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Thread: Erroneous scientific studies: Religious people are less intelligent than atheists

  1. #1 Erroneous scientific studies: Religious people are less intelligent than atheists 
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    In America Rochester's university has been made scientific studies and analysis led by Professor Miron Zuckerman, which claims that religious people are less intelligent than non-believers. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Review published a summary for this scientific study. When I researched this study, so on my mind arose many thoughts that prove this scientific study as the provocation of atheism in which they show their contempt to the certain group of the people. On my writing, I also bring out some thoughts about the article of Knoxnews.

    The whole article is in my site: Religious people are less intelligent than atheists


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  3. #2  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    I assume you haven't read the paper, then?

    For reference, it can be found here: The Relation Between Intelligence and Religiosity

    Your linked article makes a lot of unsupported claims. For example
    Among the atheists is a lot of divorces, plenty of sinful sexual affairs, alcoholism, lust of money, game addiction, envy, bitterness and so on.
    Where is the data to show that the rates of these things are greater among atheists than others? You cite no sources for anyb of your "facts" as such your argument is very weak.

    It looks like you have attempted to counter a careful scientific study with an emotional rant. I hope it made you feel better.


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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Oh dear. You're very smart are you?
    For one thing you've misconstrued the premise of the study - it's not that atheists tend to be more intelligent than religious people per se, but that the more intelligent the person the likelier they are to be atheist.
    It's a subtle, but significant difference.
    Also your linked web page is full of errors - I particularly "liked" these:
    because atheism based on believing

    No it's not.
    Atheists believe information that is against the word God

    How can atheists believe information that is "against the word of god" when it has not been shown that A) god actually exists and B) whatever is attributed to him actually came from him?

    In short your claims (and "analysis") are worthless, lacking in rigour and, in places, misleading.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Moderator Moderator Cogito Ergo Sum's Avatar
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    From your website:
    "Atheists believe information that is against the word God, and they don't believe on God, but believe that God doesn't exist."

    That statement does not make sense. What is "information that is against the word God"?

    "Many atheists believe that evolution theory has proven scientifically, but the fact is that no one can't prove indisputably that evolution theory is true."

    Scientific theories can never be proven. Explanations are constantly updated in the face of new evidence.

    "The foundation of atheism is based on hypothesis and estimations, and not based on indisputable fact."

    Which hypotheses? Which estimations?

    "For this reason, atheism is a belief as religion, in which an atheist chose after he has chosen atheism to be a better alternative to him whereto he believes. Actually, atheism is a religion, in which some of them believe to evolution theory, and some believe another information."

    "Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
    ~ Don Hirschberg

    "In fact, the study led by Zuckermanin was contradictory, ironic and unreliable as purpose to promote atheism. The study failed and exposed stupidity of researchers. I didn't use the stupidity word in the meaning that I want slander them, but in the meaning that their study failed and was unsuccessful."

    Where did their methodology fail? Were their conclusions biased? Was the data altered? Where did the contradictions arise?

    "Atheist, religious people or the disciple of the Lord Jesus can be naturally clever, but the real wisdom comes only from God of the Bible."

    Circular reasoning.

    "Belief of atheism (not all but many believe) based on that the universe; the earth and polymorphic life have been borne by accident and self-guided without the help of intelligent mind (God). If you are honest so you can understand that 3 billions letter code pairs (DNA) couldn't be borne by accident or self-guided. 3 billions letter code pairs of DNA contain all the information that how a man must be built and how his body organs work. The information of DNA proves that a man, and the life on the earth has not been borne by accident or self-guided, but that super intelligent Almighty God of the Bible has planned and created a man."


    1. Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief in the existence of a deity.
    2. Scientists (religious or non-religious) from various academic fields accept (with a reasonable doubt) that abiogenesis has occured.
    3. Human genomes do not pop into existence. That is a distorted representation of abiogenesis.
    4. The 3.2 billion bp human genome contains superfluous parts such as retroposons, transposons, pseudogenes, retroviruses, ...
      Most of our genome is, in member Zwirko's words: junk.
    5. Intelligent Design has been disproven by science and multiple times in court in the U.S.


    "The foundation of atheism is based on the very weak and nonexistent basis. In the fact, the "wisdom" of atheism proves that it is based on belief system and information that can't be true. The "wisdom" of atheism represents pride that stands on the foundation, which has been built on the basis of lies."

    Which wisdom? Which beliefs? Which lies?

    "Believing to God of the Bible by the Lord Jesus is the gift of God that lacked from atheist, and therefore, he can't understand the truth of the Bible and can't see the real wisdom."

    And the other 4.8 billion non-Christians are also devoid of this understanding, I suppose?


