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Thread: Is Suicide Unethical?

  1. #1 Is Suicide Unethical? 
    pmb
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    I'm facing a trerrible dilema right now and I wanted to toss this out there to see what other people thing about the ethical ramifications of it.

    Some of you may known that I live with terrible chronic pain. The pain is always between moderate to severe, sometimes becomming extreme. My doctors won't let me take anything strong enough to work. Frankly I that they're a lot of cowards and don't want to accept the responsibility of putting someone on pain killers. I've just about given up. I've had tw surgeries, about 10 epidural injections and every king of pain killer/pain reliever under the sun. The only think that works is oxycontin/oxycodone. Several of my old primary care physiciants let me take it. But they either went into differet fields of practice, retired or claimed that the problem was all in my head. My latest one not onlay won't let me take oxycontin by went to far as to call the ER when I was in horrific pain and tried to get some relief.and he told them not to give me oxycontin/oxycodone. So they chose to give me nothing and sent me on my way. Now I've almost given up. Yesterday afternoon when that happened I reallly gave up and started looking for a tall building which had public asscess to the roof. I wanted to try skydiving without a parachut. I failed to find out so I tried another ER as a last resort kind of thing before I resumed my search for a tall building again. Come to find out that my shink called the ER and told them not to let me taket thos meds too. The bastards kept me there all night long and send me opion my way with the same pain I walked in with.

    Here is what I've decided: I will spend a certain amount of time looking for a new docto who will prescribe the med I was on those years where I was doing every very well with the pain. If I failed then I give in and will quit. I will have found that building by then.

    I think I know what some of you are thinking. You're comparing what I would do with what you believe that you would do and why. You've probably think I'm a coward yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda.

    Since I already know that part let's skip it and actually get into a discussion from both sides of the coin and the Ethics of Suicide. There is actuall a pro and con side to it. Not everybody thinks you're coward if you can't stand that kind of pain for the next 30 years.

    All constuctive criticism welcome. All insults - get lost please.


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  3. #2  
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    Can't really give you advice about suicide, although I think it is a basic human right. Have you tried marijuana for the pain? Sorry to hear you are in pain.


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    Sorry to hear about your situation chap.

    As far as ethics is concerned... I think it's irresponsible to throw yourself on a pathment (sidewalk) becuase some poor fellow will have to scrape your carcass up... it will shock and ruin the days of a few people probably. There has to be a more dignified way.

    Apart from that, if you've settled everything with your loved ones and your conscience, then for me personally I see no reason why it's unethical to end your own life if you must. Do you have kids? a wife? you have to consider how your actions will affect anybody who knows you.

    Surely there is something you can do for the world bmp? surely killing yourself is a waste? you have the courage to face death so why not do something brave that makes the world a better place for others? Go into a church and throw all the treasures around, somthing like that.
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  5. #4  
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    Who among us has not contemplated suicide? Suicide is a right, not a legal privilege!
    For me personally, life has always been a challenge. And my creativity evolves as I face challenges. So, when I have seriously contemplated suicide, the creativity took over, an I saw that as a new challenge, finding a creative way to end it all, without burdening any other human beings. The trick is to be assured of success without added suffering. Jumping was ruled out early on with the thought that if i changed my mind while falling, my last thoughts would be of regret.


    pmb
    what is the source of your pain?
    how creative have you been in seeking to overcome it?
    where are you located?
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  6. #5  
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    I don't know what your health insurance / health service /access arrangements are but I do have one suggestion.

    My doctor referred me to an anaesthetist who is a specialist in pain management / rehabilitation medicine. I don't know how many of these people there are, but many regions/ health services/ hospitals have associated pain management clinics and specialists. This bloke was absolutely brilliant. He gave me 18 glorious pain free months - then I developed the standard reaction of 10% of patients on such opioid drugs and started throwing them up the moment I took them. I'm not prepared to risk the ketamine infusion process which seems to be the last remaining alternative.

    I have no idea whether your problem would be amenable to ketamine treatment (or what it might cost in your circumstances) but it apparently has long-lasting effects for the target set of conditions. A pain management specialist would know what the best options are for your condition/s.

    (I quite understand the impulse to suicide. But I'd never, ever jump off a building or walk in front of trains or traffic - I wouldn't want to be responsible for increasing the burden of PTSD or even injuries or deaths to other people. That is desperately unethical.)
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    Man this thread is heavy... it would be unethical to do it in front of the computor with my posts up on the screen when the police walk in.

    Don't do it man! dont do it! you've got too much to give, somebody think of the children.
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  8. #7  
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    As I have 2 children, a cautionary tale has been a damper on my actions---suicide just may be contagious:

    On July 2, 1961 Ernest Hemingway committed suicide at the age of sixty-one. There have been five suicides in the Hemingway family over four generations -- Hemingway's father, Clarence; siblings Ursula, Leicester and Ernest; granddaughter Margaux. The generation skipped was just barely: Hemingway's youngest son, Gregory, died in 2001 as a transsexual named Gloria, of causes that put a lot of strain on the term "natural."
    Some(most?) of the hurt we leave behind ripples through the people who knew and cared about us.
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  9. #8  
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    Hi old friend!

    There must be doctors who will give you whats necessary... Continue the search!
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    I think anyone who wants to commit suicide should be made to spend a 168 hours in a sensory deprivation tank before being allowed to go ahead, I think you'll find quite a few may change their minds.

    I definately think that would be ethical.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  11. #10  
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    168 hours? 7 days? 1 week?
    no food?
    wow
    I used to meditate by strapping on a set of double scuba tanks, and a weight belt, turn the regulator up so it breathed for me, and just zone out on the bottom of the pool----------couple hours of meditating dream time
    maybe deprivation is like booze, a little is good but a lot------------------?!
    168 hrs, 7 days, 10,080 minutes, 604,800 seconds, 675,360 heartbeats, ...
    WOW
    "...To die, to sleep-- No more--and by a sleep to say we end The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep-- To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub, For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes calamity of so long life. For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely The pangs of despised love, the law's delay, The insolence of office, and the spurns That patient merit of th' unworthy takes, When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscovered country, from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will, And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? ..."
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    pmb
    what is the source of your pain?
    Four herniated disks pluse nerve bunles neard the spinal cord and spinal stenosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    how creative have you been in seeking to overcome it?
    Many many epidural injections, two major surgeries, physical therapy, oxycocone/oxycontin, suboxone. Looked at spinal cord stimulation but wasn't a candidate.

    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    where are you located?
    North of Boston.
    Last edited by pmb; August 10th, 2012 at 02:32 PM.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Hi old friend!

