intermediate between "Existence" (living + Non Living + Virus) and "Nothingness"

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 05:24 AM

There are many intermediates in this universe . No?

like what is intermediate between energy and matter?

what is intermediate between living and non - living? Virus?

what is intermediate between plants and animals? Euglena?

This new idea happened to me tonight.

Have you ever thought about intermediate between "Existence" (living + Non Living + Virus) and "Nothingness"

Something (I am unable to classify this, so I called it as Something) which/who has ability to exist and not to exist at same time. Like virus can switch between being living and non - living.

(this is never a Religious topic, so avoid any religious ideas. sorry in advance to all theists.)

Related Discussions:

**Pong** · January 3rd, 2014, 05:32 AM

Inspired by the false dichotomy thread were you?

So is a tree stump an intermediate between existence and nothingness?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by Pong

Inspired by the false dichotomy thread were you?

So is a tree stump an intermediate between existence and nothingness?

yes , inspired by that thread.

tree stump clearly exists. It is not intermediate.

Have you read clearly what I am asking?

**Strange** · January 3rd, 2014, 05:43 AM

How about an idea: it doesn't exist but it isn't nothing either.

Or software: that also has no physical existence.

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Strange

How about an idea: it doesn't exist but it isn't nothing either.

Or software: that also has no physical existence.

Hey pong: see... this is called a reply.
Strange great reply.

I think software exists. if it does not exist how it help in running computer?
Gravity exists . No?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by Strange

How about an idea: it doesn't exist but it isn't nothing either.

same thing, in other words. "Intermediate between being in "existence" and being in "Nothingness". Neither of them. No? If you say something different I could not understand you. please clarify

**Strange** · January 3rd, 2014, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

I think software exists.

Really? How much does it weigh? What is it made of?

Perhaps you need to define what you mean by "exist"?

**Pong** · January 3rd, 2014, 05:57 AM

You mean intangibles? Now I understand your caution this isn't a religious debate: Prove the existence of this "software" you believe in.

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by Pong

You mean intangibles? Now I understand your caution this isn't a religious debate: Prove the existence of this "software" you believe in.

I am not proving anything dear. i am not die hard .
It is not intangible.
I am asking is there anything which can switch between Existence and nothingness?
And I am learning from your replies. remember that.

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Strange

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

I think software exists.

Really? How much does it weigh? What is it made of?

Perhaps you need to define what you mean by "exist"?

"Exist" means being in presence........ (like Living+ Non Living + virus)
"Existence of software ". I am typing and posting here on this forum is the evidence that software exists. No?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Strange

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

I think software exists.

Really? How much does it weigh? What is it made of?

Hey come on strange. This "tangibility" is small issue while we talk about existence and nothingness. Like gravity pulls us to earth similiarly software helps us to run computer.

**Strange** · January 3rd, 2014, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

"Exist" means being in presence........

Not a very helpful definition. I'm not even sure what it means. How do you test if something is "in presence" or not?

"Existence of software ". I am typing and posting here on this forum is the evidence that software exists. No?

As I say, can you touch it? Does it have any physical properties? Do beauty or truth exist? More worryingly, does hope exist?

**Strange** · January 3rd, 2014, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Hey come on strange. This "tangibility" is small issue while we talk about existence and nothingness.

I would have thought it was pretty fundamental. But it comes back to what you mean by existence.

Like gravity pulls us to earth similiarly software helps us to run computer.

Does gravity exist? Is it a force? Or is just the geometry of space time (and so, has no separate existence).

**Pong** · January 3rd, 2014, 07:20 AM

"has ability to exist and not to exist at same time. Like virus can switch between being living and non - living"
The first statement contradicts the second, doesn't it? Because first it's the same time, then second it's switching... i.e. it's both then it's either.

So do you mean something that toggles "is" and "is not"?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Pong

"has ability to exist and not to exist at same time. Like virus can switch between being living and non - living"
The first statement contradicts the second, doesn't it? Because first it's the same time, then second it's switching... i.e. it's both then it's either.

I gave example of virus to tell you that it has ability to be changed from Non-living to a Living form if certain conditions in the nature is met. Virus is an anomaly in nature while we classify "Things". Things can be either living or non living. two extremes. This is how something exist. Our universe exists.
Virus is not both at same time. it switches. Simple

So do you mean something that toggles "is" and "is not"?

Virus is always. It exists. So it is false to say that it "is not". It only changes form.

Why don't you understand It is not Virus which is important, it is debate on "Existence and Nothingness". Yes I know that concept of Nothingness is very difficult to define. But I will put it as "complete absence of anything". Nothingness and intangibility are not same. keep that in mind.

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Strange

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Hey come on strange. This "tangibility" is small issue while we talk about existence and nothingness.

I would have thought it was pretty fundamental. But it comes back to what you mean by existence.

Nothingness is not related to intangibility.

Does gravity exist? Is it a force? Or is just the geometry of space time (and so, has no separate existence).

Yes , but it exists.

Originally Posted by Strange

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

"Exist" means being in presence........

Not a very helpful definition. I'm not even sure what it means. How do you test if something is "in presence" or not?

matter is present, energy is present, light is present, sound is present. And we can differentiate them due to their level of effect on Nature. Like you said about gravity. By the way this was new for me. thanks

As I say, can you touch it? Does it have any physical properties? Do beauty or truth exist? More worryingly, does hope exist?

Ok talk about software. though it is not my field. Software has not seperate existence, like you quoted about gravity, it depends on the machine. I assume you know about "Machine Language". Latest softwares are simply the form of Machine Language. Softwares have indirect physical properties.
we can feel the presence of beauty as it is property of "Things".
Truth: Yes it exists
Hope: Yes it exists.
Beauty , Truth, Hope, Gravity, Software are associated with Things , as they have no seperate existence.

I have tried to reply you , But i know I am not a scholar, neither I am sure if my idea is feasible. The time when I am unable to reply then i will say this idea is crap. Untill than bear me , if you can

**Strange** · January 3rd, 2014, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Nothingness is not related to intangibility.

But is existence related to tangibility?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Strange

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Nothingness is not related to intangibility.

But is existence related to tangibility?

Existence of "Things" (Living + Non Living + Virus) is related to Tangibility but properties of those Things (Interaction between them and with nature) may not be tangible.

**Pong** · January 3rd, 2014, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Virus is an anomaly in nature while we classify "Things". Things can be either living or non living. two extremes.

Virus is not both at same time. it switches. Simple.

So "living" is a quality that exists or doesn't. Isn't that the convenient way to see things? Look at human life, in conception and in death, exactly when does living or not living happen? We'd like to put an exact time on these but we can't very well. In death at least, it's more like a quantity of life that drops down to zero - and sometimes bounces up again!

Moreover you may be more or less alive (coffee helps) at times and that's meaningful. A log is less alive than a lion.

**Dywyddyr** · January 3rd, 2014, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

There are many intermediates in this universe . No?

No.

like what is intermediate between energy and matter?

What is the intermediate between chocolate sponge cake and a nuclear detonation?

what is intermediate between living and non - living? Virus?

What is the intermediate between a frog and a traffic cone?

what is intermediate between plants and animals? Euglena?

What is the intermediate between a really good movie and a spaghetti bolognese?

Categories are human conventions.
(That's why I said - probably not flippantly - that there aren't intermediates).
Things are what they are: where they fall on a some "graduated scale" is where we place them.

Ok talk about software. though it is not my field. Software has not seperate existence, like you quoted about gravity, it depends on the machine.

What?
Gravity depends on mass (or spacetime, or elves) in other words "gravity" is no more indepenent than "software.

I assume you know about "Machine Language". Latest softwares are simply the form of Machine Language. Softwares have indirect physical properties.

Doesn't mean that software itself is physical.

we can feel the presence of beauty as it is property of "Things".

No it isn't.

Truth: Yes it exists

Hmm, I'll have to think about that one.

Hope: Yes it exists.

Could you send me some? I'll pay for it, and for postage and packing.

Beauty , Truth, Hope, Gravity, Software are associated with Things , as they have no seperate existence.

