Notices
Results 1 to 27 of 27
Like Tree6Likes
  • 1 Post By Strange
  • 2 Post By scheherazade
  • 1 Post By Lynx_Fox
  • 2 Post By Lynx_Fox

Thread: Driving in the states..or else where

  1. #1 Driving in the states..or else where 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    537
    I was wondering what rules applied in the US and other countries regarding driving or insurance cover.

    Here in the UK, a person can learn to drive at the age of 17 years but their insurance (after passing test/ exam) is ridiculously high, some quotes are as high as £2000 per year for accident cover etc. This is way, way more than the price tag of some vehicles they drive, but they are seen as high risk of having an accident due to being a young, new driver.

    I think it is wrong, as they are deemed as problematic or being penalised before they even do anything wrong. Insurance companies are probably laughing all the way to the bank.

    Do the same rules apply where you live?

    Could you perhaps give a little info on how your policies/laws work.

    Thanks.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    喫茶店
    Posts
    17,036
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    they are seen as high risk of having an accident due to being a young, new driver.

    I think it is wrong
    Perhaps you can share the statistics you used to determine that the insurance companies have got this wrong?


    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    In Pennsylvania you can get a learner's permit at the age of 16, then after passing a test after 6 months, you can get a license. The insurance rates for teenagers are higher than for adults. It's less if they are driving a cheaper car, but there's still the liability if they hit someone else. Not all teenage drivers are unsafe, but the insurance companies have to go with the odds. They're not in business to lose money.
    Average Car Insurance Rates for Teenagers - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    喫茶店
    Posts
    17,036
    In the UK, some insurance companies offer discounts for drivers who have a"black box" fitted to their car that monitors how and when they drive. Young drivers who drive carefully and during the day can get much lower premiums.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Why is it wrong? I don't know about elsewhere but here we have to declare each year on renewals for insurance whether the car will be driven by anyone under 25. If so, the premium is higher.

    Insurance companies compete with each other and they all employ very careful actuaries who work out down to the last few cents what the liabilities are likely to be and how much / how little they need to charge in premiums to both get business and to avoid losses.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    喫茶店
    Posts
    17,036
    The EU has recently decided that it is illegal to make these sorts of actuarial decisions based on sex, so men and women have to be charged the same premium despite having noticeably different accident rates. I suppose it could be argued that they shouldn't be allowed to discriminate (i.e. make an informed decision) on the basis of age either.
    hannah40 likes this.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Key West, Florida, Earth
    Posts
    4,788
    I just drove a motorcycle for awhile which where I lived did not require insurance. Statistically younger drivers are the ones responsible for the majority of all accidents in America so that is why the young are made to pay higher premiums.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    537
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    they are seen as high risk of having an accident due to being a young, new driver.

    I think it is wrong
    Perhaps you can share the statistics you used to determine that the insurance companies have got this wrong?
    It is wrong to assume that all new drivers will be a liability or be more likely to have a crash. Not all of them do. They should be given the benefit of the doubt, until they prove otherwise.

    Even our emergency vehicles don't have insurance cover as such, they just pay out if they are involved in a accident but I've heard some stories about people trying to claim from them.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    537
    I've never had one accident in my years of driving, so, all the money I have handed over has gone straight to the insurers. Where is my incentive or rebate for good behaviour? We get no claims bonus but that isn't worth much.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Yukon, Canada
    Posts
    4,066
    Here in the Yukon we now have a rather comprehensive and time consuming course for new drivers which I believe also helps to reduce their insurance premiums through successful completion.

    • 1

      Make Sure that You Meet the Yukon Drivers License Requirements

      If you want to have a drivers license of your own you will have to meet specific requirements. Each Canadian province and territory sets their own requirements so make sure that you find out the specific information for your area. In Yukon you can start the licensing process at 15. If you are a young driver you will need to go through the graduated licensing program. This program helps ensure that young drivers get the practice they need to be as safe as possible on the road. It will walk you through various steps until you are ready to receive an official license to drive without restriction.
    Yukon Drivers License Requirements and Things to Know

    As others have mentioned, insurance premiums can be somewhat reduced by having an older, paid for vehicle and only insuring for public liability and public damage. The premium will still be higher until experience has been gained, though, because the numbers tell the story and it is inexperience (mostly young drivers) that are involved in a majority of incidents.

    From a simple math perspective, the system is fair.
    If you are a very responsible human being, it certainly does not seem that way.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    喫茶店
    Posts
    17,036
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    It is wrong to assume that all new drivers will be a liability or be more likely to have a crash. Not all of them do.
    That isn't what they are doing.

    They should be given the benefit of the doubt, until they prove otherwise.
    Right. And all home insurance should be the same price, regardless of the crime rate in your area, until you personally get burgled.

    I've never had one accident in my years of driving, so, all the money I have handed over has gone straight to the insurers.
    How do you think insurance works? Those who don't need to claim provide the funds to pay for those who do.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    537
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    It is wrong to assume that all new drivers will be a liability or be more likely to have a crash. Not all of them do.
    That isn't what they are doing.

    They should be given the benefit of the doubt, until they prove otherwise.
    Right. And all home insurance should be the same price, regardless of the crime rate in your area, until you personally get burgled.

    I've never had one accident in my years of driving, so, all the money I have handed over has gone straight to the insurers.
    How do you think insurance works? Those who don't need to claim provide the funds to pay for those who do.
    You can't make peoples home insurance the same because of contents difference etc...

    Behaviour is what is being measured in determining insurance cover.

    I would like to know out of all the young drivers how many actually haven't been involved in accidents. We only see the comparison of age groups and not the overall amount of drivers.

    I hate statistics because they can be manipulated in so many ways.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    537
    Quote Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
    Here in the Yukon we now have a rather comprehensive and time consuming course for new drivers which I believe also helps to reduce their insurance premiums through successful completion.

    • 1

      Make Sure that You Meet the Yukon Drivers License Requirements

      If you want to have a drivers license of your own you will have to meet specific requirements. Each Canadian province and territory sets their own requirements so make sure that you find out the specific information for your area. In Yukon you can start the licensing process at 15. If you are a young driver you will need to go through the graduated licensing program. This program helps ensure that young drivers get the practice they need to be as safe as possible on the road. It will walk you through various steps until you are ready to receive an official license to drive without restriction.
    Yukon Drivers License Requirements and Things to Know

    As others have mentioned, insurance premiums can be somewhat reduced by having an older, paid for vehicle and only insuring for public liability and public damage. The premium will still be higher until experience has been gained, though, because the numbers tell the story and it is inexperience (mostly young drivers) that are involved in a majority of incidents.

    From a simple math perspective, the system is fair.
    If you are a very responsible human being, it certainly does not seem that way.
    They can fit a 'black box' here which can tell the insurer more about the drivers habits/behaviours etc....then there is a 'pass plus' feature which you can take after passing your test, it is a further test which if you take it (at cost) can reduce your insurance premiuums as it racks up more hours of experienced driving.


    Also, we never, ever once have to drive on a motorway during learning or on a test but as soon as we pass, we are legal to drive on a motorway where we have never driven before. It is similar to dual carriageway but more scary lol.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Yukon, Canada
    Posts
    4,066
    Part of the problem lies in the very fact that you can get a license without having to experience the full range of real life driving experiences. I was thinking "WTF?" several times on the way to work this morning, lol...

    First, someone pulls out into morning traffic with an old car towing a heavy old travel trailer. The campground they are exiting is at the bottom of a hill and they expect to reach flow speed of 100 kph in 6 seconds? Once on the level, their top speed was 78 kph and very few places to pass or let traffic by on that stretch but we were second behind them and so had an early opportunity.

    At the intersection with the Alaska Highway where we exit to town, we have to merge with traffic. Some bozo decides to pull a right hand side pass in the merge lane as they are running out of room. Everyone else had respectfully dovetailed and signaled their intentions.

    Driving down 4th Ave, one of our main routes, I had to slow traffic behind me as a pedestrian decided to amble across the road on a diagonal between corners, taking a full half block to negotiate the transit. Whether senile or under the influence, I am not sure, but we all patiently respected their right of passage.

    Today, on dry pavement, none of these was overly problematic because traction was good but it could have been a lot more uncertain on icy winter roads or with distracted drivers on cell phones or texting. The following link is worth a quick look...as long as you are not driving.

    http://www.textinganddrivingsafety.c...driving-stats/
    Last edited by scheherazade; May 29th, 2014 at 12:50 PM.
    astromark and hannah40 like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    537
    23% of accidents were because of mobile phone usage....that's bloody high

    I don't know how they do it. It's like people who smoke and eat whilst driving. I like two hands on the wheel.

    I enjoy driving. I do miss it now.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    23% of accidents were because of mobile phone usage....that's bloody high
    And inaccurate. While it might be true that 23% involved mobile phone usage, that is the not the same as making a causal connection (the because in your statement). You might also point out the 80% that involve listening to the radio, or the 50% that involve driving with one hand off the wheel. I'm not doubting that mobile phone usage does raise accidents, but the figure and implication is probably oversold. It might be better to consider it a common distraction of many possible that draw our attention away from driving and increase the chance of causing an accident or inability to avoid one.

