all more than welcome to make it a reality, or help Tim as he tries to find a way to make it happen.
.This example below, is hopefully will not be what comes out of this in the future. I would not have a problem with it, if it is example (2)
Imagine about fifty years from now, one of you might be telling this stories around a fake campfire, since real fires will probably be against the law by then anyway, because of global warming, and you bring up this topic at that time.
1) Back in 2007, this guy on the Internet, thought we could communicate with ghost, and he said that one day he would contact us again through a old machine called Brain Gate, and find the person who took his big toe"
(2) Back in 2007, the year we started focused on the heavens, this guy who thought we could do it, was also one of the first people to actually communicate back with us, and the first thing he communicated back after entering in his password was, "who took my big toe."
Thank you once again for reading my thoughts, and please include yours, and I will read and try and understand them as well as you are trying to understand mine.
I find through out life, things seam to work so much better, when it is a good deal for all parties involved.
Thank you,
Tim
Tim, with respect, if an employee of mine turned in a report like that I'd send him back to his desk till he got it right. Please give us an executive summary and 'chapter' headings. Otherwise no one is going to read it.
Thank you Ophiolite,
I'm sorry about that, I should of went for the submit button sooner.
Thank you,
Tim
To whom it may concern,
When you think about my topic, you might want to think outside the box.
Exactly what is 'Thinking Outside the Box'?
Outside the Box
Thinking outside the box requires different attributes that include:
Willingness to take new perspectives to day-to-day work.
Openness to do different things and to do things differently.
Focusing on the value of finding new ideas and acting on them.
Striving to create value in new ways.
Listening to others.
Supporting and respecting others when they come up with new ideas.
Out-of-the box thinking requires an openness to new ways of seeing the world and a willingness to explore. Out-of-the box thinkers know that new ideas need nurturing and support. They also know that having an idea is good but acting on it is more important. Results are what count
http://www.canadaone.com/ezine/april..._thinking.html
Thank you,
Tim
To whom it may concern,
http://vehram.com/highband/index.html
In the spring of 1994, Vessen Hopkins uncovered an external energy array,
focused at specific key points outside the body. This incredible discovery
represents the single most important breakthrough in the history of science
and has implications that stand to unravel our greatest mystery, is there
life after death.
The Vehram Energy System is an external energy array comprising six
distinct energy centers, universally arranged in a unique and independently
verifiable configuration, yet is entirely outside the human body. The
energy that emanates from these energy centers is commonly recognized by
astral projection practitioners as the "vibrational surge," the escape
energy that fuels the separation.
The importance of this discovery to not only those who practice astral
projection, but all of humanity, cannot be overstated. This is the key to
one of our most mysterious phenomena, the out-of-body experience, thus
opening the portal for all to exploring this natural ability and yet offers
science a way to demonstrate the separate nature of consciousness by
showing that we are indeed able to reach beyond the physical body to
interact with this external energy array. Its properties are so unique,
universal, and powerful, it simply cannot be dismissed as a figment of the
imagination. The system exists for everyone and serves the same unique
purpose, to fuel the astral body and enable consciousness to separate from
the physical. Of particular curiosity to science is what happens when one
makes direct contact with one of these energy centers.
After more than 13 years of research and investigation into this ethereal
anomally, Hopkins is making the discovery of the Vehram System known to
all. Launching the site http://vehram.com and requesting your help,
Hopkins hopes to spread the word to as many as possible. Anything you can
do to help others learn about this incredible energy source would be
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Anyone involved in metaphysical or other serious scientific research
related to energy and or quantum mechanics could help by offering
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have already felt its power. Different aspects of this energy system were
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suggesting that it exists in exactly the same universal configuration for
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is a real manifestation, not the product of one person's illusion. If the
energy system is real, then so is our ability to reach beyond the body.
Anyone can see for themselves how this energy system works and examine the
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story in length of how Hopkins stumbled onto the Vehram System and offers a
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fundamentals governing this natural ability.
Most importantly, we ask you to help spread the word. Feel free to forward
this email to anyone you feel would be interested. Help us share the
message through the internet, through online sites, blogs, forums, etc.
The more people who know the more enlightened we become through the spread
of knowledge. This is the discovery that proves life after death and the
Vehram Energy System represents a doorway to the other side so that we may
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Thank you for your help and support,
Sincerely,
Public Relations Team
-vehram.com
Note: This email was sent to a hand full of individuals and institutions we
felt would be interested in receiving this correspondence. If you feel you
have received this transmission in error, simply reply to this email with
the word remove in the subject line and you will never receive any further
contact from us. Thank you for your support.
vehram.com
300 Sunset Dr
Hooks, Tx. 75561
prelations@vehram.com
Thank you,
Tim
Yeah, that "energy detector" was on the tube a while back. Turns out, the only people who could "see" anything interesting were the ones who were trying to convince others it did something. The rest of the scientists and observers either could explain any changes with fundamental physics, or point out that there was a lot of randomness and not a lot of pattern (in short meaning "pretty picture, moving on").
Dear Wolf, how do we go about seeing this thing you saw?
Thank you,
Tim
To whom it may concern,
Thank you for all your input so far on this topic, and I hope to talk to you more about it when I get back from a vacation.
http://www.near-death.com/jokes.html
After a preacher died and went to heaven, he noticed that a New York cab driver had been awarded a higher place than he.
"I don't understand," he complained to God. "I devoted my entire life to my congregation."
"Our policy here in heaven is to reward results," God explained. "Now, was your congregation well attuned to you whenever you gave a sermon?"
"Well," the minister had to admit, "some in the congregation fell asleep from time to time."
"Exactly," said God, "and when people rode in this man's taxi, they not only stayed wake, they even prayed."
Thank you,
Tim
Just think if we took that one step furter and invited trained out of body after life people.
Thank you,
Tim
Tim,
Stop waffling and stop multiple posting.
This persons reply is one of the many reasons, why I feel this topic is so important.
"I understand. I even took the time to understand because I wanted to. It is certainly in my best interest to understand because if I find myself dead and still thinking I want to know what my options are."
It never hurts to expect the worst, so the worst never comes.
"If our personality survives, then it is strictly logical or scientific to assume it retains memory, intellect, other faculties and knowledge we acquire on Earth.
Therefore...if we can evolve an instrument so delicate as to be affected by our personality as it survives in the next life, such an instrument, when made available, ought to record something."
~Thomas Alva Edison
What does it hurt to have a back up plan?
Thank you,
Tim
July 16th, 2007, 12:05 AM
To whom it may concern,
The Department of Positive Out of Body Possibilities, now has it's own web site and forum.
http://www.freewebs.com/tim4848/
Please take the time to check it out and tell me what you think.
Thank you,
Tim
It was on either the Discovery channel or TLC about a year ago. Some episode about the power of faith over the body.
There was this guy who traveled to Egypt (I think) to see some people stick things through their bodies. The people claimed they felt no pain nor suffered any afflictions because their faith protected them. This guy, for whatever reason you like, converted to their beliefs and started teaching himself to do those things.
Later in the episode the guy comes to some lab with a machine that supposedly registers the energy fields around the body (which he called the "life energy" fields). He told the people in the lab that they could watch his life force effecting the energy field when he prepared himself to be stabbed with stuff.
He kept pointing at the visual displays saying "See, you can see the life force altering..." but to be honest it all looked exactly the same. It was like the guy was hallucinating or something. They ran the machine passed a whole bunch of people, but the only ones who claimed to see anything were the ones already involved in "life force" religious stuff (aka biased).
Thank you Wolf for explaining it better,
Tim
To whom it may concern,
From Transformer,
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/f...ead/3528/P260/
As someone who has just read through this thread from start to finish in one sitting, I must say:
My understanding of your theory thus far:- You have had a left brain SOBE.
- You want to prove that the possibility of having a left brain SOBE means that human thought can exist outside the human body.
- This includes that human consciousness or thought can exist post-death.
- You believe that the Brain Gate machine offers a new potential way to test this.
- You have also developed a simpler method to test this which relies on a touch sensor, and a light.
- Based on your personal experience, you have come up with needed additional equipment to bypass what you see as obstacles (not being able to hear, not being able to read things which aren’t large and easy to read).
- You have posted your theory in the same manner as you have here in multiple forums.
- You believe that for someone to successfully communicate with the physical world we all know when they are not in their body, they need to believe in the possibility, and train to do it, during their physical life.
- You are not easily deterred from your goal, truly believe in your idea, and believe that if it can be proven in a mathematical theory, the results will benefit all of mankind.
Your communication skills are good in the sense that you can write coherently and eloquently, however you seem to be having problems putting your thoughts into a format that others can understand.This is something that I deal with every day working in the training field. Preparing training materials is essentially finding a way to tell someone how to do something, however the key to doing it successfully is to do it in a way that your target audience can understand and identify with. I have worked with many extremely intelligent and knowledgeable professionals who exhibit the same issue that I see with you; you understand your theory and what you are trying to prove, but fail to translate it into terms and concepts that can be clearly understood by all. You tend to over-elaborate details and advanced concepts related to your theory, when the basic concepts remain to be understood by the audience.
