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Thread: What is the rationale to know how the universe began.

  1. #1 What is the rationale to know how the universe began. 
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    If science found out how the universe began, how could this information be beneficial to humans and the universe at large?
    Is it possible for any human or civilisation to acquire such vast knowledge?


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    I do believe we will find out one day. How would it benefit us? We have already learned much to know what we do already.


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    Curiosity. Human beings have an inherent tendency to want to understand the world around them; it is that tendency that has gotten us to where we are now, for better or worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Curiosity. Human beings have an inherent tendency to want to understand the world around them; it is that tendency that has gotten us to where we are now, for better or worse.
    the world around us is actually a garden ... or on each side a house
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    If science found out how the universe began, how could this information be beneficial to humans and the universe at large?
    A frequent result of discovering new things is that unexpected benefits arise from that knowledge. As to the benefits to the universe at large consider this: humans are the universes way of examining itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Is it possible for any human or civilisation to acquire such vast knowledge?
    Probably. In 100,000 years and mainly in the last 500, we have determined an enormous amount about the character of the universe. What might be achieved in one million years?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    If science found out how the universe began, how could this information be beneficial to humans and the universe at large?
    A frequent result of discovering new things is that unexpected benefits arise from that knowledge. As to the benefits to the universe at large consider this: humans are the universes way of examining itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Is it possible for any human or civilisation to acquire such vast knowledge?
    Probably. In 100,000 years and mainly in the last 500, we have determined an enormous amount about the character of the universe. What might be achieved in one million years?
    What does that mean enormos amount? Compared to what?
    Last edited by Stargate; November 5th, 2013 at 06:57 PM.
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    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    What is the 'rationale?' I'd say because as humans, we are not comfortable with the phrase...''I don't know.'' But, who's to say...we will never know? If science didn't keep pressing forward, we wouldn't know what we already do know about the universe. The possibilities are endless...let's stay optimistic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Curiosity. Human beings have an inherent tendency to want to understand the world around them; it is that tendency that has gotten us to where we are now, for better or worse.
    Markus, if we found out how the universe started would we create a new model? Can you imagine what we would do with that knowledge? To some extent we have not learnt about who we are, is not that more achievable?
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    How the Universe began isn't just about cosmology....it's about physics. Combining General Relativity with Quantum theory could blow current technology away. It could give insights into new energy sources, material science, quantum computing, etc.

    The issue isn't knowing as in having physical perception but knowing as in 'it works'....just as nuclear energy works even though we can't get our brain around it except on paper. Physicists are happy to line up and say 'I don't get quantum theory' which is different from them rejecting what have been the results of replicable experiments. Nobody 'really' understands quantum theory because our senses have no means of creating analogy that is relevant. A bunch of stuff isn't known about the beginning of the Universe but it isn't magic. It's rational and we are getting closer to explaining it in theory even if 'closer' means we'll never get there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossilborealis View Post
    How the Universe began isn't just about cosmology....it's about physics. Combining General Relativity with Quantum theory could blow current technology away. It could give insights into new energy sources, material science, quantum computing, etc.

    The issue isn't knowing as in having physical perception but knowing as in 'it works'....just as nuclear energy works even though we can't get our brain around it except on paper. Physicists are happy to line up and say 'I don't get quantum theory' which is different from them rejecting what have been the results of replicable experiments. Nobody 'really' understands quantum theory because our senses have no means of creating analogy that is relevant. A bunch of stuff isn't known about the beginning of the Universe but it isn't magic. It's rational and we are getting closer to explaining it in theory even if 'closer' means we'll never get there.
    I really like what you are saying here. I get a little frustrated at times because I find so many are trying to make an impact on others instead of relating to humans. You know, I have no other way of relating to anything in life except through the human body. I have so much brain power versus so many possibilities; I can only achieve my capacity of knowledge whatever that may be. Science is not the all for me, some parts I can explain and some parts I cannot.



    A bunch of stuff isn't known about the beginning of the Universe but it isn't magic. It's rational and we are getting closer to explaining it in theory even if 'closer' means we'll never get there.

    do not think the universe is a mystery in one sense, I think the study of humans is the gateway to this knowledge; I cannot see any realistic progress in the pursuit of all this knowledge unless it’s through the human perspective. My question of what is the rational to know how the universe began is based on the understanding of who I am and what I know about my appearance in this "I don’t Know".