    If one combines fallacious reasoning, faulty definitions, a misunderstanding of the theory of evolution and abiogenesis, a misrepresentation of atheism and a complete lack of common sense concerning the content of the Bible, then one ends up with quotes like these.
    Last edited by Cogito Ergo Sum; May 12th, 2014 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Spelling errors.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    One of this kind prove is exceptional intelligence of Jewish nation.

    I lived in Israel for 15 years - they are no different to anyone else. Some stupid, some clever and some in between.....just like the rest of the world.
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    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    An unusual case, it appears the author is trying to dispel the claim that says religious people are less intelligent than atheists by using an unintelligent, theistic tirade that he/she endorses wholeheartedly.
    KALSTER, John Galt and Strange like this.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    An unusual case, it appears the author is trying to dispel the claim that says religious people are less intelligent than atheists by using an unintelligent, theistic tirade that he/she endorses wholeheartedly.
    You know, I was really trying to avoid pointing that out ...
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    The paper is a shocker.

    It's ripped to pieces here. By. An. Atheist.

    Y’all can stop patting yourselves on the back now » Pharyngula
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  10. #9  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The paper is a shocker.

    It's ripped to pieces here. By. An. Atheist.

    Y’all can stop patting yourselves on the back now » Pharyngula
    Now, that is an intelligent analysis.
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    To state that ANY individual is LESS intelligent due to their spiritual path is kind of ridiculous, in my opinion.


    Lucy put it quite succinctly!
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    American Knoxnews media has published an article reporting that the godless people commit less crime, have longer marriages and are more highly educated than almost any other group in America.

    Knoxnews media reported that according to Federal Bureau of Prisons' data, the number of responding persons in prison acknowledging they were Catholic was 39 percent; Protestant, 35 percent; Muslim, 7 percent; Jewish, 2 percent; and godless, 0.2 percent (20 percent did not respond).

    Knoxnews media reported that since the number of godless is estimated to be 10 percent of the general population, all things being equal, you would expect their prison population to be 10 percent. Knoxnews media continues reporting that fundamentalist Christians have the highest divorce rate, followed by Jews and Baptists.
    Konxnews media reports that a review of worldwide studies found that criminality and religion go hand in hand, because countries with the most religious people have the highest crime rates, highest sexually transmitted diseases and the highest teen pregnancy rates.

    The article of Knoxnews media is misleading and distorted the things very badly. I bring out by few matters that how the article was erroneous and misleading. I'm a Finnish and live in Finland. Here in Finland the majority of the populations are Lutherans. Majority of Finnish Lutherans doesn't believe on God of the Bible. According to Finnish prison and criminal data, the majority of prisoners are Lutherans. Majority from the Finnish Lutherans don't believe on God or the Bible. It means that large majority Lutherans that are recorded in prison, and criminal data are godless people. In the light of this fact and study here in Finland godless people are doing superior numbers' crimes in Finland.

    According to Finnish Lutheran Church's research center about 14-24 years Finnish people only 15 percent believed God of Christianity (number is from year 2011). In the year, 2011 from all Finnish young people and adults 27 percent said that they believed in God of Christianity. According to revised demographics, 77,2 people in Finland belonged to Lutheran Church (31.12.2011).

    Based on preceding numbers the biggest part from the members of Finnish Lutheran Church doesn't believe God of the Bible. This means that they are godless people and members of religious institution. Almost 80 percent from Finnish citizens belongs to Lutheran Church, and about 60 percent of them don't believe God of the Bible. Lutheran Church's members about 10 percent is religious people who believe in God, but they don't live according to the teaching of God ( they are not the disciples of the Lord Jesus). From the Finnish Lutheran Church's members, about 10 percent are on living faith to the Lord Jesus.

    Because almost 80 percent from Finnish citizens are members of the Lutheran Church, and about 10 percent of them have the living faith on the Lord Jesus, so it means that the biggest part of Finnish people who are recorded in prison, and criminal data are members of Lutheran Church. They are godless people and members of religious institution. This means that they are negative towards God and believing on the Lord Jesus. Actually, they are godless people who are in prison and criminal statistics as members of religious institution. After all the truth is that godless people make the most crimes in Finland.

    It is into question the same matter in America, in which the majority of Roman Catholic Church and Protestant churches' members don't believe in the Bible, but are living in sins against the will of God. In this light, the majority of America's criminal data church members are godless people. According to this fact, the article of Knoxnews distorted the truth and the real fact is that also in America godless people commit the most crimes.

    In America is plenty of unhealthy and non-biblical Christian sects and cults, in which happens a lot of sexual sins, for example, Catholicism and certain groups, which live against the teaching of the Bible, although they claim that believe in the Bible. For example, about non-biblical sect and cult in America is Branch Davidians religious sect in which the leader David Koreshi abused sexually women of the sect. According to the teaching of the Bible Branch Davidians sect lived in sexual sins and other sins, and this sect has nothing to do with health and genuine Biblical faith.

    Atheists always bring out sexual sins and crimes of non-biblical organizations and groups, in which people don't believe in God. These atheists on purpose or without knowledge from the right and wrong faith want to defame and slander people who believe in a right way Biblically on God and the Lord Jesus. In this way, they falsely distort the things as the article of Knoxnews did. According to the testimony of the Bible religiousness is godless. Atheists and religious people are in the same train traveling on their lives in the condition of godless people, because they don't believe the only Almight God, God of the Bible. Religious belief and Biblical faith on the Lord Jesus are totally two different things.

    People who are in the right and Biblical faith on the Lord Jesus make least crimes, because the right and Biblical faith is a such in which he tries to live according to the will of God and avoiding sins. The article of Knoxnews was an indication either purposely provocation or ignorance, in which writer of article and researchers don't know the difference between religiousness and the real Biblical faith, because they are totally two different things. According to the teaching of the Bible, religious people are godless who are living in the lies without connection with the God of the Bible, who is the Almighty God. In addition, in this light, it is very clear that religious person in the condition of godless as the slave of sins is making many kinds of crimes and sins.


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  13. #12  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Rubbish.
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  14. #13  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    I'm a Finnish and live in Finland. Here in Finland the majority of the populations are Lutherans. Majority of Finnish Lutherans doesn't believe on God of the Bible. According to Finnish prison and criminal data, the majority of prisoners are Lutherans. Majority from the Finnish Lutherans don't believe on God or the Bible. It means that large majority Lutherans that are recorded in prison, and criminal data are godless people. In the light of this fact and study here in Finland godless people are doing superior numbers' crimes in Finland.
    Anecdotal, unquantified and unreferenced. Therefore irrelevant.

    It is into question the same matter in America, in which the majority of Roman Catholic Church and Protestant churches' members don't believe in the Bible, but are living in sins against the will of God.[SIZE=2] In this light, the majority of America's criminal data church members are godless people.
    Citation required. No one is going to be convinced by made up numbers.

    According to this fact, the article of Knoxnews distorted the truth and the real fact is that also in America godless people commit the most crimes.
    Please provide some evidence, beyond fabricated numbers, to support this. The facts appear to contradict you. Now if you could do some sort of statistical or other fact-based analysis of the data ...

    In America ... blah blah blah ... this sect has nothing to do with health and genuine Biblical faith.
    So who defines what is "genuine Biblical faith"? You?

    People who are in the right and Biblical faith on the Lord Jesus make least crimes, because the right and Biblical faith is a such in which he tries to live according to the will of God and avoiding sins.
    Evidence, please.
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    Moderator Moderator Cogito Ergo Sum's Avatar
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    From your website: http://www.kotipetripaavola.com/reli...theists.html#3

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    American Knoxnews media has published an article reporting that the godless people commit less crime, have longer marriages and are more highly educated than almost any other group in America.(...) Because almost 80 percent from Finnish citizens are members of the Lutheran Church, and about 10 percent of them have the living faith on the Lord Jesus, so it means that the biggest part of Finnish people who are recorded in prison, and criminal data are members of Lutheran Church.

    [citation needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    They are godless people and members of religious institution. This means that they are negative towards God and believing on the Lord Jesus. Actually, they are godless people who are in prison and criminal statistics as members of religious institution. After all the truth is that godless people make the most crimes in Finland.

    I do not understand how one can be godless and have a negative towards the God of the Bible, if one is a member of a Lutheran Church.
    Furthermore, do atheists allegedly commit the majority of the crimes due to their lack of belief in a deity, or are there other reasons?

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    It is into question the same matter in America, in which the majority of Roman Catholic Church and Protestant churches' members don't believe in the Bible, but are living in sins against the will of God. In this light, the majority of America's criminal data church members are godless people. According to this fact, the article of Knoxnews distorted the truth and the real fact is that also in America godless people commit the most crimes.
    In America is plenty of unhealthy and non-biblical Christian sects and cults, in which happens a lot of sexual sins, for example, Catholicism and certain groups, which live against the teaching of the Bible, although they claim that believe in the Bible. For example, about non-biblical sect and cult in America is Branch Davidians religious sect in which the leader David Koreshi abused sexually women of the sect. According to the teaching of the Bible Branch Davidians sect lived in sexual sins and other sins, and this sect has nothing to do with health and genuine Biblical faith.

    I suppose that you used the data that you have stated earlier in your post? You need to give use reliable sources.
    Next, it is erroneous to think that godless (or non-Christian) people are, de facto, mostly criminals. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    Atheists always bring out sexual sins and crimes of non-biblical organizations and groups, in which people don't believe in God.

    Have you not just brought the sexual sins and crimes of other (non-)biblical organisations and groups under our attention? Irony?
    Besides, non-biblical organizations are not necessarily atheistic. Islam is a non-biblical organisation, but they do believe in God (although Muslims give their god another name).


    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    These atheists on purpose or without knowledge from the right and wrong faith want to defame and slander people who believe in a right way Biblically on God and the Lord Jesus. In this way, they falsely distort the things as the article of Knoxnews did.

    Which atheists have distorted the data of Knoxnews? And since when do atheists have faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    According to the testimony of the Bible religiousness is godless.

    Religious (ri-ˈli-jəs)
    "relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity"
    (Merriam Webster)

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    Atheists and religious people are in the same train traveling on their lives in the condition of godless people, because they don't believe the only Almight God, God of the Bible. Religious belief and Biblical faith on the Lord Jesus are totally two different things.

    There is no reason at all to distinguish between Biblical faith and religious faith in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    People who are in the right and Biblical faith on the Lord Jesus make least crimes, because the right and Biblical faith is a such in which he tries to live according to the will of God and avoiding sins. The article of Knoxnews was an indication either purposely provocation or ignorance, in which writer of article and researchers don't know the difference between religiousness and the real Biblical faith, because they are totally two different things.

    And the difference between the real Islamic faith and the real Jewish faith and the real Hinduistic faith and the real Zoroastrian faith etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    According to the teaching of the Bible, religious people are godless who are living in the lies without connection with the God of the Bible, who is the Almighty God. In addition, in this light, it is very clear that religious person in the condition of godless as the slave of sins is making many kinds of crimes and sins.

    Those 4.8 billion (non-)religious non-Christians must be deluded and criminal individuals, then?

    "Faith: not wanting to know what is true."
    ~ Friedrich Nietzsche
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    You can click and read my references in the end of my writing:

    References:
    33/38 Raamattu
    Biblia 1776
    King James version 1611
    verkkouutiset.fi
    iltasanomat.fi
    independent.co.uk/news
    knoxnews.com/news
    yle.fi/uutiset/6346462
    evl.fi/EVLUutiset
    seurakuntalainen.fi/uutiset

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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Albert Einstien was Jewish and he is considered a very intelligent person. There are many other scientists that are like him out there doing there research and seperating their "beliefs" from their work. While the total amount of truely religious "intelligent" people who can't be counted exactly, there are probably many who are but there are many atheists who are doing work as well without the belief in a God.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Albert Einstien was Jewish and he is considered a very intelligent person.
    And he didn't believe in god.
    What's your point?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  19. #18  
    Moderator Moderator Cogito Ergo Sum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    You can click and read my references in the end of my writing:

    References:
    33/38 Raamattu
    Biblia 1776
    King James version 1611
    verkkouutiset.fi
    iltasanomat.fi
    independent.co.uk/news
    knoxnews.com/news
    yle.fi/uutiset/6346462
    evl.fi/EVLUutiset
    seurakuntalainen.fi/uutiset

    Questions remain, e.g.:
    Where did their methodology fail?
    Were their conclusions biased?
    Was the data altered?
    Where did the contradictions arise?
    Which atheists have distorted the data of Knoxnews?
    Why do you assume that the Biblical faith is the only one that is right?

    Etc.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  20. #19  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Why do you assume that the Biblical faith is the only one that is right?
    Well, duh! Because the bible says so.
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  21. #20  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    King James version 1611
    As you agree that The Word of God was written in English, could you please stop all those Finnish people speaking a foreign language. It is blasphemous.

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    In America Rochester's university has been made scientific studies and analysis led by Professor Miron Zuckerman, which claims that religious people are less intelligent than non-believers.
    Some comments on your article:

    >The studies weren't consistent, because 10 studies found the positive correlation between intelligence and religiosity.

    Correct. That's what a meta-study means; a study of other studies. The vast majority showed a correlation between atheism and intelligence.

    >These "intelligent" people don't believe on God, and that is the reason why they don't take part to religion or religious communities.

    Correct - and that's what the study demonstrates. In GENERAL more intelligent people don't believe in God.

    >The study reported that "intelligent" people (very clear hint and reference to atheist) have ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex
    >ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience. This information is also misleading, because into question is theoretical wisdom

    You are confusing a lot of things here. Some notes:
    1) Intelligence is not wisdom.
    2) All the above characteristics are characteristics of intelligent people.
    3) Since those are all characteristics they are not misleading.

    > Majority of Finnish Lutherans doesn't believe on God of the Bible. . . . large majority Lutherans that are recorded in prison, and criminal data are godless people.

    Are you saying that the majority of Finnish Lutherans are atheists? If so, then you are using a different definition of "atheist" than everyone else, which may explain the confusion.

    >Many atheists believe that evolution theory has proven scientifically, but the fact is that no one can't prove indisputably that evolution theory is true.

    Yes, it has been proven scientifically. We have watched organisms evolve. We know it is true because we have seen it happen.

    >For this reason, atheism is a belief as religion

    Again, you are using a different definition than everyone else. It would be like someone claiming Lutheran=criminal and then trying to talk about the stats on Lutherans in prison.

    >Believing to God of the Bible by the Lord Jesus is the gift of God that lacked from atheist, and therefore, he can't understand the truth of the Bible and can't see the real wisdom.

    Is this true of Hindus and Muslims as well? Are they unable to see wisdom as well?

    It sounds like this metastudy makes you angry, because you are a Christian and want to believe that you are intellectually superior to other people. Research doesn't work that way; your desire to have the data come out a certain way does not make that data come out a certain way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    It sounds like this metastudy makes you angry, because you are a Christian and want to believe that you are intellectually superior to other people.
    Probably true and a great opportunity to point out another mistaken impression that people get in the face that one group is compared to some other--those average DO NOT apply to individuals within those groups (unless there is no overlap). There are obviously highly intelligent god fearing religious peoples just as well as their are mentally handicapped atheist. Group statistical characteristics should not be applied to individuals, or interpreted as such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Probably true and a great opportunity to point out another mistaken impression that people get in the face that one group is compared to some other--those average DO NOT apply to individuals within those groups (unless there is no overlap). There are obviously highly intelligent god fearing religious peoples just as well as their are mentally handicapped atheist. Group statistical characteristics should not be applied to individuals, or interpreted as such.
    Or, as PZ Myers put it:
    your intelligence is a property of the individual, and being a member of statistically slightly superior group doesn’t confer any special abilities on you, other than the ability to hide behind Richard Feynman and pretend his brilliance somehow rubbed off on you. It didn’t, sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    . . .those average DO NOT apply to individuals within those groups (unless there is no overlap). There are obviously highly intelligent god fearing religious peoples just as well as their are mentally handicapped atheist. Group statistical characteristics should not be applied to individuals, or interpreted as such.
    Agreed. And further, even between groups the delta is not huge - the average IQ difference between very religious types and atheists was only about 6 IQ points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Well, duh! Because the bible says so.

    Like this?
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    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

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    Interesting thread. IMO. It has been said that we are all born Atheist. If so, one must become 1)Indoctrinated in a Religion or 2) Accept a religious group through a thoughtful study, 3) Reject all notions of a god or indoctrination by inclination, or thoughtful study, or 4) sit on the fence. There is a high % of #1 and a more than a few #4 counting the ones occupying the closet. In some parts of the world there are a lot of #3. There is not very many #2. I have never met a highly intelligent religious person, though I know many, many smart RPs. Highly intelligent to me means a thinker, and a thinker will dismiss all superstition. #2?, I have met a few , not many, and all of them have a talent or an on /off switch at the base of their cerebrum, meaning they have an ability to think and can turn off the thought and accept a faith independent of thought. I don't think that an Atheist can do this, I can't, not and be intellectually honest with myself. I repeat IMO, the most intelligent by far is #3, next #4, with #1 and #2 the caboose. I don't apologize for your position, it is your choice to use your noggin or not. If you suspect you were indoctrinated as a child, you are most likely right, seek help. It could be a close race if one measured only potential, because I personally know many potentially intelligent people, but they choose to not use their intelligence.
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    Arguing in favor of theistic religion is like Housefly philosophy, the only thing that's important is a pile of shit. From reading the OP and listening to the author try to explain(?) his/her POV I can't help but wonder: if we as a species are so intelligent then why are we so stupid?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    American Knoxnews media has published an article reporting that the godless people commit less crime, have longer marriages and are more highly educated than almost any other group in America.

    Knoxnews media reported that according to Federal Bureau of Prisons' data, the number of responding persons in prison acknowledging they were Catholic was 39 percent; Protestant, 35 percent; Muslim, 7 percent; Jewish, 2 percent; and godless, 0.2 percent (20 percent did not respond).

    Knoxnews media reported that since the number of godless is estimated to be 10 percent of the general population, all things being equal, you would expect their prison population to be 10 percent. Knoxnews media continues reporting that fundamentalist Christians have the highest divorce rate, followed by Jews and Baptists.
    Konxnews media reports that a review of worldwide studies found that criminality and religion go hand in hand, because countries with the most religious people have the highest crime rates, highest sexually transmitted diseases and the highest teen pregnancy rates.

    The article of Knoxnews media is misleading and distorted the things very badly. I bring out by few matters that how the article was erroneous and misleading. I'm a Finnish and live in Finland. Here in Finland the majority of the populations are Lutherans. Majority of Finnish Lutherans doesn't believe on God of the Bible. According to Finnish prison and criminal data, the majority of prisoners are Lutherans. Majority from the Finnish Lutherans don't believe on God or the Bible. It means that large majority Lutherans that are recorded in prison, and criminal data are godless people. In the light of this fact and study here in Finland godless people are doing superior numbers' crimes in Finland.

    According to Finnish Lutheran Church's research center about 14-24 years Finnish people only 15 percent believed God of Christianity (number is from year 2011). In the year, 2011 from all Finnish young people and adults 27 percent said that they believed in God of Christianity. According to revised demographics, 77,2 people in Finland belonged to Lutheran Church (31.12.2011).

    Based on preceding numbers the biggest part from the members of Finnish Lutheran Church doesn't believe God of the Bible. This means that they are godless people and members of religious institution. Almost 80 percent from Finnish citizens belongs to Lutheran Church, and about 60 percent of them don't believe God of the Bible. Lutheran Church's members about 10 percent is religious people who believe in God, but they don't live according to the teaching of God ( they are not the disciples of the Lord Jesus). From the Finnish Lutheran Church's members, about 10 percent are on living faith to the Lord Jesus.

    Because almost 80 percent from Finnish citizens are members of the Lutheran Church, and about 10 percent of them have the living faith on the Lord Jesus, so it means that the biggest part of Finnish people who are recorded in prison, and criminal data are members of Lutheran Church. They are godless people and members of religious institution. This means that they are negative towards God and believing on the Lord Jesus. Actually, they are godless people who are in prison and criminal statistics as members of religious institution. After all the truth is that godless people make the most crimes in Finland.

    It is into question the same matter in America, in which the majority of Roman Catholic Church and Protestant churches' members don't believe in the Bible, but are living in sins against the will of God. In this light, the majority of America's criminal data church members are godless people. According to this fact, the article of Knoxnews distorted the truth and the real fact is that also in America godless people commit the most crimes.

    In America is plenty of unhealthy and non-biblical Christian sects and cults, in which happens a lot of sexual sins, for example, Catholicism and certain groups, which live against the teaching of the Bible, although they claim that believe in the Bible. For example, about non-biblical sect and cult in America is Branch Davidians religious sect in which the leader David Koreshi abused sexually women of the sect. According to the teaching of the Bible Branch Davidians sect lived in sexual sins and other sins, and this sect has nothing to do with health and genuine Biblical faith.

    Atheists always bring out sexual sins and crimes of non-biblical organizations and groups, in which people don't believe in God. These atheists on purpose or without knowledge from the right and wrong faith want to defame and slander people who believe in a right way Biblically on God and the Lord Jesus. In this way, they falsely distort the things as the article of Knoxnews did. According to the testimony of the Bible religiousness is godless. Atheists and religious people are in the same train traveling on their lives in the condition of godless people, because they don't believe the only Almight God, God of the Bible. Religious belief and Biblical faith on the Lord Jesus are totally two different things.

    People who are in the right and Biblical faith on the Lord Jesus make least crimes, because the right and Biblical faith is a such in which he tries to live according to the will of God and avoiding sins. The article of Knoxnews was an indication either purposely provocation or ignorance, in which writer of article and researchers don't know the difference between religiousness and the real Biblical faith, because they are totally two different things. According to the teaching of the Bible, religious people are godless who are living in the lies without connection with the God of the Bible, who is the Almighty God. In addition, in this light, it is very clear that religious person in the condition of godless as the slave of sins is making many kinds of crimes and sins.


    Next time, will you please give me the URL.

    I don't read posts that long.
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    Research that based on results of ISSP (International Social Survey Programme) ja GESIS:n (Institute for the Social Sciences) have brought out, that Sweden is one the most atheistic country in the world. According to the research also Czech Republic is a very atheistic country. On the research was asked among other things followed questions; I don't believe in God, I don't believe in God and I never have, believing in a Personal God. Results are from the year 2008.


    Sweden was at the front in different countries' divorce statistics. In addition, Czech Republic was at the front in that statistics. According to NationaMaster.com statistics (2000) in Sweden, the divorces' rates compared the world rates was the second most and in Czech Republic the third most when was calculated how many divorces happen per 100 marriages. The rate of Sweden was 53,9 per divorces per 100 marriages, and czech Republic rate was 53,7 divorces per 100 marriages. Finland's rate was 53,2 divorces per 100 marriages.


    In the light of preceding statistics' people who have the atheistic world view (don't believe on God) have the most divorce cases. Knoxnews's previously mentioned article of was provocation and purposely distorted, which intention was promoting of atheism.


    NationMaster.com's rape statistics reported that in the year 2009, rape case in Sweden was the fourth most in the world. In France was done the most rape cases and in Germany, the second most in the world. According to IPPS statistics, France and Germany were at the top from the countries, in which people didn't believe in God. In the light of this results people who have the atheistic world view make the most rape cases.


    From these statistics brings out that large amount of godless people lives immorality. Immorality is not an indication about the intelligent, but indications from negative and harmful lifestyle.


    In the year 2012, members of Swedish Lutheran Church were 67 percent from the population. About 2 percent from Lutherans in Sweden regularly attended to Sunday meetings. According to research Sweden was one of the most atheistic countries in the world despite it that almost 70 percent of them were members of Lutheran Church. This means that the biggest part from members of Swedish Lutheran Church doesn't believe in God. In the light of all the preceding information majority of Swedish Lutheran Church's members are godless people. Swedish divorce and rape statistics tell the fact that godless people are the most immoral people. We can see also that being a member in religious institution don't mean that they believe in God or the Bible, but the most of them are godless people. My intention is not slander godless people, but bring out the facts that stand behind the statistics.


    It is truly clear that people who believe in God of the Bible (believe in the Lord Jesus) live according to very high moral. It is very important to bring out one important thing, which distorts the facts. Pedophilia is disgusting, and evil sin of fornication (sexual sin) and crusades are against God's will. Pedophilia scandals of Roman Catholic Church (RCC) and bloody crusades done by Catholics don't represent the Biblical faith, but devilish behavior of sin and evil deeds. Roman Catholic Church is not the Church of God, but the false imitation from the Church of God.


    Many people say that the Christiany has killed millions of people. This claim is incorrect, because Roman catholic Church has killed millions of people. In reality, godless people on disguise of a believer did those horrific killings. Things done by religion don't mean the same thing as the Biblical faith. From this very clear example and indication is evil deeds of Roman Catholic Church. The real Christianity and Roman Catholic Church are totally two different things.


    Religious and theological teachings of Roman Catholic Church are against the word of God (Status of Mary and pope, sacrifice of the mass, purgatory, doctrine of indulgences, salvation through water baptism and so on). Wrong teachings, sexual crimes and killings of Roman Catholic Church show that religiousness of Roman Catholic Church is ungodliness, because RCC teaches and lives against the teaching of the Bible.


    In the matter of fact religion and religiousness represent ungodliness, because according to the teaching of the Bible believing in God by the Lord Jesus question the faith, not from the religion or religiousness. Because the Bible says that all the gods of the people are idols (religion). This means that religiousness, and religion is a sin against God. In the light of this Biblical fact, all godless people (religious people, atheists and all who don't believe to God of the Bible) commit the most crimes and live most of all immoral life.
    Criticism against Christianity that has been given for teachings and evil deeds of Roman Catholic Church has gone to the wrong address, because RCC doesn't represent the real and genuine Biblical faith, but it is false imitation from the genuine Christianity. When the target of criticism is wrong, so that kind of criticism has no value of the truth. If you have criticized from Christianity based on Roman Catholic Church's doctrine and evil deeds, so you have criticized wrong target.


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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    In the matter of fact religion and religiousness represent ungodliness, because according to the teaching of the Bible believing in God by the Lord Jesus question the faith, not from the religion or religiousness. Because the Bible says that all the gods of the people are idols (religion). This means that religiousness, and religion is a sin against God. In the light of this Biblical fact, all godless people (religious people, atheists and all who don't believe to God of the Bible) commit the most crimes and live most of all immoral life.
    Ah, so atheists are godless people. and godless people include religious people. And people who have a formalized belief in God (i.e. religion) are godless.

    It is truly clear that people who believe in God of the Bible (believe in the Lord Jesus) live according to very high moral.


    And people who believe in the God of the Bible - above defined as godless - live to very high morals. So does that mean that all Godless people - atheists and religious - have high morals? Do the remaining people (presumably people who do not believe in any formal religion but believe in something) have low morals?
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    It is truly clear that people who believe in God of the Bible (believe in the Lord Jesus) live according to very high moral. It is very important to bring out one important thing, which distorts the facts. Pedophilia is disgusting, and evil sin of fornication (sexual sin) and crusades are against God's will. Pedophilia scandals of Roman Catholic Church (RCC) and bloody crusades done by Catholics don't represent the Biblical faith, but devilish behavior of sin and evil deeds. Roman Catholic Church is not the Church of God, but the false imitation from the Church of God.
    Nice.

    So people who believe in God are inherently morally superior except in instances where it inconveniences the faith, wherein you simply deny that they belong to that faith.

    Tell me you realize how idiotic that rationale really is...
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    Research that based on results of ISSP (International Social Survey Programme) ja GESIS:n (Institute for the Social Sciences) have brought out, that Sweden is one the most atheistic country in the world. According to the research also Czech Republic is a very atheistic country. On the research was asked among other things followed questions; I don't believe in God, I don't believe in God and I never have, believing in a Personal God. Results are from the year 2008.

    Go on.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    Sweden was at the front in different countries' divorce statistics. In addition, Czech Republic was at the front in that statistics. According to NationaMaster.com statistics (2000) in Sweden, the divorces' rates compared the world rates was the second most and in Czech Republic the third most when was calculated how many divorces happen per 100 marriages. The rate of Sweden was 53,9 per divorces per 100 marriages, and czech Republic rate was 53,7 divorces per 100 marriages. Finland's rate was 53,2 divorces per 100 marriages.

    [citation needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    In the light of preceding statistics' people who have the atheistic world view (don't believe on God) have the most divorce cases. Knoxnews's previously mentioned article of was provocation and purposely distorted, which intention was promoting of atheism.

    Comparing statistics from 2008 concerning belief with data from 2000 about marriage is not advisable.
    Besides, you still need to explain how the data is distorted. I asked you this in posts #4 and #18.


    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    NationMaster.com's rape statistics reported that in the year 2009, rape case in Sweden was the fourth most in the world. In France was done the most rape cases and in Germany, the second most in the world. According to IPPS statistics, France and Germany were at the top from the countries, in which people didn't believe in God. In the light of this results people who have the atheistic world view make the most rape cases.

    [citation needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    From these statistics brings out that large amount of godless people lives immorality. Immorality is not an indication about the intelligent, but indications from negative and harmful lifestyle.

    There are at least 3 errors in your statements:
    1. You have used the statistics from 2000, 2008 and 2009 about three different subjects and used the data of five countries.
    2. Immorality does not imply (lack of) intelligence (if it does, please cite your reference(s)).
    3. Divorce and lack of belief in a deity are not, by any means, a sign of immorality.
    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    In the year 2012, members of Swedish Lutheran Church were 67 percent from the population. About 2 percent from Lutherans in Sweden regularly attended to Sunday meetings. According to research Sweden was one of the most atheistic countries in the world despite it that almost 70 percent of them were members of Lutheran Church. This means that the biggest part from members of Swedish Lutheran Church doesn't believe in God. In the light of all the preceding information majority of Swedish Lutheran Church's members are godless people. Swedish divorce and rape statistics tell the fact that godless people are the most immoral people. We can see also that being a member in religious institution don't mean that they believe in God or the Bible, but the most of them are godless people. My intention is not slander godless people, but bring out the facts that stand behind the statistics.

    [citation needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    It is truly clear that people who believe in God of the Bible (believe in the Lord Jesus) live according to very high moral. It is very important to bring out one important thing, which distorts the facts. Pedophilia is disgusting, and evil sin of fornication (sexual sin) and crusades are against God's will. Pedophilia scandals of Roman Catholic Church (RCC) and bloody crusades done by Catholics don't represent the Biblical faith, but devilish behavior of sin and evil deeds. Roman Catholic Church is not the Church of God, but the false imitation from the Church of God.

    You have not read the Old Testament, have you?

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    Many people say that the Christiany has killed millions of people. This claim is incorrect, because Roman catholic Church has killed millions of people. In reality, godless people on disguise of a believer did those horrific killings. Things done by religion don't mean the same thing as the Biblical faith. From this very clear example and indication is evil deeds of Roman Catholic Church. The real Christianity and Roman Catholic Church are totally two different things.

    You do realize that you cannot draw conclusions from 1500 years history if your data only goes back to the year 2000?
    And you also have to show that the followers of the RCC of the past were atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    Religious and theological teachings of Roman Catholic Church are against the word of God (Status of Mary and pope, sacrifice of the mass, purgatory, doctrine of indulgences, salvation through water baptism and so on). Wrong teachings, sexual crimes and killings of Roman Catholic Church show that religiousness of Roman Catholic Church is ungodliness, because RCC teaches and lives against the teaching of the Bible.

    Interesting remark, but those notions do not belong on a Science forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    In the matter of fact religion and religiousness represent ungodliness, because according to the teaching of the Bible believing in God by the Lord Jesus question the faith, not from the religion or religiousness.

    Faith (ˈfāth):
    "belief and trust in and loyalty to God; belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion"
    (Merriam Webster)

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    Because the Bible says that all the gods of the people are idols (religion). This means that religiousness, and religion is a sin against God. In the light of this Biblical fact, all godless people (religious people, atheists and all who don't believe to God of the Bible) commit the most crimes and live most of all immoral life.

    [citation needed]

    Quote Originally Posted by PetriFB View Post
    Criticism against Christianity that has been given for teachings and evil deeds of Roman Catholic Church has gone to the wrong address, because RCC doesn't represent the real and genuine Biblical faith, but it is false imitation from the genuine Christianity. When the target of criticism is wrong, so that kind of criticism has no value of the truth. If you have criticized from Christianity based on Roman Catholic Church's doctrine and evil deeds, so you have criticized wrong target.

    Member Strange asked you this already, but again:
    Please define "real and genuine Biblical faith".
    Last edited by Cogito Ergo Sum; February 1st, 2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Spelling error.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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