In simple terms, you are failing to “dumb down” the information you are presenting, so that people can understand your basic concepts and ideas before you go onto discussing the advanced, or still uncertain parts of your idea. If my synopsis above is a good basic definition of what you have been trying to communicate all along, please feel free to use it moving forward. You should also consider how your explanations and posts compare to the synopsis I have provided and see if you can envision a way to “translate” you thoughts into similar statements moving forward.
1) Present your overall hypothesis. Keep it simple and easy to understand. Present it in terms familiar to those who you want to inform.
Example: Your title for the thread has a “fantastic” feel to it and leads to disbelief from the start. “Proving that human consciousness can exist outside the body” would be much simpler and to the point, and people would understand what you want to get across right from the start. This sets the tone for you to then explain in detail what you believe and how you wish to prove it. I understand that for you, this started with an SOBE, but your theory goes beyond that and the SOBE was simply a “eye opening experience”.
2) Present your goal. Right from the start, let people know what exactly you want to prove.
3) Present the “tools” you will use to test your theory. Explain what each tool will do, and why clearly and concisely.
4) Explain what led you to come up with your hypothesis. A personal experience is a fine way of coming up with a theory or idea (think Newton and the apple, even if it didn’t really happen great ideas really do start in similar ways) but it shouldn’t be the primary focus of your entire communication.
5) Present any open questions you have, or alternate possibilities you may have thought of. Once you have done the first four things, people will be ready to receive this information in the right context. This would include eventual results you might expect as a result of proving your goal.
6) Present what you need to continue testing and working on your theory. If you are requesting assistance, detail what that entails. One of your posts mentioned great cost associated, this may scare people off. I now have the impression that anyone can help you test your theory at a basic level using a touch sensor, a light or buzzer and a large-screen TV, along with a clear understanding of what your methodology for testing is. This simple setup is definitely something people may be interested in testing, mention the Brain Gate as another “optimal” test you can see, but don’t focus so much on it as it is clearly a lofty goal.Again, this is just a suggestion, but hopefully you will see the value. I think you have some interesting ideas and they just need to be presented in a different manner to get a different reaction. You still won’t get everybody on your side, but you’ll more likely get some curious and interested parties.
Please don’t get me wrong Tim, I’m not saying you’re a genius (although you could very well be) and I’m not saying you’re completely blinded and wrong. What I am saying is that you are indeed failing to accept some very real possibilities when it comes to your theory.
Basic fact is that as others have stated, it is COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that your SOBE experience was more of a dream-like state. People CAN be influenced while dreaming, this is proven. People CAN think they are awake while dreaming, this is also proven. The truth is that despite your belief that you had a true and pure SOBE, it is entirely possible that you didn’t and were dreaming. You are convinced that it was an SOBE, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it was beyond the shadow of a doubt.
It was not a dream, it was reality.
That said, there is nothing wrong with you truly believing that this was an SOBE, and the theory that you have come up with as a result of it could very well prove true. As long as you insist that is absolutely was an SOBE beyond the shadow of a doubt and that “nobody can understand”, however you will fail to interest anyone who doesn’t already believe in SOBEs. If you can’t interest these people, then you will never be able to prove your theory for a theory proven only by people who already believed it to be true, will hold very little value to the scientific community. It will also prevent you from enlisting the help of people who could help you to prove (or disprove) your theory in the long run.
It could, if it was treated like a customer service issue.
Example: If one person gets sick eating at a restaurant, nobody really takes the time to care, and it is considered an isolated situation, maybe they were already sick from something else, but if more than one gets sick at the same time, at the same restaurant, it is considered an epidemic, and action should take place to fix the problem. We are dealing with thousand of people who have had the same experience as I, so that would make it a epidemic. We all do not need to get sick to know that there is a problem.
This is what happened and I am pretty sure it’s exactly what happened and it was real, BUT I can’t be 100% certain until it is proven.”
Now take this theory that you have which resulted from an experience while you are still alive, and expand it to that it can happen post-death.
I would say first prove an SOBE can happen when someone is alive, focus on this as it is the heart of your theory and your personal experience. Once this is proven, then you can make the next step and say that if someone can exist outside their body, they can potentially exist as energy once they die in the same way. .
You’ve covered a lot of bases (testing different sensors, etc.) but you just need to present it properly, and define an order to your theory.
Presenting it as one big jumble of misaligned pieces just isn’t going to cut it if you truly want to see this worked on, or looked at by anyone who doesn’t already believe in SOBE thus isn’t already biased.
Also, please read what people write carefully. It is painful to see you misinterpret sarcasm and people poking fun at you as people trying to help you. Perhaps their sarcasm and poking is indeed helping you to further develop your theory on your own, but it is important to realize whether it was their intention or not. Otherwise you will find yourself wasting a lot of energy writing to them.
All right, that’s it. Hopefully this will help you to present your theory moving forward in a way people will be more willing to accept. I personally think your experiments sound interesting and would like to see them actually happen so that we can see what the results are.
If you want to be taken seriously, you need to work within the scientific methodology and ensure that you do not set the results before the experiment takes place. You also need to take each step of your theory one at a time and prove it individually.
Thank you Transformer,
from Tim
No, it was plenty dumb enough.In simple terms, you are failing to “dumb down” the information you are presenting
Link
A newspaper article i thought might be of interest to Tim and the other out of body experience people.
There was a study recently reported by the BBC of a scientific test done to try to cause out of body experiences. The test concluded that it was possible to trigger someone to experience an out-of-body sensation dream state through virtual images and touch sensations. In the end they said it would be great methodology for use in video games.
Have a read for yourself: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm
I think the only thing significant about the UK/Swiss test is that it probably is the first refined test for causing such a response in a controlled environment. It's not new to know that the conscious mind experiences spacial awareness.Article quote:
"Two teams used virtual reality goggles to con the brain into thinking the body was located elsewhere."
With that in mind, the Times has spun up another report on the test, where they state:
That's a lovely sentence, which can unfortunately be misleading. One might think Times is reporting that they've proven out-of-body experiences have all been fully explained. Anyone having read the article, and possessing of half a brain, would know that's a twisting of the facts.Times Article:
"The sensation of watching your own body from a distance, however, need owe nothing to the supernatural, research has proved."
Interesting stuff, though. I wonder what the psychological effects are of OBE gaming? Imagine tricking the brain into believing you're actually in the game of DOOM. Man, I need to setup a shrink shop if that ever happens. Easy pickings...
Thank you Cat1981,
So they are trying to say that our mind is just making it all up?
Thank you Wolf,There was a study recently reported by the BBC of a scientific test done to try to cause out of body experiences. The test concluded that it was possible to trigger someone to experience an out-of-body sensation dream state through virtual images and touch sensations. In the end they said it would be great methodology for use in video games.
Have a read for yourself: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm
I think the only thing significant about the UK/Swiss test is that it probably is the first refined test for causing such a response in a controlled environment. It's not new to know that the conscious mind experiences spacial awareness.Article quote:
"Two teams used virtual reality goggles to con the brain into thinking the body was located elsewhere."
With that in mind, the Times has spun up another report on the test, where they state:
That's a lovely sentence, which can unfortunately be misleading. One might think Times is reporting that they've proven out-of-body experiences have all been fully explained. Anyone having read the article, and possessing of half a brain, would know that's a twisting of the facts.Times Article:
"The sensation of watching your own body from a distance, however, need owe nothing to the supernatural, research has proved."
Interesting stuff, though. I wonder what the psychological effects are of OBE gaming? Imagine tricking the brain into believing you're actually in the game of DOOM. Man, I need to setup a shrink shop if that ever happens. Easy pickings...
I'm glad to see that they are focused on it.
I was just pointing out that it's easy to jump to conclusions about OBE with these articles.
The UK/Swiss test did not set out to draw any conclusions about OBE, nor did it make any.
The only thing they did was prove that you could trick the consciousness into thinking it was oriented differently than normal. Such an event is similar to what is experienced during an OBE.
It's safer to say the test was to ascertain the ability for the conscious mind to be altered in such a way, rather than to study OBE.
The media is taking a bit of liberty with the subject, that's all. :P
Given your apparrant interest in this topic, one wonders why my thread (OBE science experiment or party trick?) was moved to pseudoscience never to be heard of again, despite the fact I actually talked about a 'real science' experiment that alleges to have duplicated the OBE effect.
http://www.thescienceforum.com/OBE-s...rick-8091t.php
Meanwhile, I also (almost) had an OBE and it was most unpleasant. I was being pulled out of my body head first, rather like being dragged out of a sleeping bag. At first, I thought it was pretty cool and was going along with the experience, but then I became afraid and began to resist. I succeeded in resisting.
I have also experienced phantom limbs after being given an epidural. (epidural resulting in complete paralysis of lower half of body for several hours)
My legs when the epidural was given were in seated position, so in bed later, despite the fact my legs were flat on the bed, I felt as though they were up in the air. As a result I could not sleep as I was too uncomfortable. It was VERY annoying that this discomfort was nothing more than a trick of my brain. But it makes you wonder how much is 'just a trick of the brain'.
I thought you only get phantom limbs if you are an amputee.
I guesss, the day you demonstrate this OBE conclusively to science it will be allowed in the science section.
so did I, but clearly that is not the case.
I am not interested in demonstrating OBE's are real. Science is busy trying to duplicate the effect so presumably they believe already that there is an 'effect'.
Meanwhile who is to know what causes that experience. Also (as seen in my threads link) there are many different types of OBE. Some are easier to explain than others.
A good scientist never jumps to conclusions ToR. If they are testing this , it shouldn't be with any preconceptions like "belief".
check the link in the other thread. The lead scientist said something like: He's not testing for what takes us out of our body, more that he's interested in what 'keeps us inside it'.A good scientist never jumps to conclusions ToR. If they are testing this , it shouldn't be with any preconceptions like "belief".
Indeed..........
Do you get what he means by that?
The experiment was presumably the latest in a long line of tests trying to recreate the experience of an OBE, so i would imagine they do have the pre-determined opinion that it is all made up in the mind. So in much the same way as you are trying to backup your claims with evidence, so are they.
Hmm I am confused, absolutely everything we think we know is made up in the mind. I have zero evidence you exist or myself for that matter .The experiment was presumably the latest in a long line of tests trying to recreate the experience of an OBE, so i would imagine they do have the pre-determined opinion that it is all made up in the mind. So in much the same way as you are trying to backup your claims with evidence, so are they.
'I think therefor I am' and all that.......
Maybe but that's getting a bit too philosophical for me. If i introduce you to someone and you can see them and shake their hand then you would believe that they are real and are not just part of your imagination or a trick of the mind. IF it can be shown (beyond reasonable doubt) to be nothing more than a trick of the mind then then that should be good enough for the vast majority of people, and obviously visa versa.
The problem with this is that when people experience something that science is not well versed on they say those people are delussional.
People who have OBE's = delussional
Clairvoyants = delussional
remote veiwers = delussional
Those who say additive free food can be tasty = delussional
Those who observe links between behaviour and certain foods with additives = delussional
( a recent topic of mine re food)
You get the picture.
In my view many people are delussional (I see them on X factor all the time) BUT what is to say that their version of reality is not 'real' for them just as ours is 'real' for us. We actually have no evidence about anything at the end of the day. Just what our 5 senses allow to think we are perceiving.
When a schitzophrenic hears a voice, they really do hear that voice.
The voice does not exist for us, or for them when medicated. The voices they hear are not shared with anyone.We already know that certain drugs can induce' hearing voices.
What would be interesting is an experiment to see if tampering with the brain could exclude some voices that we all hear.
ToR what have you to gain by bringing science down? You are not stupid, so why pretend to be? You know full well that if science had found OBE to be an actual physical occurrence that it would be only too willing to reap the rewards of that discovery.
when you say actual physical occurance what are you talking about?
I have not stated it was anything other than brain trickery as everything IS brain trickery.
Everything we percieve and experience is dictated by the brain. So if the brain dictates we are in/out or shake it all about then so it is for that person.
There are essentially two perceived realities, the one we all (mostly) seem to share and the 'other' one that we mostly do not. Is the fact that one reality is mostly shared mean it is more or less real than the one that is least? The answer to this depends on whether you are asking the individual or the group.
For the individual BOTH realities are as real whther they be mostly shared or mostly not.
For the group we tend to disregard other people's unique realities(experiences) but not our own. Thus there is a hypocritical double standard going on.
You trust that what you experience is real. You doubt that experiences that are incompatible with your own (or thw majority) are real. That is fair and reasonable. I am the same.
I believe that there is no such thing as space travel and no human has ever left the Earth's atmosphere. Everything we have observed in that regard could easily have been manufactured and be entirely false. The justification for this falsehood would be the generation of money to fund non existant projects.
I do not actually believe the above this is just an example
I 'trust' a certain amount of things for which I have NO way whatsoever of knowing are real or manufactured with the intention to deceive.
What a person believes is entirely personal and based on the information at hand. Some people blindly believe anything. Science is a good example of this. Many theories are generally accepted as gospel until something else comes along to show it was entirely false and inaccurate.
The question is should belief be suspended?
The partial OBE I experienced was 1996 but I have only told two real time humans about it and written about it twice and that was this week. I generally don't mention things that I know will automatically be dismissed as crap by others BUT on this occassion, I don't mind. It's irrelevant. I know that my whole sense of being is brain trickery, so OBE or IBE who knows really what the score is? No one.
I mean that you actually pop out of your body and do the fandango on yourself as opposed to a pure hallucination of a brain under threat of death.
