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Thread: Magnetic Perpetual Motion or perpetual motion by using magnets

  1. #1 Magnetic Perpetual Motion or perpetual motion by using magnets 
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    Why when there is so much evidence to the contrary, does science keep on denying the possibility or existence of perpetual motion by use of magnets. I'm no scientist nor any great academic but even I can see, but not explain the fact that magnetism is a power that we neither understand and certainly don't exploit to anywhere near it's full potential.

    When 'Tesler' first published his findings, and concluded that not only was it possible but doable. However when his sponsor and benefactor, who had a considerable interest in the electric wiring industry got wind of 'Tesler's' intention he withdrew his funding and left 'Tesler' destitute and broken.
    Ever since those far gone days any subsequent attempts to develop any such system has either been sabotaged or rubished, not to mention the fact that anybody working on such schemes has met with some mysterious accident or simply disappeared.
    Which all gives weight to the argument that there is obviously something worth developing.


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    Forum Senior pineapples's Avatar
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    I think Iíd enjoyed attempting to create a Magnetic Perpetual Motion device just for the fun of it, but mostly to understand the futility of such a device, and magnets a little better. I think it should be part of secondary school Physics criteria under fun science!

    Basically you canít get something from nothing, is my understanding of it. Suspending a concrete brick an top of another brick is releasing no more energy than resting a magnet on top of another magnet. Pressing your hand down on both bricks requires your energy, as does pressing down on two magnets. I'm no scientist nor any great academic either, so look forward to hearing a better explanation!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball View Post
    [FONT=book antiqua]Why when there is so much evidence to the contrary
    Please provide a reference to this evidence.

    does science keep on denying the possibility or existence of perpetual motion by use of magnets.
    Conservation of energy - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I'm no scientist nor any great academic but even I can see, but not explain the fact that magnetism is a power that we neither understand and certainly don't exploit to anywhere near it's full potential.
    Magnetism is extremely well understood. So I'm not sure why you claim it isn't.

    When 'Tesler' ...
    TESLA

    first published his findings, and concluded that not only was it possible but doable.
    Evidence required.

    Ever since those far gone days any subsequent attempts to develop any such system has either been sabotaged or rubished, not to mention the fact that anybody working on such schemes has met with some mysterious accident or simply disappeared.
    Evidence required.

    No one who claims to have developed a perpetual motion machine has demonstrated one. There are dozens of sad websites and yootube videos created by these nutters. I wish they would disappear.

    There is a good reason they are unsuccessful (as anyone with a basic grasp of science knows): it is impossible.

    Which all gives weight to the argument that there is obviously something worth developing.
    Right. The fact they have failed to do the impossible, proves we should keep trying. Brilliant.

    Go ahead then. I'm sure any of the crooks out there will sell you plans for a "free energy" machine. Build one and see how well it works. Then try asking for your money back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball View Post
    Why when there is so much evidence to the contrary, does science keep on denying the possibility or existence of perpetual motion by use of magnets.


    There is no evidence to the contrary - just some people who don't understand what they are seeing (and post their conclusions on websites, forums and Youtube.)

    I'm no scientist nor any great academic but even I can see, but not explain the fact that magnetism is a power that we neither understand and certainly don't exploit to anywhere near it's full potential.
    I am designing a wireless power transfer system that uses magnetic fields. We have electric vehicles, maglev trains, cheap and efficient power supplies, a national power grid and nuclear magnetic resonance imaging machines. I'd say we exploit it pretty well.

    When 'Tesler' first published his findings, and concluded that not only was it possible but doable. However when his sponsor and benefactor, who had a considerable interest in the electric wiring industry got wind of 'Tesler's' intention he withdrew his funding and left 'Tesler' destitute and broken.
    Do you mean Tesla? No, he never concluded perpetual motion was possible. He thought he found an exception to the Second Law of Themodynamics. Turns out he was wrong.

    Ever since those far gone days any subsequent attempts to develop any such system has either been sabotaged or rubished, not to mention the fact that anybody working on such schemes has met with some mysterious accident or simply disappeared.
    Paranoid nonsense. The Orbo system by Steorn has been on the market since 2006. No one has sabotaged or "rubished' them, No one has met with mysterious accidents or disappeared. Their technology doesn't work, of course, but you are free to send them money and they will allow you access to the "Steorn Knowledge Development Base." If you have some extra money and want to see why such schemes don't work, I believe they take credit cards.


    Which all gives weight to the argument that there is obviously something worth developing.
    No, it doesn't.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball View Post
    Why when there is so much evidence to the contrary, does science keep on denying the possibility or existence of perpetual motion by use of magnets.


    You need to take a look at Noether's (first) theorem. The time-invariance of physical laws directly implies energy conservation. We've never seen a violation of time invariance in any experiment. Ever.
    Please present the "evidence to the contrary" that you boldly declare exists. Since there is "much" of it, you shouldn't have any difficulty rising to the challenge. However, Youtube vids, popsci articles, hearsay, etc. do not count as evidence.

    I'm no scientist nor any great academic
    Then why do you feel qualified to make assertions about science? One wonders if you go about telling neurosurgeons how to remove brain tumours ("just use a spatula"), or footballers how to score more points ("Beckham, just wave a chicken over your head three times").

    but even I can see, but not explain the fact that magnetism is a power that we neither understand and certainly don't exploit to anywhere near it's full potential.
    Clearly, that is a conclusion based on an embarrassing level of ignorance, Mr. non-scientist/non-academic.

    When 'Tesler'
    Would that be Michael Tesler, the Brown University professor of political science?

    first published his findings, and concluded that not only was it possible but doable. However when his sponsor and benefactor, who had a considerable interest in the electric wiring industry got wind of 'Tesler's' intention he withdrew his funding and left 'Tesler' destitute and broken.
    Oh. I see. You meant Tesla, as in Nikola Tesla. And no, nothing you wrote above is correct. It reads like a horribly mangled third-hand account cribbed from Margaret Cheney's execrable "biography" of Tesla. FYI, Tesla planned to use the ionosphere to replace wiring. He did not have any idea how to make that work. JP Morgan properly declined to continue funding Tesla.

    Ever since those far gone days any subsequent attempts to develop any such system has either been sabotaged or rubished,
    Not sabotaged, but rubbished, yes, because of impracticality or other fundamental lack.

    not to mention the fact that anybody working on such schemes has met with some mysterious accident or simply disappeared.Which all gives weight to the argument that there is obviously something worth developing.


    Evidence, please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball View Post
    When 'Tesler' first published his findings, and concluded that not only was it possible but doable.
    "Tesler" concluded a number of things: unfortunately a significant portion of them were batshit crazy and unworkable.
    IMO Tesla's best-ever decision was to look like David Bowie and get a bit part in The Prestige.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball View Post
    Why when there is so much evidence to the contrary, does science keep on denying the possibility or existence of perpetual motion by use of magnets. I'm no scientist nor any great academic but even I can see, but not explain the fact that magnetism is a power that we neither understand and certainly don't exploit to anywhere near it's full potential.

    When 'Tesler' first published his findings, and concluded that not only was it possible but doable. However when his sponsor and benefactor, who had a considerable interest in the electric wiring industry got wind of 'Tesler's' intention he withdrew his funding and left 'Tesler' destitute and broken.
    Ever since those far gone days any subsequent attempts to develop any such system has either been sabotaged or rubished, not to mention the fact that anybody working on such schemes has met with some mysterious accident or simply disappeared.
    Which all gives weight to the argument that there is obviously something worth developing.
    Or maybe they meet with mysterious accidents/simply disapear because they're crazy -or- because they're confidence artists that make "investments" disappear along with them.

    Have you seen those videos where people make little homemade generators out of magnets? Those, allegedly, are perpetual energy machines. The force from a single magnet is what repels the generator magnets, which then makes the generator spin. That is well and simple, and we all understand the idea... But the force that spins the generator is the magnet trying to push itself out of the conflicting fields, therefore, whatever the force of the magnet is, a larger force needs to be exerted on that magnet in order for it to keep spinning the generator. So if you don't have a larger force of energy holding that magnet in place it will eventually force itself out of the other magnets' fields, and the generator will stop spinning.
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    magnetism is a power that we neither understand and certainly don't exploit to anywhere near it's full potential
    This is plainly and simply wrong. Electromagnetism is extremely well understood, both macroscopically ( Maxwell's equations ), and microscopically ( quantum electrodynamics ). But even if it wasn't, the existence of perpetual motion is ruled out by much more general principles which apply to all physical systems, regardless of their exact make-up ( magnetic, mechanical, chemical etc etc ). The key concept here is Noether's theorem, which basically tells us that symmetries give rise to conserved currents; in the particular scenario at hand, time translation symmetry gives rise to a conserved stress-energy-momentum tensor. This means that energy-momentum is never created or destroyed, so perpetual motion is impossible in the general case, regardless of what particular form that energy takes.

    Why when there is so much evidence to the contrary
    There is no evidence whatsoever to the contrary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    magnetism is a power that we neither understand and certainly don't exploit to anywhere near it's full potential
    This is plainly and simply wrong. Electromagnetism is extremely well understood, both macroscopically ( Maxwell's equations ), and microscopically ( quantum electrodynamics ). But even if it wasn't, the existence of perpetual motion is ruled out by much more general principles which apply to all physical systems, regardless of their exact make-up ( magnetic, mechanical, chemical etc etc ). The key concept here is Noether's theorem, which basically tells us that symmetries give rise to conserved currents; in the particular scenario at hand, time translation symmetry gives rise to a conserved stress-energy-momentum tensor. This means that energy-momentum is never created or destroyed, so perpetual motion is impossible in the general case, regardless of what particular form that energy takes.

    Why when there is so much evidence to the contrary
    There is no evidence whatsoever to the contrary.

    Maybe you should make a sticky thread about the impossibility of making free-energy devices?
    Considering your vast amount of knowledge of physics and the fact that you have already made some sticky threads, I think you would do a great job.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Maybe you should make a sticky thread about the impossibility of making free-energy devices?
    Considering your vast amount of knowledge of physics and the fact that you have already made some sticky threads, I think you would do a great job.
    Thank you
    I appreciate your confidence in my abilities, but this does not require a sticky. The information as to why such machines can't work is only a Google search away, and comes in all forms from the most technical to the most pop-sci-like version.

    The basic argument is very simple indeed - so long as the laws of physics are invariant over time ( i.e. the same laws apply at all times in the history of the universe ), free energy and perpetual motion is a physical impossibility; this is a direct result of Noether's theorem. Observational evidence tells us that those laws have been substantially similar or the exact same over the past 14.7 billion years, so there is no reason to suspect that we will ever have a working free energy device; even if we did, the best it would achieve is a miniscule amount of energy surplus over the space of billions of years, making it worthless for any practical application. The whole notion is just completely ludicrous from the outset, which why it just makes me laugh It's been one of the staples on science forums in general, along with anti-relativity and aether.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post

    The basic argument is very simple indeed - so long as the laws of physics are invariant over time ( i.e. the same laws apply at all times in the history of the universe ), free energy and perpetual motion is a physical impossibility; this is a direct result of Noether's theorem.
    I accept perpetual motion is a fallacy. It reminds me of olden day alchemists trying to create gold. Well except of course, creating gold is possible. They just needed their hands on a super nova.

    But here’s a question, if there’s no such thing as free energy, then where did all the energy come from in the first place, within the universe?

    “so long as the laws of physics are invariant over time” – Does the fact that we have energy suggest that the laws are variant (Changing)?
    Last edited by pineapples; September 10th, 2013 at 09:09 AM. Reason: For getting my Variants mixed up with my Invariants !
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    I deny the existence of a perpetual motion machine, but the evidence for a perpetual ignorance machine is strong. What else could be creating all these people?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    But here’s a question, if there’s no such thing as free energy, then where did all the energy come from in the first place, within the universe?
    We don't know. Maybe it was always there. Maybe it was created at some point.

    The conservation law is a local thing. Energy is observer or frame-of-reference dependent so it is not easy, and maybe not possible, to define energy conservation on a universal scale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    But hereís a question, if thereís no such thing as free energy, then where did all the energy come from in the first place, within the universe?
    Within the universe it was always there, right from the time of the Big Bang. That's the point.

    Does the fact that we have energy suggest that the laws are not variant?
    No, the invariance is an observational finding. Due to the finiteness of the speed of light, looking out far away is tantamount to looking into the past; modern day astronomy is able to observe objects that are very far out, and hence billions of years in the past, yet they appear to behave the same way as objects close by do. There is nothing to suggest that the laws of physics worked differently in the past, or that they will work differently in the future. All observational evidence is consistent with the notion that physical laws are invariant over time. Through Noether's theorem that translates to the fact that energy is never created nor destroyed, though on a cosmological scale it is rather more difficult to define the notion of "energy", as Strange has rightly pointed out. In any case, a perpetual motion machine would be a small-scale, local type of system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I deny the existence of a perpetual motion machine, but the evidence for a perpetual ignorance machine is strong. What else could be creating all these people?
    I think it's magnetism. There is something about magnetism - perhaps the impression of spooky-action-at-a-distance, that makes it irresistible to cranks and conmen. Whether it's perpetual motion machines, quack fuel efficiency devices for your car, or anti-rheumatism bracelets, you'll find magnets in there somewhere, as often as not. Tesla, too, seems to attract cranks. I've seen quite a bit of alternative Serbian physics on various forums, in his memory.
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    Thanks for that Markus Hanke and Strange! As always, concise and to the point!
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    I came up with an electric motor driving a generator, driving the same electric motor with permanent magnet levitated bearings to reduce friction early in high school (8th grade or something). Soon realised it would never work and that no matter how complex you try to make it, it would always reduce to the same thing. I am always bemused when adults come up with the same nonsense and can't be convinced of it's futility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I came up with an electric motor driving a generator, driving the same electric motor with permanent magnet levitated bearings to reduce friction early in high school (8th grade or something). Soon realised it would never work and that no matter how complex you try to make it, it would always reduce to the same thing. I am always bemused when adults come up with the same nonsense and can't be convinced of it's futility.
    So did I. Perhaps we all do at that age. The idea of something for nothing is the stuff of childhood dreams.

    But, as St Paul says, when I became a man I put away childish things. Or rather, when I learnt the principle of conservation of energy, when I was 13 or 14.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I came up with an electric motor driving a generator, driving the same electric motor with permanent magnet levitated bearings to reduce friction early in high school (8th grade or something).
    I did the same thing except I used an AC generator with a rectifier and a DC motor driving it. The AC motor allowed me to use a transformer to boost the voltage, so the motor got more power than the generator produced. The transformer, I figured, was the secret missing ingredient that everyone else had overlooked.

    I think I still have that setup around somewhere. I could make a Youtube video and ask for millions for my "free energy machine."
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I came up with an electric motor driving a generator, driving the same electric motor with permanent magnet levitated bearings to reduce friction early in high school (8th grade or something).
    I did the same thing except I used an AC generator with a rectifier and a DC motor driving it. The AC motor allowed me to use a transformer to boost the voltage, so the motor got more power than the generator produced. The transformer, I figured, was the secret missing ingredient that everyone else had overlooked.

    I think I still have that setup around somewhere. I could make a Youtube video and ask for millions for my "free energy machine."
    Yes, you could post it here: Free Energy Forum - All Discussions

    Plenty of stuff here about magnets, Tesla and the rest. Might suit our friend Ball, actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Yes, you could post it here: Free Energy Forum - All Discussions

    Plenty of stuff here about magnets, Tesla and the rest. Might suit our friend Ball, actually.
    It could be a "honey trap" so that They can disappear you if you get too close to The Secret.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Yes, you could post it here: Free Energy Forum - All Discussions

    Plenty of stuff here about magnets, Tesla and the rest. Might suit our friend Ball, actually.
    It could be a "honey trap" so that They can disappear you if you get too close to The Secret.

    Shhh! The Illuminati could be listening in! If they think that you are on to them, they could {aargh....gurgle....}
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Yes, you could post it here: Free Energy Forum - All Discussions

    Plenty of stuff here about magnets, Tesla and the rest. Might suit our friend Ball, actually.
    It could be a "honey trap" so that They can disappear you if you get too close to The Secret.

    Shhh! The Illuminati could be listening in! If they think that you are on to them, they could {aargh....gurgle....}

    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Maybe you should make a sticky thread about the impossibility of making free-energy devices?
    Considering your vast amount of knowledge of physics and the fact that you have already made some sticky threads, I think you would do a great job.
    Thank you
    I appreciate your confidence in my abilities, but this does not require a sticky. The information as to why such machines can't work is only a Google search away, and comes in all forms from the most technical to the most pop-sci-like version.

    The basic argument is very simple indeed - so long as the laws of physics are invariant over time ( i.e. the same laws apply at all times in the history of the universe ), free energy and perpetual motion is a physical impossibility; this is a direct result of Noether's theorem. Observational evidence tells us that those laws have been substantially similar or the exact same over the past 14.7 billion years, so there is no reason to suspect that we will ever have a working free energy device; even if we did, the best it would achieve is a miniscule amount of energy surplus over the space of billions of years, making it worthless for any practical application. The whole notion is just completely ludicrous from the outset, which why it just makes me laugh It's been one of the staples on science forums in general, along with anti-relativity and aether.
    But you're only talking about one type of perpetual motion device: those that violate the conservation of energy. The more interesting type violates the second law of thermodynamics. I like the idea of a sticky thread where people put forward designs of perpetual motion device for other people to analyse precisely why they fail. The exercise can be quite instructive. Indeed, I have learned one somewhat counterintuitive principle through considering a particular perpetual motion device.
    There are no paradoxes in relativity, just people's misunderstandings of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    I think we should just have a "Crank" sub-forum for all the perpetual motion/aether theory/anti-relativity/my new theory of everything/bigfoot/woo nonsense we get here. It should not be accessible to non-members (like the trash) and only mods can post (to give explanations for why the post has been put there) or send other peoples posts to it. It could be like a Victorian lunatic asylum for members to wander around, have a chuckle, shake their heads at the idiocy and get back to a sensible discussion.

    We should call it the /dev/null sub-forum.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

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    Quote Originally Posted by KJW View Post
    But you're only talking about one type of perpetual motion device: those that violate the conservation of energy.
    True, because that seems to be the type the OP was suggesting.
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    It's just like having sex....you can't get more out than you put in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    It's just like having sex....you can't get more out than you put in.
    Er, a baby weighs more than a teaspoon of sperm.

    In this case though, all you get is a big sack of poop.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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  31. #30  
    exchemist
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    It's just like having sex....you can't get more out than you put in.
    Er, well, that's a singularly inapt metaphor, as any father could tell you.
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  32. #31  
    exchemist
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    It's just like having sex....you can't get more out than you put in.
    Er, a baby weighs more than a teaspoon of sperm.

    In this case though, all you get is a big sack of poop.
    Snap!
    KALSTER likes this.
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