Thread: I have a new name for this — Terrorism

A shooting at a Connecticut elementary school Friday left 27 people dead, including 18 children, an official said. Look at the crying kids. Sick, sick sick!

I'm not one for getting upset, but goddammit, what the *&%$#@ is wrong with this country? Does anyone have an idea what's wrong? Is it depression from the economy? Or fears over the creeping global environmental crisis? Too many violent video games? Did mommy not breast feed these wackos? Is there a common thread? Too much fluoride in the drinking water? Anything goes? No one wants to hear the word "no" anymore?

Authorities should be capturing these monsters to see what makes them tick.

Sadly we all live in a world where nutters abound, it seems no country is safe from these kinds of atrocities, we are all just left horrified by the aftermath. I don't really think there are any easy expanations, we all get affected by the economy and enviromental problems, not everyone had the best childhood but most people don't turn into such nut jobs.
We are all just left to ask why and what makes someone do things like that, but yes I certainly agree we should really be working hard to understand and prevent such evil. I would think many of these types do it for notoriety, thats the only motive I could possibly understand and perhaps if this does turn out to be the case if perhaps we were to stop sensationalising such tragic events if these nutters might turn to some other types of publicity stunt to get their notoriety. After commiting such terrible crimes we should never give them the publicity they crave.

These murders happen the world over and the things that commit these atrocities, do not all crave publicity. Dr Harold Shipman here in the UK, very quietly murdered hundreds of patients over many years. Publicity was definitely not his craving, nor video games his failing.

Harold Shipman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mix psychological issues with firearms and sometimes you get this as the outcome.

Seems like this happens every decade or so and the debate on gun control fires up again. It's always hard to say if things like this could have been prevented, what with hindsight being 20/20. But nowadays, with Facepage and Twattle being so prevalent, it does seem as though it is easier than ever to spot the signs of a potential breakdown before it occurs.

Dave Wilson

These murders happen the world over

That just isn't true. Check out Japan's murder rate for starters.

jrmonroe

Authorities should be capturing these monsters to see what makes them tick.

I'd agree that criminals need to be brought to justice. But the USA has a particular problem with violence. The murder rate is completely out of alignment with other wealthy advanced countries - and it has been for a very long time.

In the past 20 years, for instance, the murder rate in the United States has dropped by almost half, from 9.8 per 100,000 people in 1991 to 5.0 in 2009.

US crime rate at lowest point in decades. Why America is safer now. - CSMonitor.com

When you look at the wiki comparative list of countries and click on the "rate" column you'll see that the USA rate is almost 3 times that of Canada or Greece which, in turn, are the highest among the remaining wealthy countries. List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Though the wiki figures really aren't all that reliable as they themselves state. It's hard when different countries have different definitions for what does and doesn't count as murder, added on to the difference in health services which mean that people survive murderous attacks in some countries where that is just not possible in others.

But that doesn't alter the fact that the USA needs to look a bit further than individual psychology to understand its own extraordinary rates of murder and other violence. Most of the rest of the world looks at the gun culture but that's not the whole story. After all, the widespread ownership and casual handling of guns causes as much concern because of its really big effect on the numbers of accidents and suicides as on murders themselves.

Originally Posted by Flick Montana

Mix psychological issues with firearms and sometimes you get this as the outcome.

Seems like this happens every decade or so and the debate on gun control fires up again. It's always hard to say if things like this could have been prevented, what with hindsight being 20/20. But nowadays, with Facepage and Twattle being so prevalent, it does seem as though it is easier than ever to spot the signs of a potential breakdown before it occurs.

Sure, it is a terrible tragedy, and sure to get the anti- and pro- gun forces going at it again. Despite the fact that it is now a cliche', the pro-gun people have it right: "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have them." The nut jobs will find a weapon, be it a gun, or whatever, and use it. No law is going to stop them. Society should stop screwing around with these wackos, and their insanity defense(s), and quickly put them down like a mad dog. Even a nut case might think twice about murder if he knows there is the immediate prospect of meeting his maker when he apprehended.

Originally Posted by efbjr

Originally Posted by Flick Montana

Mix psychological issues with firearms and sometimes you get this as the outcome.

Seems like this happens every decade or so and the debate on gun control fires up again. It's always hard to say if things like this could have been prevented, what with hindsight being 20/20. But nowadays, with Facepage and Twattle being so prevalent, it does seem as though it is easier than ever to spot the signs of a potential breakdown before it occurs.

Sure, it is a terrible tragedy, and sure to get the anti- and pro- gun forces going at it again. Despite the fact that it is now a cliche', the pro-gun people have it right: "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have them." The nut jobs will find a weapon, be it a gun, or whatever, and use it. No law is going to stop them. Society should stop screwing around with these wackos, and their insanity defense(s), and quickly put them down like a mad dog. Even a nut case might think twice about murder if he knows there is the immediate prospect of meeting his maker when he apprehended.

I have to say I tend to agree, If you're a policemen and you've got someone in your sites whose just killed over 70 people like what happened in Norway recently then I don't think to many people are blame him if he takes said nut case out, be doing the world a favour instead of the highly public trial that then gave Anders Behring Breivik a platform to espowse his political views, and after he'd killed 77 people.

But after Dunblane, Amsterdam, France, Norway, Moscow and many many other cases where these nutters just go on a mad rampage killing people you might well argue for more gun control except for the simple that gun controls already exist in many of these countries and the nutters still manage to get hold of them, even if they couldn't they'd just find some other way, there was a case a while back in the UK where a guy just ploughed his car deliberately into a group of people.

Found this as a different take on (this particular) school shooting.

When You Tie Shootings to Mental Illness » Ashley Miller

The right to bear arms may exist, but the vast majority of people do not own or carry them. We have the right to be armed, but most people are not armed.

If most people were, I guarantee you these nutters would not go shooting into crowds of people.

They'd find other ways, such as the Columbine kids that wanted to make the Biggest school Bombing event in history. "Fortunately," those two didn't make their bombs correctly. One was a psychopath and the other was a sociopath. They had deep and involved mental issues.

A large portion of hte problem is the allowance and tolerance that has built up over the years for massive collections of arms, and the lax to very little regulation of what types of arms are legal.

Guns don't kill people


it's those pesky little bullets that leave all the holes out of which the blood flows

Originally Posted by sculptor

Guns don't kill people


it's those pesky little bullets that leave all the holes out of which the blood flows

If not bullets, it'd be something else used. It requires an operator with intent.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by sculptor

Guns don't kill people


it's those pesky little bullets that leave all the holes out of which the blood flows

If not bullets, it'd be something else used. It requires an operator with intent.

Everybody's forgotten gunpowder.

I'm going for my annual mall visit next week, I hope to get out alive.

Remember the old days, when you wished that going out into the wilderness. You went armed, right? Maybe if we all still did, less people would shoot at us.

It really is guns that make the difference. 22 children and one adult were attacked by a man with a knife at a Chinese school this week.

All of them are still alive.

Chinese children injured in knife attack outside primary school | World news | guardian.co.uk

Originally Posted by adelady

It really is guns that make the difference. 22 children and one adult were attacked by a man with a knife at a Chinese school this week.

All of them are still alive.

Chinese children injured in knife attack outside primary school | World news | guardian.co.uk

Ok, I get that. But if he had a bomb, that would have probably killed or injured more people than shooting. And bombings are common, as well.

The attacker will choose the method he thinks will yield the results he wants. I knife does more damage than a toothpick. Yet, the knife is an inanimate object. My point isn't about the gun or the knife or the bomb, but the attacker himself.

Accessability to the implement of choice is not something that should be divorced from the commentary though. The man in China did not have access to a gun or the knowledge of how to build a bomb most likely. So he went with a knife.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Accessability to the implement of choice is not something that should be divorced from the commentary though. The man in China did not have access to a gun or the knowledge of how to build a bomb most likely. So he went with a knife.

Yes, this is true. But, again, if everyone was armed, people wouldn't be too likely to shoot into a crowd that would fight back.

The problem as I see is we permit firearms here, yet people aren't necessarily using that permission.

It's an opinion...- I grew up around firearms, held first one at 7 years old. I was in the military later in life... so my view of firearms is different from those that have little experience with them (Not saying that this does apply to any poster here) and mostly only knows what they read in the newspaper about them.

Plus I'm a bit apocalyptic in my views anyway. I think we coddle and pamper humanity too much- now we're 14.5 billion strong- all demanding to be fed and pampered some more. We have no problem controlling other animals population while we let ours run wildly out of control.

I have also lived around guns all my life, but i have a different opinion. i do understand yours though Neverfly, and i hate to think what i would do if i ever got a hold of this guy. However I don't really think that they care, a lot of them want to die but are too chicken to do it themselves.

If everyone was armed then you have a firefight in a theatre or classroom. It is one thing to shoot on a range and another to shoot when someone is shooting at you. There would be bullets flying everywhere. That is fine on a battle field but in a school, mall, or theatre it will lead to more casualties.

These people pick these spots because they are a soft targets. There is usually not security, there are a lot of children, and a high percentage of women or people distracted by something. They don't attack a hard target like a police station or military base because they know they will not succeed. Despite that, we should not have to make every place a hard target, that is just sad.

IMO these people should be flagged before they commit the crime. We need to prevent the problem before they get to this point. We need to stop cutting back services dealing with mental illness. Counting on the criminal to be deterred is not going to work, counting on them to always take their medication is not going to work, it is clear that they are incapable of making choices that are acceptable. They need a minder that will ensure that medications are taken, that they are behaving appropriately, this needs to happen regardless of social standing, It needs to be universal and mandatory. It amazes me on how many of these people come from middle class or greater homes.

Then when it all goes south, because it will no matter what we do. I take Heinlein's view on this, if they became truly sane would they be able to live with what they did? They should be executed, in a humane way, not because they deserve it, but because it is the right thing to do, despite what we feel.

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

If everyone was armed then you have a firefight in a theatre or classroom. It is one thing to shoot on a range and another to shoot when someone is shooting at you. There would be bullets flying everywhere. That is fine on a battle field but in a school, mall, or theatre it will lead to more casualties.

This is possible, but I also think many criminals are actually kinda cowardly. They like holding all the cards. I think a lot of shoot ups would be prevented, not turn into a firefight, because many don't want to be shot back at even if they are totally fine with doing the shooting.

The way I see it- there will always be violence and people flipping out. I prefer a strong defense. Yeah, things will happen. It's life. But 'no defense' just seems like a crappy option, even if it means that 'some defense' will still not prevent all violence.

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

These people pick these spots because they are a soft targets. There is usually not security, there are a lot of children, and a high percentage of women or people distracted by something. They don't attack a hard target like a police station or military base because they know they will not succeed. Despite that, we should not have to make every place a hard target, that is just sad.

I think if the average person was armed, that wouldn't be a strong effort to make all targets hard targets- it would be quite easy, really.
It's a lot more doable and a lot less expensive and a lot more effective than "victims requiring police." Police take time to respond to an emergency. An armed women is much less likely to be assaulted or raped and the perp less likely to get away if he does attack her. Less harm is likely to happen to her if she's armed.

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

IMO these people should be flagged before they commit the crime. We need to prevent the problem before they get to this point.

Easy to say but very difficult to carry out. Warning signs can easily be missed and with many psychopaths, they hide it well. People are unpredictable, and animalistic- they make threats they have no intention of carrying out. In practice, what you say would be extraordinarily difficult.

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

We need to stop cutting back services dealing with mental illness. Counting on the criminal to be deterred is not going to work, counting on them to always take their medication is not going to work, it is clear that they are incapable of making choices that are acceptable. They need a minder that will ensure that medications are taken, that they are behaving appropriately, this needs to happen regardless of social standing, It needs to be universal and mandatory. It amazes me on how many of these people come from middle class or greater homes.

Oh, I don't know. Shooting back at them effectively solves the problem and is a lot cheaper on society as a whole.

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

Then when it all goes south, because it will no matter what we do. I take Heinlein's view on this, if they became truly sane would they be able to live with what they did? They should be executed, in a humane way, not because they deserve it, but because it is the right thing to do, despite what we feel.

I just covered this above.

Look, I already said I'm a bit apocalyptic on this topic and I realize a lot of people would find my view inhumane. But you know, I think we're doing humanity a big disservice pandering to the concept of a perfection we simply cannot attain.

In nature, undesirables get ostracized from a group. Those that get ostracized don't like that. In our society, we are so sympathetic to those members of society that don't like being treated how they are. Bullying can be cruel and we get... soft.
But you know... I kinda taught my son how to swing a punch...
Thing is, in the long run, we're hurting ourselves by doing this- and we're damaging the entire planet in the process of electing ourselves top dog of the world and jacking up everything for our desires of making trash and sewage of 14 billion people "go away" but it doesn't go away. We are caught up in feeding ourselves and our illusions- a huge demand of energy use to power ipods and stereo surround sound... We're just too many.

Because it's ok to be fat. It's ok to be deformed or mentally ill. We keep them, pander to them, feed them, and let them breed.
What's going to happen to us within 10,000 years? Most intellectuals will admit that they have doubts we will last that long. Especially at the rate we're going.

It's not a pleasant view. Most would reject the very idea right away. But I look around and I see a really unjust and F'ed up world.

Because we F'ed it up trying so hard to believe we're better than everything else- We forgot to be animals where it counts.

I struggle with it, too. I have empathy and sympathy. I stick up for other people... It's just how I am, but I also know that how I am is bad for humanity as a whole. I don't like seeing a fat kid get picked on for being fat. My urge is to beat up the teasers- But I also know that their teasing may be the unpleasant motivation he needs to get up off his butt and start taking care of his health so he can fit in, date a cute girl, have friends... If I beat up those teasing him... I'm enabling him to be satisfied with how he is- and on a personal level, it doesn't seem like a big deal but on the level of society- We have an "Epidemic" where society notices how fat we've gotten. How complacent and quick to rely on others.
It didn't happen over night.

Teach all citizens firearm training. Arm them. Don't enable or coddle- break your own heart if you have to, feeling cruel, but be cruel to be kind.
Sometimes, we all take risks. We need risks. Can't pad the whole world with bubble wrap.

We need to start taking samples of these peoples DNA.

If we can get DNA samples of a large amount of people who do these things.
Theres a good chance one day we would be able to DNA test everyone, and find all the people who are likely to do these things.

Originally Posted by chad

We need to start taking samples of these peoples DNA.

If we can get DNA samples of a large amount of people who do these things.
Theres a good chance one day we would be able to DNA test everyone, and find all the people who are likely to do these things.

Good thinking chad, I bet you would start with Republicans first.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Teach all citizens firearm training. Arm them. Don't enable or coddle- break your own heart if you have to, feeling cruel, but be cruel to be kind.
Sometimes, we all take risks. We need risks. Can't pad the whole world with bubble wrap.

Sounds like Sparta to me. Good call.

Originally Posted by adelady

Dave Wilson

These murders happen the world over

That just isn't true. Check out Japan's murder rate for starters.

.

Check this out Adelady, it happened in Tasmania Australia, in 1996.

" The Port Arthur massacre of 28 April 1996 was a killing spree in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded, mainly at the historic^[1] Port Arthur prison colony, a popular tourist site in south-eastern Tasmania, Australia.^[2] Martin Bryant, a 28-year-old from New Town, a suburb of Hobart, eventually pleaded guilty to the crimes and was given 35 life sentences without possibility of parole.^[3] He is now imprisoned in the Wilfred Lopes Centre near Risdon Prison.<sup>[4] "

Port Arthur massacre (Australia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</sup>

adelady, just for you.

Osaka school massacre Japan, June 8th 2001 eight school children stabbed to death, and thirteen wounded.

Osaka school massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Akihabara massacre Japan, again on June 8th, but in 2008, 7 killed. 10 injured.

Akihabara massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Originally Posted by chad

We need to start taking samples of these peoples DNA.

If we can get DNA samples of a large amount of people who do these things.
Theres a good chance one day we would be able to DNA test everyone, and find all the people who are likely to do these things.

Good thinking chad, I bet you would start with Republicans first.

You might want to reconsider that bet.

Perhaps most of those -------- are democrats.

Check this out Adelady, it happened in Tasmania Australia, in 1996.

And that's why we changed our laws. That was the 7th massacre in Australia in 10 years. We haven't had one since.

Originally Posted by adelady

Check this out Adelady, it happened in Tasmania Australia, in 1996.

And that's why we changed our laws. That was the 7th massacre in Australia in 10 years. We haven't had one since.

Yes, no more massacres as yet, but this dude was shot up in Sydney Australia last month " A man shot up five times during a violent robbery in the car park of a Sydney pub remains in a critical condition, police say " ( The Sydney Morning Herald )

Read more: Sydney shooting: man shot five times in pub car park

Gun crime in Australia is most often about turf wars between criminal gangs nowadays - outlaw motorcycle gangs fighting over drug and security rackets mainly. (This sort of thing - Bikie gang member shot dead in Adelaide .) As well as the more organised, professional criminal bank robberies. There's the occasional domestic violence murder/s if someone has access to guns, since the changes in gun laws that's mainly farming/country families who have legal weapons. But military style weapons are very, very rare, but they were never very common in the first place.

Handguns in Australia are legal for police, security guards and some competitive shooters. Other guns are licensed and strictly controlled for hunters, farmers, feral animal control and not much else. We have had precisely one madman-shooting-random-people incident since 1996 - 2 people were killed. 2 random massacre style deaths in 16 years is fairly good going compared to the many dozens in the previous 10 years.

Here's a few things to put this in perspective about school massacres and gun control.

The Bath School "Disaster" (yes, from 1927)

A knife-wielding man injures 22 school children and one adult

A knife-wielding man enters a police station and murders six police officers and injures four other officers

My conclusions. Knives are extremely easy to manufacture, knives can be purchased by anyone, knives don't require licenses for purchase or ownership, knives don't need to be reloaded, knives don't "jam", knives are silent and don't warn others of attacks in progress, knives don't leave bullets that contain barrel rifling "fingerprints", knives are very difficult to trace, knives don't leave gunpowder residue that's hard to wash off (although blood spatter is an issue), knives require very little practice or aim, etc.



About the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre (and other similar attacks), let me offer an alternative perspective. Besides the massacres, what else happens in the vast majority of these cases? The attacker(s) commit suicide (even if it's so-called "suicide by cop"). Let me posit then that, instead of committing mass murders, these attackers are committing a sophisticated form of suicide. In these sophisticated suicide cases, the person first decides that his/her life is not worth living, and then, s/he decides to also murder others before taking his/her own life.

Most typically, it seems, the motive is revenge against those who have ruined (or who are imagined to have ruined) the person's life.

Alternately, the other victims could be persons with some real (or imagined) similar reasons for dying. For example, a woman murders her children because they are evil (which they supposedly inherited from her) and then kills herself (because she was evil to begin with).

In the Sandy Hook case, if the shooter thought that his mother loved her students more than him, then the motive would be revenge. If the shooter thought that his mother had messed up her school full of kids as she did him by pushing them to succeed academically, then the motive would be "similar reasons for dying" (ie, put them out of their misery now instead of making them suffer for years as he did).

Learning from Sandy Hook and similar cases, one "solution" is not schools-as-fortresses or stricter gun control, but revamping our social attitude toward others — that is, the troubled kid who sits in the back of the class does not get ignored or hated, but instead, receives all sorts sincere positive attention. Same thing with bullying victims. It seems to me that massacre shooters and bullying suicide victims are very similar — one lashes out and the other does not.



Lastly, here are two cases showing that, even though unfathomable school disasters do occur in America, although rarely, life does go on — though I am certainly not downplaying any suffering or death, least of all those of very young students. The New London School Explosion (1937). Our Lady of the Angels School Fire (1958). How quickly we can forget our tragedies. The New London disaster was also the impetus behind laws requiring that "stink" be added to natural gas.

[QUOTE=Neverfly;376756]... ...
Plus I'm a bit apocalyptic in my views anyway. I think we coddle and pamper humanity too much- now we're 14.5 billion strong- all demanding to be fed and pampered some more. ... QUOTE]

woa, dadio
back the truck up and recover the extra 7 billion or so

Originally Posted by chad

Theres a good chance one day we would be able to DNA test everyone, and find all the people who are likely to do these things.

Orwell would be proud.

Originally Posted by sculptor

back the truck up and recover the extra 7 billion or so

Corrected- sorry. Not sure where I got that figure- maybe a time warp.

Here's a site worth saving for reference.

The Americas and African nations are clearly outliers compared to the rest of the world on the general murder/gun ownership figures. There's a bit more detail on the % of gun murders. A couple of European countries with the usual very low murder rates have a high % of those murders by guns (Italy, Switzerland) - but France and Germany with the highest European gun ownership have the 'world standard' very low % of gun murders. Some good material for sociology/criminology people in there.

The gun ownership and gun homicides murder map of the world | News | guardian.co.uk

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

A shooting at a Connecticut elementary school Friday left 27 people dead, including 18 children, an official said. Look at the crying kids. Sick, sick sick!

I'm not one for getting upset, but goddammit, what the *&%$#@ is wrong with this country? Does anyone have an idea what's wrong? Is it depression from the economy? Or fears over the creeping global environmental crisis? Too many violent video games? Did mommy not breast feed these wackos? Is there a common thread? Too much fluoride in the drinking water? Anything goes? No one wants to hear the word "no" anymore?

Authorities should be capturing these monsters to see what makes them tick.

One solution is to keep people in general (and youth and children) can have such easy access to guns long as you have in the USA.

This will not eliminate the cause, but the instrument ... and you make it more difficult.

Depression can not be removed ... but how to manage it in an aggressive, imitation may be due to other actions previously performed.

If this person would have had an atomic bomb ... he'd detonated!

Originally Posted by dapifo

One solution is to keep people in general (and youth and children) can have such easy access to guns long as you have in the USA.

This will not eliminate the cause, but the instrument ... and you make it more difficult.

Depression can not be removed ... but how to manage it in an aggressive, imitation may be due to other actions previously performed.

If this person would have had an atomic bomb ... he'd detonated!

It's a variable- One can argue that good training from an early age is as good a preventative. Primarily from accidents.

I was taught early on what a firearm was and how to handle it safely.

OK..I agree...but always could appear an crazy...it is out of your control... and then if there are not guns...you only can use stones....

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Originally Posted by chad

Theres a good chance one day we would be able to DNA test everyone, and find all the people who are likely to do these things.

Orwell would be proud.

Skip the DNA and just go straight to the bumps on the head measurements. Phrenology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia