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Thread: Regulating Suicide

  1. #1 Regulating Suicide 
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    Should suicide rates be considered a part of "Societal Welfare"? Why or why not?


    "The parts in the thread that do discuss psychology are relevant though.... such as how degree of access effects the suicide rates--if they gun is locked up rather than in plain view and loaded drops the suicide rate by nearly half."


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    The rates of attempted and completed suicide attempts are certainly a matter for public health.

    One item of trivia. When people who've attempted suicide turn up at a mental health facility, the very first thing they do is to check thyroid levels. In many cases, remedying an underactive thyroid is the only course of action needed. People take a pill every day and they're never depressed, let alone suicidal, ever again.

    Mental health is a public health issue. Most suicidal people who are not suffering from terminal or otherwise intolerable conditions have some diagnosable mental health condition or fairly obvious personal or social problems. (Grief, disability and bullying would be the big ones here.) There are also general legal issues which can change the circumstances of people with certain problems to make them more or less (in)tolerable. Different countries with different provisions governing loans, land transfers, bankruptcy can find themselves with some people much more inclined to take suicide as their only way out of difficulties which people in other systems manage a lot better.

    Given our current state of medications and social service provision, that doesn't mean that diagnosed conditions or identified circumstances always lead to effective solutions or treatments.

    But yes. If researchers found that suicide was more common in, for example, drought affected farmers in one region compared to similarly affected farmers in another region and they found the only other significant difference between the groups was something-or-other that cost nothing to implement - why wouldn't a sensible, humane administration in that region adopt that something-or-other to see if it had a similar beneficial effect. Reducing the number of families suffering the distress that comes from suicide of a close relative is a social benefit not to be sneezed at.


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    Clearly a person can change their mind about suicide at any time.
    You can also change your mind about eating hot n' spicy wings. But once done, it's done. It's like that with a lot of things.

    I don't think grown people should be forced into something even under the idea they may change their mind about it, later.
    Just about anything can be termed as an issue of Societal welfare--- except over population. Politically, anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The rates of attempted and completed suicide attempts are certainly a matter for public health.

    One item of trivia. When people who've attempted suicide turn up at a mental health facility, the very first thing they do is to check thyroid levels. In many cases, remedying an underactive thyroid is the only course of action needed. People take a pill every day and they're never depressed, let alone suicidal, ever again.

    Mental health is a public health issue. Most suicidal people who are not suffering from terminal or otherwise intolerable conditions have some diagnosable mental health condition or fairly obvious personal or social problems. (Grief, disability and bullying would be the big ones here.) There are also general legal issues which can change the circumstances of people with certain problems to make them more or less (in)tolerable. Different countries with different provisions governing loans, land transfers, bankruptcy can find themselves with some people much more inclined to take suicide as their only way out of difficulties which people in other systems manage a lot better.

    Given our current state of medications and social service provision, that doesn't mean that diagnosed conditions or identified circumstances always lead to effective solutions or treatments.

    But yes. If researchers found that suicide was more common in, for example, drought affected farmers in one region compared to similarly affected farmers in another region and they found the only other significant difference between the groups was something-or-other that cost nothing to implement - why wouldn't a sensible, humane administration in that region adopt that something-or-other to see if it had a similar beneficial effect. Reducing the number of families suffering the distress that comes from suicide of a close relative is a social benefit not to be sneezed at.
    I cannot fault anything said above. My thoughts predominate upon the individual who is faced with impossibilities associated with continuing life: long-term medical treatment for terminal illness; old-age caused inability to live an acceptable level of life any longer; condition resulting from mental or financial burden (may be closely related); heartbreak; intolerable existence caused by an accident.... and so on.

    Generally, suicide is against the law, which on the face of it, sounds absurdly stupid. However, this gives prosecutors the ability to press charges related to "instigation": if one drives another to commit suicide, one has caused a human death to occur. In this case, what possible evidence could be presented in favor? Testimony of the living: "Yeah, he kept pimping the guy, until he kilt hisself. (My abberations). Data showing "sound mind suicide vs "induced-suicide" are welcome for inspection.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Donne
    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself,
    Every man is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thy friend's
    Or of thine own were:
    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly
    Clearly a person can change their mind about suicide at any time.
    You can also change your mind about eating hot n' spicy wings. But once done, it's done. It's like that with a lot of things.

    I don't think grown people should be forced into something even under the idea they may change their mind about it, later.
    Just about anything can be termed as an issue of Societal welfare--- except over population. Politically, anyway.
    I don't quite understand what you are getting at here? Eating hot wings generally has a minimal consequence, and is only one event in a contiguous string of experience. Suicide has much stronger consequences, and is the limit or end of a string of experiences. There is not a comparable equivalence here.

    I think you would be hard pressed to find an individual, outside of dogmatic religious belief, that doesn't support an end of life decision from chronic and terminal suffering. Not to mention that in places where such is legal, the processes used are humane and dignified. You know, not gross and traumatizing to the survivors.

    Surely, you cant mean that there is any good to be found in suicide outside this context? Especially when, as you've admitted and as shown in research, that suicidal impulses tend to be temporary. Imagine someone you care about as the potential suicide, you wouldn't take preventative measures?

    Here is a paper; http://ww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384446/
    Quote Originally Posted by Paper Abstract
    The feelings of loss, sadness, and loneliness experienced after any death of a loved one are often magnified in suicide survivors by feelings of quilt, confusion, rejection, shame, anger, and the effects of stigma and trauma. Furthermore, survivors of suicide loss are at higher risk of developing major depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and suicidal behaviors, as well as a prolonged form of grief called complicated grief.
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    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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    In this case, what possible evidence could be presented in favor?
    In the case of online stalking or bullying leading to suicide, the facebook, twitter and email records of everyone involved.

    Rehtaeh Parsons' cyberbullying death case leads to the arrest of two in Canada

    Amanda Todd: Bullied Canadian Teen Commits Suicide After Prolonged Battle Online And In School

    Or not online.

    Girl's suicide prompts law on bullying
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    In the case of terminal patients. Yes. I do belief in making a decision for that in that case.

    Suicide, other than that, hurts those you leave behind more than they could ever have known. It leaves them with grief, and the questions of "WHAT COULD I HAVE DONE?" and that is q question that can never be answered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    I don't quite understand what you are getting at here? Eating hot wings generally has a minimal consequence, and is only one event in a contiguous string of experience. Suicide has much stronger consequences, and is the limit or end of a string of experiences. There is not a comparable equivalence here.
    Nonsense. It's comparable considering that all our opinions on such things are based on our perceptions and illusions...
    If you poison some rats in your attic- do you care about them? Why or why not?
    See, truth told- I care- I refuse to poison them.
    But my caring about it is based on my illusions- not on any kind of actual reality. In actual reality- every single last one of us is going to die. The after affect will still be there and no matter what the cause of death is; it will likely lead to guilt, sense of loss and such on those close to them.
    It makes no difference except to our illusions.
    The Universe Does Not Care. Everyone that ever may have cared or will care will die too and then no one will be left to care.
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Surely, you cant mean that there is any good
    Define "good?"
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    to be found in suicide outside this context?
    I suppose that is up to the person wanting to die, isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Especially when, as you've admitted and as shown in research, that suicidal impulses tend to be temporary. Imagine someone you care about as the potential suicide, you wouldn't take preventative measures?
    I can speak from experience on this. And yes, I took a lot of preventive measures. In the end, my friend still committed suicide when no one was around to stop it.
    My point is that yes, it's often temporary, like almost everything. And almost every temporary thing cannot be undone.
    So why stop at suicide? The reason being is because most people perceive that kind of finish as "too final." But this is based solely on our evolved instinct to fight death all the way. I'm just saying... Just because it may be temporary doesn't give anyone the right to enforce or use force on another person under the idea it may subside. Because it is against their wishes.
    Consider a person going against your last will and testament because you might have changed your mind later. It's just as "too final," is it not?

    I understand what your point is- I'm not heartless. I even care about rats. I don't think we really disagree all that much, even.
    Because while I oppose the idea of forcing a person to live if they do not wish it- I am not so opposed to it that I'd fight for it as a cause tooth and nail, either. I understand that perspectives on this one vary and a suicidal person may even be grateful, at times, to those that stopped them.
    I believe in Freedom to choose for ones OWN LIFE above all else.
    I do not believe that peripheral effect gives others the right to dictate what you do or do not do unless it represents a danger or immediate physical harm to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Should suicide rates be considered a part of "Societal Welfare"? Why or why not?


    "The parts in the thread that do discuss psychology are relevant though.... such as how degree of access effects the suicide rates--if they gun is locked up rather than in plain view and loaded drops the suicide rate by nearly half."
    yes more welfare more suicide there are many aspect why this goes...
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly
    Nonsense. It's comparable considering that all our opinions on such things are based on our perceptions and illusions...
    Ah, but we are talking of life vs. death, an empirical observation of biological function. In this case objective, not subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly
    I do not believe that peripheral effect gives others the right to dictate what you do or do not do unless it represents a danger or immediate physical harm to them.
    Well then, here is your danger and physical harm;
    Here is a paper; http://ww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384446/

    Originally Posted by Paper Abstract
    The feelings of loss, sadness, and loneliness experienced after any death of a loved one are often magnified in suicide survivors by feelings of quilt, confusion, rejection, shame, anger, and the effects of stigma and trauma. Furthermore, survivors of suicide loss are at higher risk of developing major depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and suicidal behaviors, as well as a prolonged form of grief called complicated grief.


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    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Donne
    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself,
    Every man is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thy friend's
    Or of thine own were:
    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly
    Clearly a person can change their mind about suicide at any time.
    You can also change your mind about eating hot n' spicy wings. But once done, it's done. It's like that with a lot of things.

    I don't think grown people should be forced into something even under the idea they may change their mind about it, later.
    Just about anything can be termed as an issue of Societal welfare--- except over population. Politically, anyway.
    I don't quite understand what you are getting at here? Eating hot wings generally has a minimal consequence, and is only one event in a contiguous string of experience. Suicide has much stronger consequences, and is the limit or end of a string of experiences. There is not a comparable equivalence here.

    I think you would be hard pressed to find an individual, outside of dogmatic religious belief, that doesn't support an end of life decision from chronic and terminal suffering. Not to mention that in places where such is legal, the processes used are humane and dignified. You know, not gross and traumatizing to the survivors.

    Surely, you cant mean that there is any good to be found in suicide outside this context? Especially when, as you've admitted and as shown in research, that suicidal impulses tend to be temporary. Imagine someone you care about as the potential suicide, you wouldn't take preventative measures?

    Here is a paper; http://ww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384446/
    Quote Originally Posted by Paper Abstract
    The feelings of loss, sadness, and loneliness experienced after any death of a loved one are often magnified in suicide survivors by feelings of quilt, confusion, rejection, shame, anger, and the effects of stigma and trauma. Furthermore, survivors of suicide loss are at higher risk of developing major depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, and suicidal behaviors, as well as a prolonged form of grief called complicated grief.
    Eating hot wings can cause you to suffer heart burn, and you'd probably live to experience lots of other unpleasant realities of life, as well as pleasantries.

    But after suicide you never experience anything bad again. sure you don't experience anything good either, but I don't see the downside of non-existence.

    I would of course try to talk someone I love out of suicide but I don't feel I could or should force them to live. I can only hope they change their mind. But ultimately my desire for them to live would be as selfish as their desire to die. So it is just pitting one will against another. And who should say who has right over one's own body.

    The prochoice movement supports a woman's right to her own body. She has the right to do anything with it she wants, even if it offends people who feel she is killing another person. But it is inside her body, so it is her right to do what she wants to her body. Shouldn't she also have the right to end her own life? And shouldn't this right be equally dispensed to all people? Shouldn't men also have the right to their own body, up to and including any life within it?
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    I also think there's a conceptual difference between the choice to take dying now as the better option than dying after unrelieved, unimaginable suffering and the decision to end it now because your life, now, is intolerable for social or family relationship reasons.

    The first option is an individual decision by an individual for individual purposes. The grief of family and friends is already a given because they know what's coming anyway, they just don't know the exact timing.

    The second option is an individual decision for family or social reasons without the whole social or family group knowing that the decision is being made and they are actually denied the opportunity to participate. As it happens, people who are really really determined to kill themselves will eventually do so, but in those cases their intentions and behaviours have become part of the same kind of family and social process that other terminal illness involves.

    I had one friend who became suicidal. After several failed attempts she was admitted to a psychiatric hospital a few times. We had people basically rostered day in day out to visit and sit with her and talk to her, just as families and friends do with people who are seriously physically sick. In the end, she killed herself - and her funeral was the same kind of experience as with other people who've been sick for a long time. Sad but inevitable.

    Other friends had 3 children, two of whom were being bullied at school. They were dealing with the school, with the kids, with doctors, talking to friends, ringing the Education Department - all the usual stuff. Then one day they came home and drove around the house to the garage and one of the kids was dead in the backyard. They've eventually learned to live with it, but many years of their lives have been blighted by self-blame and if onlys and what ifs and hour after endless hour of counselling and sleeping tablets and anti-depressants. And we. all. know. that if they'd pulled him out of that school that he'd still be here. He would have grown up and either got over it entirely or learned to manage the impacts.

    It's all very well saying that they couldn't have known that he would have chosen that day and that method for suicide. If people at the school and in the medical profession had taken different approaches - ones informed by the knowledge that this sort of outcome can be prevented by simple, trivially obvious, actions on their part - then this wouldn't have happened. That's where mental health research and recommendations can help prevent suicide.

    One friends suicide was pretty well inevitable. The best psychiatric care and the dedicated love and attention of family and friends could not save her.

    The child's suicide was entirely preventable.

    That's where mental health initiatives of public health bodies can work. Find out what's preventable and publicise and implement the preventive measures.
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  14. #13  
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    There is also a growing body of work that suggests some suicide is biological in its origins. Such as what adelady said of thyroid issues.
    And there's Toxoplasma Gondii; Common parasite may trigger suicide attempts | MSUToday | Michigan State University
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I also think there's a conceptual difference between the choice to take dying now as the better option than dying after unrelieved, unimaginable suffering and the decision to end it now because your life, now, is intolerable for social or family relationship reasons.

    The first option is an individual decision by an individual for individual purposes. The grief of family and friends is already a given because they know what's coming anyway, they just don't know the exact timing.

    The second option is an individual decision for family or social reasons without the whole social or family group knowing that the decision is being made and they are actually denied the opportunity to participate. As it happens, people who are really really determined to kill themselves will eventually do so, but in those cases their intentions and behaviours have become part of the same kind of family and social process that other terminal illness involves.

    I had one friend who became suicidal. After several failed attempts she was admitted to a psychiatric hospital a few times. We had people basically rostered day in day out to visit and sit with her and talk to her, just as families and friends do with people who are seriously physically sick. In the end, she killed herself - and her funeral was the same kind of experience as with other people who've been sick for a long time. Sad but inevitable.

    Other friends had 3 children, two of whom were being bullied at school. They were dealing with the school, with the kids, with doctors, talking to friends, ringing the Education Department - all the usual stuff. Then one day they came home and drove around the house to the garage and one of the kids was dead in the backyard. They've eventually learned to live with it, but many years of their lives have been blighted by self-blame and if onlys and what ifs and hour after endless hour of counselling and sleeping tablets and anti-depressants. And we. all. know. that if they'd pulled him out of that school that he'd still be here. He would have grown up and either got over it entirely or learned to manage the impacts.

    It's all very well saying that they couldn't have known that he would have chosen that day and that method for suicide. If people at the school and in the medical profession had taken different approaches - ones informed by the knowledge that this sort of outcome can be prevented by simple, trivially obvious, actions on their part - then this wouldn't have happened. That's where mental health research and recommendations can help prevent suicide.

    One friends suicide was pretty well inevitable. The best psychiatric care and the dedicated love and attention of family and friends could not save her.

    The child's suicide was entirely preventable.

    That's where mental health initiatives of public health bodies can work. Find out what's preventable and publicise and implement the preventive measures.
    I wouldn't be so sure that its possible to know that taking him out of that school would have saved the kid. Maybe it would have maybe it wouldn't have. They will never really know, and claiming to know is just another method of self blame. It seems the parents did everything they knew how to help the kid but it may have been more than just the environment the kid was in. He/she may have already been predisposed to depression. I know of lots of kids, myself being one of them that suffer bullying and emotional trauma at the hands of classmates. Some handle it well and others don't. I didn't. I was plotting the murder of most of my classmates with no intention of killing myself. I figured the cops would take care of that because I had no intention of running. As embarrassing as it may sound, one temporary delusional psychosis prevented the actions of another temporary delusional psychosis. While I wanted them dead and myself as well. I was a believer in god at the time. And I didn't want to spend eternity in hell for those pathetic excuses for people. They weren't worth it.

