Has anything you've said on a forum or blog had any influence?

[Ken Fabos]

Sometimes it seems like minds are rarely changed by anything we say beyond an occasional answer to a question that is appreciated. We get a few likes from people who probably already agree. But have people who began by disagreeing come to change their minds or has the wider discussion been altered in any significant way by something you've contributed?

After a few years of spending perhaps an hour or more a day engaged in various internet discussions I have to ask myself; has there been anything beyond a bit of personal satisfaction to show for it?

I have a couple of examples where I think I have had a small influence - whilst noting that sometimes the time is right for an idea or different focus and what can appear to be my very own logical leap is a consequence of the current flow of information that is out there and won't be actually be unique to me.

Example one - the function of human body hair. The first topic I got involved in at scienceforum.com was the Evolution of Human Hairlessness thread. At that time human body hair was almost universally considered a functionless vestige or at most have some minor role in carrying pheronomes. I pointed out that hair has a sensory function - something so obvious and self evident to me that I struggled (and still do) to understand how it could be so consistently overlooked. A lot of searches with variations at that time found plenty of references to body hair in lists of 'useless' and vestigial body parts and I recall struggling to find more than passing mention of that sensory function - a paywalled paper that included an experiment that puffed air to move hair and thus 'enervate' follicular nerves, a mention of use of body hair's sensory function in an obscure journal on Haptics (interfacing between people and machines). Otherwise from Darwin through to Jablonski, the human evolution experts failed to notice or take into consideration this clear and easily demonstrated function.

Take a tour with a search engine today and you can still find examples of body hair in the 'useless' lists but you will also easily find mentions of it's sensory function. A peer reviewed paper appeared since then that showed hairs could detect parasites and that has flowed through but that didn't happen until long after I first discussed it here and elsewhere. So, did I have any influence in this? I think that, if any single internet contribution of mine has had an effect it's probably been my contribution of a "Touch Sense" paragraph in Wikipedia's entry on hair (not my best worded effort but it still stands). I keep thinking that every time someone has the urge to publish something about human body hair, they probably have Wikipedia on the list of places to get acquainted, and reading it there means they can't ignore it.

This was a case of pointing out the obvious. Being so obvious makes it difficult to claim credit but I'm going to do so anyway. Think I had nothing to do with the growing acceptance of hairs having a sensory function? Feel free to argue otherwise.

Example two. Asking a question of an expert that prompted a peer reviewed climate science paper.

On an open thread at OpenMind I asked -

"...msu-amsu data shows ENSO strongly. Would it be of any value to see temperature data adjusted for ENSO or does that pose problems?"

A few posts later Tamino did "Sharper Focus" -

A reader asked whether or not it’s possible to remove the el Nino influence from temperature data, since the el Nino response is one of the key differences between satellite and land-based temperature estimates. Of course we can’t remove the el Nino influence perfectly but we can do so approximately, and the same is true for volcanic eruptions and the residual annual cycle.

Ultimately this was developed into the peer reviewed "Global temperature evolution 1979–2010" which included a graph of adjusted temperatures that was to become very well known -




I wouldn't claim that no-one would have thought of this approach if I hadn't asked the question, but I did ask the question and the answer we got (the answer was not addressed specifically to me) was well worth the asking.

So, any examples where your contributions have had an impact?

[zinjanthropos]

Personally I have changed my mind on certain subjects several times. I don't want to swell some egos so I'll forego mentioning a few of the members who have swayed my opinion. Mind changing is relative, the more you know on a subject the less you will be influenced by someone else. I might have just called myself a dummy but if one sticks exclusively to their avenue of expertise then don't expect to have your mind changed unless it is something absolutely Einstein-esque that comes along. IOW's before changing the mind, an expert has to realize he/she is wrong and brother that ain't gonna happen too often.

[Bad Robot]

It's not all that easy to pinpoint a topic you started that made an impact on society. But one thing I do know is many people read these science forums and many new ideas are generated. I know many people have watched Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman and I'll swear some of the topics they've done were first topics on a science forum.

I think science forums are noticed by people that can make a difference, and anything that stimulates the sharing of new ideas and promotes discussions by people all over the world is something I enjoy very much.

[Dywyddyr]

"Has anything you've said on a forum or blog had any influence?"
Yes.
Next question.


On a slightly more serious note:
Although you've given an example in the OP how "influential" were you looking for?
Why limit it to "forum or blog"?
Or are you under the impression that we keep our "influential remarks" fo real life/ restrict them only to the intertubes?

[Neverfly]

Everything I've ever said over the interweb has had an influence. Whether or not it was the one I intended, was lasting, world shattering, enjoyable or something that didn't have major consequences is a whole 'nother question.

[Strange]

I got mentioned in the (very long) acknowledgements list of a computer science reference book because of my contributions to a discussion on a Usenet forum. (I am disproportionately proud of this as it is the only public credit I have had - I have been writing for over 30 years but all of my work is either confidential, published anonymously or published under someone else's name).

But the biggest influence has been on me - I have learned an enormous amount from discussions on forums.

[babe]

I just speak my mind and any knowledge that I have on a subject. I ask questions. I am sometimes impertinent as humor and banter are my specialties, however, have I, personally made an impact in here. I really don't know. I hope my lighter sense of humor, possibly tempered with a slight (OK OK OK SLIGHT SLIGHT SLIGHT) knowledge of things scientific have at least produced a smile here and there. Do I make wonderful claims of great knowledge. Nope. Do I enjoy learning, and sometimes questioning? Yes.

[Neverfly]

I just speak my mind and any knowledge that I have on a subject. I ask questions. I am sometimes impertinent as humor and banter are my specialties, however, have I, personally made an impact in here. I really don't know. I hope my lighter sense of humor, possibly tempered with a slight (OK OK OK SLIGHT SLIGHT SLIGHT) knowledge of things scientific have at least produced a smile here and there. Do I make wonderful claims of great knowledge. Nope. Do I enjoy learning, and sometimes questioning? Yes.

I have a gender bias.

Women and Science are a good mix.

Sadly, due to an older gender bias, it's only in recent times (again) that it's permissible for a woman to pursue a scientific field without the scoffs and supposed surprise that a GIRL might be interested in math or science instead of cooking and cleaning.
While it still happens, it is nothing like it was in 1950. At least in the U.S.A.

Because of this bias, I've encouraged most new female members to stick around the board whenever one popped up. I didn't always take it easy on them... Either way, in the end, few stuck around during my short and recent participation here.

I am glad you have. You add not just the knowledge you share, but tempered personality and wit.

[Dywyddyr]

it's only in recent times (again) that it's permissible for a woman to pursue a scientific field

That's because evolution took so long to develop brains in women...

(Too late, I've run away. Bwahaha!).

[Neverfly]

That's because evolution took so long to develop brains in women...

(Too late, I've run away. Bwahaha!).

Now; let's observe what influence this post has.

[LuciDreaming]

Last year I made a suggestion of a date in a private message to someone I knew both on and outside the forum. He's a naturally big man and was slightly overweight but only slightly. Anyway, apparently the horror of being propositioned by some-one 20 years younger than him made him resolve to hit the gym and he's now built like one of the Spartans in "300"......

So whilst I'm happy to have inspired a positive change in some-one........... ouch!

[LuciDreaming]

it's only in recent times (again) that it's permissible for a woman to pursue a scientific field

That's because evolution took so long to develop brains in women...

(Too late, I've run away. Bwahaha!).

Revenge is a dish best served cold duck!

[LuciDreaming]

Or should that be cold duck is best served on a dish.......

[adelady]

But the biggest influence has been on me - I have learned an enormous amount from discussions on forums.

I'd agree.

Of course, I like to 'pass it on' so the things that have made an impression on me get further chances to inform/ influence other people.

[Ken Fabos]

I get a small kick when I see that Foster and Rahmstorf graph, but the reality is my contribution was minimal, with a strong likelihood someone would have tried something similar irrespective of my input. What it did do was confirm that the internet can be a way that ideas can come to the attention of the right people - but it requires that the 'right people' were engaging with the public. It confirmed there is some value to contributing to discussions, despite being a layperson and often putting foot in mouth.

The sensory function of hair has probably been more a case of me being a borderline internet crank, butting in whenever I come across posts/pages/publications that perpetuate the 'useless body hair' meme. Pointing out the obvious adds some weight to our words but for all the discussion on sites like this - the Evolution of Hairlessness thread ran a long time - most of my contributions were idle speculations that probably added nothing and had little impact. But I suspect the Wikipedia entry I did has had a significant impact - because it's so often the first stop when someone has the urge to do a gratuitous post on the recurrent subject of the peculiarities of our pelage. It's been interesting but not very edifying way to make an impact.


We can write to academics, politicians or spokespeople - without the internet - and sometimes they will be receptive. I've done that too - polite and informative replies from some within climate and related science, polite and uninformative from politicians - but the couple of human evolution specialists I wrote to never replied or acknowledged my concerns.

So I have a couple of minor and debatable "achievements" but I still wonder if too much of my time - and life's opportunities - has been squandered in the process.

[Dywyddyr]

but I still wonder if too much of my time - and life's opportunities - has been squandered in the process.

Rubbish.
No matter what you're doing you're "missing the opportunity" to do something else.
If you're doing something you're good at then it's not "squandering" your time.

[Ken Fabos]

Dywyddyr -

No matter what you're doing you're "missing the opportunity" to do something else.

True of course. It is an unexpected privilege to have the kinds of access to information and communications that we do. I can ask a question out of curiosity and have people from around the world discuss it. Wow! I've gained much from contributions freely given.

[Dywyddyr]

It is an unexpected privilege to have the kinds of access to information and communications that we do. I can ask a question out of curiosity and have people from around the world discuss it.

Hmm, yes and no.
I can remember turning 7 and my father taking me to the local library to get my own library card - I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.
At least with a book (or, more precisely, with a book in those days ¹) there was a good chance that any information you found was reliable ². These days you have to spend a good deal of time sorting wheat from chaff, so, apart from travel time (to library and back) it's about the same length of time spent obtaining information.
Yes, you can discuss the information on the 'net, but there's also the off-topic and I'll just Google this, so it's probably swings and roundabouts.
I think another problem is that there's a hell of a lot of information not available on the 'net ³ so you have to turn to the books anyway ⁴.

I had a point here somewhere... oh, yes, it's this: surely all ages would have considered themselves privileged to have access to the information they did have access to? Visions of someone fainting from information overload on opening the Domesday Book... hmm, and possibly some malcontents complaining about the rise of Big Brother and the police state...


1 Self-publishing/ vanity publishers were nowhere near so prevalent.
2 Or that was my perception. As I get older I find that publishers seem to be willing to accept any old crap if they think it will sell - maybe that's always been the case and I was simply consistently lucky ⁵!
3 Although the 'net is more current, generally, it still hasn't caught up with all the archived material.
4 And I have a great deal of sympathy for Rupert Giles' comment that books have soul, computers tend to be soulless. Information from books has weight ⁶.
5 Or maybe I'm just getting considerably more selective in my old age ⁸.
6 And you can't read a book on a PC in the bath, on the loo, walking into town ⁷...
7 Although I've discovered - the very hard way - that reading a book while riding a bicycle is fraught with a number of problems.
8 Entirely possible - I've got to the point now where no one I know will buy me a book related to my own interests: if it's any good I already own it, if I haven't got it it's either on order or so crap I don't want it (with the exception of OOP and hugely expensive ones).

[babe]

I just speak my mind and any knowledge that I have on a subject. I ask questions. I am sometimes impertinent as humor and banter are my specialties, however, have I, personally made an impact in here. I really don't know. I hope my lighter sense of humor, possibly tempered with a slight (OK OK OK SLIGHT SLIGHT SLIGHT) knowledge of things scientific have at least produced a smile here and there. Do I make wonderful claims of great knowledge. Nope. Do I enjoy learning, and sometimes questioning? Yes.

I have a gender bias.

Women and Science are a good mix.

Sadly, due to an older gender bias, it's only in recent times (again) that it's permissible for a woman to pursue a scientific field without the scoffs and supposed surprise that a GIRL might be interested in math or science instead of cooking and cleaning.
While it still happens, it is nothing like it was in 1950. At least in the U.S.A.

Because of this bias, I've encouraged most new female members to stick around the board whenever one popped up. I didn't always take it easy on them... Either way, in the end, few stuck around during my short and recent participation here.

I am glad you have. You add not just the knowledge you share, but tempered personality and wit.

Mahalo!

[babe]

That's because evolution took so long to develop brains in women...

(Too late, I've run away. Bwahaha!).

Now; let's observe what influence this post has.

I'm a redhead......SWACK!

[babe]

Or should that be cold duck is best served on a dish.......

A little DUCK Pate, perhaps?

[adelady]

As I get older I find that publishers seem to be willing to accept any old crap if they think it will sell - maybe that's always been the case and I was simply consistently lucky

Nuh. I get the impression they're just not prepared to employ enough/any editors to edit books properly. We have no way of knowing how awful some of the older books we admire might have been before an editor took the author firmly in hand. Delete here, rewrite there, narrative falls apart here, this bit's too short, this is too long - and all the rest of it.

[Alec Bing]

I met my husband on an internet forum. Does that count?

[Dywyddyr]

Nuh. I get the impression they're just not prepared to employ enough/any editors to edit books properly.

Oh yeah, I missed that rant - falling standards of editing... even in once "impeccable" publications.

We have no way of knowing how awful some of the older books we admire might have been before an editor took the author firmly in hand. Delete here, rewrite there, narrative falls apart here, this bit's too short, this is too long - and all the rest of it.

Not so much the editing as the fact that, with the advent of cheap publishing etc., even complete cranks get to have books published.
Granted von Daniken and the like managed it, but there seems to be a veritable flood of outright stupidity available these days.

[Flick Montana]

I'm not here to influence anyone. I love discussion. I love sitting in a group and just talking to other people. Unfortunately, I either spend my day sweating my butt off in the field or sitting in an office entering data. This forum is, quite tragically, the most socialization I get and it is with a group much more diverse than I could interact with in person.

[jakesyl]

Sometimes it seems like minds are rarely changed by anything we say beyond an occasional answer to a question that is appreciated. We get a few likes from people who probably already agree. But have people who began by disagreeing come to change their minds or has the wider discussion been altered in any significant way by something you've contributed?

After a few years of spending perhaps an hour or more a day engaged in various internet discussions I have to ask myself; has there been anything beyond a bit of personal satisfaction to show for it?

I have a couple of examples where I think I have had a small influence - whilst noting that sometimes the time is right for an idea or different focus and what can appear to be my very own logical leap is a consequence of the current flow of information that is out there and won't be actually be unique to me.

Example one - the function of human body hair. The first topic I got involved in at scienceforum.com was the Evolution of Human Hairlessness thread. At that time human body hair was almost universally considered a functionless vestige or at most have some minor role in carrying pheronomes. I pointed out that hair has a sensory function - something so obvious and self evident to me that I struggled (and still do) to understand how it could be so consistently overlooked. A lot of searches with variations at that time found plenty of references to body hair in lists of 'useless' and vestigial body parts and I recall struggling to find more than passing mention of that sensory function - a paywalled paper that included an experiment that puffed air to move hair and thus 'enervate' follicular nerves, a mention of use of body hair's sensory function in an obscure journal on Haptics (interfacing between people and machines). Otherwise from Darwin through to Jablonski, the human evolution experts failed to notice or take into consideration this clear and easily demonstrated function.

Take a tour with a search engine today and you can still find examples of body hair in the 'useless' lists but you will also easily find mentions of it's sensory function. A peer reviewed paper appeared since then that showed hairs could detect parasites and that has flowed through but that didn't happen until long after I first discussed it here and elsewhere. So, did I have any influence in this? I think that, if any single internet contribution of mine has had an effect it's probably been my contribution of a "Touch Sense" paragraph in Wikipedia's entry on hair (not my best worded effort but it still stands). I keep thinking that every time someone has the urge to publish something about human body hair, they probably have Wikipedia on the list of places to get acquainted, and reading it there means they can't ignore it.

This was a case of pointing out the obvious. Being so obvious makes it difficult to claim credit but I'm going to do so anyway. Think I had nothing to do with the growing acceptance of hairs having a sensory function? Feel free to argue otherwise.

Example two. Asking a question of an expert that prompted a peer reviewed climate science paper.

On an open thread at OpenMind I asked -

"...msu-amsu data shows ENSO strongly. Would it be of any value to see temperature data adjusted for ENSO or does that pose problems?"

A few posts later Tamino did "Sharper Focus" -

A reader asked whether or not it’s possible to remove the el Nino influence from temperature data, since the el Nino response is one of the key differences between satellite and land-based temperature estimates. Of course we can’t remove the el Nino influence perfectly but we can do so approximately, and the same is true for volcanic eruptions and the residual annual cycle.

Ultimately this was developed into the peer reviewed "Global temperature evolution 1979–2010" which included a graph of adjusted temperatures that was to become very well known -




I wouldn't claim that no-one would have thought of this approach if I hadn't asked the question, but I did ask the question and the answer we got (the answer was not addressed specifically to me) was well worth the asking.

So, any examples where your contributions have had an impact?

Yes made me agnostic

[babe]

I'm not here to influence anyone. I love discussion. I love sitting in a group and just talking to other people. Unfortunately, I either spend my day sweating my butt off in the field or sitting in an office entering data. This forum is, quite tragically, the most socialization I get and it is with a group much more diverse than I could interact with in person.

Oh heavens do I have a place for you! *L* but you'd be dealing with all walks of life, and where you have to learn people....cause it is live *L*..

[Flick Montana]

I deal with people of all walks. Usually brisk walks. Toward me. With a shotgun, yelling at me for being on their land.

[babe]

I deal with people of all walks. Usually brisk walks. Toward me. With a shotgun, yelling at me for being on their land.

Why?

[KALSTER]

This forum has been a huge find for me and I don't mean that lightly. The range of people and depth of knowledge I have encountered here during these years have been of high importance and I have learned a huge amount about science, life and people. I have no outlet for my love of science and no companionship in regards to my beliefs in my daily life.

My sincere wish is that in some small way I can pay forward what I have learned here.

[Neverfly]

My sincere wish is that in some small way I can pay forward what I have learned here.

Not a problem. I accept PayPal, money orders and cosigned personal checks. Most major credit cards (Not American Express.)

[KALSTER]

My sincere wish is that in some small way I can pay forward what I have learned here.

Not a problem. I accept PayPal, money orders and cosigned personal checks. Most major credit cards (Not American Express.)

Haha, I just found out during the week that my mastercard is no longer activated for online purchases, so I'll have to fix that first.

[Flick Montana]

I deal with people of all walks. Usually brisk walks. Toward me. With a shotgun, yelling at me for being on their land.

Why?

I worked for state government so I was legally allowed (and often required) to be on private property to investigate violations. Farmers (even those making hundreds of thousands of dollars from government subsidies) don't like government personnel on their property. I've had to face down firearms with a plastic badge several times.

[babe]

I deal with people of all walks. Usually brisk walks. Toward me. With a shotgun, yelling at me for being on their land.

Why?

I worked for state government so I was legally allowed (and often required) to be on private property to investigate violations. Farmers (even those making hundreds of thousands of dollars from government subsidies) don't like government personnel on their property. I've had to face down firearms with a plastic badge several times.

Did the plastic work? *L*

[jocular]

I met my husband on an internet forum. Does that count?

Is he still as good a "catch" now as he appeared to be then? jocular

[babe]

I met my husband on an internet forum. Does that count?

Is he still as good a "catch" now as he appeared to be then? jocular

Was she fly fishing or deep sea? Just curious.

[Flick Montana]

I deal with people of all walks. Usually brisk walks. Toward me. With a shotgun, yelling at me for being on their land.

Why?

I worked for state government so I was legally allowed (and often required) to be on private property to investigate violations. Farmers (even those making hundreds of thousands of dollars from government subsidies) don't like government personnel on their property. I've had to face down firearms with a plastic badge several times.

Did the plastic work? *L*

Well, I'm still here...

[Dywyddyr]

Well, I'm still here...

We only have your word for it.
It's only anecdotal "evidence".

[Flick Montana]

Until I master quantum superposition, it's the best you're going to get.

[AlexG]

There's a poster name Layman, over on Sciforums. He's convinced that I am the head of a conspiracy which is hacking the web to remove any references to electromagnetic waves being composed of electrons, and substituting false information that EMR is composed of photons.

I'm so proud. I must use this power only for good, and of course to prove Layman wrong.

[babe]

I deal with people of all walks. Usually brisk walks. Toward me. With a shotgun, yelling at me for being on their land.

Why?

I worked for state government so I was legally allowed (and often required) to be on private property to investigate violations. Farmers (even those making hundreds of thousands of dollars from government subsidies) don't like government personnel on their property. I've had to face down firearms with a plastic badge several times.

Did the plastic work? *L*

Well, I'm still here...

Is that a proven "fact"? *chuckle*

[Flick Montana]

Is that a proven "fact"? *chuckle*

It's an observed datum. Now we just need to discuss the meaning of "here".

[babe]

Is that a proven "fact"? *chuckle*

It's an observed datum. Now we just need to discuss the meaning of "here".

Well that is always an interesting er ......concept!

I am here?

Are you here?

Is he coming here?

Why are you here?