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Thread: Hi. Is someone interested in discussing about the "behaviour of waves

  1. #1 Hi. Is someone interested in discussing about the "behaviour of waves 
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    How can we define photons, because we cannot consider it just as energy because all types of energy need a medium needs a medium(mass) to show its effectw


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    You are trying to go back to an either theory.
    The either is not needed and can be safely discarded.


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    Hey i am just trying to ask that when a ray of light strikes any object it reflects back .. so it will transfer its momentum(energy) to object and as it has transferred its energy will it lose its own energy and if it does so then in which form it loses energy
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    You are trying to go back to an either theory.
    The either is not needed and can be safely discarded.
    I think that the theory of ether is reinstated in merely different terms now. So this can't be used to dismiss the question posed.

    @zarvezz,

    You have to think of all matter and energy as being one and the same. It is like comparing nouns to verbs where we can create one from the other depending in context and the perception we want to convey. Energy is simply a measure of the change of matter, as originally understood. Then, it was realized that even matter represents energy of smaller forms of 'matter' in which the subatomic particles are constantly 'cycling' locally (changing with respect to itself). As such it was realized that if such sub-component particles can be released from their localized relationship to these atoms, they can 'escape' and act to cause change externally (released energy).

    Light can therefore be understood as a particular form of subatomic 'matter' that gets released and becomes 'energy' (a source to cause change to another [form of] matter). A 'photon' is just a way of describing the quantifiable amount of energy that can be transferred like making a noun into a verb. For example, the verb, "walk" can become the noun, "walking", to represent the static (or material) idea of the action (or energy) of the term.

    With regards to a 'medium', I think that you are correct but that what people understood in the days of the "ether" within the language of physics, they assumed that further matter of the same kind of matter that we understood then should be present. They have since learned that even though there is no matter akin to the atomic-sized chemicals that we normally relate to, a 'material' nature still exists to space itself. It is just not of the same degree to which we normally reference matter as we do. But since matter and energy are one and the same, you can even think of the conventional waves of energy through matter as just a difference of change (energy) through the similar sized particles. In space, it might be true that there are even smaller and smaller subdivisions of particles that exist as a potential 'medium'. But you can also think of reducing the potential 'matter' in space that might act as a medium as approaching zero in size everywhere. That is, even if space may be considered "nothing", it is still reasonably "something" but only represents the possibility of never-ending smaller particles if they should exist.
    Last edited by Scott Mayers; September 12th, 2014 at 06:37 PM. Reason: added words for clarity
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    Scott, if you are going to write such long walls of text, may I recommend that you check your grammar. Several of your sentences are so corrupted by poor grammar that they are, at best ambiguous, at worst unintelligible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarvezz View Post
    Hey i am just trying to ask that when a ray of light strikes any object it reflects back .. so it will transfer its momentum(energy) to object and as it has transferred its energy will it lose its own energy and if it does so then in which form it loses energy
    oh poopy, I just noticed I typed either instead of ether, oh well.

    OK, maybe you are thinking of Compton scattering, or about radiant heating?
    Possibly the Photoelectric effect?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Scott, if you are going to write such long walls of text, may I recommend that you check your grammar. Several of your sentences are so corrupted by poor grammar that they are, at best ambiguous, at worst unintelligible.
    I'll try. But if you can help by pointing out where you are confused, I might be able to address it better. Different cultures use slight alterations in grammar. I also have been trying to deviate from some of those odd things like requiring end punctuation to be placed within a quoted bracket, "like this". <-- instead of "like this." But I'm not sure what precisely you are referring to as being confusing above. I did add two words above if that was the problem. Did that help? Thanks.
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    Listen to the self professed GOD John Galt. Hial him and and obey his grammer. Did I speel that indcerecttally? Joan? Yo are not being a nice person Mr. John Galt, so think about it.

    Maybe if you would act and speak nicely to people, you would not have to have a saddened Avatar.
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    Mayflow, you seem to beg to be banned, and then bitch when it happens.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    I seem to speak my mind.
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  12. #11  
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    ...and now, back to our regular programming...
    If you are still there Xarvezz, I believe the change in the energy of light is seen as a change in frequency because light doesn't change speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    ...and now, back to our regular programming...
    If you are still there Xarvezz, I believe the change in the energy of light is seen as a change in frequency because light doesn't change speed.

    Light does change speed though, unless it is in a vacuum, and the different frequencies of light are affected differently because they have different wavelengths. This is not just true about visible light but electromagnetic waves of both much higher and lower frequencies than that of visible (to our eyes) light spectrums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    ...and now, back to our regular programming...
    If you are still there Xarvezz, I believe the change in the energy of light is seen as a change in frequency because light doesn't change speed.

    Light does change speed though, unless it is in a vacuum, and the different frequencies of light are affected differently because they have different wavelengths. This is not just true about visible light but electromagnetic waves of both much higher and lower frequencies than that of visible (to our eyes) light spectrums.
    I don't think he was asking about refraction, though maybe he was Mayflow.
    It is kind of hard to tell because he only responded to the one comment and then you, John, and AlexG started up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Listen to the self professed GOD John Galt. Hial him and and obey his grammer. Did I speel that indcerecttally? Joan? Yo are not being a nice person Mr. John Galt, so think about it.

    Maybe if you would act and speak nicely to people, you would not have to have a saddened Avatar.
    Moderator Comment: Cut the stupid, mindless bitching. I cannot even keep track of the number of complaints received by the mod team about your vacuous, self-deluded behaviour. You are a pain in the butt, a drain on this forum's resources, apparently incapable of being educated and disinterested in actual science. You are the kind of person that give crazy people a bad name.

    The next time you post any of your childish junk I shall assume it is a request for a long holiday.

    Edit: Apparently Harold beat me to it. Think long and hard about how you behave when and if you return. This is a forum for adults, not spoilt brats.
    Last edited by John Galt; September 13th, 2014 at 04:43 AM.
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    I just did give May a long holiday before I saw John post this.
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    First of all i would like to thanks everyone for giving me a response,
    Now when it comes to energy and matter, In a broad concept they surely are one and the same things but still the term energy we normally use can be just explained by "change of matter with respect to space " .Although energy cannot be confined to only this definition but energy and mater is again a different topic of discussion which we will consider later.

    Here I am talking about waves , which can be considered as very very small particles (but still a sort of matter) with extremely high velocity and as their velocity is much higher than their mass they are addressed as energy more than mass.
    It's not about reflection or refraction but it is about the fact that light being a particle ( although very small) should transfer its energy to other particle on collision(which is not true because then a time should come when light(wave) should left with no energy).
    Which in reflection could be seen directly ..
    My question is about the weird behaviour of waves in which it doesn't show the behaviour that a particle with high speed should show

    And sorry for being too late to reply. ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarvezz View Post
    F

    It's not about reflection or refraction but it is about the fact that light being a particle ( although very small) should transfer its energy to other particle on collision(which is not true because then a time should come when light(wave) should left with no energy).
    Which in reflection could be seen directly ..
    My question is about the weird behaviour of waves in which it doesn't show the behaviour that a particle with high speed should show

    And sorry for being too late to reply. ..
    But light does transfer its energy and does eventually lose all of its energy.
    That is what the photoelectric effect and Compton scattering are all about.
    Photoelectric effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Compton scattering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    When you look into it you will find there are all sorts of interactions light has with other matter where energy is exchanged.
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    okay thanks i have studied about the compton effect but it still will not explain the condition when in space (because in space there is no extra energy) a light ray enters a glass slab (denser medium) it loses its speed (possibly because it transfer its energy to the particles of glass slab) but then the problem comes when it moves out of the glass slab because then it regains its speed so from where the light gets the energy that i attains its speed back
    Last edited by xarvezz; September 22nd, 2014 at 02:11 PM.
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    In the glass slab the photons are absorbed by atoms, raising electrons to higher orbitals. The electrons then drop back down, emitting photons in the process. The photons, incoming and outgoing are both traveling at c. The apparent reduction in the velocity of light is due to the time lost in this absorption and emission process. This process is so well understood that even I have heard of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarvezz View Post
    okay thanks i have studied about the compton effect but it still will not explain the condition when in space (because in space there is no extra energy) a light ray enters a glass slab (denser medium) it loses its speed (possibly because it transfer its energy to the particles of glass slab) but then the problem comes when it moves out of the glass slab because then it regains its speed so from where the light gets the energy that i attains its speed back
    Suggest you look up "refractive index" and then "group velocity" and "phase velocity", to understand better what is going on.

    It's true that the quantum theory explanation of refractive index is not that easy to understand. However if you understand that the energy of a photon is determined by its frequency (E = hf) and that frequency does not change when light enters a different medium, it may help you understand that no energy is lost.
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    Okay thanks for everyones help i think i would have to study whole quantum physics for this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarvezz View Post
    okay thanks i have studied about the compton effect but it still will not explain the condition when in space (because in space there is no extra energy) a light ray enters a glass slab (denser medium) it loses its speed (possibly because it transfer its energy to the particles of glass slab) but then the problem comes when it moves out of the glass slab because then it regains its speed so from where the light gets the energy that i attains its speed back
    Doesn't it have no mass so it can speed up without any extra energy.
    It is not like massive objects following the rule E = 1/2 mv^2
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