    I have watched us develop weapons of mass destruction, I have watched us supposedly go to the moon, I have seen people dropping bombs on other people’s heads, and you name it. Most people have resigned their fate to science and technology, what I have not seen is the desire to learn who we are and live like we love each other. The question of knowing our universe and how it began may be a goal if we could identify why we need to know. I thank you for your insight, and the way you have formulated your response, it makes me know there are others out there thinking about this question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I have watched us supposedly go to the moon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Most people have resigned their fate to science and technology, what I have not seen is the desire to learn who we are and live like we love each other.
    Irony is we aren't learning that lesson because not enough people have "resigned their fate to science and technology," instead dwell in superstitious mythologies, beliefs that ethical and moral answers lie in those superstitions, instead of applying the absolute best tools FROM science to discover our nature and develop ways to mitigate those parts inconsistent with promoting the welfare of all people.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; November 5th, 2013 at 10:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Most people have resigned their fate to science and technology, what I have not seen is the desire to learn who we are and live like we love each other.
    Irony is we aren't learning that lesson because not enough people have "resigned their fate to science and technology," instead dwell in superstitious mythologies, beliefs that ethical and moral answers lie in that superstitions, instead of applying the absolute best tools FROM science to discover our nature and develop ways to mitigate those parts inconsistent with promoting the welfare of all people.
    Maybe, but how can we claim advancement when we do not apreciate one another? Science and technology is way ahead of everything else, it's not the only thing in life you know. If you look at it from the perspective of a tree, the branches are sick because the root is sick.
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    What exactly do you think is sick? Especially compared to the past (the real one; not the rose colored one we sometimes imagine and pine for)

    But just about every measure we are much better off today than any time we have reliable evidence to compare to...not only better BUT FAR better, with proportionately less violence, more children fed, longer lives, less overall misery during that life. And to a quite large extent, things are improved the most in those places that have embraced science and technology. Not only to improve the direct physical material things such as higher quality foods, but also by applying social sciences and reason to solve psychological problems, get to the root problems of child abuse, criminality etc; or make many of those same improvements through agencies such as UN humanitarian teams who apply science and technology to help the developing world set of economies, health services, governments etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Most people have resigned their fate to science and technology, what I have not seen is the desire to learn who we are and live like we love each other.
    Irony is we aren't learning that lesson because not enough people have "resigned their fate to science and technology," instead dwell in superstitious mythologies, beliefs that ethical and moral answers lie in that superstitions, instead of applying the absolute best tools FROM science to discover our nature and develop ways to mitigate those parts inconsistent with promoting the welfare of all people.
    Maybe, but how can we claim advancement when we do not apreciate one another? Science and technology is way ahead of everything else, it's not the only thing in life you know. If you look at it from the perspective of a tree, the branches are sick because the root is sick.
    May I ask you Stargate, are you spiritual...do you believe in God? I ask because I used to utter similar things, when I was once religious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Most people have resigned their fate to science and technology, what I have not seen is the desire to learn who we are and live like we love each other.
    Irony is we aren't learning that lesson because not enough people have "resigned their fate to science and technology," instead dwell in superstitious mythologies, beliefs that ethical and moral answers lie in that superstitions, instead of applying the absolute best tools FROM science to discover our nature and develop ways to mitigate those parts inconsistent with promoting the welfare of all people.
    Maybe, but how can we claim advancement when we do not apreciate one another? Science and technology is way ahead of everything else, it's not the only thing in life you know. If you look at it from the perspective of a tree, the branches are sick because the root is sick.
    What exactly is the point you are trying to get to? What are you trying to allude to here, please just state it.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Most people have resigned their fate to science and technology, what I have not seen is the desire to learn who we are and live like we love each other.
    Irony is we aren't learning that lesson because not enough people have "resigned their fate to science and technology," instead dwell in superstitious mythologies, beliefs that ethical and moral answers lie in that superstitions, instead of applying the absolute best tools FROM science to discover our nature and develop ways to mitigate those parts inconsistent with promoting the welfare of all people.
    Maybe, but how can we claim advancement when we do not apreciate one another? Science and technology is way ahead of everything else, it's not the only thing in life you know. If you look at it from the perspective of a tree, the branches are sick because the root is sick.
    May I ask you Stargate, are you spiritual...do you believe in God? I ask because I used to utter similar things, when I was once religious.
    No Wegs I am not religious, and the only god I know is me. I just observe and compare.
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    What exactly is the point you are trying to get to? What are you trying to allude to here, please just state it.
    You do not seem to be following the thread so you have missed the point.
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    I am following the thread, and you ahve made repeated allusions to rot in the modern living. WHAT exactly are you talking about.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    What exactly do you think is sick? Especially compared to the past (the real one; not the rose colored one we sometimes imagine and pine for)

    But just about every measure we are much better off today than any time we have reliable evidence to compare to...not only better BUT FAR better, with proportionately less violence, more children fed, longer lives, less overall misery during that life. And to a quite large extent, things are improved the most in those places that have embraced science and technology. Not only to improve the direct physical material things such as higher quality foods, but also by applying social sciences and reason to solve psychological problems, get to the root problems of child abuse, criminality etc; or make many of those same improvements through agencies such as UN humanitarian teams who apply science and technology to help the developing world set of economies, health services, governments etc.

    "not the only thing in life you know" It is the only reliable way to analyze things that are real.
    Don't get me wrong Lynx, I do see some advancement. but I also see us heading in the wrong direction, it makes the advancements so blurry that I am questioning the reason we want to know how the universe began. What would we accomplish if we obtained that knowledge.
    A question for you. Are you satisfied with the life we humans are living on planet earth? I am sure there are different views.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I am following the thread, and you ahve made repeated allusions to rot in the modern living. WHAT exactly are you talking about.
    Please state what you are specifically refering to so I can respond. I have clearly stated my point about the rational of knowing how the universe began.
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    You JUST posted saying we are moving in the "wrong" direction, and all of your post #13
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Don't get me wrong Lynx, I do see some advancement. but I also see us heading in the wrong direction
    What are you talking about? I noticed I'm not the only one asking?

    Are you satisfied with the life we humans are living on planet earth? I am sure there are different views.

    I have mixed feelings. I'm gravely concerned about our unsustainable living standards using economical models that encourage waste and vast ecological destruction that might rival prior mass extinctions. I'm still disturbed by cultures still moribund to superstitions that encourage intolerance, abuses, oppression wanton use of limited resources from views that automatically consider humans somehow separate form the rest of the life on this wondrous planet (I'm a deeply spiritual atheist).

    On the other hand I'm greatly encouraged by slowing human population growth; slowly growing ecological awareness in both the developing and developed world; social progress towards ending oppression; technology to bring medical cures, effective agricultural practices, clean water, safe food, and generally much better living standards around the world; and
    science & reason based education and access to information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What exactly is the point you are trying to get to? What are you trying to allude to here, please just state it.
    The "point" is "Blah blah blah I don't like science because it's too difficult for me and rationality ruins my ridiculous half-baked thoughts".

    As evidenced by:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Please state what you are specifically refering to so I can respond. I have clearly stated my point about the rational of knowing how the universe began.
    Translation: "I don't have an actual point, that's why I keep telling people to read the thread - because I can't actually state it clearly 1".

    1 "I'm secretly hoping someone will manage to dredge an actual point - or something resembling one - out of the wishy-washing ramblings I choose to inflict on the members of this forum".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What exactly is the point you are trying to get to? What are you trying to allude to here, please just state it.
    The "point" is "Blah blah blah I don't like science because it's too difficult for me and rationality ruins my ridiculous half-baked thoughts".

    As evidenced by:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Please state what you are specifically refering to so I can respond. I have clearly stated my point about the rational of knowing how the universe began.
    Translation: "I don't have an actual point, that's why I keep telling people to read the thread - because I can't actually state it clearly 1".

    1 "I'm secretly hoping someone will manage to dredge an actual point - or something resembling one - out of the wishy-washing ramblings I choose to inflict on the members of this forum".
    lol @ ''inflict'' ...oh brother, we are being a bit dramatic, no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Don't get me wrong Lynx, I do see some advancement. but I also see us heading in the wrong direction
    What are you talking about? I noticed I'm not the only one asking?

    Are you satisfied with the life we humans are living on planet earth? I am sure there are different views.

    I have mixed feelings. I'm gravely concerned about our unsustainable living standards using economical models that encourage waste and vast ecological destruction that might rival prior mass extinctions. I'm still disturbed by cultures still moribund to superstitions that encourage intolerance, abuses, oppression wanton use of limited resources from views that automatically consider humans somehow separate form the rest of the life on this wondrous planet (I'm a deeply spiritual atheist).

    On the other hand I'm greatly encouraged by slowing human population growth; slowly growing ecological awareness in both the developing and developed world; social progress towards ending oppression; technology to bring medical cures, effective agricultural practices, clean water, safe food, and generally much better living standards around the world; and
    science & reason based education and access to information.
    Ok then, we are not so far apart in our thinking process. There are good parts, everything cannot be bad. However, the direction of development for me is not finding out about how the universe began, but to develop a science that suites the world and not just one group. To develop economies that serves the world and not a couple of ignorant greedy few. Technologies that give people free energy that could alleviate poverty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    lol @ ''inflict'' ...oh brother, we are being a bit dramatic, no?
    You think?
    I have rarely come across anyone so (apparently 1) incapable of coherent thought, anyone so persistently and wilfully irrational, anyone so bereft of intellect.
    Someone who can't order their thoughts (such as they are - I'm using the term very loosely) before putting them down "on paper" for public consumption - especially on a science forum - is either entirely oblivious to reality and/ or ignorant of the effect his posts have on others 2.

    1 That's on the off-chance that he's deliberately trolling.
    2 It amazes me that such people are even capable of turning on their computer, let alone managing to register and post on a forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    but to develop a science that suites the world and not just one group. To develop economies that serves the world and not a couple of ignorant greedy few.

    Blatant ignorance of what science does.

    Technologies that give people free energy that could alleviate poverty.
    There are no such technologies.
    More fantasy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    However, the direction of development for me is not finding out about how the universe began, but to develop a science that suites the world and not just one group. To develop economies that serves the world and not a couple of ignorant greedy few. Technologies that give people free energy that could alleviate poverty.
    Over the past few decades average poverty has decreased dramatically around the world--there are huge improvements in that areas. We still need to make progress towards leveling income inequality however.

    Basic research often doesn't have obvious practical applications--that is the very nature of it. Once it's figured out though, there are often huge gains as both science and engineers see the potential and put it to good use. Investigating the origin of the universe and the quest for readily available inexpensive and plentiful energy, aren't necessarily separate things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Markus, if we found out how the universe started would we create a new model? Can you imagine what we would do with that knowledge? To some extent we have not learnt about who we are, is not that more achievable?
    They are both worthwhile goals, to be honest.

    To develop economies that serves the world and not a couple of ignorant greedy few.
    Who says such efforts are not under way ? It needs to be remembered though that politics plays a large role in this too.
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    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
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    Over the past few decades average poverty has decreased dramatically around the world--there are huge improvements in that areas. We still need to make progress towards leveling income inequality however.
    Lynx, I do not think I totally agree with you on this one, I did look it up before I wrote that about poverty. I mentioned it on another post. There will be 11 trillionaires in the next few years, 4o percent of the worlds, wealth belong to 0.7 percent of the world population. Countries that have oil have the most poverty, take a look at Saudi Arabia, and take a look at Africa. It might not be so bad in America, but it’s bad. 45 million people on food stamps and no health insurance. Trade barriers in the Caribbean; I would say it’s pretty bad.

    Science and technology is absolutely at a place where it could do a lot better. As I said before the question is not that finding out about how the universe began might be a good thing, the question at the moment is, what is the rational. Why did the ancient Egyptians have such a thriving society? There must have been something they were doing that we have missed or not capable of seeing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    Oh, they realize it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Markus, if we found out how the universe started would we create a new model? Can you imagine what we would do with that knowledge? To some extent we have not learnt about who we are, is not that more achievable?
    They are both worthwhile goals, to be honest.

    To develop economies that serves the world and not a couple of ignorant greedy few.
    Who says such efforts are not under way ? It needs to be remembered though that politics plays a large role in this too.
    As you say Markus, a lot of it is politics, but we have seen that we the masses are allowing it, although we can see that a lot of it is counterproductive. If we were to finally find a way to go to Mars tomorrow, who do you think would be the first ones to go? The politicians, the money lenders, the weapon manufactures. We already have a universe, it might be nice to find out how it came about, but seriously, I do not at the moment see how it would alleviate some of the problems we are having on the planet.
    We could do a lot better. Science is a part of our lives, we cannot get rid of it, however, we can make it count for all and use it better. It really is my point of view and everyone has their own.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    Oh, they realize it...
    Then maybe we should realize it too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    Oh, they realize it...
    Then maybe we should realize it too.
    We do.

    The problem is not in recognizing the issue, but in correcting it.

    Distribution of wealth, as you seem to be suggesting, is not something Americans accept. We'd love to rob the rich and give to the poor. Until we've done so to the point where we're now the rich and we'll be damned if we're going to give up our hard earned money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    Oh, they realize it...
    Then maybe we should realize it too.
    We do.

    The problem is not in recognizing the issue, but in correcting it.

    Distribution of wealth, as you seem to be suggesting, is not something Americans accept. We'd love to rob the rich and give to the poor. Until we've done so to the point where we're now the rich and we'll be damned if we're going to give up our hard earned money.
    Hard earned is a point of view. American wealth belong to the American people, I mean all of them. World wealth belongs to the world’s people. If there are extraterrestrials steeling the money and plundering our welfare systems, we have to put together and stop them. Look at what I mean. You work twelve months in one year, you maybe get three weeks for vacation, I consider that alone to be counterproductive when one man earns one hundred billion in that one year. Am I crazy, or the whole idea is crazy?





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    You're suggesting socialism. Doesn't sound like anything new.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    You're suggesting socialism. Doesn't sound like anything new.
    No Flick, that is a buzz word every one is afraid of. I do not want to move away from the thread so I will refrain from comment. Maybe we can do that the next time it comes up.
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    Okay, so you're suggesting a form of government in which no one has individual claim to property, all wealth is shared equally, and the people control the flow of this currency.

    What would you​ call it?
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    It's not important enough to report, but if mod happens to come by, could you change the title to "rationale"? It is driving me crazy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    It's not important enough to report, but if mod happens to come by, could you change the title to "rationale"? It is driving me crazy!
    To be honest I don't know how to change it, can you help?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Okay, so you're suggesting a form of government in which no one has individual claim to property, all wealth is shared equally, and the people control the flow of this currency.

    What would you​ call it?
    I would address it, but the mods might say I am turning it political and warn me. What do you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Over the past few decades average poverty has decreased dramatically around the world--there are huge improvements in that areas. We still need to make progress towards leveling income inequality however.
    Lynx, I do not think I totally agree with you on this one, I did look it up before I wrote that about poverty.

    Where did you look it up?
    Every place I saw over and over studies and articles talking about the dramatic decrease in world poverty. Such as this one by the Worldbank, an agency that probably knows what it's talking about. The one big exception was Sub Saharan Africa. Saudi Arabia has also been lowering its poverty, despite falling oil revenues over the past couple decades. It's good though you highlight oil money though, because it's one of the more problematic in that it takes expertise to set up, often from contracted foreigners, but not much to maintain compared to the amount of money it generates--it doesn't' bring many jobs to locals. I saw this all too well in the Marshes of Southern Iraq, where the poorest people in the world were living among so many oil fields one could read standing outside their woven grass homes at night. Nearly starving children without hope, Chinese contractors pumped vast riches of oil from under their land and the US military provided security (it was a bit more complex...but that's what was happening once you removed the layers of politics--no wonder the Marsh Arabs hate others).

    In contrast to oil, consider wealth brought in by massive irrigation projects, where every local is needed and encouraged to plant, farm, establish businesses and distribute. More likely wealth gets spread around. And this answers why Egypt was successful--yearly floods, plentiful food and an entire civilization to farm, move, store and lots of support such as surveyers and tax collectors etc.

    Perhaps approach the problem from the other direction...imagine things now if you removed basic research from the progress of the past 21st century..no nuke power, no GMO foods, nor X-rays, nor TV, or radios, nor cell phones, nor GPS, nor hurricane warnings, nor most medicines, nor many other things.

    Remarkable Declines in Global Poverty, But Major Challenges Remain



    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; November 6th, 2013 at 07:09 PM.
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    Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Thanks!
    Thank you strange. Are you saying thanks to Lynx, because I did not do anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Okay, so you're suggesting a form of government in which no one has individual claim to property, all wealth is shared equally, and the people control the flow of this currency.

    What would you​ call it?
    I would address it, but the mods might say I am turning it political and warn me. What do you think?
    *looks at thread title*

    Oops. Uh, he started it!
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    Lynx, when it comes to the World Bank and the IMF, I am not so sure I trust all the information, although they have some good info. When you look at the corporation that owns almost everything and dictate everything, one has to be a bit cautious about statistics. There are so many ways to manipulate statistics; we the public onlookers are not entirely savvy to the different ways to manipulate the surveys.
    I guess you could say in one sense the poverty level has fallen but the cost of living has also risen. To make real sense of it all the kind of survey you need to make really good data would have to cover a wide spectrum of information.

    Perhaps approach the problem from the other direction...imagine things now if you removed basic research from the progress of the past 21st century. No nuke power, no GMO foods, nor X-rays, nor TV, or radios, nor cell phones, nor GPS, nor hurricane warnings, nor most medicines, nor many other things.


    This is a good point, however, just take Monsanto, although it might seem they are doing a good job, they have manipulated the entire seed industry and you have no more rights over your own seeds. I do not think any of these things are bad and need to stop, maybe better controlled.

    Have you ever heard or read how the IMF operates especially in third world countries? They even go as far as meddling in the educational system of the country.
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    IMF and the World bank are auxiliaries for the UN, which whether you like them or nor, maintain the most accurate information bar none. I'm not aware of an IMF-education link and not sure what it has to do with this thread--perhaps link something?

    Here's the thing about Monsanto....they wouldn't even exist if not for basic research on DNA first done in Russia and later by American Federal dollars vetted through the National Academy of Sciences to conduct basic research at several universities such as Stanford during the 1970s. Several of those 70's researchers, got their research published, picked up Nobel prizes, and than seeing the potential market went on to start companies. While there is some limited private basic research, a lot of it is done by government, specially because it has either uncertain or unclear applications--or not enough to garnish investments by private companies. Unfortunately the trend in the past few decades has been to cut basic research in the US, because of people such as yourself, do not understand its value to advance science in general and good track record of powering new generations of innovation.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; November 7th, 2013 at 12:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    OK. So you start with nothing and you are successful. How does that make you greedy. Normally those who succeed, hold Charity events, contribute to their communities and provide jobs, pay taxes. Sorry I don't find that being greedy. I call it successful and giving back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    OK. So you start with nothing and you are successful. How does that make you greedy. Normally those who succeed, hold Charity events, contribute to their communities and provide jobs, pay taxes. Sorry I don't find that being greedy. I call it successful and giving back.
    Sucessful has nothing to do with being greedy, I think you are mixing them up. I encourage you to be sucessful, I warn you to be greedy.
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    Unfortunately the trend in the past few decades has been to cut basic research in the US, because of people such as yourself, do not understand its value to advance science in general and good track record of powering new generations of innovation.
    Lynx, I do not see myself as not wanting research and development, far from it. What I am saying is a lot of the development is not based on people but personal gain to an extent that it becomes unhealthy. I cannot understand buying seeds, and after I have planted my crop and reap the new seeds, I can be sued for replanting the seeds from that crop because it was patented by a company. It has nothing to do with development.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    In 100,000 years and mainly in the last 500, we have determined an enormous amount about the character of the universe. What might be achieved in one million years?
    What does that mean enormos amount? Compared to what?
    I think you know exactly what it means. Since I am directly comparing what we knew 100,000 years ago with what we know now then it likely, unless I am a seriously incompetent writer, that I am comparing what we knew then with what we know now.

    You appear to have an agenda, a theme, that we still have an enormous amount that we do not know, or (inclusive, or exclusive) that we abuse the knowledge we do have. The first point is trivially obvious, the second is contentious expressed in a broad brush fashion as you implicitly do. Neither falsifies the observation that we have learned an enormous amount.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Here's the thing about Monsanto....they wouldn't even exist if not for basic research on DNA first done in Russia and later by American Federal dollars vetted through the National Academy of Sciences to conduct basic research at several universities such as Stanford during the 1970s.
    Are private entities holding patents on publicly funded intellectual property? I think we need a basic rewrite on international intellectual property standards and regulations. When it comes to things like food and medicine, the originator of an intellectual property should be entitled to royalties, but should be barred from absolute control of production and distribution. Really, are most people involved in efforts against cancer in it because of the pay?

    Oh yea, beginning of the universe? There might have been one of those. If not, then there has been an infinite regression of events.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    OK. So you start with nothing and you are successful. How does that make you greedy. Normally those who succeed, hold Charity events, contribute to their communities and provide jobs, pay taxes. Sorry I don't find that being greedy. I call it successful and giving back.
    Sucessful has nothing to do with being greedy, I think you are mixing them up. I encourage you to be sucessful, I warn you to be greedy.
    YOU make little sense to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    OK. So you start with nothing and you are successful. How does that make you greedy. Normally those who succeed, hold Charity events, contribute to their communities and provide jobs, pay taxes. Sorry I don't find that being greedy. I call it successful and giving back.
    Sucessful has nothing to do with being greedy, I think you are mixing them up. I encourage you to be sucessful, I warn you to be greedy.
    YOU make little sense to me
    Greedy from dictionary. Immoderately desirous of acquiring e.g. wealth
    Successful: Having succeeded or being marked by a favorable outcome.

    Babe, I hope this helps.
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    Rosebud.




    We dont know, and most people are starting right off by assuming it actually "began" before we even know if it has begun at all (imo). Note that when you start seeing rain failling on your head, you dont say, "oh that rain cloud that was raining over joe's head in another city outside my field of perception just moved into our field of view" you say "Hey lookout, its ~starting~ to rain"


    I agree that we want to know, how it works, so since we assume theres a beginning, we want to know what that beginning is/how it works which might shed additional light into how it works in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    In 100,000 years and mainly in the last 500, we have determined an enormous amount about the character of the universe. What might be achieved in one million years?
    What does that mean enormos amount? Compared to what?
    I think you know exactly what it means. Since I am directly comparing what we knew 100,000 years ago with what we know now then it likely, unless I am a seriously incompetent writer, that I am comparing what we knew then with what we know now.

    You appear to have an agenda, a theme, that we still have an enormous amount that we do not know, or (inclusive, or exclusive) that we abuse the knowledge we do have. The first point is trivially obvious, the second is contentious expressed in a broad brush fashion as you implicitly do. Neither falsifies the observation that we have learned an enormous amount.
    I am obviously asking the question because I do not know. I am still asking what we knew 100,000 years ago. If there was an idea of how much there is to know, one could make and assumption. What we know cannot be compared if the knowledge is infinite
    .

    The first point is trivially obvious, the second is contentious expressed in a broad brush fashion as you implicitly do.
    Why do you think I am being contentious? there is nothing to be contentious about, I am merly trying to clear up what is not clear to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I am still asking what we knew 100,000 years ago.
    All we knew 100,000 years ago is skills of daily survival - hunting, foraging for food, child bearing, very basic tool making etc. We knew nothing at all about principles of science, and hadn't developed reading and writing yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I am still asking what we knew 100,000 years ago.
    All we knew 100,000 years ago is skills of daily survival - hunting, foraging for food, child bearing, very basic tool making etc. We knew nothing at all about principles of science, and hadn't developed reading and writing yet.
    How can you definitively say that? Other cultures did exist and could have been far superior to what we are today, or not? The question I am really asking is how we can know how much knowledge we have acquired when the knowledge is infinite. It seems we cannot compare so what we know is infinitely small. Am I making any sense to you?
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    How can you definitively say that?
    Archaeological evidence.

    Other cultures did exist and could have been far superior to what we are today, or not?
    There would be evidence of that.

    Am I making any sense to you?
    No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    How can you definitively say that?
    Archaeological evidence.

    Other cultures did exist and could have been far superior to what we are today, or not?
    There would be evidence of that.

    Am I making any sense to you?
    No.
    How would you quantify what we know? On what would you measure it? If you measure on the ancient Egyptians, we could make a pretty good comparison to what we know today. We could also ask what did they know in comparison to the infinite knowledge of the universe.

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    Originally Posted by Flick Montana Okay, so you're suggesting a form of government in which no one has individual claim to property, all wealth is shared equally, and the people control the flow of this currency.

    What would you​ call it?

    I noticed you answered the same question on another thread about what a new system would not only look like, but what would it be called. I do not know what it would be called, but it would have to be how you explained.
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    I would call it a Utopian government. I would also call it unfeasible and unrealistic.
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    Stargate; Is the underlying question of your thread here basically ...why are we concerned with how the universe began (what is the rationale)...when we should be more concerned with the well being of humanity?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I would call it a Utopian government. I would also call it unfeasible and unrealistic.
    Nice names.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Stargate; Is the underlying question of your thread here basically ...why are we concerned with how the universe began (what is the rationale)...when we should be more concerned with the well being of humanity?
    Yes Wegs, We seem to be more interested in how the universe began, we already have a universe. the question of what would we do with that knowledge is really unknown. There might be at some point in the future a rationale, but at the moment how we treat our planet so we can live harmonious is more pressing. How we stop fighting each other and love each other is more rewarding.
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    We seem to be more interested in how the universe began, we already have a universe. the question of what would we do with that knowledge is really unknown. There might be at some point in the future a rationale, but at the moment how we treat our planet so we can live harmonious is more pressing. How we stop fighting each other and love each other is more rewarding.
    How do you know that a greater understanding of the origin and nature of the universe is not necessary to greater anthropic harmony?
    That knowledge for its own sake is of minimal value is a highly materialistic view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    We seem to be more interested in how the universe began, we already have a universe. the question of what would we do with that knowledge is really unknown. There might be at some point in the future a rationale, but at the moment how we treat our planet so we can live harmonious is more pressing. How we stop fighting each other and love each other is more rewarding.
    How do you know that a greater understanding of the origin and nature of the universe is not necessary to greater anthropic harmony?
    That knowledge for its own sake is of minimal value is a highly materialistic view.
    I am merely asking for the reason we want to know how the universe began. At the other end I am saying I see something more important and giving a reason why I think it is more important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Are private entities holding patents on publicly funded intellectual property?
    Probably.

    The particulars of the government grants were no doubt fulfilled. What ever other advantage I don't see too much of a problem with that anymore than I get upset at a trucking company making money off a new highway built with public dollars, private weather broadcasters using the government weather data network and government most powerful supercomputer driven prediction models, the online business making money using the government designed internet.

    See basic research much like building foundations that allow other economic to ride on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Are private entities holding patents on publicly funded intellectual property?
    Probably.

    The particulars of the government grants were no doubt fulfilled. What ever other advantage I don't see too much of a problem with that anymore than I get upset at a trucking company making money off a new highway built with public dollars, private weather broadcasters using the government weather data network and government most powerful supercomputer driven prediction models, the online business making money using the government designed internet.

    See basic research much like building foundations that allow other economic to ride on.
    Yea, that's one of the reasons for the road to be there, to facilitate things like trucking companies. But that's not an exclusive reason. My issue is with exclusivity, particularly regarding technologies who's implementation has human value beyond the mere stimulation of economic activity.
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
    -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.-
    Cat's Cradle.
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  74. #73  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
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    What is the definition of "Ignorant Greedy Few"? please.
    Ignorant in the sence that they do not realise that they are blocking the circulation of the worlds wealth because they are greedy, and there are only a few of them.
    OK. So you start with nothing and you are successful. How does that make you greedy. Normally those who succeed, hold Charity events, contribute to their communities and provide jobs, pay taxes. Sorry I don't find that being greedy. I call it successful and giving back.
    Sucessful has nothing to do with being greedy, I think you are mixing them up. I encourage you to be sucessful, I warn you to be greedy.
    YOU make little sense to me
    Greedy from dictionary. Immoderately desirous of acquiring e.g. wealth
    Successful: Having succeeded or being marked by a favorable outcome.

    Babe, I hope this helps.
    Then have been SUCCESSFUL. It was earned, not given, and what is done with it is no one's business.
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    Babe, I am not able to follow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Babe, I am not able to follow.
    If you read it it follows what I said. Obvious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Babe, I am not able to follow.
    If you read it it follows what I said. Obvious.
    OK. So you start with nothing and you are successful. How does that make you greedy. Normally those who succeed, hold Charity events, contribute to their communities and provide jobs, pay taxes. Sorry I don't find that being greedy. I call it successful and giving back.
    I was agreeing with your statement that one can be successful, but disagreeing with the connection that because you are successful you are not greedy. I was stating that they are not the same; you can be successful and not be greedy as much as you can be successful and be greedy. I think we are shifting the basis of the point. I am really addressing the system and not so much the one man doing his or her job to make a living. I am in total agreement with you that you should be able to make your money and spend it as you see fit. However, that is one side of the equation. The basis of the system was not created by you, only you have to follow it. If it is threatened, your business is threatened. There are people who are changing the system (politicians, law makers) if you look closely its taking a negative turn and needs to be addressed.
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