Like gravity?
If they "have no separate existence" wouldn't that mean that they don't exist as themselves but are simply properties/ aspects of what does exist?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Pong

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Virus is an anomaly in nature while we classify "Things". Things can be either living or non living. two extremes.

Virus is not both at same time. it switches. Simple.

So "living" is a quality that exists or doesn't. Isn't that the convenient way to see things? Look at human life, in conception and in death, exactly when does living or not living happen? We'd like to put an exact time on these but we can't very well. In death at least, it's more like a quantity of life that drops down to zero - and sometimes bounces up again!

Moreover you may be more or less alive (coffee helps) at times and that's meaningful. A log is less alive than a lion.

wether I am alive or dead, I exist. Is it not enough? Changing in form is not important, Important is if there is form.
And this discussion is not on LIFE and its measurement. This thread is put to explore the possibility of an intermediate between "Existence and nothingness". Death , life etc exist. There should be another thread exploring how be more alive. Am I wrong?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Categories are human conventions.
(That's why I said - probably not flippantly - that there aren't intermediates).
Things are what they are: where they fall on a some "graduated scale" is where we place them.

Ok, Lets just forget intermediate debate. What do you think about Existence, nothingness, and is there anything which can switch between them?

Gravity depends on mass (or spacetime, or elves) in other words "gravity" is no more indepenent than "software.

Please explain

Doesn't mean that software itself is physical.

ok , it is physical. so what . We are talking about its existence not tangibility

we can feel the presence of beauty as it is property of "Things".

No it isn't.

please elaborate

Beauty , Truth, Hope, Gravity, Software are associated with Things , as they have no seperate existence.

Like gravity?

Yes

If they "have no separate existence" wouldn't that mean that they don't exist as themselves but are simply properties/ aspects of what does exist?

exactly. They exist. They are the result of interaction between things and the interaction of things with nature. I am a thing. Plz dont laugh

**Dywyddyr** · January 3rd, 2014, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

What do you think about Existence, nothingness, and is there anything which can switch between them?

Me, you, computers, the universe....

Please explain

If there's no mass there's no gravity.

ok , it is physical

No it's not.

so what . We are talking about its existence not tangibility

So how do you define "exist"?

please elaborate

"Beauty" is something WE decide on. Can you show me me "beauty"? (And I don't mean "something that is beautiful").

Yes

So they don't exist. Gotit.

exactly. They exist.

No.
They're something WE decided to say exists.

They are the result of interaction between things and the interaction of things with nature. I am a thing. Plz dont laugh

Again: show me "beauty". Show me "truth", "hope" etc...

**Beer w/Straw** · January 3rd, 2014, 11:40 AM

*Ahem*

Apples and Oranges?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

What do you think about Existence, nothingness, and is there anything which can switch between them?

Me, you, computers, the universe....

dear you have avoided to answer my question.

If there's no mass there's no gravity.

ok, I am indifferent, as because of youe this statement My thread will be unaffected. If there is no mass why there should be gravity, as mass is due to presence. And gravity is dependent on the presence of a thing. As it is not a seperate thing. Just property

ok , it is physical

No it's not.

As you say. I am unaffected. as I have already said that softwares are not seperate things they are just dependent on the Machine to show their physical properties.

so what . We are talking about its existence not tangibility

So how do you define "exist"?

I have already. Living+Nonliving + virus exist

"Beauty" is something WE decide on. Can you show me me "beauty"? (And I don't mean "something that is beautiful").

Off course Things possess beauty. Ask a woman!

Yes

So they don't exist. Gotit.

no way. they exist, but they are the properties of Things. they can be measured but not touched. i know the measurement word is subjective but , we can quantify any property with constant and good observation.

They're something WE decided to say exists.

Because we feel so. why dont I say that unicorns exist. as they dont exist

Again: show me "beauty". Show me "truth", "hope" etc...

I cant, as they cant be touched. sorry

ox · January 3rd, 2014, 12:01 PM

This is possible to explain, but impossible at the moment to prove.
Consider the Multiverse, and our insignificance in it all.

We live on a hunk of rock and metal that circles a humdrum star that is one of 400 billion other stars that make up the Milky Way Galaxy which is one of billions of other galaxies which make up a universe which may be one of a very large number, perhaps an infinite number, of other universes. That is a perspective on human life and our culture that is well worth pondering. (Carl Sagan)

That could be why we can't create life from scratch, or matter from energy.

**Dywyddyr** · January 3rd, 2014, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

dear you have avoided to answer my question.

No, I answered the question you asked. All of those things have switched from non-existence to existence.
You, me, and computers (individual ones) will also, eventually, switch back to non-existence.

ok, I am indifferent, as because of youe this statement My thread will be unaffected. If there is no mass why there should be gravity, as mass is due to presence. And gravity is dependent on the presence of a thing. As it is not a seperate thing. Just property

Let's recap:
You said "gravity exists". Post #5.
You also wrote "Software has not seperate existence, like you quoted about gravity": post #16. Gravity does NOT have a separate existence.

As you say. I am unaffected. as I have already said that softwares are not seperate things they are just dependent on the Machine to show their physical properties.

So what is software?

I have already. Living+Nonliving + virus exist

Where does gravity fit into that? Software? Beauty?

Off course Things possess beauty. Ask a woman!

Do they? Or do we simply "decide" that something is "beautiful"? Can you show me "beauty"?

no way. they exist, but they are the properties of Things.

Are they?

they can be measured but not touched. i know the measurement word is subjective but , we can quantify any property with constant and good observation.

How do we quantify "beauty"? "Hope"? "Truth"?

Because we feel so. why dont I say that unicorns exist. as they dont exist

Circular argument. Can you show me "beauty" or "truth"?

I cant, as they cant be touched. sorry

"Touching" isn't necessary for me to be shown them.
Please show that they exist.

**Dywyddyr** · January 3rd, 2014, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by ox

That could be why we can't create ... matter from energy.

CERN might disagree.

ox · January 3rd, 2014, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by ox

That could be why we can't create ... matter from energy.

CERN might disagree.

But for how long?

**sir ir r aj** · January 3rd, 2014, 02:42 PM

@ox: I dont know if there are many universes ? It is just wild supposition. have you any proof that there are many universes and how do they affect Existence and "nothingness"? Maybe I wanted to ask something other. but if you can explain this I will be grateful. thank you

@Dydywer: gravity is due to matter. So it has existence dependent on matter . I am very clear. I know what are nothingness and existence. there are grey areas. Something which exists will be felt. You are trying to confuse me by asking about some fictional concepts, like hope , trust, etc. While it is good to talk about gravity and software, how can you expect from me to give logically good answer in same tone about those fictional concepts. Either you are not feeling the depth or you are also confused.
About software: Why do you think it does not exist? Because you cant touch it. At least you can see it. I am writing the reply to you, software is helper. Is this not an evidence? Software is not property of Things(Computer) . It is machine language in which computers interact. It affects their behaviour/activity. So why do you think it does not exist?
How Beauty can fit into my classification of Existence and nothingness? Do you think geometry exist? Is it not about angels and lines and designs? Same about beauty. you have not an eye of observer. IT JUST EXIST.
Truth: Existence is truth. I interpret truth in this way. Yes it is very subjective. It is true that there is sun, it is true that there is life, it is true that you exist.

"Touching" isn't necessary for me to be shown them

What other criteria do you suggest? feeling , smell, taste. You can definitely taste beauty. I cant show you truth, beauty, hope (Fictional concepts) as they can only be felt. You are right in one thing that is "They exist because we say they exist". But they exist, in any way.

**Dywyddyr** · January 3rd, 2014, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

gravity is due to matter.

Correct.

So it has existence dependent on matter (non - living thing). I am very clear.

But you're NOT clear.
You still haven't defined what you mean by "exist".

I know what are nothingness and existence.

But so far you haven't explained it to anyone else.

Something which exists will be felt.

Can you feel software?

You are trying to confuse me by asking about some fictional concepts, like hope , trust, etc. While it is good to talk about gravity and software, how can you expect from me to give logically good answer in same tone about those fictional concepts. Either you are not feeling the depth or you are also confused.

Wait a minute!
Hope, trust etc are now fictional concepts?
But YOU said they exist. (Post #16).

About software: Why do you think it does not exist?

Try reading: no-one said it doesn't exist, what has been disputed is physical existence.

Because you cant touch it. At least you can see it.

Can you see software?

How Beauty can fit into my classification of Existence and nothingness?

You tell me, you're the one that said it exists.

you have not an eye of observer.

Wrong: what's happening here is that you make statements and don't justify them. This is the philosophy sub-forum: We don't accept arguments (especially half-formed ones) at face value.

IT JUST EXIST.

Oh well.
In that case your entire argument can be boiled down to "I'm right because I know I am: just take my word for it".

Truth: Existence is truth.

Like software?

It is true that there is sun, it is true that there is life, it is true that you exist.

Correct: but those things are not "truth".

What other criteria do you suggest? feeling , smell, taste.

That's up to you to show.

You can definitely taste beauty.

False.

I cant show you truth, beauty, hope (Fictional concepts) as they can only be felt.

Really?

You are right in one thing that is "They exist because we say they exist". But they exist, in any way.

They exist because we say they exist, but they exist whether we say so or not?

**Pong** · January 3rd, 2014, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Originally Posted by Pong

A log is less alive than a lion.

this discussion is not on LIFE and its measurement. This thread is put to explore the possibility of an intermediate between "Existence and nothingness". Death , life etc exist. There should be another thread exploring how be more alive. Am I wrong?

Let's be brave and say you're wrong (sorry), because the problem of living - our existence - most strongly compels us to feel it a true/false condition.

Existence of life is not simply true/false. That belief is a paradox we need to simplify judgements (like drawing a border) and shepherd our collection of parts through the world (like this is my hand made of my proteins my water etc. infecting your doorknob with my flu). That's such an essential function of mind - or "internal organization" you could say - that even a slug needs this paradox to continue being all the slug it can be.

If you try maybe just that corner of your mind farthest from the demands of living, can look back at your life's struggle and laugh. But such little vacations can't stop the momentum of your whole organism's conspiracy to promote a paradox of "this or that", "me or it", "dead or alive" etc.

Virus is curious because it hacks our living paradox at the genetic level: "I am you." But prions go one "better" for they hack the molecules: "I am it." In any case, we argue whether these things are alive because they have the property of using the paradox, like all living things, to survive.

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

wether I am alive or dead, I exist. Is it not enough? Changing in form is not important, Important is if there is form

Sorry I just don't think "you" continue to exist after your body passes the crematorium. Neither is a copy of "you" in cyberspace, or heaven, or in people's minds, the same you-form existing. But this whole "it exists / I exist" is a paradox we all need, so mostly I'll conspire with you to keep up the illusions.

**Dywyddyr** · January 3rd, 2014, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

wether I am alive or dead, I exist.

You exist now.
You didn't 100 years ago and you won't 100 years from now.

**sir ir r aj** · January 4th, 2014, 10:52 AM

Sorry, for late reply.
@Dywyddyr: Its good to see you in the form
Lets make somethings clear: I am not here to present my theory/hypothesis etc , I have just proposed a new idea. As I am simply curious. So you people feel my idea is crap, I am happy with it. I simply learn from you guys.

What I mean when i say "I Exist" : I am product of this universe. i was present when Big Bang happened. And when I die i simply become Non - Living and decompose. Atoms / Molecules which make my body disperse. It is Recycling. Related to "Law of Conservation of Existence". Law of conservation of mass is simply branch of of this law. Untill this universe is destroyed I will be kept recycled forever.

We are going in wrong direction. I expected that you will discuss the aspects of nothingness with members here, but contrary to this you are discussing fictional concepts. The properties of Things , which can be felt/observed exist, but they are secondary and can be changed. Like Love. It exist. But My thread has a bigger scope than exploring the prospects of love. Same for Beauty , hope , trust. i am not insisting or forcing anybody to believe in my idea.

Everything which exists will keep on existing untill engulfed by nothingness in a normal process, I dont know what will be that process. may be destruction of universe?

One request to you : please analyse my paragraphs, and dont quote line by line, as sometimes you ignore the essence of my post. Sorry. Try to comment on thoughts not on lines. Thank you in advance.

@pong: "I exist" has been explained in above reply. thanks for your all comments. and sorry for late reply

ox · January 4th, 2014, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

@ox: I dont know if there are many universes ? It is just wild supposition. have you any proof that there are many universes and how do they affect Existence and "nothingness"? Maybe I wanted to ask something other. but if you can explain this I will be grateful. thank you

No proof exists of other universes. I recommend you read The Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch. This is not an easy book.
The Fabric of Reality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To try and sum up what a person is:

A person is a set of copies in nearby parallel worlds.

I don't know if this ever suggests that when we die only one copy of us dies. The duck could be wrong.

**sir ir r aj** · January 4th, 2014, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by ox

A person is a set of copies in nearby parallel worlds.

It seems to be a fictional concept. taken from a movie/novel.
But I have heard of Parallel universe where there is no concept of time-space framework. This concept may be close to my "Nothingness" if found true. I have already asked this question "Is htere a parallel universe?" . And Markus Hanke (member here)replied that This idea is not testable with current physics

**Dywyddyr** · January 4th, 2014, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

One request to you : please analyse my paragraphs, and dont quote line by line, as sometimes you ignore the essence of my post. Sorry. Try to comment on thoughts not on lines. Thank you in advance.

Just this once:
It's hard to comment on "thoughts not lines" since your thinking has not yet been shown - beyond "I think this and I'm not going to explain it".
The reason I break posts down into line by line rebuttals is to show the flaws exist: before you can construct a coherent - and VALID - whole you need a firm foundation. If you addressed the flaws (and corrected them) THEN you can construct something: an idea, a concept, whatever.
"Exist" has STILL not been defined by you: it's still at the level of "whatever I say exists, exists and that's what "exist" means".
I agree that your components will continue to be recycled: that does not, however, mean that YOU existed 100 years ago or will continue to do so a century from now. Unless you have an incredibly loose (and meaningless) definition of "you".
As for "fictional concepts" I would remind you that YOU brought them up, that they're NOT fictional (in the way you apparently now mean).
The "scope" of your thread is, so far deeply flawed in that you haven't defined ¹ your terms and you seem to think that "Because I can see this it must be true".

Everything which exists will keep on existing untill engulfed by nothingness in a normal process

Untrue. Not even CLOSE to being true.

1 This IS the philosophy sub-forum: (philosophy - systematic approach and rational argument).

**sir ir r aj** · January 4th, 2014, 02:47 PM

The reason I break posts down into line by line rebuttals is to show the flaws exist: before you can construct a coherent - and VALID - whole you need a firm foundation. If you addressed the flaws (and corrected them) THEN you can construct something: an idea, a concept, whatever.

Thank you. But i salute you , for you are the first person who uses so many quotes.

"Exist" has STILL not been defined by you

Definition: "Anything which exists can be sensed". ok? Our senses are not limited to "smell, see, touch, hear and taste". so sometimes we have not a "proper sense" to actually sense that something exists. I am not advocating for supernatural things, or any ghosts, as a true science man I dont believe in them. They dont exist. It is the simple way in which I think what existence is.

As for "fictional concepts" I would remind you that YOU brought them up

No, it was Strange. see post # 12.

And we don't come from nothing, we are products of this universe. maybe universe came from nothing after Big Bang. No? (My personal thought)

What do you think about Existence , Nothingness? And Is there anything which can switch between them? As virus can switch between living and non-living things. I am asking you Mr. D. As I am unable to satisfy you.

(I am really enjoying this discussion.)

**Dywyddyr** · January 4th, 2014, 02:58 PM

My bad, Strange was the one.
Regardless, does "beauty" exist?
How do we sense "software"?
How do we sense "justice"?
If we "sense" a ghost (or god!) does that mean they exist?

And we don't come from nothing, we are products of this universe. maybe universe came from nothing after Big Bang. No? (My personal thought)

I didn't say we came from nothing but that "I" and "you" didn't exist 100 years ago, etc.

What do you think about Existence , Nothingness? And Is there anything which can switch between them?

The universe (maybe).
Anything NOW (since the start of the universe) comes from what already exists (in one way or another), ergo it doesn't come from "nothing".
That doesn't mean that you trace exactly how it did come about.

**Strange** · January 4th, 2014, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Definition: "Anything which exists can be sensed". ok?

That is a good start. But ...

Our senses are not limited to "smell, see, touch, hear and taste". so sometimes we have not a "proper sense" to actually sense that something exists.

So now you need to define what you mean by "sense". Otherwise we are stuck with the problem that you can (and do) arbitrarily define anything as existing in order to support your position. Now all you need to do is arbitrarily define anything (imagination, dreams, reading) as a "sense" and you can say that anything exists. Which makes the entire discussion pointless.

However, by your reasoning, because the concept of "nothing" exists, then everything, including nothing, exists and so your question is meaningless.

**sir ir r aj** · January 4th, 2014, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Regardless, does "beauty" exist?
How do we sense "software"?
How do we sense "justice"?
If we "sense" a ghost (or god!) does that mean they exist?

my reply about beauty.....

How Beauty can fit into my classification of Existence and nothingness? Do you think geometry exist? Is it not about angels and lines and designs? Same about beauty. you have not an eye of observer. IT JUST EXIST.

We have talked enough about software.
And in the beginning I have already told that talking about religion is not desirable. My bad that I mentioned Supernatural forces. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

I didn't say we came from nothing but that "I" and "you" didn't exist 100 years ago, etc.

my reply is

I am product of this universe. i was present when Big Bang happened. And when I die i simply become Non - Living and decompose. Atoms / Molecules which make my body disperse. It is Recycling. Related to "Law of Conservation of Existence". Law of conservation of mass is simply branch of of this law. Untill this universe is destroyed I will be kept recycled forever.

I think you have shown some flexibility in your view point when you wrote this

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

The universe (maybe).
Anything NOW (since the start of the universe) comes from what already exists (in one way or another), ergo it doesn't come from "nothing".
That doesn't mean that you trace exactly how it did come about.

I am more interested in the history of universe.

Originally Posted by Strange

Which makes the entire discussion pointless.

It is moving in that direction. thanks for pointing out. I will prepare well. It is good to see how you predicted the future of this thread.

Originally Posted by Strange

However, by your reasoning, because the concept of "nothing" exists, then everything, including nothing, exists and so your question is meaningless.

Yeah that is very complex reply.
Is there any nothing which does not exist?! I am wondering.

**Dywyddyr** · January 4th, 2014, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by sir ir r aj

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Regardless, does "beauty" exist?
How do we sense "software"?
How do we sense "justice"?
If we "sense" a ghost (or god!) does that mean they exist?

my reply about beauty.....

How Beauty can fit into my classification of Existence and nothingness? Do you think geometry exist? Is it not about angels and lines and designs? Same about beauty. you have not an eye of observer. IT JUST EXIST.

Yes, we appear to be back to "It exists because I say it does.
You have claimed previously, and I quote: Definition: "Anything which exists can be sensed". ok?
How do we "sense" beauty?

We have talked enough about software.

Except that you've talked around it.

my reply is

I am product of this universe. i was present when Big Bang happened. And when I die i simply become Non - Living and decompose. Atoms / Molecules which make my body disperse. It is Recycling. Related to "Law of Conservation of Existence". Law of conservation of mass is simply branch of of this law. Untill this universe is destroyed I will be kept recycled forever.

There is NO "law of conservation of existence".
You and I did not exist 100 years ago.
YOU have not been, nor is it likely that "you" will be, recycled.
YOU will cease to exist when you die.

**sir ir r aj** · January 5th, 2014, 08:35 AM

After a delibrate thought, I am backing off.

Why I backed off:
After reading the following comment of Mr. D I realised that "though I am product of this universe but indirectly I am product of nothingness also, as universe itself is product of nothingness" And I got my answer that it is universe which can switch between existence and nothingness.
If my conclusion is faulty, kindly point out.

Anything NOW (since the start of the universe) comes from what already exists (in one way or another), ergo it doesn't come from "nothing".
That doesn't mean that you trace exactly how it did come about.

Thank you Mr. D, Strange, Pong and Ox.