No one has the answer to that.I mean that you actually pop out of your body and do the fandango on yourself as opposed to a pure hallucination of a brain under threat of death.
Meanwhile you seem to be talking here of NDE not OBE. OBE's can (allegedly) be induced. Death or threat of is not a factor.
My own opinion however is that in most cases it is brain trickery.
But there are those random few who have reported events occurring in other parts of the building while they lay unconsious in another. This is of interest to me and differs to other reports as their stories have been verified as correct.
Hearing things said while 'clinically dead' does not impress me.
So induction is not triggering the mechanism that is usually only triggered under severe stress(usually some kind of risk of death)?
[quote="Theoryofrelativity"]The key word here, maybe "few" cases.
But there are those random few who have reported events occurring in other parts of the building while they lay unconsious in another. This is of interest to me and differs to other reports as their stories have been verified as correct.
.
By chance alone, a few people out of many will guess something that coincidentally is right.
[quote="GhostofMaxwell"]The key word here, maybe "few" cases.
But there are those random few who have reported events occurring in other parts of the building while they lay unconsious in another. This is of interest to me and differs to other reports as their stories have been verified as correct.
.
By chance alone, a few people out of many will guess something that coincidentally is right.
I 'guess' it depends what it was they claimed they saw as to how possible it was that it was a successful 'guess' and not the result of some little understood occurance.
Meanwhile an alternative explanation which you will equally dislike is that they merely picked up on someone elses experience. Someone that was in the room when they awoke but absent during some point of the proceedure. A form of telepathy.
[quote="Theoryofrelativity"]Or it may be something more prosaic due to the uncontrolled conditions.The key word here, maybe "few" cases.
But there are those random few who have reported events occurring in other parts of the building while they lay unconsious in another. This is of interest to me and differs to other reports as their stories have been verified as correct.
.
By chance alone, a few people out of many will guess something that coincidentally is right.
I 'guess' it depends what it was they claimed they saw as to how possible it was that it was a successful 'guess' and not the result of some little understood occurance.
Meanwhile an alternative explanation which you will equally dislike is that they merely picked up on someone elses experience. Someone that was in the room when they awoke but absent during some point of the proceedure. A form of telepathy.
An interesting aside is, they might have actually overheard someone beside them(or walking through) talking about something in another room while unconscious or even in a coma.
you are stating the obvious
The OBE's that interest me are the ones where these OBVIOUS explanations have been ruled out.
Can I see the reports on some of these? to see what lengths they went to in insure this, and who was present during these OBE's(and under which scientific organization ) independently verified this , thus these obvious explanations could be safely ruled out.you are stating the obvious
The OBE's that interest me are the ones where these OBVIOUS explanations have been ruled out.
Do your own googling, meanwhile a quick google revealed this ancient experiment (1968)
Researcher: Charles T. Tart Psychology Department, University of California. The experiment was published in the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1968, vol. 62, no. 1, pp. 3-27.
"Abstract
A young woman (Miss Z) who frequently had spontaneous out body experiences (OBEs) was studied in a sleep laboratory for four nights. She reported several partially out experiences and two full ones. While the physiological data are limited by dependence on her retrospective report in correlating physiological pattern with the experience, it seems as if her out experiences occurred in conjunction with a non-dreaming, non-awake brain wave stage characterized by predominant slowed alpha activity from her brain and no activation of the autonomic nervous system. Two incidents occurring in the laboratory provide suggestive evidence that the out of-the-body experiences had parapsychological concomitants.
.........
Preliminary Experiment
My (Charles Tart's) interest in OBE experiences has two separate facets. On one level, I am interested in such experiences as a unique, psychological experience, possibly related to nocturnal dreaming. On another level, I am interested in the extrasensory aspects of the experience: in some OBE experiences the person reports accurate information about the distant localities he seemed to be at, and such information would apparently have to have been acquired by some form of extrasensory perception. Thus we have a unique psychological experience worthy of study in its own right, as well as an experience that often seems to have parapsychological aspects.
Laboratory Procedure
I (Charles Tart) was able to observe Miss Z in my sleep laboratory for four non-consecutive nights, over a period of approximately two months. The procedure was essentially the same on all nights, and will be described here. Miss Z's electroencephalogram (EEG) was recorded each night.
Recording was continuous through the night on a Grass model VII polygraph, running at a speed of ten millimeters per second. Rapid eye movements (REMs) were recorded by means of a miniature strain gauge, taped over the right eyelid. This technique for recording REMs is described in detail elsewhere (4, 58). Movement of the eye under the closed eyelid distorts the strain gauge and a corresponding electrical output is recorded on the Grass polygraph. This combination of two EEG channels and a REM channel is typical in sleep studies and allows one to discriminate the various stages of sleep, including dreaming sleep.