    There must be doctors who will give you whats necessary... Continue the search!
    I have a new doctors appointment on Monday. It appears hopeful. Wish me luck folks.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some(most?) of the hurt we leave behind ripples through the people who knew and cared about us.
    There isn't anybody who'd miss me. When I disappear nobody's life will change at all. My family never talks to me so fuck them. I lost all my friends when I contracted Leukemia. In retrospect I don't think they ever were my friends.
    Last edited by pmb; August 10th, 2012 at 02:36 PM.
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    I have a new doctors appointment on Monday. It appears hopeful. Wish me luck folks.
    Lots, lots of luck.

    And a referral to people who know what they're doing about pain.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some(most?) of the hurt we leave behind ripples through the people who knew and cared about us.
    There isn't anybody who'd miss me. When I disappear nobody's life will change at all. My family never talks to me so fuck them. I lost all my friends when I contracted Leukemia. In retrospectI don't think they ever were my friends.
    Ha! You are wrong there. You will be missed. But ok... We cant be said to be persons close to you.
    But we think you are a nice and friendly person making this a better place!
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    168 hours? 7 days? 1 week?
    no food?
    wow
    I used to meditate by strapping on a set of double scuba tanks, and a weight belt, turn the regulator up so it breathed for me, and just zone out on the bottom of the pool----------couple hours of meditating dream time
    maybe deprivation is like booze, a little is good but a lot------------------?!
    168 hrs, 7 days, 10,080 minutes, 604,800 seconds, 675,360 heartbeats, ...
    WOW
    "...To die, to sleep-- No more--and by a sleep to say we end The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep-- To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub, For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes calamity of so long life. For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely The pangs of despised love, the law's delay, The insolence of office, and the spurns That patient merit of th' unworthy takes, When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscovered country, from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will, And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? ..."

    I think it is immoral/unethical to stop people committing suicide if it is purely on the basis that we don't like it, however that said I think we do have a responsibility to ensure that people have thought through their choice and know what they are doing.

    It is only through loss that we really appreciate what it is that we have, that is why I'm suggesting the sensory deprivation tank, to deprive the person of 'living' for entire week should help them to truely understand the value of life, if then even after this they still wish to kill themselves then who are we to stand in their way.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    168 hours? 7 days? 1 week?
    no food?
    wow
    I used to meditate by strapping on a set of double scuba tanks, and a weight belt, turn the regulator up so it breathed for me, and just zone out on the bottom of the pool----------couple hours of meditating dream time
    maybe deprivation is like booze, a little is good but a lot------------------?!
    168 hrs, 7 days, 10,080 minutes, 604,800 seconds, 675,360 heartbeats, ...
    WOW
    "...To die, to sleep-- No more--and by a sleep to say we end The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep-- To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub, For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes calamity of so long life. For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely The pangs of despised love, the law's delay, The insolence of office, and the spurns That patient merit of th' unworthy takes, When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscovered country, from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will, And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? ..."

    I think it is immoral/unethical to stop people committing suicide if it is purely on the basis that we don't like it, however that said I think we do have a responsibility to ensure that people have thought through their choice and know what they are doing.

    It is only through loss that we really appreciate what it is that we have, that is why I'm suggesting the sensory deprivation tank, to deprive the person of 'living' for entire week should help them to truely understand the value of life, if then even after this they still wish to kill themselves then who are we to stand in their way.
    But one has to admit that theres a limit to how much pain one accepts to endure... Damn them stupid doctors preventing him from having an adequate life! And why do they? To prevent him from addiction? Better dead than a druggie? Ethics???
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    But one has to admit that theres a limit to how much pain one accepts to endure... Damn them stupid doctors preventing p from having an adequate life!
    But of course, just that we should ensure that they know what they are choosing to do and fully understand their decision. We don't want hoards of people killing themselves because they are bored or a bit depressed!
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    168 hours? 7 days? 1 week?
    no food?
    wow
    I used to meditate by strapping on a set of double scuba tanks, and a weight belt, turn the regulator up so it breathed for me, and just zone out on the bottom of the pool----------couple hours of meditating dream time
    maybe deprivation is like booze, a little is good but a lot------------------?!
    168 hrs, 7 days, 10,080 minutes, 604,800 seconds, 675,360 heartbeats, ...
    WOW
    "...To die, to sleep-- No more--and by a sleep to say we end The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep-- To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub, For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes calamity of so long life. For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely The pangs of despised love, the law's delay, The insolence of office, and the spurns That patient merit of th' unworthy takes, When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscovered country, from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will, And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? ..."

    I think it is immoral/unethical to stop people committing suicide if it is purely on the basis that we don't like it, however that said I think we do have a responsibility to ensure that people have thought through their choice and know what they are doing.

    It is only through loss that we really appreciate what it is that we have, that is why I'm suggesting the sensory deprivation tank, to deprive the person of 'living' for entire week should help them to truely understand the value of life, if then even after this they still wish to kill themselves then who are we to stand in their way.
    But one has to admit that theres a limit to how much pain one accepts to endure... Damn them stupid doctors preventing him from having an adequate life! And why do they? To prevent him from addiction? Better dead than a druggie? Ethics???
    What I can't understand is that pmb's dr wont prescribe the drugs... this is anlien to me. I've always thought of dr's as trained pushers for the pharmacutical companies. maybe people are starting to sue too regularly for the damage and suffering they have recieved at the hands of prescription medication.
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  21. #20  
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    What I can't understand is that pmb's dr wont prescribe the drugs...
    Just one more reason that I think all drugs should be legal in a "free market"
    Let the patient decide.
    Who better?
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some(most?) of the hurt we leave behind ripples through the people who knew and cared about us.
    There isn't anybody who'd miss me. When I disappear nobody's life will change at all. My family never talks to me so fuck them. I lost all my friends when I contracted Leukemia. In retrospectI don't think they ever were my friends.
    Hey Pete cheer up quite a few of us would miss you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    What I can't understand is that pmb's dr wont prescribe the drugs...
    Just one more reason that I think all drugs should be legal in a "free market"
    Let the patient decide.
    Who better?
    Who worse? wth do patients know about the workings, effects, consequences of various medications? most patients don't even know what the options are. I always decide to avoid medication like the plague. but I accept one day they might provide much needed relief.

    my father had an addiction to a cocktail of medications... It was very difficult to see the effects they had on him... I'd like to sue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    .... I always decide to avoid medication like the plague. ... .
    Yes, me too. (even vitamin supplements)
    And I would always consult a physician before taking any drug. But the doctors rights and my rights diverge there. I do not agree that we should have to defer to any other person when it comes to our personal decisions. Should I choose to addict myself to opiates, that is my choice, my responsibility, and should be my right.

    and. pete, as/re
    There isn't anybody who'd miss me. When I disappear nobody's life will change at all.
    (anecdotal story)
    Long ago I directed the play Waiting for Godot:wherein, i had on actor sitting at a table with his foot on the table struggling furiously to remove his shoe. As the other actor wandered past, deep in thought, he absentmindedly tugged at the shoelace, untying the knot, whereupon, the first actor removed the shoe with ease. The help was inadvertant and absent minded, but solved an insurmountable problem for his friend.