    No one even attempted to help me even though I had all the textbook signs of depression as well as homicidal/suicidal thoughts. I wasn't secretive of it. But no one took me seriously. They thought I was kidding, trying for attention, or just being my usual creepy self. But I was dead serious. It was just my religious conflicts that prevented it.

    People will do what they will do. We can never be certain what effect any outside action will have on another individual. The human mind is still much a mystery.

    It's always sad when kid gives in to suicide, worse mass homicide/suicide. But blaming ourselves for the irreversible choices of others is unhealthy and futile. All we can do is learn from the past and try something different if the unfortunate situation presents itself again.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    All we can do is learn from the past and try something different if the unfortunate situation presents itself again.
    Exactly.

    There's no need for everyone to learn the hard way. We can learn from others' experiences of the past.

    Given this situation we'd all hope the school would handle bullying allegations differently afterwards. Wouldn't we?
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    All we can do is learn from the past and try something different if the unfortunate situation presents itself again.
    Exactly.

    There's no need for everyone to learn the hard way. We can learn from others' experiences of the past.

    Given this situation we'd all hope the school would handle bullying allegations differently afterwards. Wouldn't we?
    Agreed. But so far we haven't found a consistently effective means of dealing with it. Each case is different and has different psychologies involved. It's going to be a long agonizing road to figure this one out.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Agreed. But so far we haven't found a consistently effective means of dealing with it. Each case is different and has different psychologies involved. It's going to be a long agonizing road to figure this one out.
    Long before we've sorted out the psychology, neurology, biology involved, we can use epidemiology.

    Especially when it comes to workplaces, schools, industries, regions. It's pretty easy to get the numbers and identify obvious differences then you can look at correlations.

    Then look at other differences and similarities. Even if you have no causal explanation or even a coherent hypothesis for an apparent correlation, if imitating a difference in policy or approach has little to no cost, why wouldn't you try it? You couldn't change the average income or the geography of a location, for instance, but you can change behaviours and policies of people responsible for the safety and wellbeing of others.

    Sometimes you can do minor, inexpensive alterations to layouts and physical features or regulate the uses of buildings in schools or shopping centres to make it more difficult for people to be cornered by bullies. (Me? I'd make major changes to locker and other arrangements in many schools to improve relationships. It sounds strange but it has worked in a few places.)
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Suicide, is indeed, as many discussed a negative effect by providing grief to others. Although i would question does this grief wake people up to the actual conditions that are causing people to take such drastic actions? If it is than it shows a fundamental problem within society that can't be corrected because it is treated as a social norm to those people.

    Like bullying case as mentioned, if adults who experienced bullying didn't think it would lead to suicide and it didn't, the chance is that actions are not taken against bullying and so it becomes cyclical in nature, like a vicious cycle. I see that we can reason that vicious cycles are not good and that it provides a boat load of negative effects on individuals stuck in it. However due to many people deciding to conform to it or just live it out, usually these vicious cycles tend to go unnoticed and when finally such a drastic action is taken before it is acted upon.

    Suicide is good in that way, it alerts us of the real problems that are oversighted. It is the most drastic and most inefficient and costly signal, but the problem won't be countered till the problem has risen to our alarm and so until no vicious cycles exist, then probably the vicious cycle of suicide would stop altogether. Thus a utopia would have been achieved since no one feels pressured to obey higher ups or do what they feel is killing them. I guess until we scrutinize and become more aware to the problems that exist everywhere, then can suicide be stopped and to achieve a deadened but safe society which is good.

    However if without it, society would probably not progress to understand some problems that plague itself and which is ignored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    In the case of terminal patients. Yes. I do belief in making a decision for that in that case.
    Completely agree. I'd just want confirmation from a couple of physicians and legal protections so insurance can't screw the surviving beneficiary.
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    Abortion and suicide should both be legal. They are both personal choices that other people have absolutely no right to decide over.

    Hearing people trying to forbid euthanasia in terminal ill patients is especially lose-faith-in-humanity inducing. Especially when they are sincere in their delusional belief that they are doing something morally good in "Stopping a person under tremendous suffering from ending his life when terminally ill and unable to even move"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    In the case of terminal patients. Yes. I do belief in making a decision for that in that case.
    Completely agree. I'd just want confirmation from a couple of physicians and legal protections so insurance can't screw the surviving beneficiary.
    Absolutely because insurance will not pay out for suicides. THAT needs to be amended. Assisted death for terminal patients should be excluded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Abortion and suicide should both be legal. They are both personal choices that other people have absolutely no right to decide over.

    Hearing people trying to forbid euthanasia in terminal ill patients is especially lose-faith-in-humanity inducing. Especially when they are sincere in their delusional belief that they are doing something morally good in "Stopping a person under tremendous suffering from ending his life when terminally ill and unable to even move"
    absolutely ....in cases where there is NO as in ZERO hope....the cruelity of them living.....when nephew got to that point and they said, well we could "try ' this and he's already bleeding out from radiation....and he looked at his mom, my sister, and his wife, and said, NO MORE!!! He was done. I get very emotional when I talk about him. He fought so hard. He didn't want to leave his family. But he also knew when it was time to stop. All the morphine in the world didn't keep him from pain. Again. We treat our pets better.
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    Interestingly, it was ten years ago today (21 Oct 2003) that Florida Governor Jeb Bush invoked a hastily-passed law ordering a feeding-tube reinserted into Terry Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman at the center of a bitter, and highly publicized, right-to-die battle. jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Interestingly, it was ten years ago today (21 Oct 2003) that Florida Governor Jeb Bush invoked a hastily-passed law ordering a feeding-tube reinserted into Terry Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman at the center of a bitter, and highly publicized, right-to-die battle. jocular
    which was WRONG WRONG WRONG IMHO
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Interestingly, it was ten years ago today (21 Oct 2003) that Florida Governor Jeb Bush invoked a hastily-passed law ordering a feeding-tube reinserted into Terry Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman at the center of a bitter, and highly publicized, right-to-die battle. jocular
    which was WRONG WRONG WRONG IMHO
    Wrong to invoke the law, or wrong to react to a media "circus"? Recalling as best I can, the doctors unanimously expressed absolutely no hope existed, the husband saw it through for quite a very long time, and desired finality, but other relatives on the patient's side claimed they had seen "signs" of life such as a finger moved, slight smile, eye movements, etc. It appeared after all was said and done to be a battle over an estate, driven by greed, IMO. joc
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Interestingly, it was ten years ago today (21 Oct 2003) that Florida Governor Jeb Bush invoked a hastily-passed law ordering a feeding-tube reinserted into Terry Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman at the center of a bitter, and highly publicized, right-to-die battle. jocular
    which was WRONG WRONG WRONG IMHO
    Wrong to invoke the law, or wrong to react to a media "circus"? Recalling as best I can, the doctors unanimously expressed absolutely no hope existed, the husband saw it through for quite a very long time, and desired finality, but other relatives on the patient's side claimed they had seen "signs" of life such as a finger moved, slight smile, eye movements, etc. It appeared after all was said and done to be a battle over an estate, driven by greed, IMO. joc
    Wrong to react to the media "circus". The doctors had already declared her legally brain dead...husband accepted, and I am sure that wasn't easy and for the family to push this because they couldn't accept and for the governor to ok over the husband's (and supposively his dead wife's wishes) and decisions...wrong.....wrong....wrong..
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    You can't regulate suicide. You can only regulate suicide attempts. If the attempt is successful, it's beyond regulation.
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    Its the way nature is!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    You can't regulate suicide. You can only regulate suicide attempts. If the attempt is successful, it's beyond regulation.
    And to achieve such regulation then, elimination of access of the entire population to the tools used to commit suicide would be a viable step toward reducing suicide rates? jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    You can't regulate suicide. You can only regulate suicide attempts. If the attempt is successful, it's beyond regulation.
    And to achieve such regulation then, elimination of access of the entire population to the tools used to commit suicide would be a viable step toward reducing suicide rates? jocular
    Like sheets, ropes, cars?
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