Basal skin resistance (BSR) was also recorded on the Grass polygraph. Silver-silver chloride electrodes were used, one on the thenar eminence of the palm of the right hand, the other on the right forearm.
The sleep laboratory consisted of two rooms, each lined with acoustic tile for sound attenuation. A large window was between the rooms for viewing, but in this experiment it was covered with a Venetian blind in order that the subject's room could be reasonably dark for sleeping. This blind allowed enough light to come through so that the subject's room was dimly illuminated, but not enough to disturb sleep.
The polygraphs were located in the second room, and the door was kept closed. An intercom system allowed hearing anything the subject said. I monitored the recording equipment throughout the night while the subject slept and kept notes of anything she said or did. Occasionally I dozed during the night, beside the equipment, so possible instances of sleep talking might have been missed.
The subject slept on a comfortable bed just below the observation window. The leads from all electrodes were bound into a common cable running off the top of her head, and terminating in an electrode box on the head of the bed. This arrangement allowed her enough slack wire so that she could turn over in bed and otherwise be comfortable, but did not allow her to sit up more than two feet without disconnecting the wires from the box, an event which would show up on the recording equipment as a tremendous amount of sixty cycle artifact. Thus her movements were well controlled.
Immediately above the observation window (about five and a half feet above the level of the subject's head) was a small shelf (about ten inches by five inches). Immediately above this shelf was a large clock, mounted on the wall.
Each laboratory night, after the subject was lying in bed, the physiological recordings were running satisfactorily, and she was ready to go to sleep, I went into my office down the hall, opened a table of random numbers at random, threw a coin onto the table as a means of random entry into the page, and copied off the first five digits immediately above where the coin landed. These were copied with a black marking pen, in figures approximately two inches high, onto a small piece of paper. Thus they were quite discrete visually.
This five-digit random number constituted the parapsychological target for the evening. I then slipped it into an opaque folder, entered the subject's room, and slipped the piece of paper onto the shelf without at any time exposing it to the subject. This now provided a target which would be clearly visible to anyone whose eyes were located approximately six and a half feet off the floor or higher, but was otherwise not visible to the subject.
The subject was instructed to sleep well, to try and have an OBE experience, and if she did so to try to wake up immediately afterwards and tell me about it, so I could note on the polygraph records when it had occurred. She was also told that if she floated high enough to read the five-digit number she should memorize it and wake up immediately afterwards to tell me what it was.
My conversation with Miss Z after I had prepared the target was, of course, minimal and could not have given her any clue as to the target number. In future experiments, however, it would be preferable for a second experimenter, who had had no contact at all with the subject, to prepare the targets.
Night IV - The Break-through
On reporting to the laboratory on the fourth night, Miss Z seemed to be determined to have the right kind of OBE experience. Although I had indicated complete satisfaction with her performance so far, she was angry at herself because she had not been able to float up and read the target number. Miss Z went quickly to sleep, entering Stages 3 and 4 less than fifteen minutes after going to bed.
The night was uneventful for the most part - there were several Stage 1 dream periods in the first two-thirds of the night, as would be expected for any normal subject. After four and a half hours of sleep, she had a Stage 1 dream period with REMs which lasted for half an hour. The EEG was technically rather poor on this night, being obscured with a great deal of sixty cycle artifact and requiring rather heavy high frequency filtering to make it clear, so the EEG findings should be taken with the realization that they are subject to more error than usual.
Miss Z's Stage 1 dream terminated with several minutes of intermittent body movements and EEG artifact. Then (at 5:50 A.M.) the occipital channel showed an enlarged, slow wave artifact, the REM channel showed no REMs, and the record looked like a Stage I tracing; however, I could not be sure due to the considerations mentioned above. At 5:57 A.M. the slow wave artifact was lessened and the record looked somewhat like Stage 1 with REMs, but I could not be sure whether this was a waking or a Stage I record.
This lasted until 6:04 A.M., at which time Miss Z awoke and called out that the target number was 25132.
This was correct (with the digits in correct order), but I did not say anything to her at this point; I merely indicated that I had written the number down on the record. "
This is by far NOT the best example as it represents a rather poorly conducted experiment,.
Meanwhile you are a non believer and I have no desire to convert you. Thus this matter of providing you with satisfactory 'evidence' is not worth any more of my time. I mean that in the nicest possible way.
Why do you always have to give me a novel to read, ToR?
give me a week....and I'll be back.
You asked for it. Your request was very specific and detailed. It didn't take me long to read.
Meanwhile no need to read, the experiment is pants. You'll find a million flaws.
If there was an 'acceptable' 'flawless' experiment, we'd know about it by now.
Greetings female, how have you been?You asked for it. Your request was very specific and detailed. It didn't take me long to read.
Meanwhile no need to read, the experiment is pants. You'll find a million flaws.
If there was an 'acceptable' 'flawless' experiment, we'd know about it by now.
Yeah sees a female alright:
Meanwhile no need to read, the experiment is pants. You'll find a million flaws.
If there was an 'acceptable' 'flawless' experiment, we'd know about it by now.
Thanks for admitting it though.
I'm alright thanks. Are you missing sciforums? They were visited by the space man you know. You can read all about it in the News. Meanwhile, should you retain your interest in writing I have new resource for wanabee writers here:Greetings female, how have you been?You asked for it. Your request was very specific and detailed. It didn't take me long to read.
Meanwhile no need to read, the experiment is pants. You'll find a million flaws.
If there was an 'acceptable' 'flawless' experiment, we'd know about it by now.
www.writersadvice.blogspot.com
Dear Theory of relativity,Given your apparrant interest in this topic, one wonders why my thread (OBE science experiment or party trick?) was moved to pseudoscience never to be heard of again, despite the fact I actually talked about a 'real science' experiment that alleges to have duplicated the OBE effect.
http://www.thescienceforum.com/OBE-s...rick-8091t.php
Meanwhile, I also (almost) had an OBE and it was most unpleasant. I was being pulled out of my body head first, rather like being dragged out of a sleeping bag. At first, I thought it was pretty cool and was going along with the experience, but then I became afraid and began to resist. I succeeded in resisting.
I have also experienced phantom limbs after being given an epidural. (epidural resulting in complete paralysis of lower half of body for several hours)
My legs when the epidural was given were in seated position, so in bed later, despite the fact my legs were flat on the bed, I felt as though they were up in the air. As a result I could not sleep as I was too uncomfortable. It was VERY annoying that this discomfort was nothing more than a trick of my brain. But it makes you wonder how much is 'just a trick of the brain'.
Thank you for your interest and input on this topic.
I am short on time today, but I hope to tell you more about my experience when I have more time to do that.
Thank you,
Tim
Thank you for reading my thoughts,
I have an idea on how we can communicate with future out of body afterlife people in a way that can be measured, and if science is truly interested in making this happen in a timely manner, they should change the way they think about the topic.
Theory of relativity gets it to a point, because he has done a lot of home work on the topic, othere have not.
The first thing you need to do is watch all of Lisa Williams video's on Life Time before we go any further.
http://videos.lifetimetv.com/?fr_chl...ade3968f7435e8
Thank you,
Tim
ahem *cough cough*
I am a 'female' - this is why I get so much stick
I shall check your link.
Science is not interested in changing anything based on a claim. Certainly not changing science itself.
you'd be wrong thenScience is not interested in changing anything based on a claim. Certainly not changing science itself.
as there are MANY scientific institutes that operate purely to investigate and study OBE's. None you'd consider valid as that's the way you think, but they are run by qualified scientists. The one I am thinking of said the same as Tim, that the only way to prove it to satisfaction of conventional scientists is to have a device which enables direct communication with the OBE self. Which is they predict a long way off! But they do measure other things.
The experiment I detailed showed on such way but the experiment was flawed. I suspect all experiments are, but the if the results satisfy conventional thinking then the experiment stands.
No I wouldnt be wrong ToR
The whole bases of science, is the scientific method. If you compromise that as Tim is hinting at, You stop becoming a scientist and become a faith-believer.
Not everything can be studied by the present scientific method though GM. Non physical things cannot be studied in a manner which satisfies conventional science. What is needed is an update of how you do things to incorporate the other things of a non physical nature that occur in the world. Broaden your horizons and get out of the dark ages.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of what you 'believe' as a scientist has not been proven, but you believe it none the less. You have faith in those 'men' who say it is so and those that agree with them.What is your response to this?
Superstitious clap trap to promote further superstition!
so you have no responseSuperstitious clap trap to promote further superstition!
ploppy
ToR you cant expect science to lean towards spirituality and still be science. There is nothing dark age about that.
Its that methodology that has got us exploring the solar system and computers and all sorts of advancement. Did your faith in spirituality do anything remotely comparable over the centuries?
I win
wewibbleweeee
How is it changing science?Science is not interested in changing anything based on a claim. Certainly not changing science itself.
Science should first listen to what I have to say, before they decide one way or the other. Anything else is bad communications on their part.
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