    --
    Most of the OP questions have been answered, most state laws allow licensing between 16 or 17, with some starting six months earlier if the new driver takes a driver's education course. The uniformity of licensing, laws and record keeping has improved dramatically over the past 30 years; I got my first licence at 15 and my first commercial license at 16 after an adult spent a few hours with me, he himself having six difference licensed from separate states so he could accumulate spread and avoid reporting speeding tickets to his insurance. Times have changed.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; May 30th, 2014 at 05:29 PM.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,015
    ~ I looked at the link provided... and wow if those numbers are matched by stats.. 'Enforcement' of legislation is not so easy..
    Stand at any busy intersection and just watch the texting and cell phone use.. and it is illegal in NZ. A $ 80 instant fine..
    but the police them selves are seen doing it.. How do you suggest it be controlled. ? Can it be ?. Could a engine running switching device be installed.. Some sort of signal block.. Back seat passengers should be allowed to do whatever.. any passengers.. Only the driver is at issue.. People are and will be stupid. There can be no cure for stupid.. and can you say you have NOT done it ?

    ~ Moving on to insurance; Australia has a compulsory third party cover done with registration of a licensing period of the motor vehicle..
    N Z does not.. How so the US and England ?..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    ~ Moving on to insurance; Australia has a compulsory third party cover done with registration of a licensing period of the motor vehicle..
    N Z does not.. How so the US and England ?..
    Depends on the state. In most states it's required, but it varies a lot by degree of coverage and exceptions such as a wealthy person might be allowed to show they can afford a claim against them.

    Some states now also include laws to minimize distraction of new drivers by passengers, sometimes by specifying no other minor be in the vehicle. And I can say I've never used a cell phone while driving because I don't have a personal one (I consider that pretty worthless) and would usually leave the Army issued one I had for while turned off most of the time.
    astromark likes this.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    ox
    ox is offline
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    2,115
    England has so many people driving without insurance that about 10% of the premium legal motorists pay is to insure against these idiots. There is also a criminal element who will arrange crashes in order to get money.
    Saw what must have been a fatal accident only this week in a restricted speed zone. However I think some other places must be more dangerous. Like NZ for instance.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    2,051
    Texas has mandatory liability insurance. You have to show proof to renew your license or tags. We also have a problem with illegal aliens driving without insurance...which drives up the cost for everyone.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,809
    New Hampshire has no mandatory insurance.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,444
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    a person can learn to drive at the age of 17 years but their insurance (after passing test/ exam) is ridiculously high
    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    It is wrong to assume that all new drivers will be a liability
    More accurately, I think it's a matter that the safety record of new drivers is an unknown quantity.

    I remember taking driving lessons. One of the students was a lady in her 50's who was learning to drive for the first time. When the instructor told her to prepare to drive, she didn't know what to do first: put on her seat belt, adjust the mirrors, or start the engine. After we dropped her off at her home, the instructor told us that that was her 24th lesson.

    Alternately, experienced drivers with a good safety record should be recognized and allowed to pay lower premiums. Why should they be penalized?

    It's like health insurance. Why should I, a male, be required to pay a premium for health insurance that covers ovarian cancer, hysterectomies, etc when clearly I will never suffer from those female things? Or women whose insurance covers male problems such as prostate problems, ED, etc?
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,809
    The highest percentage of accidents in the US occur among 25 -- 34 year olds.

    http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s1114.pdf
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Flatland
    Posts
    5,438
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    In the UK, some insurance companies offer discounts for drivers who have a"black box" fitted to their car that monitors how and when they drive. Young drivers who drive carefully and during the day can get much lower premiums.
    Progressive had an option to fit a device to your car to adjust your rates. Despite not wanting someone else's electronics transmitting from my vehicle because I wear a tin foil hat, they have absurd ways to measure whether or not you're "safe". If you brake too hard (say, if a baby runs out in front of your car carrying a basket of kittens and you're a responsible driver who doesn't want to run them over) then you get penalized. It's not situational.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    The highest percentage of accidents in the US occur among 25 -- 34 year olds.

    http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s1114.pdf
    Interest. But it makes more sense when you look at the accidents per driver and accident per mile broken down by age groups where the 25 year olds get into less than half the accidents of younger drivers.
    jrmonroe and adelady like this.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,444
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    it makes more sense when you look at the accidents per driver and accident per mile broken down by age groups where the 25 year olds get into less than half the accidents of younger drivers.
    Yes, when we use statistics, we need to ensure that it answers the question we're really asking.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dogbox in front of Dywyddyr's house.
    Posts
    1,786
    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    it makes more sense when you look at the accidents per driver and accident per mile broken down by age groups where the 25 year olds get into less than half the accidents of younger drivers.
    Yes, when we use statistics, we need to ensure that it answers the question we're really asking.
    Statistics are always inaccurate most of the time.
    "MODERATOR NOTE : We don't entertain trolls here, not even in the trash can. Banned." -Markus Hanke
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. The Driving Force of Life
    By IAlexN in forum Biology
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: May 14th, 2010, 02:42 PM
  2. driving fusion with fission?
    By dejawolf in forum Physics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: May 29th, 2009, 11:50 AM
  3. driving as fast as I want
    By theQuestIsNotOver in forum Physics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: August 18th, 2008, 05:59 AM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •