Notices
Results 1 to 48 of 48
Like Tree14Likes
  • 2 Post By Janus
  • 1 Post By Delta Flyer
  • 1 Post By babe
  • 1 Post By Harold14370
  • 2 Post By billvon
  • 1 Post By Flick Montana
  • 1 Post By cosmictraveler
  • 1 Post By Delta Flyer
  • 2 Post By Noa Drake
  • 2 Post By cosmictraveler

Thread: Vehicular Longevity

  1. #1 Vehicular Longevity 
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,773
    I peruse several car & truck forums regularly. The general concensus seems to be that today, typical longevity of newly-made vehicles, regardless of origin, is far greater than was to be expected let's say, 50 years ago, when I "cut my teeth" on disassembling, probing, studying, and cursing, the old tin cans then being built.

    To be sure, 100,000 miles operated by a given unit then was about the reasonable limit, after which various major repairs were generally needed, valves, piston rings, and crankshaft bearings being chief offenders. Today, double that mileage seems commonly to be achieved trouble-free. Knowing that today's typical automobiles sell new for at least 10 times what they did 50 years ago, are we buying bargains today, or being "scalped"? jocular


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    I, and my 19 year old Porsche with 189,000 miles on it and running like a charm, were totaled by another two vehicles.

    I think it depends on the car maker, and the car.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Moderator Moderator Janus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,070
    You have to take a lot of factors into account. For example, inflation by itself accounts for ~650% of the increase in the cost of a car over the last 50 years. So by that factor alone a car that lasts twice as long and cost 10 times more is a bargain. Then you have to consider all the additional features that generally come standard with cars today that would have either been expensive options or not even available for cars 50 years ago.

    To put some perspective on it, 50 years ago, the avergage car cost about as much as the average cost for a house.
    John Galt and scheherazade like this.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


    Edit/Delete Message
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    You have to take a lot of factors into account. For example, inflation by itself accounts for ~650% of the increase in the cost of a car over the last 50 years. So by that factor alone a car that lasts twice as long and cost 10 times more is a bargain. Then you have to consider all the additional features that generally come standard with cars today that would have either been expensive options or not even available for cars 50 years ago.

    To put some perspective on it, 50 years ago, the avergage car cost about as much as the average cost for a house.
    You sound like my spouse! *L*
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    I always thought it would be the other way around... That older cars were built tougher, and lasted longer, than the ones we build these days - but I guess it only appears that way, which makes sense as the only oldies I'll ever see are the ones that are still kicking or have been restored.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    I always thought it would be the other way around... That older cars were built tougher, and lasted longer, than the ones we build these days - but I guess it only appears that way, which makes sense as the only oldies I'll ever see are the ones that are still kicking or have been restored.
    You are gonna make me cry!

    My 928 Porsche I had just restored before I got to be the meat in the sandwich!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Black Forest
    Posts
    21
    Inflation-wise, $1 in 1963 is worth $7.63 today. Thus, if vehicles lasted the same now as then, but we were paying 10x as much, we'd be getting a little ripped off. But if they're lasting twice as long, we're getting a good deal.
    scheherazade likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    I'd like to see support for the claim that vehicles of today last twice as long...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by Delta Flyer View Post
    Inflation-wise, $1 in 1963 is worth $7.63 today. Thus, if vehicles lasted the same now as then, but we were paying 10x as much, we'd be getting a little ripped off. But if they're lasting twice as long, we're getting a good deal.
    Spousy finally bought a new car after 21 years...don't ask me why he didn't before.....his new car after 2 years has 80,000 miles on it....it will last for about 250 or more....NOT all cars last longer....some do however...

    but the oldies..from Porsche, Mercedes and the old VW BUGS..they are still running strong
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    I always thought it would be the other way around... That older cars were built tougher, and lasted longer, than the ones we build these days - but I guess it only appears that way, which makes sense as the only oldies I'll ever see are the ones that are still kicking or have been restored.
    You are gonna make me cry!

    My 928 Porsche I had just restored before I got to be the meat in the sandwich!
    That's rough babe. I hope you stepped out of the vehicle in good health, if not for the broken heart. I too long for my old car, granted, it was no Porsche. All the same... I miss my glorious 1989 Civic Hatchback...



    Mine was blue, arguably deep purple. Some good times were had cruising around in that old beater...
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    I always thought it would be the other way around... That older cars were built tougher, and lasted longer, than the ones we build these days - but I guess it only appears that way, which makes sense as the only oldies I'll ever see are the ones that are still kicking or have been restored.
    You are gonna make me cry!

    My 928 Porsche I had just restored before I got to be the meat in the sandwich!
    That's rough babe. I hope you stepped out of the vehicle in good health, if not for the broken heart. I too long for my old car, granted, it was no Porsche. All the same... I miss my glorious 1989 Civic Hatchback...



    Mine was blue, arguably deep purple. Some good times were had cruising around in that old beater...



    Nope...not so lucky.

    Smashed between two cars....matching Toyota Camry's down to the color...played bouncing ball...and of course this is a 1981....no air bags.....mistake was turning so, like triple whip lash....they thought I broke my neck.... Trapped, couldn't get me out of the car....40 minutes to cut me out....backboard, hospital...nope..wish I was unschatheed...neck, back spinal, SI and hip injuries....but I'm one stubborn Slovenian redhead *S*....they told me I wouldn't walk ...I told them to F*** themselves....said I'd never do another show...was on stage 6 months later....dancing sucks.....long haul....permanent and now they believe my glaucoma was trauma induced. I have 300,000 eyes alone *chuckle* Let's just say...you can choose to wallow in pain pills and misery or you can forge forward and learn to most of the time put your brain above the pain.

    The funniest thing was the ER doctor said, the first thing I asked him was, "IS MY CAR TOTALLED" *L* that is loving a car.
    stander-j likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,822
    My experience has been that cars do last far longer nowadays. That may be because I've had cars in the past that rusted out in a matter of a few years. I have a Honda that's lasted 14 years and still hasn't rusted through anywhere. I never took any special care of it either. Never even washed it, and drove it on the salty roads in the winter.
    scheherazade likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post




    Nope...not so lucky.

    Smashed between two cars....matching Toyota Camry's down to the color...played bouncing ball...and of course this is a 1981....no air bags.....mistake was turning so, like triple whip lash....they thought I broke my neck.... Trapped, couldn't get me out of the car....40 minutes to cut me out....backboard, hospital...nope..wish I was unschatheed...neck, back spinal, SI and hip injuries....but I'm one stubborn Slovenian redhead *S*....they told me I wouldn't walk ...I told them to F*** themselves....said I'd never do another show...was on stage 6 months later....dancing sucks.....long haul....permanent and now they believe my glaucoma was trauma induced. I have 300,000 eyes alone *chuckle* Let's just say...you can choose to wallow in pain pills and misery or you can forge forward and learn to most of the time put your brain above the pain.

    The funniest thing was the ER doctor said, the first thing I asked him was, "IS MY CAR TOTALLED" *L* that is loving a car.
    In that case it's good to hear you made what sounds like a damn-near full recovery, and didn't take any shit from that old reaper to boot.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    My experience has been that cars do last far longer nowadays. That may be because I've had cars in the past that rusted out in a matter of a few years. I have a Honda that's lasted 14 years and still hasn't rusted through anywhere. I never took any special care of it either. Never even washed it, and drove it on the salty roads in the winter.
    I'm gonna have to spank you like a bad little boy!

    YOU DID NOT WASH YOUR CAR?

    SHAME on you!

    GLARE
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post




    Nope...not so lucky.

    Smashed between two cars....matching Toyota Camry's down to the color...played bouncing ball...and of course this is a 1981....no air bags.....mistake was turning so, like triple whip lash....they thought I broke my neck.... Trapped, couldn't get me out of the car....40 minutes to cut me out....backboard, hospital...nope..wish I was unschatheed...neck, back spinal, SI and hip injuries....but I'm one stubborn Slovenian redhead *S*....they told me I wouldn't walk ...I told them to F*** themselves....said I'd never do another show...was on stage 6 months later....dancing sucks.....long haul....permanent and now they believe my glaucoma was trauma induced. I have 300,000 eyes alone *chuckle* Let's just say...you can choose to wallow in pain pills and misery or you can forge forward and learn to most of the time put your brain above the pain.

    The funniest thing was the ER doctor said, the first thing I asked him was, "IS MY CAR TOTALLED" *L* that is loving a car.
    In that case it's good to hear you made what sounds like a damn-near full recovery, and didn't take any shit from that old reaper to boot.
    Nah just had to move from Northern Cali to Hawai'i to walk most of the year after 18 months of PT.

    Spousy visits and I come home Cali for a couple months in the summer to can.

    Which reminds me...I am canning dill pickles tomorrow...farmer has a lug of them for me *S*

    Marinara next week and then hopefully albacore tuna before I leave back home to Kohala
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post




    Nope...not so lucky.

    Smashed between two cars....matching Toyota Camry's down to the color...played bouncing ball...and of course this is a 1981....no air bags.....mistake was turning so, like triple whip lash....they thought I broke my neck.... Trapped, couldn't get me out of the car....40 minutes to cut me out....backboard, hospital...nope..wish I was unschatheed...neck, back spinal, SI and hip injuries....but I'm one stubborn Slovenian redhead *S*....they told me I wouldn't walk ...I told them to F*** themselves....said I'd never do another show...was on stage 6 months later....dancing sucks.....long haul....permanent and now they believe my glaucoma was trauma induced. I have 300,000 eyes alone *chuckle* Let's just say...you can choose to wallow in pain pills and misery or you can forge forward and learn to most of the time put your brain above the pain.

    The funniest thing was the ER doctor said, the first thing I asked him was, "IS MY CAR TOTALLED" *L* that is loving a car.
    In that case it's good to hear you made what sounds like a damn-near full recovery, and didn't take any shit from that old reaper to boot.
    Not really. I'm just buck ******* stubborn and my eyes have been the trauma that has cost me 5 and the 6th pending from it....as per my doc's.....

    I am very tenacious.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    I'd ask who wants pickles but they go like wild cakes.

    Nephew requested 6 quarts for his b-d pressie *L*
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    1,972
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Knowing that today's typical automobiles sell new for at least 10 times what they did 50 years ago, are we buying bargains today, or being "scalped"? jocular
    Well:

    1) Cars are a lot more efficient than they were 50 years ago
    2) Cars are a lot safer than they were 50 years ago
    3) Cars can do more than they did 50 years ago
    4) Cars really only cost about 30% more than they did 50 years ago counting inflation
    5) They're a lot more complex and have GPS maps, satellite radio, heated seats etc
    6) They last longer

    I think they're a pretty good deal.
    jocular and babe like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Flatland
    Posts
    5,438
    Cars could potentially last longer with advancement in materials. Modern cars might last longer because of that or they might live very short lives since they are more mechanically and electronically complicated. The average person can't really work on their own car any more now that computers have taken them over. When I made major changes to my car, I had to take it to a shop with the right computer software to tune the computer to match the mechanics.

    If you properly maintain any car, it can last a long time. Modern cars have so much more that can​ go wrong, though.
    jocular likes this.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    1,972
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    If you properly maintain any car, it can last a long time. Modern cars have so much more that can​ go wrong, though.
    True - but in general they are things that are inherently more reliable. Rings/bearings/bushings wear out; electronics, in general, do not.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Rings/bearings/bushings wear out; electronics, in general, do not.
    Oh, yes they do.

    I spent a full day repairing the ABS control unit three months ago, where the solder joints had given out. 7 or so months before that, I had to re-solder the ECM connections.

    And two days ago, the ABS light came back on, showing more solder joints have recently given out...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    1,972
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Oh, yes they do.

    I spent a full day repairing the ABS control unit three months ago, where the solder joints had given out. 7 or so months before that, I had to re-solder the ECM connections.

    And two days ago, the ABS light came back on, showing more solder joints have recently given out...
    Well, that's not wearout, that's a manufacturing defect. Well soldered connections do not "wear out."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Well, that's not wearout, that's a manufacturing defect. Well soldered connections do not "wear out."
    They may not on your home P.C. but when installed in a moving vehicle that bumps around and vibrates...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    1,972
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    They may not on your home P.C. but when installed in a moving vehicle that bumps around and vibrates...
    Solder junctions have been used on the Saturn V launch vehicle, the Space Shuttle, on the Abrams M-1 tank . . . . they all bump around and vibrate (a lot more than a car!) and don't have problems with bad solder connections.

    You can screw up anything. You can use the wrong size rings, you can use leaky CV joint boots, you can forget strain relief for solder junctions, you can get reflow temperatures wrong. But all of those are manufacturing/design defects, not a problem with rings, CV joints or solder joints.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Solder junctions have been used on the Saturn V launch vehicle, the Space Shuttle, on the Abrams M-1 tank . . . . they all bump around and vibrate (a lot more than a car!) and don't have problems with bad solder connections.
    Ummm... I haven't worked on the Saturn V, but I have experience with the M1A2 Abrams and the Paladin Howitzer and have first hand experience repairing the latter-Yes, the solder joints DO give out on those vehicles. I've also seen them give out on HMMWV equipped with sensitive equipment. About the only machine I operated in the military that never gave out was the PADS - which I sometimes wondered if I could nuke it and it'd keep on ticking...

    And even if a variety of manufacturing defects are the cause- we'll say- that doesn't mean that the joints don't give out because clearly, they do.
    Even if they give out because of a defect.

    And to continue that thought- if manufacturing defects are the cause, apparently those manufacturing defects are not fully preventable because again, these joints just keep on giving out.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,773
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Cars could potentially last longer with advancement in materials. Modern cars might last longer because of that or they might live very short lives since they are more mechanically and electronically complicated. The average person can't really work on their own car any more now that computers have taken them over. When I made major changes to my car, I had to take it to a shop with the right computer software to tune the computer to match the mechanics.

    If you properly maintain any car, it can last a long time. Modern cars have so much more that cango wrong, though.
    If you don't mind, I feel compelled to respond:
    1. Could the average person do so before? Assuming they could, those who really could, can be made aware of several important facts: the engine still needs fuel, air, and ignition in order to run. No matter HOW it is delivered, average ability STILL can troubleshoot knowing those basics apply just as they always did.
    2. Given a typical EFI equipped vehicle today, using Mass Air technology instead of "guesstimate volume", we can happily modify by adding supercharging, exhaust-driven turbocharging, camshaft changes (given NO factory-built variable valve timing), change compression ratio ("shave heads", etc.), bore and/or stroke (under 10% displacement increase, approx., without fuel recalibration), the factory-shipped Engine Control Computer can accommodate these kinds of teen-age-originated hop-ups without missing a beat
    3. I can't imagine what sort of modification(s) you included which required computer intervention. Please tell us, what were they, make, year, etc.? joc
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,773
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Oh, yes they do.

    I spent a full day repairing the ABS control unit three months ago, where the solder joints had given out. 7 or so months before that, I had to re-solder the ECM connections.

    And two days ago, the ABS light came back on, showing more solder joints have recently given out...
    Well, that's not wearout, that's a manufacturing defect. Well soldered connections do not "wear out."
    Right you are. I might tell of, however, an interesting modification I performed, then learned of serious possible disastrous consequences which could result from it. My 2004 Ford Explorer has no transmission fluid dispstick. Checking level is done underneath the vehicle, adding or changing fluid is very difficult, and this situation pissed me off to the extent that I took down the transmission pan and brazed a steel elbow compression fitting to the side of it, using typical phosphor-bronze brazing rod. I then inserted a 3/4" OD thinwall steel tube of appropriate length into the fitting, the upper end terminating in the usual dipstick location. A dipstick to fit was easily found, calibrated, and inserted. Rather proud of this "much needed" (!) mod. I told my nephew of it, he being a retired U.S.Marine who had been made a certified welder while serving. He warned me that brazed joints are prone to cracking induced by vibration! Jesus, now I faced the dilemma of possibly losing all the fluid on some remote highway stretch! Undaunted, I fabricated a bracket which secured the upper end of the dipstick tube to the engine's cylinder head. It's worked trouble-free with not a drop of leakage for over 40,000 miles now.

    Really lucky I didn't solder that damned fitting, eh? jocular
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Prone to failure does not guarantee failure- it merely means the odds of it happening are higher.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,773
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    They may not on your home P.C. but when installed in a moving vehicle that bumps around and vibrates...
    Solder junctions have been used on the Saturn V launch vehicle, the Space Shuttle, on the Abrams M-1 tank . . . . they all bump around and vibrate (a lot more than a car!) and don't have problems with bad solder connections.

    You can screw up anything. You can use the wrong size rings, you can use leaky CV joint boots, you can forget strain relief for solder junctions, you can get reflow temperatures wrong. But all of those are manufacturing/design defects, not a problem with rings, CV joints or solder joints.
    And then, we have "wave-soldering"! joc
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    1,972
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    And to continue that thought- if manufacturing defects are the cause, apparently those manufacturing defects are not fully preventable because again, these joints just keep on giving out.
    Well, by your argument they are - because in some cases, with some combination of design and manufacturing, those defects ARE preventable.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    And to continue that thought- if manufacturing defects are the cause, apparently those manufacturing defects are not fully preventable because again, these joints just keep on giving out.
    Well, by your argument they are - because in some cases, with some combination of design and manufacturing, those defects ARE preventable.
    Valid enough... But I could point out how mechanical bearing failure is often preventable. I recall a Steam Locomotive taken apart that had been built back in the thirties and had a long run- the inspector was amazed at the pristine condition of the bearings and commented they could be installed in again elsewhere.
    As long as manufacturers must keep production costs low, even being preventable in 'theory' is not the same as being preventable in practice.

    I could be very wrong on this, though... if you have evidence that such failures in solder joints are easily preventable, I'm open to it. Might give me cause to really cuss Jeep out...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Flatland
    Posts
    5,438
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If you don't mind, I feel compelled to respond:
    1. Could the average person do so before? Assuming they could, those who really could, can be made aware of several important facts: the engine still needs fuel, air, and ignition in order to run. No matter HOW it is delivered, average ability STILL can troubleshoot knowing those basics apply just as they always did.
    Sure. By average, I don't mean any Joe who own a car. I mean amateur mechanics like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    2. Given a typical EFI equipped vehicle today, using Mass Air technology instead of "guesstimate volume", we can happily modify by adding supercharging, exhaust-driven turbocharging, camshaft changes (given NO factory-built variable valve timing), change compression ratio ("shave heads", etc.), bore and/or stroke (under 10% displacement increase, approx., without fuel recalibration), the factory-shipped Engine Control Computer can accommodate these kinds of teen-age-originated hop-ups without missing a beat
    I'm not sure what teen-age hop-ups you're referring to, but major modifications require tuning the computer to match.

    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    3. I can't imagine what sort of modification(s) you included which required computer intervention. Please tell us, what were they, make, year, etc.? joc
    Anything that increases or decreases the timing of the ECU. In my case, turbocharging after an engine rebuild.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,773
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    If you don't mind, I feel compelled to respond:
    1. Could the average person do so before? Assuming they could, those who really could, can be made aware of several important facts: the engine still needs fuel, air, and ignition in order to run. No matter HOW it is delivered, average ability STILL can troubleshoot knowing those basics apply just as they always did.
    Sure. By average, I don't mean any Joe who own a car. I mean amateur mechanics like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    2. Given a typical EFI equipped vehicle today, using Mass Air technology instead of "guesstimate volume", we can happily modify by adding supercharging, exhaust-driven turbocharging, camshaft changes (given NO factory-built variable valve timing), change compression ratio ("shave heads", etc.), bore and/or stroke (under 10% displacement increase, approx., without fuel recalibration), the factory-shipped Engine Control Computer can accommodate these kinds of teen-age-originated hop-ups without missing a beat
    I'm not sure what teen-age hop-ups you're referring to, but major modifications require tuning the computer to match. Flick, I cannot think of hardly any common mod more major than adding a supercharger, or turbocharger. Either of these are easily accommodated by today's ECUs with absolutely no problem at all, no reprogramming needed. This is because the EFI system adapts itself by "knowing" all the values of the variables which affect engine operation. Such mods allow the engine to produce more power at a given engine speed, thus actually increasing engine efficiency, though the cost incurred is "parasitic" in the case of the blower, especially, and less-so for turbocharging.
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post

    3. I can't imagine what sort of modification(s) you included which required computer intervention. Please tell us, what were they, make, year, etc.? joc
    Anything that increases or decreases the timing of the ECU. In my case, turbocharging after an engine rebuild.
    In other words, you added a turbocharger? By "timing", are you referring to ignition? This necessitated reprogramming of the computer? Not knowing the particulars of the application, I cannot state unequivocably that was indeed not needed. However, here's what happens with the system I am most familiar with, Ford EEC-IV or EEC-V level: Let's supercharge my engine. I bolt it on, install the necessary periphals, and turn the key. The ECU "knows" how much air is entering the engine, via the Mass Air Sensor. It's read-only program scans itself over and over, zillions of times per minute, collecting data relating to (1) engine rpm, (2) amount of throttle demand, (3) inlet air temperature and ambient barometric pressure, (4) engine operating temperature (coolant), (5) crankshaft position at any instant of time, including rate of engine speed increase or decrease. Based on the values of these "inputs", the brain consults with a fuel-air mixture look-up table, then takes the info stored there to determine how long the fuel injectors must be turned "on" to achieve that level of power output using the F/A mixture number found. Meanwhile, it is also looking at oxygen sensor-derived data which "fine tunes" the injector time to achieve the desired maximum level of exhaust emissions for the combination of variables measured. All of this action is controlled by the one and only input available to the driver: movement of his/her foot.

    Thus have we covered fuel delivery. The only very important variable remaining is when should that damn brain fire the spark plugs? This it achieves by consulting with the other major look-up table: Spark Advance. That new supercharger causes higher combustion pressures than before, (thus providing more power), but in so doing, in creates more heat than before, and the tendency to "detonate", ping, or "pre-ignite", choice of term is yours. Years back, supercharging generally required retarding the ignition timing since violent pre-ignition "ate" piston domes. Today, that marvel running this show gets an instantaneous input from a "knock sensor", which electronically operates at such unimaginable speed as to cause the ECU to "back off" the ignition advance, or, conversely, in the absence of knock, to increase advance just to the brink of pre-ignition.

    I'm taking the time to describe the operation mainly because of my contention that the level of computer "usage" permitting me to type this bull, is far and away inferior to that which routinely operates our engines nowadays. For me, running and controlling machines are the ultimate level of computer usage.

    Incidentally, by teen-age hop-up interests, I colloquially meant those years-back aspirations of making hot-rods go quicker. jocular
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    . I never took any special care of it either. Never even washed it, and drove it on the salty roads in the winter.
    Finally, Harold and I have something in common.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    . I never took any special care of it either. Never even washed it, and drove it on the salty roads in the winter.
    Finally, Harold and I have something in common.
    YOU MUST BE KIDDING!! MY car is washed EVERY weeks...the brake dust....the sidewalls..the trunk grooves the door jamb....heathens! UTTER HEATHENS
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Key West, Florida, Earth
    Posts
    4,789
    I've always said that if you take care of your car it will take care of you. I have always followed the recomendations of what the manufactures told me to do in their care and maintainance manuels. I do not keep cars for long and usually every 8 to 10 years trade it in on a newer one.


    I'll just say that todays cars are far superior to cars built 50 years ago but you cannot work on them as easily as you could back thenn. Safety innovations and GPS that are now installed in cars which make them, to me, better than they ever have been. ABS, anti swerve , back up warning, back up cameras and on and on. are but a few new ideas that seem to me to help more than ever.
    jocular likes this.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Black Forest
    Posts
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I'd like to see support for the claim that vehicles of today last twice as long...
    Good challenge. I too would like to see some empirical data, preferably a peer-reviewed study based on such data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    My experience has been that cars do last far longer nowadays. That may be because I've had cars in the past that rusted out in a matter of a few years. I have a Honda that's lasted 14 years and still hasn't rusted through anywhere. I never took any special care of it either. Never even washed it, and drove it on the salty roads in the winter.
    If memory serves me correctly, Ziebart rust protection treatments didn't catch on in big U.S. Auto until after the Japanese starting rustproofing theirs. From what I recall, Honda specifically pioneered a multi-coat process in response to people calling their first models released in the U.S. "tin cans" and then after a couple of years, "rusty old cans." They decided if they wanted to succeed, they needed to be proactive.

    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Knowing that today's typical automobiles sell new for at least 10 times what they did 50 years ago...
    According to any of a number of online inflation calculators, $1.00 in 1963 is worth $7.63 in 2013. So, 7.63 times, not "at least 10 times."

    ...are we buying bargains today, or being "scalped"? jocular
    Well:

    1) Cars are a lot more efficient than they were 50 years ago
    If you're talking about the old full-sized cars we used to call "boats," you're correct. By the late 1970s, however, vehicles were on the roads which got better gas mileage than a Prius of today.

    2) Cars are a lot safer than they were 50 years ago
    3) Cars can do more than they did 50 years ago
    How do you figure? In the 70s, we owned a '64 Chevy Suburban. It'd carry mom and pop, the five of us kids, about a thousand pounds of cargo in the back, and pulled our 18' boat. We took it cross-country twice. Had a water pump blow, but that was a three-hour fix, and as it was getting late, we just stayed the night in the town.

    4) Cars really only cost about 30% more than they did 50 years ago counting inflation
    About the same, actually. Check out the 1963 sticker prices and multiply them by the 7.63 inflation factor. Modern cars have a lot of improvements, too. In addition to your #5 below, consider the cloth seats are UV-resistant synthetics that last longer than the vinyl seats of the past. Excellent rust protection is nearly ubiquitous. Most vehicles designed for towing come with a transmission fluid cooler and engine oil cooler, pre-installed. Wiring harness, too.

    5) They're a lot more complex and have GPS maps, satellite radio, heated seats etc
    6) They last longer

    I think they're a pretty good deal.
    I do, too! What jacks the price so much, though, are all the extras. People often pay $3k to $10k more than they'll ever need. That and the price cliff off the lot. You're better off buying a good model used, but well taken care of, that's about two to three years old.

    [QUOTE=jocular;461831]
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Cars could potentially last longer with advancement in materials. Modern cars might last longer because of that or they might live very short lives since they are more mechanically and electronically complicated. The average person can't really work on their own car any more now that computers have taken them over. When I made major changes to my car, I had to take it to a shop with the right computer software to tune the computer to match the mechanics.
    Not true. For the price of a single trip to the shop, you can buy a hand-held diagnostics computer that'll read all the modes and codes from your car's computer. Pep Boys, Advance Auto, NAPA, Harbor Feight Tools - they all carry them. The hand-helds will let you reset warning lights and messages, too.

    As for the rest of the vehicle, I've yet to find anything I can't work on myself, and usually do. I take any heavy lifting (engine and transmission pulls, parts requiring a hydraulic press to remove and install) to the shop simply because they have the equipment and I'm getting too old to contort myself into some of the positions.

    If you properly maintain any car, it can last a long time. Modern cars have so much more that cango wrong, though.
    Huge difference between "can" go wrong and "will" go wrong. It's a simply probability summation problem, and given how often my cars from the 80s needed repairs compared to my 21st-Century truck (none yet), I'm inclined to believe that overall design for each and every part is better, thus, the overall reliability rate is better, too. Still, as you mentioned, preventative maintenance is critical to preventing many problems.

    If you don't mind, I feel compelled to respond:
    1. Could the average person do so before? Assuming they could, those who really could, can be made aware of several important facts: the engine still needs fuel, air, and ignition in order to run. No matter HOW it is delivered, average ability STILL can troubleshoot knowing those basics apply just as they always did.
    2. Given a typical EFI equipped vehicle today, using Mass Air technology instead of "guesstimate volume", we can happily modify by adding supercharging, exhaust-driven turbocharging, camshaft changes (given NO factory-built variable valve timing), change compression ratio ("shave heads", etc.), bore and/or stroke (under 10% displacement increase, approx., without fuel recalibration), the factory-shipped Engine Control Computer can accommodate these kinds of teen-age-originated hop-ups without missing a beat
    When I grew up, most of the guys in the neighborhood worked on cars. You couldn't walk a block without seeing someone elbows deep under their hood or legs sticking out from beneath.

    These days, not so much. Thus, I seriously doubt the average person is still capable of working on their own vehicles.

    3. I can't imagine what sort of modification(s) you included which required computer intervention. Please tell us, what were they, make, year, etc.? joc
    I think he's referring to the dreaded computer-generated "check X" warnings. It used to be descriptive, but these days they all say "check engine" even if it's some other system. Again, a hand-held from the auto supply store does wonders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Rings/bearings/bushings wear out; electronics, in general, do not.
    Oh, yes they do.

    I spent a full day repairing the ABS control unit three months ago, where the solder joints had given out. 7 or so months before that, I had to re-solder the ECM connections.

    And two days ago, the ABS light came back on, showing more solder joints have recently given out...
    Sounds like poor strain relief.

    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    And then, we have "wave-soldering"! joc
    Wave soldering is used to solder the components onto circuit boards. It's not used to solder the leads from various wires snaking into the box containing the circuit board. With proper strain relief, it's not a problem. Without it, the solder joints will fatigue, and break.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I have always followed the recomendations of what the manufactures told me to do in their care and maintainance manuels.
    I agree. Some of that is designed to actually maintain the vehicles properly, thus increasing the likelihood you will enjoy them longer. The other part is designed to help provide a steady income to the dealers who sold them. If it's something you can easily do yourself, go for it. If it's not, it's still a very good idea to follow the maintenance schedule. Just budget ahead.
    Neverfly likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Cars are a tremendous bargain compared to decades ago--much longer lasting, more fuel efficient for their size, more powerful for their engine size, and safer.

    Seldom wash my vehicles except for the glass and when they've been around salt, like driving a beach.
    --

    Hmm. just for fun my list of vehicles my wife and I had over the years.

    1975 Gremlin (classic green)
    1981(I think) Ford Festiva
    1983 VW rabbit (sweet car but had a hard to diagnose electrical problems in the wiring harness common in those years).
    1986 Mercury Cougar (worst vehicle we ever owned--a mechanical nightmare--I cheered when they were phased out)
    1991 Ford Ranger pickup (my favorite--wife and I had every good time you can imagine in that truck--I'm talking about camping..mostly...hehe)
    1995 Mercury Voyager van-our minivan days that took us all over Europe when I wasn't deployed to that nasty bit stuff in SE Europe.
    2001 Chevy S10 pickup, which I still drive -- carried to the most adventures from Georgia, Kansas, Texas, Maryland, Maine, Wisconsin and of course Washington state where I live now.
    2008 Honda Fit--now passed to our boy
    2013 Honda Fit
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,773
    Lynx, you have pretty much run the gamut of selection. Am surprised somewhat by the bad experience with the '86 Cougar. Far as I know, the earlier models were pretty much a take-off on the same "platform" as T-Bird and Mustang, neither of which suffered particularly in the reliability area. Right around '86, but I cannot be perfectly certain of the year, Ford entered the mysterious arena of electronic fuel injection.

    Speaking of which, my then-previous design experience, involving electro-mechanical solenoids and such, suggested, in my mind, at any rate, that solenoid-operated fuel injectors would prove to be a high maintenance item, due to the enormously high number of operational cycles they must endure. Turns out, I was wrong. The damn little things seem almost uncannily reliable and long-lived. joc
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Moderator Moderator Janus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,070
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Cars are a tremendous bargain compared to decades ago--much longer lasting, more fuel efficient for their size, more powerful for their engine size, and safer.

    Seldom wash my vehicles except for the glass and when they've been around salt, like driving a beach.
    --

    Hmm. just for fun my list of vehicles my wife and I had over the years.

    1975 Gremlin (classic green)
    1981(I think) Ford Festiva
    1983 VW rabbit (sweet car but had a hard to diagnose electrical problems in the wiring harness common in those years).
    1986 Mercury Cougar (worst vehicle we ever owned--a mechanical nightmare--I cheered when they were phased out)
    1991 Ford Ranger pickup (my favorite--wife and I had every good time you can imagine in that truck--I'm talking about camping..mostly...hehe)
    1995 Mercury Voyager van-our minivan days that took us all over Europe when I wasn't deployed to that nasty bit stuff in SE Europe.
    2001 Chevy S10 pickup, which I still drive -- carried to the most adventures from Georgia, Kansas, Texas, Maryland, Maine, Wisconsin and of course Washington state where I live now.
    2008 Honda Fit--now passed to our boy
    2013 Honda Fit

    My list:
    1965 Ford Galaxie 500
    1970 Ford Torino
    1971 Chevy Camaro (It had a lowered suspension and cornered like it was glued to the road.)
    1970 AMC Ambassador(The Camaro had left me high and dry, and I needed to get something quickly and within my budget)
    1978 Honda Civic (wife brought into the marriage)
    1984 Honda CRX (another car that handled like a dream, and got 50 mpg!)
    1980 Toyota Corolla (second car, needed after daughter was born.)
    1982 Subaru Wagon (replacement for the CRX, Something that could carry us and all our camping gear. Took us to Yosemite NP, Yellowstone NP, The Black hills, Glacier NP, and the Redwoods, among other places. )
    1991 Honda Civic. ( We still own this car, 270,000+ miles on the odometer. I drive it now only when I absolutely need to. It has its problems: Cracked windshield, blower fan doesn't work, heater core clogged, one of the CV joints is clicking, and I have to brace the driver's seat from behind to keep it from leaning too far back. Nothing that can't be fixed, but I'm reluctant to put any money into it, especially since we really don't need a second car anymore.)
    2004 Toyota Matrix XRS
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


    Edit/Delete Message
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    475
    I drive a right hand drive 1976 Marine Blue Land Rover Series III 88" Pickup on the streets of Flanders, and it still runs just fine.
    It has so little options and features that there's hardly anything there to break down ,),),
    except the drivetrain was never very trustworthy in these cars, and they munch oil.
    In the fields unbeatable though.

    If you really love a car , you'll keep it running for ever.
    Neverfly and jocular like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Key West, Florida, Earth
    Posts
    4,789
    Here are a few cars that I've owned. Not all of these pictures are of my cars but only ones that are representative of them. I do not have many pictures of my cars that I've kept.










    jocular and babe like this.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,810
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    . I never took any special care of it either. Never even washed it, and drove it on the salty roads in the winter.
    Finally, Harold and I have something in common.
    YOU MUST BE KIDDING!! MY car is washed EVERY weeks...the brake dust....the sidewalls..the trunk grooves the door jamb....heathens! UTTER HEATHENS
    It gets rained on.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,773
    Cosmic! Is that a '63 Fairlane Thunderbolt? 427 Wedge engine/ 4-speed, one of the winningest Super Stocks available then? (drool!). joc
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I've always said that if you take care of your car it will take care of you. I have always followed the recomendations of what the manufactures told me to do in their care and maintainance manuels. I do not keep cars for long and usually every 8 to 10 years trade it in on a newer one.


    I'll just say that todays cars are far superior to cars built 50 years ago but you cannot work on them as easily as you could back thenn. Safety innovations and GPS that are now installed in cars which make them, to me, better than they ever have been. ABS, anti swerve , back up warning, back up cameras and on and on. are but a few new ideas that seem to me to help more than ever.
    I agree. I am the same way. My car is 10 years old, looks brand new....runs like a charm....my other car (same as this one in Hawai'i,) looks brand new....pain in the butt, but my 1/2 ton pickup same thing. I take care of my cars. They take care of me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    . I never took any special care of it either. Never even washed it, and drove it on the salty roads in the winter.
    Finally, Harold and I have something in common.
    YOU MUST BE KIDDING!! MY car is washed EVERY weeks...the brake dust....the sidewalls..the trunk grooves the door jamb....heathens! UTTER HEATHENS
    It gets rained on.
    SO DO MINE!! *L* when I lived full time in Humboldt County! *L* sometimes we'd have 62 plus inches of rain a year.....I'd wash, it rained. *L* But I still washed.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    Cosmic awesome cars!!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Resident of Big Island of Hawai'i since 2003, and in Bayside, Ca. since 1981, Humboldt since 1977
    Posts
    12,445
    I have had....hmmmm

    1972 Datsun 510 (my first owned car)
    1972 Karmann Ghia (orange) St. Bernard in the back...tail out one window, head out the other....
    1977 Jeep Cherokee .....fun times in that thing, brought babies home from the hospital in it....berry picking, hunting, camping
    1985 Chevy Cavalier station wagon (well hit a black cow in that one on Halloween night dressed as a harlequin)
    1988 Cadillac.....HATED that car....but my MIL wanted a new one so I inherited it when husband bought it from his father
    1985 914S FUN FUN FUN
    1981 928P My favorite car ever....restored just before I got smashed
    1983 928P Tried to replace the 1981...but couldn't drive a stick anymore
    2001 Honda Prelude......fun car...shipped it to Hawai'i
    2004 350Z have two of them....white one home in Hawai'i and a black one (4th of assembly line) in Calif....convertible...you can't live in HI and drive a sedan!
    2005 Nissan Titan 4 door pickup....also my Hawai'i car....4WD for off roading, if we want to, and great when the kids come over with golf clubs and luggage....well when anyone comes over with luggage...
    Next car? Will be Hawai'i...never selling my 350Z that is on the Mainland.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. Diet, size and longevity.
    By ox in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: September 2nd, 2012, 03:20 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: October 8th, 2009, 04:57 AM
  3. Longevity, mitochondria implantation?
    By Question in forum Biology
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: March 9th, 2006, 01:55 AM
  4. Vehicular Power (NOT PROPULSION!!!) via a Magnetic Source
    By mhibiki in forum Personal Theories & Alternative Ideas
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: March 1st, 2006, 08:50 PM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •