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Thread: Infinite Universe

  1. #1 Infinite Universe 
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    If the Universe was never-ending doesn't that suggest that anything could be possible in this "Space"? If so that'd suggest that the Universe could shrink into one single point. Meaning the Universe would no longer be infinite? Also if it were to shrink to a single point wouldn't there be area around this single point? I'd like to know opinions as this theory is hurting my brain.


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  3. #2  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmithDemension View Post
    If the Universe was never-ending doesn't that suggest that anything could be possible in this "Space"?
    No.

    If so that'd suggest that the Universe could shrink into one single point.
    If "anything was possible" then it's also possible for Gordon the Giant Evil Penguin to develop a death ray that destroys the entire universe last Tuesday.
    Judging by a lack of posts with regard to this subject on Facebook I'd have to conclude that it hasn't happened - surely an illustration that "anything" isn't possible.


    Last edited by Dywyddyr; February 12th, 2013 at 03:46 PM.
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  4. #3  
    Ascended Member Ascended's Avatar
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    What you are describing is a theoretical problem with the concept of infinity, really if you dwell on the idea of infinity for any length of time you can come up with all sorts of theoretical problems. Just imagine this for example, if the universe is truely infinte then how about infinite repetition, is there an infine number of Earth copies out there or an infinite number of copies of you or me? Or then perhaps you might well ask could there or should there be infinite variety, why isn't everything totally different from everything else? Why isn't there infinite movement, why is there a maximum speed of travel if there are truely an infinite number of possibilities?. The general point here though is these are all theoretical problems with a theoretical concept, the only way to resolve some of these issues is to create experiments to examine how things really actually work on a physical level.
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    Lol, you may not have seen it being posted on Facebook because people would rather watch a game of Football than do something interesting -.-

    Thank you for the input. This subject has always baffled my brain and will most likely continue to do so until I die.
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    Ascended Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Funnily enough my first real post on this forum a few months ago was to discuss the very same issue, since then I would like to think I've learned a bit here and there and rapidly came to the conclusion that nothing is ever cut and dry, the issues and ideas we are dealing with become more and more complex the more we learn and the deeper we go. But thing is to keep going keep looking for answers, very very slowly things start to come together and it doesn't quite seem so impossible any more. But to cut a long story short, the more you learn the more you'll understand and the more you'll want to learn.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    the more you learn the more you'll understand and the more you'll want to learn.
    Yep, and, unfortunately, the more you'll find there is to learn.
    It's a vicious circle! Some sort of conspiracy, I bet.

    Here's a good reply though - it all depends on "priors".
    Q: In an infinite universe, does everything that’s possible have to happen somewhere? | Ask a Mathematician / Ask a Physicist
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmithDemension View Post
    Lol, you may not have seen it being posted on Facebook because people would rather watch a game of Football than do something interesting -.-

    Thank you for the input. This subject has always baffled my brain and will most likely continue to do so until I die.
    Your still young yet and how you think about infinity will change with time. I'm old and thinking about infinity can be very relaxing from my point of view. The problem with infinity is it's not always an easy subject to talk about with others because they don't all have the same view of the concept and how it can be applied to the reality we live in. A good example might be thinking about the concept of God. Personally I prefer thinking about infinity over a concept I just can't believe in, but the problem of how others think about it is varied by as many people that exist in the world.
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    Yeah you guys are correct. Experience brings further knowledge. I've not always been one to ask the big questions but as time has passed I've became really hungry to know more. The last time I studied any type of Science was in High School. I'd not consider that real knowledge though it's just reading out a book.
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  10. #9  
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    If the universe was infinite in space and time then any event that had already occurred can be repeated again and again with enough time that is allocated/required, but must be confined to the laws of physics.

    If you begin to throw a 6 sided dice and were giving an infinite amount of throws, you’ll eventually roll all 1 to 6 sides. But because of the laws of physics, no matter how may throws you make, you’ll never land on a 7 or more. So with infinity, not everything is possible.

    Is that a simple way of looking at it, or too simplified or indeed, wrong?
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    Ok sorry pineapples but I think that is wrong and here's why, when we are talking about infinity we are talking about a concept, we don't actually know whether it exists or not, so this means we can only really ever speculate about the actual properties it may or may not have, at least until we know one way or the other for sure and we're then able to find ways to test it. So usually when we are talking about infinity as a concept we are trying to relate it to our current understanding of the way the universe works. When doing this we speak of the laws of physics yes, but what we need to remember again also is that physics is based on probabilities, laws as we may refer to them are not immutable. Given infinite time even the most improbable things would not only theoretically become possible but must also theoretically actually occur. Now again given that there are no immutable laws all things become possible even the most unlikely and improbable, so thus eventually you would get your 7 and an 8, 9, 10 and 11 aswell.
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  12. #11  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Now again given that there are no immutable laws all things become possible even the most unlikely and improbable, so thus eventually you would get your 7 and an 8, 9, 10 and 11 aswell.
    That doesn't make sense to me. The numbers have a formal definition. 7 is not in the range 1 to 6 so how could it ever occur even in an infinite number of dice throws?

    There is also the question: how you know there are no immutable laws?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Now again given that there are no immutable laws all things become possible even the most unlikely and improbable, so thus eventually you would get your 7 and an 8, 9, 10 and 11 aswell.
    That doesn't make sense to me. The numbers have a formal definition. 7 is not in the range 1 to 6 so how could it ever occur even in an infinite number of dice throws?

    There is also the question: how you know there are no immutable laws?
    Fair questions, but the way I see it is this, that for a 6 sided dice to change to a 7, 8, 9, 10 or eleven sided dice with no discernible cause is extremely improbable, not impossible.

    Well we don't know anything with absolute certainty, that's why we talk about probabilities. BTW this is only imho, I'm not stating any of it as fact, and indeed if I am in error please do correct me.
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  14. #13  
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    Infinite is not a number, it is an endless repetition of numbers, there are different kinds of infinite but if you are referring to absolute infinite then that seems supremely unlikely. All known interactions in the universe have a set number of probabilities so if the universe was infinite in spatial magnitude and direction then you would get endless repetitions of all you can imagine.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  15. #14  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Fair questions, but the way I see it is this, that for a 6 sided dice to change to a 7, 8, 9, 10 or eleven sided dice with no discernible cause is extremely improbable, not impossible.
    Not what was stated.
    The die (note that's die - the singular of dice - pedantry off) could 1 change into a D7 or higher 2, but Pineapples wrote: If you begin to throw a 6 sided dice and were giving an infinite amount of throws, you’ll eventually roll all 1 to 6 sides. But because of the laws of physics, no matter how may throws you make, you’ll never land on a 7 or more.
    And it is, and will remain (forever), impossible for a normal six sided die to come up with a 7 or higher.

    1 For some unspecified value of "could".
    2 Note to self - get in touch with Lou Zocchi and ask if he's actually invented a D9 yet.
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  16. #15  
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    What Ascended is saying is true, a die that is made up of a certain number of particles and states could spontaneously rearrange itself into a more (or less) sided die. It may also turn into a tiddly wink. In terms of infinitie that would happen quite a lot.
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    I believe that Einstein said something to the effect that a worthwhile new theory in physics had to sound crazy, because if it sounded logical and rational then someone would have thought of it before. My crazy idea is that the dimension of length applies to physical entities only and space, not being a physical entity (ie a vacuum is the absence of physical matter) is not measureable by the dimension 'length' beyond the limits reached by BBT expansion.
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    Well there are a lot of problems in physics at the moment; a lot. Its only inevitable in time that we may have answers but no doubt Quantum Physics will have to evolve as will General Relativity; these both in certain circumstances resolve answers to infinite, not cool man not cool.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SmithDemension View Post
    If the Universe was never-ending doesn't that suggest that anything could be possible in this "Space"?
    No.

    If so that'd suggest that the Universe could shrink into one single point.
    If "anything was possible" then it's also possible for Gordon the Giant Evil Penguin to develop a death ray that destroys the entire universe last Tuesday.
    Judging by a lack of posts with regard to this subject on Facebook I'd have to conclude that it hasn't happened - surely an illustration that "anything" isn't possible.
    If any unlikely event like Evil Gordon destroying the universe was possible due to infinite time and space then wouldn’t that also allow it to be possible for any unlikely event to stop Evil Gordon from destroying the universe from happening, in the first place?

    I'll try not to sleep on that
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  20. #19  
    Forum Senior pineapples's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ok sorry pineapples but I think that is wrong and here's why, when we are talking about infinity we are talking about a concept, we don't actually know whether it exists or not, so this means we can only really ever speculate about the actual properties it may or may not have, at least until we know one way or the other for sure and we're then able to find ways to test it. So usually when we are talking about infinity as a concept we are trying to relate it to our current understanding of the way the universe works. When doing this we speak of the laws of physics yes, but what we need to remember again also is that physics is based on probabilities, laws as we may refer to them are not immutable. Given infinite time even the most improbable things would not only theoretically become possible but must also theoretically actually occur. Now again given that there are no immutable laws all things become possible even the most unlikely and improbable, so thus eventually you would get your 7 and an 8, 9, 10 and 11 aswell.
    I’ve heard the idea entertained that there could be multiverses and each universe could have different properties. For example, one universe could have stronger gravity than our universe, making it impossible for star formation, thus possibly, making conditions impossible for any sort of life to begin. It’s one speculative explanation, in terms of probability, to explain the coincidence that our universe (if there are multiverses) is able to sustain any type of life.

    But I’ve not heard the idea before that a whole universe could change it’s properties after a lengthily period of time. I understand this is speculative but it’s still interesting.

    So my question is this, surly the properties (As in the laws of physics) are immutable/can’t change? Because, if they can, then surly there would be no real order in the universe or we’d observe something like galaxy formations acting unexpectedly different billions of light years away compared to the galaxies much closer to us?
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    So my question is this, surly the properties (As in the laws of physics) are immutable/can’t change? Because, if they can, then surly there would be no real order in the universe or we’d observe something like galaxy formations acting unexpectedly different billions of light years away compared to the galaxies much closer to us?
    More than likely some of the others can explain this much better than I, but the main point is the absolutely massive amount of time involved in the calculations for different proberbilities, one of the reasons for this is the use of Planck constant in the equations which is 6.626068 10-34 m2 kg / s, meaning that the lengths of time that come up for the actual physical properties to change are vast, sometimes well into the trillions of years, which is way older than our universe but not at all a problem given infinite time.
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