Thread: Tires "Shot-Out"

This is another of my "lifelong imponderables":

Cops and robbers have often depicted fleeing vehicles' tires being shot out. Does it work?

Long ago, one of my favorite firearms experts wrote an article devoted to this. He explained that many factors affected penetration, or "bounce-off", of tires by bullets. In general, handgun rounds will NOT penetrate the tread area of a rapidly spinning tire, especially if angled entry in direction of rotation occurs. Higher-velocity handgun rounds, like .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum, will, however, nearly always penetrate a rotating sidewall.

High-velocity rifle rounds travelling, say, > 2,000 feet per second, will ALWAYS penetrate tread OR sidewall.

So he said. What say you? jocular

I think I'm putting the rounds into the hood instead, or lights if it's night time.

Originally Posted by shlunka

I think I'm putting the rounds into the hood instead, or lights if it's night time.

What if the damn vehicle is cruisin' down a miles-long grade? Flat tires stop it, but..........WTH does no lights get, in daylight? (Ticket for failure of DRL?) (Daytime Running Lights).

jocular

A .44 Mag isn't that much higher in muzzle velocity than, say, a Glock (~ 400 m/ sec).
I can't think of any (modern) "high velocity" rifle rounds that are as slow as 2,000 fps (~600 m/ sec) - they're usually approaching the 1 km/ sec figure.
And, for your consideration...
On our dept. this is authorized only if Garner VS. Tennessee applies (deadly force/fleeing felon law), but in general, firing at a moving vehicle is strongly discouraged. In the event that it does become necessary to shoot out tires, the recommendation is the dept. shotgun /w 00 buck.

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by shlunka

I think I'm putting the rounds into the hood instead, or lights if it's night time.

What if the damn vehicle is cruisin' down a miles-long grade? Flat tires stop it, but..........WTH does no lights get, in daylight? (Ticket for failure of DRL?) (Daytime Running Lights).

jocular

Er, missed a significant part of the post Jocular?

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by shlunka

I think I'm putting the rounds into the hood instead, or lights if it's night time.

What if the damn vehicle is cruisin' down a miles-long grade? Flat tires stop it, but..........WTH does no lights get, in daylight? (Ticket for failure of DRL?) (Daytime Running Lights).

jocular

There's no way in hell I could hit the tires on a fast moving vehicle with a handgun, with the hood/headlights at least I have several chances and easier targets "assuming the vehicle is heading towards me."

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

A .44 Mag isn't that much higher in muzzle velocity than, say, a Glock (~ 400 m/ sec).
I can't think of any (modern) "high velocity" rifle rounds that are as slow as 2,000 fps (~600 m/ sec) - they're usually approaching the 1 km/ sec figure.
And, for your consideration...
On our dept. this is authorized only if Garner VS. Tennessee applies (deadly force/fleeing felon law), but in general, firing at a moving vehicle is strongly discouraged. In the event that it does become necessary to shoot out tires, the recommendation is the dept. shotgun /w 00 buck.

Yeah but I get to say "Do you feel lucky?" before I squeeze off several rounds of .44 ammunition.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

A .44 Mag isn't that much higher in muzzle velocity than, say, a Glock (~ 400 m/ sec). Excuse me, what CALIBER Glock pistol? .44 Mag w/160 gr. bullets EASILY does 1800 fps, faster than an M-1 Carbine rifle round by a good margin.
I can't think of any (modern) "high velocity" rifle rounds that are as slow as 2,000 fps (~600 m/ sec) - they're usually approaching the 1 km/ sec figure. Note, I said GREATER THAN 2,000 fps...
And, for your consideration...
On our dept. this is authorized only if Garner VS. Tennessee applies (deadly force/fleeing felon law), but in general, firing at a moving vehicle is strongly discouraged. In the event that it does become necessary to shoot out tires, the recommendation is the dept. shotgun /w 00 buck.

But, yes, (apologize), I missed the at night. I work without the benefit of hearing, speech, and sight, and my sense of smell is going haywire, too, at 71..... jocular

Edit: Glock Model 21 (.45 ACP) muzzle velocity is way below sonic, ~ 800 fps. with 230 grain bullet. Hell, you can SEE the bullet's path if fired horizontally across a big field. BTW, Space Shuttles had to achieve speed of approx. 50 times that of .45 ACP to achieve Earth orbit!

Jocular, you are an awesome 71 year old.

Originally Posted by shlunka

Jocular, you are an awesome 71 year old.

Hell, my Edit hasn't come up; you'll likely change your mind if it does! Thanks, though. A vote of confidence does wonders for an old fart! jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

Excuse me, what CALIBER Glock pistol? .44 Mag w/160 gr. bullets EASILY does 1800 fps, faster than an M-1 Carbine rifle round by a good margin.

Glock:
375 m/s (1,230 ft/s) (Glock 17, Glock 17C, Glock 18, Glock 18C)

Edit: Glock Model 21 (.45 ACP) muzzle velocity is way below sonic, ~ 800 fps. with 230 grain bullet. Hell, you can SEE the bullet's path if fired horizontally across a big field.

Hmm...
it varies

185 gr (12 g) Bonded Defense	1,225 ft/s (373 m/s)	616 ft·lbf (835 J)
185 gr (12 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP	1,050 ft/s (320 m/s)	453 ft·lbf (614 J)
200 gr (13 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP +P	1,080 ft/s (330 m/s)	518 ft·lbf (702 J)
230 gr (15 g) Federal Hydra-Shok	900 ft/s (270 m/s)	414 ft·lbf (561 J)
230 gr (15 g) US Army Ball FMJ	830 ft/s (250 m/s)	352 ft·lbf (477 J)
Test barrel length: 5 in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by jocular

Excuse me, what CALIBER Glock pistol? .44 Mag w/160 gr. bullets EASILY does 1800 fps, faster than an M-1 Carbine rifle round by a good margin.

Glock:
375 m/s (1,230 ft/s) (Glock 17, Glock 17C, Glock 18, Glock 18C)

Edit: Glock Model 21 (.45 ACP) muzzle velocity is way below sonic, ~ 800 fps. with 230 grain bullet. Hell, you can SEE the bullet's path if fired horizontally across a big field.

Hmm...
it varies

185 gr (12 g) Bonded Defense	1,225 ft/s (373 m/s)	616 ft·lbf (835 J)
185 gr (12 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP	1,050 ft/s (320 m/s)	453 ft·lbf (614 J)
200 gr (13 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP +P	1,080 ft/s (330 m/s)	518 ft·lbf (702 J)
230 gr (15 g) Federal Hydra-Shok	900 ft/s (270 m/s)	414 ft·lbf (561 J)
230 gr (15 g) US Army Ball FMJ	830 ft/s (250 m/s)	352 ft·lbf (477 J)
Test barrel length: 5 in

.45 ACP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please, your point of including a table of published bullet comparisons is.....? I chose to use figures stored mentally, regarding that particular caliber, but am happy to accept your data. Yes, velocity varies with many factors, most influencing being bullet weight. Such data, in order to be comparatively reasonable, must be compiled using loads which produce approximately equal peak developed burning pressures; the .45 ACP round is loaded to about 1/2 the pressure level, at maximum safe loadings, of, say, the .357 Magnum, or .44 Magnum, whose pressures approach those of high-powered rifle rounds. The earlier-developed calibers, such as .38 Special, .380 Auto, .45 ACP, and such, COULD be loaded to higher pressures today, given the substantially higher strength and quality of firearms construction materials. Obviously, however, they are not, as ammunition makers must consider the possibility of user-possession of very old firearms.

A bit off-thread by now, would you not agree? Perhaps modern tire construction materials and methods could be considered, in forming some conclusions. Would presence of steel belts in tires affect their resistance to bullet penetration? I personally know that, in repairing tires (tubeless type) by inserting plugs, steel belts are more resistant to entry by the insertion needle, even though a puncture already exists.

Since your location is shown as UK, I wonder whether firearms restrictions preclude your having gained personal experience along the lines of ballistics, favored arms, etc.? jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

Please, your point of including a table of published bullet comparisons is.....?

Oh let's see...
To show that Glocks use MORE than just the 45 ACP, for one - and therefore that my comment that the muzzle velocity is ~400 m/ sec.
Etc.

Since your location is shown as UK, I wonder whether firearms restrictions preclude your having gained personal experience along the lines of ballistics, favored arms, etc.? jocular

Personal experience limited? Sure.
Then again...
Who has a better "knowledge"?
The guy who uses them or the guy who designs them?

You are evidently, then, a fan of the Glock products. There I have no difficulty with, except to say, I am a fan of them all! jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

You are evidently, then, a fan of the Glock products.

I have no idea how you got that idea.
I used Glock as an example that a V₀ of ~400 m/ sec isn't confined to 44 mag.
How about the FN FiveseveN? 500-600 m/ sec.
Would that "kill a tyre"?

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

......Would that "kill a tyre"?

Thank you for reminding me of another of the "falsehoods" foisted on the average person, the "slashing" of a tire, usually done maliciously, of course. Did you ever try to cut up a tire? Puncture, yes, easy, cut up? Try a sharp knife, hacksaw, hammer & chisel, etc. Chainsaw, maybe. jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

A .44 Mag isn't that much higher in muzzle velocity than, say, a Glock (~ 400 m/ sec). Excuse me, what CALIBER Glock pistol? .44 Mag w/160 gr. bullets EASILY does 1800 fps, faster than an M-1 Carbine rifle round by a good margin.
I can't think of any (modern) "high velocity" rifle rounds that are as slow as 2,000 fps (~600 m/ sec) - they're usually approaching the 1 km/ sec figure. Note, I said GREATER THAN 2,000 fps...
And, for your consideration...
On our dept. this is authorized only if Garner VS. Tennessee applies (deadly force/fleeing felon law), but in general, firing at a moving vehicle is strongly discouraged. In the event that it does become necessary to shoot out tires, the recommendation is the dept. shotgun /w 00 buck.

But, yes, (apologize), I missed the at night. I work without the benefit of hearing, speech, and sight, and my sense of smell is going haywire, too, at 71..... jocular

Edit: Glock Model 21 (.45 ACP) muzzle velocity is way below sonic, ~ 800 fps. with 230 grain bullet. Hell, you can SEE the bullet's path if fired horizontally across a big field. BTW, Space Shuttles had to achieve speed of approx. 50 times that of .45 ACP to achieve Earth orbit!

You are a fabulous, fun and intelligent 71 year old!!! Congrats on being a special old fart! (just kidding about the last word!)

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

......Would that "kill a tyre"?

Thank you for reminding me of another of the "falsehoods" foisted on the average person, the "slashing" of a tire, usually done maliciously, of course. Did you ever try to cut up a tire? Puncture, yes, easy, cut up? Try a sharp knife, hacksaw, hammer & chisel, etc. Chainsaw, maybe. jocular

I have had two experiences now due to LAVA not nails or anything else...hit a piece of lava the wrong way and you will have a hole in your tire. Have had this occur 4 times now....and I wasn't 4 wheeling in the one vehicle.

Originally Posted by babe

.... You are a fabulous, fun and intelligent 71 year old!!! Congrats on being a special old fart! (just kidding about the last word!)

Why, I thank you for the kind words! In view of my provocative, beligerant, and demanding attitude (all a ploy), forum response is usually quite negative in response to my drivel. And (Ha!), you haven't been close enough to smell me! jocular

Oh, I don't know... Is calling a grown man "fabulous" a kind word?

He-Man's Fabulous Secret Powers!! - YouTube

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by babe

.... You are a fabulous, fun and intelligent 71 year old!!! Congrats on being a special old fart! (just kidding about the last word!)

Why, I thank you for the kind words! In view of my provocative, beligerant, and demanding attitude (all a ploy), forum response is usually quite negative in response to my drivel. And (Ha!), you haven't been close enough to smell me! jocular

Spraying you with FEBREEZE!!!

This place is getting too personal for me.....I'm going swimming! jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

......Would that "kill a tyre"?

Thank you for reminding me of another of the "falsehoods" foisted on the average person, the "slashing" of a tire, usually done maliciously, of course. Did you ever try to cut up a tire? Puncture, yes, easy, cut up? Try a sharp knife, hacksaw, hammer & chisel, etc. Chainsaw, maybe. jocular

A good sharp knife will go through a side wall with no problem, and the pop is loud enough to be heard inside a house if the car is right out front. Anyway if I had to try and stop a car, I think a few shots into the radiator would do the job. You don't get to far when you are over heating.

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

Anyway if I had to try and stop a car, I think a few shots into the radiator would do the job.

I say we take off and nuke it from from orbit.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

Anyway if I had to try and stop a car, I think a few shots into the radiator would do the job.

I say we take off and nuke it from from orbit.

The nuking from orbit might have considerable collateral damage. I was hoping for a little fun without knocking off a large neighborhood.

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

The nuking from orbit might have considerable collateral damage.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

I was hoping for a little fun without knocking off a large neighborhood.

They're probably guilty of something...

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

The nuking from orbit might have considerable collateral damage.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

I was hoping for a little fun without knocking off a large neighborhood.

They're probably guilty of something...

Well if your human, by default you have to carry a lot of baggage. It's really tough to grow up without being guilty of something.

While we are still on the subject of shooting up cars. You always see cops hiding behind car doors when shooting at bad guys that are shooting back with machine guns. I just wouldn't feel to safe behind a car door even with just hand guns firing at me, let a lone machine guns or rifles. I guess that's why I never became a cop, they just never seemed to bright to me.

Plating is added to interceptor doors.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Plating is added to interceptor doors.

What kind of plating and how many cop cars might have it installed? Probably only good for pistol fire even so?

Okay how about those car chase scenes where they shoot 1000's of rounds in to a car or truck and it just keeps on coming?

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Plating is added to interceptor doors.

What kind of plating and how many cop cars might have it installed? Probably only good for pistol fire even so?

I dunno...

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

Okay how about those car chase scenes where they shoot 1000's of rounds in to a car or truck and it just keeps on coming?

Those are movies.

Pop a hole in the radiator and the vehicle will get sluggish in short order and overheat not long after.

For all that trouble- I'd just shoot the driver.

Having adequately cooled off after my swim, I have read the ensuing posts (grin), and must mention that my original purpose was to solicit thought about whether or not bullets penetrated tires. Stopping the vehicle hadn't entered my mind, though it is a logical conclusion to the question; thank you for all seeing what I did not.

" Did you ever try to cut up a tire?" Please note my own quote: Cut up means cut into pieces. Very difficult, especially with steel belts. A good scratch awl will easily penetrate a tire sidewall with heavy palm pressure, I've done this to a few poor bastards who deserved it, but cutting a sidewall through the cords with a good sharp knife, well, it's difficult. A moot point, anyway.

As an aside, I recall long ago, my Dad remarking that Smith & Wesson after developing their .357 Magnum caliber, widely advertised for benefit of police that it would penetrate a cast iron engine block. Many years later, always remembering that idea, outside of Vegas we came upon a rusted-out Chevy, the engine in which I put to the test! All I had was my newly-acquired Ruger Super Blackhawk, cal. .44 Magnum. Thin section of the crankcase, no problem, hole through to water jacket. Cylinder head, no luck. BTW, how the hell do you guys figger on shooting through the radiator of a fleeing vehicle, without having to first penetrate the entire length of the damn car? Usually, radiators are up-front? jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

BTW, how the hell do you guys figger on shooting through the radiator of a fleeing vehicle, without having to first penetrate the entire length of the damn car? Usually, radiators are up-front? jocular

If in front of the vehicle.
If fleeing, I'd aim to hit the fuel tank as many times as I could. If lucky, it might knock out the fuel pump. If not, they'll run out of fuel in short order.

Originally Posted by PhDemon

Are you quoting Ripley or Hicks?

That line was neither in any Alien movie, nor did it contain hillbilly "hick" dialog. Try again.

Originally Posted by shlunka

Originally Posted by PhDemon

Are you quoting Ripley or Hicks?

That line was neither in any Alien movie, nor did it contain hillbilly "hick" dialog. Try again.

You need to re-watch "Aliens."

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by shlunka

Originally Posted by PhDemon

Are you quoting Ripley or Hicks?

That line was neither in any Alien movie, nor did it contain hillbilly "hick" dialog. Try again.

You need to re-watch "Aliens."

No.

Yes. That's an order, son. Do not defy me.

Originally Posted by shlunka

That line was neither in any Alien movie, nor did it contain hillbilly "hick" dialog. Try again.

Only because we're talking about a car and not an industrial site.
Aliens - I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit - YouTube

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by shlunka

That line was neither in any Alien movie, nor did it contain hillbilly "hick" dialog. Try again.

Only because we're talking about a car and not an indistrial site.
Aliens - I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit - YouTube

Aliens doesn't count! Cause cause cause, I said "Alien" movie, and "Aliens" is plural, excluding it from all the other "Alien" movies.

Originally Posted by jocular

A good scratch awl will easily penetrate a tire sidewall with heavy palm pressure, I've done this to a few poor bastards who deserved it,

I thought perhaps some may be interested in how this came about, lest I be heretofore thought of as some kind of maniac! I worked in Maintenance for Sears Roebuck in the '80s, large Metro store in Phoenix, with a Sears Auto Center remotely located, to which I was called one summer evening, just before sunset. As I stood by the outer ring road waiting for a car to pass by, just a few feet in front of me, as it did, I saw several young men inside and instantly, perfectly timed, one's hand reached out of a back window clutching a large soft drink which was thrown in my face as the car passed by! I swore, checked my eyes, no pain, it could have been any kind of liquid, I thought quickly, raised my fist, then watched as the vehicle turned in to a lane of parked cars halfway down to the other end of the mall. I walked over, checked, sure enough, they had parked to go in to an arcade of some type.

I walked back to our shop, retrieved a good scratch awl, returned to their car, by then nearly dark, just before the parking lot lights turned on, I meandered my way among the cars, being certain I was not observed, bent low next to the offensive car, and proceeded to press the awl home through one of the sidewalls, hoping an explosively loud sound did not occur; it simply went psssst. Encouraged, and hell-bent to do a good job, I gave each of the four tires at least 10 or more jabs, left the scene, but curious, drove my own car there about 30 minutes later. There were the young men, sitting on the hood and front fenders, presumably awaiting "Daddy" to bail them out. They could not possibly recognize me as I drove by.

Next day, I told my boss about the incident. He at first half-smiled, then grew very serious as it dawned on him the possible gravity of consequences. Nothing came of it. Those young men, I'm certain, very likely figured out why they were singled out, and perhaps learned a very adult lesson from their foolishness. What if they HAD been malicious, and threw something caustic instead of soda pop and ice? jocular

The beauty of a steam engine- You can't slash tires. Or shoot them out.

just drive them I in lava.....you will have an amazing flat tire.....even if you drove it there 100 times....one time...one jagged piece of lava..you're tire is toast...done it

Jocular....good Samaritan sir!

Originally Posted by babe

Jocular....good Samaritan sir!

This I should most excitedly enjoying hearing explained in detail, but not publicly! Do you say I did a good thing, inconveniencing those poor young guys? Most of today's "politically correct" individuals would brand me a crminal. All I can say to them, is, awww, shit!.......... jocular

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by babe

Jocular....good Samaritan sir!

This I should most excitedly enjoying hearing explained in detail, but not publicly! Do you say I did a good thing, inconveniencing those poor young guys? Most of today's "politically correct" individuals would brand me a crminal. All I can say to them, is, awww, shit!.......... jocular

I give a horse's patooty in regards to politically correct...I am NEVER politically correct and the horse's patooty and I are quite happy in that regard. I call it as I see it...You did all right by the boys...in that story..

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by babe

Jocular....good Samaritan sir!

This I should most excitedly enjoying hearing explained in detail, but not publicly! Do you say I did a good thing, inconveniencing those poor young guys? Most of today's "politically correct" individuals would brand me a criminal. All I can say to them, is, awww, shit!.......... jocular

I think you showed restraint as you could have scratched some choice words into the paint and windshield, which most likely would have been very irritating for several weeks.

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

Originally Posted by jocular

Originally Posted by babe

Jocular....good Samaritan sir!

This I should most excitedly enjoying hearing explained in detail, but not publicly! Do you say I did a good thing, inconveniencing those poor young guys? Most of today's "politically correct" individuals would brand me a criminal. All I can say to them, is, awww, shit!.......... jocular

I think you showed restraint as you could have scratched some choice words into the paint and windshield, which most likely would have been very irritating for several weeks.

You mess with my car, ya mess with me....then again....the lady who totaled me and my restored Porsche......never mind...I might cuss or something.