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Thread: Why do we never help other sapients?

  1. #1 Why do we never help other sapients? 
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    We build our empire and help ourselves . But we never cooperate with other sapient species. In the case of elephants ,rather than make a pidgin ,we taught them a few words of our language then treated them like slaves. Why?


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    A lot of reasons spring to mind. For a very long time, Humanity has fully believed that it was created as master over all other life.
    Dolphins, elephants, whales and many birds are still "inferior" and worthy of slavery and death and it amazes me that even the scientifically minded of our crowd still cannot shake the ancient and primitive superstitions when it comes to animals.
    Only those scientists that work closely with these animals seem to be open to really understanding their worth.


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    Yeah,but why still now?Of all the fanatic anti-abortionists how many oppose elephant slavery? Very very few. Yet a elephant is certainly more sapient than an ambles and that functionally is equilavent to a zygote
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    Quote Originally Posted by United multiverse View Post
    We build our empire and help ourselves . But we never cooperate with other sapient species. In the case of elephants ,rather than make a pidgin ,we taught them a few words of our language then treated them like slaves. Why?
    We do cooperate with many species, like dogs (where we are usually in charge) and cats (where they are usually in charge).

    We couldn't create a pidgin with any other animals because no other animals are capable of language (even if they are able to learn a few words).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by United multiverse View Post
    We build our empire and help ourselves . But we never cooperate with other sapient species. In the case of elephants ,rather than make a pidgin ,we taught them a few words of our language then treated them like slaves. Why?
    We do cooperate with many species, like dogs (where we are usually in charge) and cats (where they are usually in charge).

    We couldn't create a pidgin with any other animals because no other animals are capable of language (even if they are able to learn a few words).
    Last sentence could be a bit less vague. Chimps have been known to learn over 100 words in sign language. Most sapient species of animals also have a huge vocabulary in their own right, such as whales, whose exact number of communicative sounds eludes me.
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    I had a cat who patiently tried to teach me cat language
    roughly many variations on meow---eg meeeeeeow, meow, meooooowww, meow(shrunk to where it sounds like now), maybe a few dozen variations with extended consonants and/or vowels, and various emphasis on dipthongs.

    After her kind tutelage, I was able to call the cats in at night(the meow that sounds like now--repeated 3 times very quickly), or call them to the food dish, or call them over for a bit of petting. I also understand some of what they want, and try to encourage them to "speak up".

    .............
    being as we are the supposedly intelligent species, maybe it is encumbent upon us to learn their languages, rather than forcing them to learn a few command words from out languages?
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Last sentence could be a bit less vague. Chimps have been known to learn over 100 words in sign language.
    Maybe (it is debatable) but they very obviously do not use them grammatically. They make utterances like, "food food me banana me you banana banana food me peanuts me". In other words, they do not have the ability to use language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by United multiverse View Post
    We build our empire and help ourselves . But we never cooperate with other sapient species. In the case of elephants ,rather than make a pidgin ,we taught them a few words of our language then treated them like slaves. Why?
    Why would you expect us to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by United multiverse View Post
    We build our empire and help ourselves . But we never cooperate with other sapient species. In the case of elephants ,rather than make a pidgin ,we taught them a few words of our language then treated them like slaves. Why?
    Cooperation requires a common goal. In a modern context, our (humans and other sapient species) goals are very different. Humans seek progress through education and manipulation of it's environment primarily for our enjoyment, reproduction, and survival within societies of our own making. Sapient animals however to my limited knowledge function in their own niche and care neither for our entertainment nor share our hunger for knowledge of the world for further manipulation of it in the same world that both they and we share.

    The level of environment manipulation that we are accustomed to does not seem to coincide with what other sapient species have displayed themselves to care for or capable of doing. Cooperation with such vast(?) differences is extremely unlikely if at all possible. Besides, we have developed machinery that are capable of performing what domesticated/trained animals used to do for us. Now, I'm not saying that I fancy us treating them the way we have, but it is how it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Last sentence could be a bit less vague. Chimps have been known to learn over 100 words in sign language.
    Maybe (it is debatable) but they very obviously do not use them grammatically. They make utterances like, "food food me banana me you banana banana food me peanuts me". In other words, they do not have the ability to use language.
    But...that's how I talk....
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Last sentence could be a bit less vague. Chimps have been known to learn over 100 words in sign language.
    Maybe (it is debatable) but they very obviously do not use them grammatically. They make utterances like, "food food me banana me you banana banana food me peanuts me". In other words, they do not have the ability to use language.
    But...that's how I talk....
    The way I understood it is that American sign language is comparatively more simple than spoken language, because while it has limited vocabulary, the entire way of presenting the word inflects its meaning. So that in essence even a human speaking ASL would also literally say " me want banana" because a single sign can represent a plethora of words depending on how it is used in context. I could be wrong though, I will see what I can find online. NF and I were discussing between us a very similar topic and I wish I had looked it up then but we started going off on tangents.
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    Cooperation requires a common goal.
    A common goal doesn't need to be grand or intellectual. It can be simply getting along with each other or staying out of each other's way or dividing up resources (or access to them).
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    It can be simply getting along with each other or staying out of each other's way or dividing up resources (or access to them).
    You will hear no disagreements from me if I represent and can speak for the entire human race, but sadly I am unable to. If by chance a two-way dialogue is established, and disagreements that surfaces can't be resolved, what then? Do herbivores speak for the carnivores or vice versa? This is of course all extremely simplified to think that other species have "representatives" that speaks for all of their own kind. Who amongst our many many societies/nations/culture/private commercial or non-profit entities/etc. will speak for us in these inter-species talks/negotiations?

    I hope the above do not come across as semi-rant, because it was not intended as such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by United multiverse View Post
    We build our empire and help ourselves . But we never cooperate with other sapient species. In the case of elephants ,rather than make a pidgin ,we taught them a few words of our language then treated them like slaves. Why?
    Why would you expect us to?
    Oh I don't know they are only intelligent and have objectives too
    Last edited by Harold14370; May 26th, 2013 at 07:20 AM.
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    But why not try to establish talks?
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    Quote Originally Posted by United multiverse View Post
    But why not try to establish talks?
    Because they can't talk?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    The way I understood it is that American sign language is comparatively more simple than spoken language, because while it has limited vocabulary, the entire way of presenting the word inflects its meaning
    Absolutely not. Sign languages are as grammatically rich and complex as any other human language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by United multiverse View Post
    But why not try to establish talks?
    It would be lovely indeed if we tried to get along with all the other organisms on this planet but we compete for resources and thats not a good basis for a loyal friendship. But there are people out there doing everything they can to ensure everything gets treated properly - the World Wildlife Fund for example. You seem to feel passionately about elephants - why dont you play a small part in their conservation? It doesnt have to be hugely time consuming or costly (I proof-read leaflets and things for charities for free) but getting involved and helping others make a difference is the best way I know of allaying some of the horror that is felt at some people's actions towards animals.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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  20. #19  
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    There may actually be an animal that does not communicate with it's kind, but i ain't found one yet.
    so
    Take intraspecies communication as a given. And, build from that.
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    There may actually be an animal that does not communicate with it's kind, but i ain't found one yet.
    so
    Take intraspecies communication as a given. And, build from that.
    basic communication is one thing. we communicate across species on a regular basis in very basic ways. we can communicate when we are feeling threatened or intending to threaten another and we often communicate affection and concern for one another (between pets and owners) There are also animals that work with and for humans through intricate communication techniques. We train our pets, unless you have cats, in that your cats train you.

    But to suggest "talks" implies detailed conversation and maybe even diplomatic discussion. I don't think we will ever learn how to communicate anything further than basic emotional/physiological intent/desire and basic trained command methods across species. There are too many species that simply communicate through methods that our bodies are simply not able to detect or emulate.

    I do think the person who said "talks" though isn't a native English speaker so maybe that isn't what they really intended to mean.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    ... There are too many species that simply communicate through methods that our bodies are simply not able to detect or emulate.

    I do think the person who said "talks" though isn't a native English speaker so maybe that isn't what they really intended to mean.
    our bodies, maybe "no" but we do have technology
    i understood "talk" as "communicate"
    and that, as I said, is incumbent upon us

    .............basic research babe
    trying to communicate may just be a wasted effort, but we won't know if we don't try
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    ... There are too many species that simply communicate through methods that our bodies are simply not able to detect or emulate.

    I do think the person who said "talks" though isn't a native English speaker so maybe that isn't what they really intended to mean.
    our bodies, maybe "no" but we do have technology
    i understood "talk" as "communicate"
    and that, as I said, is incumbent upon us

    .............basic research babe
    trying to communicate may just be a wasted effort, but we won't know if we don't try
    I took "talks" in full context of the thread as well as how the word is commonly used. Usually holding talks is in reference to having some diplomacy meeting. For example "Peace Talks"

    "basic research babe"..... being an incomplete sentence (not intending to pick on you here) leaves me unsure how to interpret your meaning (which could then, even if erroneously be interpreted as a clever way of calling someone dimwitted). Are you suggesting that I should do simple research to understand your point, or are you just suggesting that simple research is all that is needed to learn how to communicate with animals.

    My point being, that even when there is a common language being used, effective communication is more often than not a huge challenge.

    As far as trying to communicate is concerned I think there is plenty of research using the technology you speak of in efforts to be able to communicate with animals. But being able to communicate basic concepts vs having intricate discussions of diplomacy are two different things. As observed on this forum alone, there are many humans that find diplomatic talks to be beyond their scope of ability.
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  24. #23  
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    oops clarity:
    I meant basic research vs applied research;
    as in basic research into exo-human communication between both flora and fauna
    Remember that one of my degrees is in psyc.; so I erroneously assume that everyone uses the lexicon the same way as is done in that dicipline. oops

    as/re:
    My point being, that even when there is a common language being used, effective communication is more often than not a huge challenge.
    AMEN to that
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