    One day, you may just be that guy who solves an insurmountable problem without even trying.
    Last edited by sculptor; August 9th, 2012 at 09:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    .... I always decide to avoid medication like the plague. ... .
    Yes, me too. (even vitamin supplements)
    And I would always consult a physician before taking any drug. But the doctors rights and my rights diverge there. I do not agree that we should have to defer to any other person when it comes to our personal decisions. Should I choose to addict myself to opiates, that is my choice, my responsibility, and should be my right.
    Quite right... if the patient is fully aware of consequencies, probabilities of addiction etc, then they can make an informed choice. Most of the drugs in use are so new, not even the pharmecutical companies know about all the effects, let alone doctors, let alone patients. Not long ago they would prescribe heroine cough sweets.
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    I really don't get this fear of patients becoming addicted thing. Personally, I really would not care at all if I became "addicted" to a drug that made my life livable - though you guys would see a lot less of me if I were able to do more of the things I'd like to do. And I think a lot of doctors get really, really mixed up about the difference / similarity between dependence and addiction. But I think for some of us, even if our medication use could technically meet the 'addiction' definition, the mere fact that it makes life with normal-ish movement possible, maybe even enjoyable, makes it very much the lesser of two evils (given that we're counting medication as 'evil' in the first place). And I'd apply the same reasoning to other medications like anti-depressants as well. The misery might not have an obvious physical abnormality driving it, but it's misery nevertheless. (My ever-helpful husband has changed my browser and I seem to have lost the capacity to do paragraphs at the moment - I'll fix it when I get round to it.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I really don't get this fear of patients becoming addicted thing. Personally, I really would not care at all if I became "addicted" to a drug that made my life livable - though you guys would see a lot less of me if I were able to do more of the things I'd like to do. And I think a lot of doctors get really, really mixed up about the difference / similarity between dependence and addiction. But I think for some of us, even if our medication use could technically meet the 'addiction' definition, the mere fact that it makes life with normal-ish movement possible, maybe even enjoyable, makes it very much the lesser of two evils (given that we're counting medication as 'evil' in the first place). And I'd apply the same reasoning to other medications like anti-depressants as well. The misery might not have an obvious physical abnormality driving it, but it's misery nevertheless. (My ever-helpful husband has changed my browser and I seem to have lost the capacity to do paragraphs at the moment - I'll fix it when I get round to it.)
    There will always be a variety of cases...

    If a medication works to return something back to health, then once healthy there would no longer be a dependency. if a dependency remains, then perhaps the medication hasn't actually done its job. which is to return something to health.

    The ethical dillema IMO is: Do you keep people alive even when they are not healthy and cannot support themselves, will put strain on resources, and maybe even want to die. Or do you let nature take it's course? or do you give nature a helping hand? this is a very emotionally 'heavy' dillema.

    The pharmicutical companies want all the sick people alive as long as possible, because they are the best consumers. But if a person wants to go... is it ethical to prolong the agony? is it ethical to refuse them the help they ask for? Is it ethical to keep people alive in a coma for 20yrs when healthy kids in africa will soon be sick because they don't have clean water?

    it's a real mine feild and i'v probably said too much already bearing in mind the nature of this thread... I don't want to influence pmb or interfere with his decisions, but he started this thread so I see no harm in discussing it.

    truth is IMO... whose to say anything is ethical or unethical? ethics is about doing what is best for all. The greatest good to the greatest number I beleive is the utilitarian system of ethics we follow.
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    Long ago and far away, i enjoyed the use of opiates.
    I am basically a very shy introspective individual, prone to contemplation rather than action.
    It has been said that "Certain individuals have been blessed by a complete lack of introspection".
    (flip side) An unexamined life is one not worth living.

    The thing is, that with the use of opiates, I freer, less shy, and was more prone to action and group problem solving.
    Ofttimes, when building or sculpting, the conscious mind ceases the (from carlos castaneda) "internal dialogue", and all worry and second guessing falls away opening the mind and body to a spiritual reunion and union in motion.
    A limited form of that freedom was what I experienced from opiates.
    The downside has left them in my past.
    But if I were in pain, I would like to have the right to revisit them at my discretion, and not at the whim of some unknown bureaucrat with whom I have no direct communication, and much less someone seemingly involved in my health care.

    Where do our individual freedoms conflict with the needs of our polities?
    And why?
    And why is the abrogation of those freedoms acceptable?
    ------------------
    as/re flip side, do you younger people understand what is meant?
    , for example, that on the flip side of telstar was jungle fever?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Long ago and far away, i enjoyed the use of opiates.
    I am basically a very shy introspective individual, prone to contemplation rather than action.
    It has been said that "Certain individuals have been blessed by a complete lack of introspection".
    (flip side) An unexamined life is one not worth living.

    The thing is, that with the use of opiates, I freer, less shy, and was more prone to action and group problem solving.
    Ofttimes, when building or sculpting, the conscious mind ceases the (from carlos castaneda) "internal dialogue", and all worry and second guessing falls away opening the mind and body to a spiritual reunion and union in motion.
    A limited form of that freedom was what I experienced from opiates.
    The downside has left them in my past.
    But if I were in pain, I would like to have the right to revisit them at my discretion, and not at the whim of some unknown bureaucrat with whom I have no direct communication, and much less someone seemingly involved in my health care.

    Where do our individual freedoms conflict with the needs of our polities?
    And why?
    And why is the abrogation of those freedoms acceptable?
    ------------------
    as/re flip side, do you younger people understand what is meant?
    , for example, that on the flip side of telstar was jungle fever?
    If your getting opiates from nature the you have the freedom to do so (except the law against it, which is an ass). When it's a substance that takes other peoples resources to produce... maybe thats when individual rights can justly be limited. Not sure what abrogation means.
    All the drugs we need are in the rain forest, so every person should have the right to take any of those natural substances.
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    If a medication works to return something back to health, then once healthy there would no longer be a dependency. if a dependency remains, then perhaps the medication hasn't actually done its job. which is to return something to health.

    The ethical dillema IMO is: Do you keep people alive even when they are not healthy and cannot support themselves, will put strain on resources, and maybe even want to die. Or do you let nature take it's course? or do you give nature a helping hand? this is a very emotionally 'heavy' dillema.
    "not healthy and cannot support themselves" isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about 'getting by' in extreme pain and/or limited mobility. (by extreme, I mean pain so bad it makes you throw up or unable to move without being physically paralysed.)

    Limited mobility means that you get things done - but fewer of the things you'd like to do and the things you must do take more time and effort than they should - and leave you exhausted for hours or days. We can manage most things most days, nothing at all on other days and a lot less than we'd like on any day.

    There's no such thing as "back to health" for chronic conditions like arthritis or persistent sequelae of injury or disease. Remember a whole lot of conditions now count as chronic that once were regarded as lethal, cancer and diabetes chiefly among them. Are you really suggesting that war veterans or victims of accidents and crimes or cancer survivors or women injured by pregnancy/birth events should simply be abandoned medically?

    And most medications don't "return" people to health. They remedy deficiencies of various kinds - thyroxine and insulin are the classic medications that are usually taken for life - there is no way to 'return' a thyroid or pancreas that's been destroyed by auto-immune disease. They're very much like prosthetics for amputated limbs - they restore normal function without replacing what's been lost.

    I think you need to think your approach through more precisely. Exactly which kind of chronic diseases, conditions, problems do you think should or shouldn't be ameliorated or 'normalised' by medication when the result is to allow a person to live a fairly normal life. Or would you 'select' by kind of person - war veterans and injured mothers yes, silly teenagers and arthritic grannies no.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    it's a real mine feild and i'v probably said too much already bearing in mind the nature of this thread... I don't want to influence pmb or interfere with his decisions, but he started this thread so I see no harm in discussing it.

    truth is IMO... whose to say anything is ethical or unethical? ethics is about doing what is best for all. The greatest good to the greatest number I believe is the utilitarian system of ethics we follow.
    I have a slightly different view on ethics. (Sticking my neck out as usual.) I believe in a natural sense of right and wrong, given to us through evolution. Theres not much wrong in a utilitarian ethics: only the question if it is right to sacrifice somebody for the good of the rest (including oneself) . I mean there are, or might be, cases where its wrong to do what gives the most good to as many as possible. Then , and in the end,we must do what FEELS to be the right thing to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    If a medication works to return something back to health, then once healthy there would no longer be a dependency. if a dependency remains, then perhaps the medication hasn't actually done its job. which is to return something to health.

    The ethical dillema IMO is: Do you keep people alive even when they are not healthy and cannot support themselves, will put strain on resources, and maybe even want to die. Or do you let nature take it's course? or do you give nature a helping hand? this is a very emotionally 'heavy' dillema.
    "not healthy and cannot support themselves" isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about 'getting by' in extreme pain and/or limited mobility. (by extreme, I mean pain so bad it makes you throw up or unable to move without being physically paralysed.)

    Limited mobility means that you get things done - but fewer of the things you'd like to do and the things you must do take more time and effort than they should - and leave you exhausted for hours or days. We can manage most things most days, nothing at all on other days and a lot less than we'd like on any day.

    There's no such thing as "back to health" for chronic conditions like arthritis or persistent sequelae of injury or disease. Remember a whole lot of conditions now count as chronic that once were regarded as lethal, cancer and diabetes chiefly among them. Are you really suggesting that war veterans or victims of accidents and crimes or cancer survivors or women injured by pregnancy/birth events should simply be abandoned medically?

    And most medications don't "return" people to health. They remedy deficiencies of various kinds - thyroxine and insulin are the classic medications that are usually taken for life - there is no way to 'return' a thyroid or pancreas that's been destroyed by auto-immune disease. They're very much like prosthetics for amputated limbs - they restore normal function without replacing what's been lost.

    I think you need to think your approach through more precisely. Exactly which kind of chronic diseases, conditions, problems do you think should or shouldn't be ameliorated or 'normalised' by medication when the result is to allow a person to live a fairly normal life. Or would you 'select' by kind of person - war veterans and injured mothers yes, silly teenagers and arthritic grannies no.
    I'm not suggesting unwell people should be abondoned adelady... i don't think I need to think my aproach because this isn't really my aproach, I havn't said what my aproach would be. I was just outlining the ethecal dillemas as I see them... I'm sure I could benefit from thinking those ethical dillemas through more carefully before decideing on one aproach or another.

    Thanks for your insights :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    it's a real mine feild and i'v probably said too much already bearing in mind the nature of this thread... I don't want to influence pmb or interfere with his decisions, but he started this thread so I see no harm in discussing it.

    truth is IMO... whose to say anything is ethical or unethical? ethics is about doing what is best for all. The greatest good to the greatest number I believe is the utilitarian system of ethics we follow.
    I have a slightly different view on ethics. (Sticking my neck out as usual.) I believe in a natural sense of right and wrong, given to us through evolution. Theres not much wrong in a utilitarian ethics: only the question if it is right to sacrifice somebody for the good of the rest (including oneself) . I mean there are, or might be, cases where its wrong to do what gives the most good to as many as possible. Then , and in the end,we must do what FEELS to be the right thing to do.
    I think this would be classified as the theory of intuition which is valid... the objections to this theory is that not everybodies conscience is the same and it is dependent on experiences temprement etc... some peoples conscience may allow murder, where as other's wouldn't. Often your conscience will one day permit something that the next day it will not. These two ideas about ethics have there place. the other concept i heard was the theory of revalation... if we can trust our prophets that is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    whose to say anything is ethical or unethical? ethics is about doing what is best for all. The greatest good to the greatest number I believe is the utilitarian system of ethics we follow.
    I believe in a natural sense of right and wrong, given to us through evolution.
    I think this would be classified as the theory of intuition which is valid... the objections to this theory is that not everybodies conscience is the same and it is dependent on experiences temprement etc... some peoples conscience may allow murder, where as other's wouldn't. Often your conscience will one day permit something that the next day it will not. These two ideas about ethics have there place. the other concept i heard was the theory of revalation... if we can trust our prophets that is.
    I dont object to the objections, but I point out that it IS a duty to try to find out if there is something wrong with ones own feelings and try to adjust them!
    One should have reasons to be proud of oneself!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    I'm facing a trerrible dilema right now and I wanted to toss this out there to see what other people thing about the ethical ramifications of it.


    Since I already know that part let's skip it and actually get into a discussion from both sides of the coin and the Ethics of Suicide. There is actuall a pro and con side to it. Not everybody thinks you're coward if you can't stand that kind of pain for the next 30 years.

    All constuctive criticism welcome. All insults - get lost please.
    I think we all agree that your own decision will be the right decision, nobody else but you (and maybe god) can truly appreciate your situation... But keep in mind that we ARE on your side and will miss you if you are gone.

    Perhaps you think we are not so good in analyzing the pro and contras, but we are a little scared to over analyze things ...
    i mean your situation... Scared to say the wrong things, influence you unintentionally in a bad way.
    So ...well... I think we all feel somewhat unable to help. But hopefully you can find some....pleasure?... in reading our clumsy attempts to cheer you up. Hopefully some idiot comes in and says stupid things so we can skin him alive together
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    whose to say anything is ethical or unethical? ethics is about doing what is best for all. The greatest good to the greatest number I believe is the utilitarian system of ethics we follow.
    I believe in a natural sense of right and wrong, given to us through evolution.
    I think this would be classified as the theory of intuition which is valid... the objections to this theory is that not everybodies conscience is the same and it is dependent on experiences temprement etc... some peoples conscience may allow murder, where as other's wouldn't. Often your conscience will one day permit something that the next day it will not. These two ideas about ethics have there place. the other concept i heard was the theory of revalation... if we can trust our prophets that is.
    I dont object to the objections, but I point out that it IS a duty to try to find out if there is something wrong with ones own feelings and try to adjust them!
    One should have reasons to be proud of oneself!
    I think I missed the point sig... what are you trying to say about people having a duty to gauge there own feelings and trying to adjust them? forgive me if this applies to a previous post, I can't remember anything along these lines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    whose to say anything is ethical or unethical? ethics is about doing what is best for all. The greatest good to the greatest number I believe is the utilitarian system of ethics we follow.
    I believe in a natural sense of right and wrong, given to us through evolution.
    I think this would be classified as the theory of intuition which is valid... the objections to this theory is that not everybodies conscience is the same and it is dependent on experiences temprement etc... some peoples conscience may allow murder, where as other's wouldn't. Often your conscience will one day permit something that the next day it will not. These two ideas about ethics have there place. the other concept i heard was the theory of revalation... if we can trust our prophets that is.
    I dont object to the objections, but I point out that it IS a duty to try to find out if there is something wrong with ones own feelings and try to adjust them!
    One should have reasons to be proud of oneself!
    I think I missed the point sig... what are you trying to say about people having a duty to gauge there own feelings and trying to adjust them? forgive me if this applies to a previous post, I can't remember anything along these lines.
    Also, why should we feel proud? They say pride is a sin.

    I agree we should be proud to be a part of this life, to be a living being along with all the other living beings in this mysterious rollercoaster... But I personally think that when we get into personal pride, where does it stop? Wheres the dividing line between pride and conceit? pride and ego mania? or national pride, how is it different from racism?

    I'm proud to be who I am, and to be like all you other people... i'm proud to be muddling along.
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    Well Im not much for repeating other ppls thinking unless they have got things right

    All there need to be, is the expanding past and we are forever part of it.
    Most ppl think the past is unacessible:

    That it doesnt matter what they do... Well its like as if we all write a Diary together...
    And I sort of decided I dont want there to be certain things in the part of the Diary I wrote!

    Isnt it better to be proud instead of ashamed of ones past?
    Mind you: To me it doesnt matter if the Diary ever is read or not!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Isnt it better to be proud instead of ashamed of ones past?
    Mind you: To me it doesnt matter if the Diary ever is read or not!
    One thought this provoked is that to look back at your diary and cringe shows that you have grown into a more intelligent person. Whereas to look back and feel proud suggests you maybe have become less than you used to be...?

    im sure that doesn't apply in every instance.

    If you want my philosophy... theres not a lot of point looking back once you've learn all you can from your experiences, you should move on. live in the present moment. The future is beyond our control (but I don't mind a little planning), the past is gone (but i don't mind a little reflection).

    The rest of your comment was a little cryptical for me :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Isnt it better to be proud instead of ashamed of ones past?
    Mind you: To me it doesnt matter if the Diary ever is read or not!
    One thought this provoked is that to look back at your diary and cringe shows that you have grown into a more intelligent person. Whereas to look back and feel proud suggests you maybe have become less than you used to be...?

    im sure that doesn't apply in every instance.

    If you want my philosophy... theres not a lot of point looking back once you've learn all you can from your experiences, you should move on. live in the present moment. The future is beyond our control (but I don't mind a little planning), the past is gone (but i don't mind a little reflection).

    The rest of your comment was a little cryptical for me :-)
    1 Pride need not be bad! Its similar to appreciating beauty.
    If you make a beatiful painting,are you then forbidden to enjoy the result?
    Or: Shouldnt you laugh if you find yourself unexpectedly saying something funny?

    I doubt that there is a limit to what can be learned from experience...
    and I suspect its not good tactics to assume one has reached the limit if it exists.

    2 Dont worry if you dont understand me because that makes two of us:

    Both the present and the future look illusory to my eye: when I try to scrutinize the present moment I always find myself looking into what really is the immediate past,and the future isnt there unless its has reached the present moment but then its gone hiding into the past while I have been trying to make up my mind on whats happening.

    Only the past is...and remains as it is!
    Eh... That is only approximately true, since the past gets expanded at the spot where I am.

    It seems as if I am the skin of my past
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Isnt it better to be proud instead of ashamed of ones past?
    Mind you: To me it doesnt matter if the Diary ever is read or not!
    One thought this provoked is that to look back at your diary and cringe shows that you have grown into a more intelligent person. Whereas to look back and feel proud suggests you maybe have become less than you used to be...?

    im sure that doesn't apply in every instance.

    If you want my philosophy... theres not a lot of point looking back once you've learn all you can from your experiences, you should move on. live in the present moment. The future is beyond our control (but I don't mind a little planning), the past is gone (but i don't mind a little reflection).

    The rest of your comment was a little cryptical for me :-)
    1 Pride need not be bad! Its similar to appreciating beauty. hmmm nah, to look a beautiful face or body, or painting doesn't make me feel proud
    If you make a beatiful painting,are you then forbidden to enjoy the result? No. But... Most artists would see the flaws and where it needs improovement.
    Or: Shouldnt you laugh if you find yourself unexpectedly saying something funny? Well they do say you shouldn't . to laugh is forgivable, to spend all day telling everybody how you said something funny, is just sad.

    I doubt that there is a limit to what can be learned from experience... good point... possibly. but why spend your energy extracting every lesson from the past and miss what the present can teach you?
    and I suspect its not good tactics to assume one has reached the limit if it exists. At some point it must be more worthwhile moving on to a new experience, so you can learn from that.

    2 Dont worry if you dont understand me because that makes two of us: I do actually understand most of it

    Both the present and the future look illusory to my eye: when I try to scrutinize the present moment I always find myself looking into what really is the immediate past,and the future isnt there unless its has reached the present moment but then its gone hiding into the past while I have been trying to make up my mind on whats happening. Interesting... Maybe the present cannot be scrutinised it can only be experienced. and the past can no longer be experienced, it can only be scrutinised? and the future... who knows?

    Only the past is...and remains as it is! Only the present IS. the past WAS. the past was the present at the time, which would make the present.. the future?
    Eh... That is only approximately true, since the past gets expanded at the spot where I am. lol. The expanded past at the spot your in, is really the present, it is not the past, its the present veiw of the past, a mirage.

    It seems as if I am the skin of my past
    Now you've lost me!

    I do like your thinking,
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    What I can't understand is that pmb's dr wont prescribe the drugs... this is anlien to me.
    The doctor won't prescribe a pain killer unless a pain specialist tells him to. I.e. he's passing his responsibility to the pain specialist and then pain specialist won't prescribe something so he makes a recommendation to the doctor. That's no reason to calll the ER and tell them not to giveme any pain killers. The sick bastards.
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    and then pain specialist won't prescribe something so he makes a recommendation to the doctor
    Are there any other pain management clinics or specialists in your area - or at least near enough? Does your insurance company have a list of suitable specialists or other recommended providers?

    Hopefully Monday's appointment might have a better outcome. Fingers crossed.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Surely there is something you can do for the world bmp? surely killing yourself is a waste? you have the courage to face death so why not do something brave that makes the world a better place for others? Go into a church and throw all the treasures around, somthing like that.
    You don't get it. Try breaking your leg or getting a terrible sprain, such that the pain level varies from 3 to 9 with an average of about 5. Let 3 be the number which you can live with. Now try to live the rest of your life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Ha! You are wrong there. You will be missed. But ok... We cant be said to be persons close to you.
    But we think you are a nice and friendly person making this a better place!
    I deeply appreciate that sig.
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    Hi Pete

    I am not sure what to say. Your position is desperate and none of us can fully understand what you are going through.

    You are a likeable guy (despite having some enemies here). You have some knowledge and are passionate about sharing it, even while going through what you are going through. That gets me and I have had enormous respect for that from the beginning. From my perspective, the world would be a much poorer place without you in it. I am not saying this simply to "talk you down" or anything. I do feel a person has the right to end his/her own life, but I also believe that that person has to consider what his death would mean for those around him.

    If your family and friends abandoned you, I agree, fuck them! They don't determine your worth and don't have the necessary faculties to see what they are missing.

    Even though I am an atheist, I did use to be a Christian and can look at your position from that perspective. I don't think suicide is permitted in Christianity and would be frowned upon by God. What is your take on that?

    I do sincerely hope you find some relief in the near future. Don't give up yet my friend. You WILL be missed. I wish you all the best
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdW View Post
    Ha! You are wrong there. You will be missed. But ok... We cant be said to be persons close to you.
    But we think you are a nice and friendly person making this a better place!
    I deeply appreciate that sig.
    Aww well... you know me: All I care about is the truth.
    BTW if you decide to go then dont take some stupid deserving doctors with you.
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    From the existentialist viewpoint, I've always equated someone else's death as somewhat equivalent to them moving to New Jersey, basically, it meant I wasn't gonna see them no more.
    But, before you shuffle off this mortal coil, Is there anyplace where you could obtain the drugs you need legally? Amsterdam?

    The worst thing about being the last man standing is that you gotta go to all those fucking funerals, and try to look somber.
    anecdote
    When I was in highschool, a friend named michael was staggering down the middle of the road, dead drunk, one night when a local hot rodder rounded the curve doing over 80 mph. The contact fragmented michaels body and left him dead dead. Mike was no little angle(he used to sell polaroid pictures of his sister's crotch). At the funeral, some bozo preacher was going on about how only the good die young...yadda yadda yadda... and when he said "The lord has taken one of his little angles home" I burst out laughing, and couldn't stop guffawing. I clapped my hand over my mouth and proceeded to stagger to the rear exit of the church. Several young women in my class misunderstood, and thought that I was so broken up that I was sobbing inconsolably. (never underestimate the power of dumb luck to see you through when planning and intellect fail) For several days, I got consoling hugs to help me through this "sad time". And, I enjoyed every last one of them. Considering Mike's outlook on life, that was one helluva nice parting gift he gave me.
    Last edited by sculptor; August 10th, 2012 at 03:48 PM.
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    Hi again pmb! Im in no hurry in the present moment so I decided to adress ethics. What we cant help doing is producing a past. You are contemplating to stop that. But its possible that our basic function...our job... is to add a personal touch to the past as long as we can. Why?
    Well that is the basic mystery and most people think the past is gone from existence and will be of no further use for anyone. I cant help suspecting that it is wishful thinking. Who knows how many time axises in ninety degrees to each other there are? It should need only one for it being possible for someone within that time to read OUR past(and future)... What, I ask, would you like to be seen?
    I dont believe in a supernatural foundation of ethics, evolution has given us a sense of what is right and what is wrong... but our minds can contemplate the question if our natural morality is the best one...to spot if ones own system should be improved somehow...how much fighting against our own system we can manage is not determined but were not entirely powerless. Still theres no shame on you if you give in to too much pain. But honestly, please wait a while and force them doctors to serve you as they should. Then think things over again.
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    Listen my friend and fellow human of earth. I know what you are saying. It is not so easy for the doctors or anyone to understand thoroughly without going through what you are going through. We can only empathize with you and hope to give you some ideas how to continue.

    Taking your life is easy, you don't have to jump off a tall building, you don't have to jump off any building. The question to your self is can I take the pain or can I stop the pain? If you do not want to kill yourself then stopping the pain becomes the objective. I have had nine (9) opperations and was given up 4 to 5 times I was told I would only live untill I was about 40. Yet I am still here much older than that. I screamed for death to come and it would not, and I struggled for the pain to stop and while I was in this struggle an awakening came. The will to live was so strong that I was awakened.
    I am not saying your problem was or is the same as mine, I am saying there are many people on the planet exactly like you they are the ones that are the exceptions. Doctors do not find your problems easy and sometimes they cannot give you a certain type of drug although it might help you temporarily.


    I do not want to start giving you any directions but I can tell you how I solved mine. First I had to look within myself to find out what was wrong. There is always something that is causing us to get ill, you need to go back through your childhood and check your father and mother. As soon as you begin to do that you will have a little less pain. The body reacts to knowledge. While you are getting your knowledge base about yourself you have to clean out the body.

    Try to make a compleate diet change and drink lots of water and try to get good clean air. First you want to find out what is wrong with you since the doctors cannot help you so you have to listen to the body. Get some good clean canabis and cook it in some soup try vegitable instead of meat. You have to clean your body and mind, the way to do that is to change almost everthing. Turn your self up side down but change it. The ganja will help to give you insight into your being and calm the nerves since they are a major problem.


    Finding out about your back ground is very important it was some where there you more than likley developed your illness. While you are doing your research you will have less pain because you mind will be working you have given it a new task. In the mean time you can use smaller dosis of pain drugs when things gets rough. However you must keep in mind the reason why you are doing your research because this is going to be your new pain killer.


    I can't go into all of it now but it is better to try something than do nothing. I will keep in touch if you want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    But of course, just that we should ensure that they know what they are choosing to do and fully understand their decision. We don't want hoards of people killing themselves because they are bored or a bit depressed!
    I'm not for commiting suicide if the problem is a temporary one like a bad bout of depression. But I'm not depressed, at least not by any biochemical reason. I'm depressed because all my life is pain. Especially this week when the pain got so bad I was in tears and was almost not able to walk. It's a fact that without pain killers I'll be in untolerable pain for the rest of my lie, unless, that is, if I lay down on my couch for the rest of my life when the pain is just above tolerable. I'm sure there are people who live like that. I won't be one of them.

    Suicidal thoughts resulting from depression is quite often a fleeting thing which can be helped with hospitalization. My case is different. I've been quite undepressed and keep thinking about it and have for many years.

    The last few days have given me some hope. You folks have been very encouraging to me. And I was able to get a script for oxycocone so now I have a reprieve from my pain for the rest of the weekend. It's wonderful.

    What really pissed me off is that I contacted a few newspapers asking them to use their contacts in the medical field in hopes that they'd see of they could get some other ideas for pain relief that I haven't thought off. Want to know what their response to me was? Nothing! Absolute stone cold silence. What assholes. Makes me want to jump off their roof if the time came and let it be known to the world that the newspaper wouldn't lift a finger to help a suffering suicidal man. I hope they all rot in hell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    What I can't understand is that pmb's dr wont prescribe the drugs...
    Just one more reason that I think all drugs should be legal in a "free market"
    Let the patient decide.
    Who better?
    Who worse? wth do patients know about the workings, effects, consequences of various medications? most patients don't even know what the options are. I always decide to avoid medication like the plague. but I accept one day they might provide much needed relief.

    my father had an addiction to a cocktail of medications... It was very difficult to see the effects they had on him... I'd like to sue.
    The doctors should only give their advice. Pharmacists really know more about medication than doctors. There has to be control though for people who can't control their own medication. I have a visiting nurse because my memory sucks. All my meds are kept in a safe.
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    Im happy to hear that you are back in control of your life because of somebody giving you treatment
    Last edited by KALSTER; August 10th, 2012 at 09:08 PM. Reason: Removed inappropriate twaddle
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    Yes, you were indeed being very rude and inappropriate. I am removing your questions. Find another place to ask them without reference to this thread.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I really don't get this fear of patients becoming addicted thing.
    It's based on the ignorance and stupidity of doctors. If done right it would become impossible for the pain killers to hurt you. You can't really become addicted in the sense that it could hurt you. In my case all I need is a visiting nurse, which I already have, who controls the meds that I take. Right now all of my meds, including the oxycodone I got last night, is in a medication safe. I could never break into it and I'd never even try. It would cost me too much in pain and suffering to do such a thing. But this idiot doctors think "Well its possible since its there. or some dumb shit like that. My poodle reasons more cogently than that.


    In the worst case the doctor would simplyt stop prescribing. How can someone miss something so simple when my nurses watch me like a hawk?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    From the existentialist viewpoint, I've always equated someone else's death as somewhat equivalent to them moving to New Jersey, basically, it meant I wasn't gonna see them no more.
    But, before you shuffle off this mortal coil, Is there anyplace where you could obtain the drugs you need legally? Amsterdam?

    The worst thing about being the last man standing is that you gotta go to all those fucking funerals, and try to look somber.
    anecdote
    When I was in highschool, a friend named michael was staggering down the middle of the road, dead drunk, one night when a local hot rodder rounded the curve doing over 80 mph. The contact fragmented michaels body and left him dead dead. Mike was no little angle(he used to sell polaroid pictures of his sister's crotch). At the funeral, some bozo preacher was going on about how only the good die young...yadda yadda yadda... and when he said "The lord has taken one of his little angles home" I burst out laughing, and couldn't stop guffawing. I clapped my hand over my mouth and proceeded to stagger to the rear exit of the church. Several young women in my class misunderstood, and thought that I was so broken up that I was sobbing inconsolably. (never underestimate the power of dumb luck to see you through when planning and intellect fail) For several days, I got consoling hugs to help me through this "sad time". And, I enjoyed every last one of them. Considering Mike's outlook on life, that was one helluva nice parting gift he gave me.
    Touching.!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Hi Pete

    I am not sure what to say. Your position is desperate and none of us can fully understand what you are going through.

    You are a likeable guy (despite having some enemies here). You have some knowledge and are passionate about sharing it, even while going through what you are going through. That gets me and I have had enormous respect for that from the beginning. From my perspective, the world would be a much poorer place without you in it. I am not saying this simply to "talk you down" or anything. I do feel a person has the right to end his/her own life, but I also believe that that person has to consider what his death would mean for those around him.

    If your family and friends abandoned you, I agree, fuck them! They don't determine your worth and don't have the necessary faculties to see what they are missing.

    Even though I am an atheist, I did use to be a Christian and can look at your position from that perspective. I don't think suicide is permitted in Christianity and would be frowned upon by God. What is your take on that?

    I do sincerely hope you find some relief in the near future. Don't give up yet my friend. You WILL be missed. I wish you all the best
    Encouraging.!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I really don't get this fear of patients becoming addicted thing.
    It's based on the ignorance and stupidity of doctors. If done right it would become impossible for the pain killers to hurt you. You can't really become addicted in the sense that it could hurt you. In my case all I need is a visiting nurse, which I already have, who controls the meds that I take. Right now all of my meds, including the oxycodone I got last night, is in a medication safe. I could never break into it and I'd never even try. It would cost me too much in pain and suffering to do such a thing. But this idiot doctors think "Well its possible since its there. or some dumb shit like that. My poodle reasons more cogently than that.


    In the worst case the doctor would simplyt stop prescribing. How can someone miss something so simple when my nurses watch me like a hawk?
    Well Monday isnt so far away, whats happening on your other fronts?
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    pmb:

    I cannot imagine what you are going through. I encourage you to hang in there. It may not be a bad idea to talk to a mental health professional, not because you are depressed, but because one may have experience with helping you cope with the weight of your illness.

    People here have made it clear that you would be missed. You have a dog. Your dog would miss you. Kalster mentioned the religious perspective. There are a couple perspectives in this regard that you might consider.

    One thing that I have noticed is that almost every time I get discouraged or feel like quitting on some project I am working on, I seem to run accross someone who is really hurting. This helps me put my own issues in perspective, and overcome feelings of discouragement. Thus, just by hanging in there, you may be lifting up people that you don't even know about.

    I read somewhere that from a spiritual perspective, someone who helps another person who ends up doing something good, gets equal credit for the end result. Thus, when you lift up others, and they go on to lift up someone else, or even create some new discovery, then you created the good result as much as anyone else involved.

    I read another book about the apparitions at Fatima Portugal in the early part of the 20th century. From this book I also learned a spiritual concept that people who suffer can offer their suffering for the salvation of others. This is another way that you may be able to wield great influence for good.

    Good luck on Monday.
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  60. #59  
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    No.

    Your life is yours. If a person doesent even have the freedom to choose death over life... ? Nothing "good" in that to be honest.

    Everyone dies. Its just a question of when. If a person decides "Ok im done, see ya!" noone has the right to judge you. Because on a grand cosmic scale - all life is insignificant and is doomed to die either way. In a million years humanity will be gone. By the blade of pollution, war or natural occurances like climate - sun running out and so on. Everything that ever happened on earth will be gone and forgotten forever. The universe's cold dark embrace will not care why or how ANY of us died. And if there is a God and you are punnished for taking your life, that is a cruel and malevolent God not worthy of love - void of reason, logic and all that is good.

    Edit: Im not encouraging you to suicide. Life is a free ride. Take what you can from it. Personally I just dont see anything wrong with it, especially if you are in great pain. Morals and ethics arent nature but human constructs. And the LEAST of your concern is caring what other people think.
    A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it. - David Stevens
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    on a grand cosmic scale - all life is insignificant
    Hi!
    I couldnt help noticing this blunder in an otherwise thoughtful post.

    Im to tired to explain now why I think the statement is a mistake

    on a grand cosmic scale

    But ill return later!

    Edit: Theres only a finite amount of free energy in our universe
    and life grows exponentially,
    which means life will within a finite time consume all free energy there is.
    Im short:Life will eat the universe up! Thats insignificant??
    Last edited by sigurdW; August 12th, 2012 at 05:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    pmb:

    I cannot imagine what you are going through. I encourage you to hang in there. It may not be a bad idea to talk to a mental health professional, not because you are depressed, but because one may have experience with helping you cope with the weight of your illness.
    That's the plan right now. I was in Boston doing a little book shopping at the MIT Coop (got a nice little book on evolution!). On the way home the sciatica started to flame up again. It was horrible. I got off the subway near the hospital. By the time I got there I was incapable of walking. I had to take an ambulace to the ER since I was in the wrong part of the hospital. They gave me tizanadine. Worked nicely! I wish I tried this before. I never even heard of it. That's pretty sad!

    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    People here have made it clear that you would be missed. You have a dog. Your dog would miss you.
    I don't really have a dog. I had a poodle when I was a kid. What a smart dog those poodles are.

    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Good luck on Monday.
    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post

    That's the plan right now. I was in Boston doing a little book shopping at the MIT Coop (got a nice little book on evolution!). On the way home the sciatica started to flame up again. It was horrible. I got off the subway near the hospital. By the time I got there I was incapable of walking. I had to take an ambulace to the ER since I was in the wrong part of the hospital. They gave me tizanadine. Worked nicely! I wish I tried this before. I never even heard of it. That's pretty sad!
    I am addicted to new books. I believe in evolution and creation, although I can't explain every contradiction. I am glad you got something that helps. It is interesting that a muscle spasm drug works so well. I will remember that one.

    Did physical therapy do any good for your condition? I don't know anything about severe back problems. Maybe your doc. knows if PT is effective or safe.

    Sometimes reading about saints who suffered a lot helps me get through stuff also. In my religion (Catholic) we can ask saints to intercede for a particular problem. I will keep you in my prayers.

    My wife is interested in a standard poodle since we lost our dog last June (shepherd mix.) Our dog was also very smart.
    Last edited by dedo; August 12th, 2012 at 05:29 AM.
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    Glad to hear you've got some releif for the weekend pmb... fingers crossed that you'll be given pain releif from now on.

    Just reading through this thread, it's obvious your an intelligent guy with a load of experiences to share with the world.

    It seems to me there is good reason for you to be strong and keep going.

    I ask you this... is it ethical to take all your experience with you and not share them with the world?

    Write a book, start a blog, campaign for others in your position so that others don't have to go through what you went through?

    Best wishes to you brother
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Glad to hear you've got some releif for the weekend pmb... fingers crossed that you'll be given pain releif from now on.
    Thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Just reading through this thread, it's obvious your an intelligent guy with a load of experiences to share with the world.
    Thank you very much. That is very kind of you to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    It seems to me there is good reason for you to be strong and keep going.

    I ask you this... is it ethical to take all your experience with you and not share them with the world?
    I don't consider myself to be that important. When I leave someone will replace me. That's how the world works.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Write a book, start a blog, campaign for others in your position so that others don't have to go through what you went through?
    That, my friend, is a wonderful idea. I think I'll hound my congresswoman until she does something about it. There's no reason to let people suffer like this.

    Okay. I've made my decision. For the forseeable furture, I won't hurt myself. I'd like to thank all of you for making me see the light. I never thought anybody would miss me when I'm gone but I guess I was wrong. Thanks for making me realize that.
    KALSTER, SpeedFreek and sigurdW like this.
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    Top man! you go get 'em tiger! Nobody will have the exact experience you have... we all have our work to do which nobody else can do quite as well as us.

    I'm wishing you every success in using your specific experience and knowledge to help create a better system of things. Even when your sure your getting knowhere... you might be making more of a difference than you will ever realise.

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    GREAT! And dont forget posting in here, we are disappointed if you stay away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    ... That, my friend, is a wonderful idea. I think I'll hound my congresswoman until she does something about it. There's no reason to let people suffer like this. ... .
    Post the text of your message(s) to your congresswoman, and I'll rephrase and send to my elected representatives as well.

    bonadventure
    rod
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    ... That, my friend, is a wonderful idea. I think I'll hound my congresswoman until she does something about it. There's no reason to let people suffer like this. ... .
    Post the text of your message(s) to your congresswoman, and I'll rephrase and send to my elected representatives as well.

    bonadventure
    rod
    Yes pmb will get a strong support from all of us if he moves!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    Okay. I've made my decision. For the forseeable furture, I won't hurt myself. I'd like to thank all of you for making me see the light. I never thought anybody would miss me when I'm gone but I guess I was wrong. Thanks for making me realize that.
    Fantastic news! I am really glad we were able to help you with this. Seems sometimes people don't get helped enough around here. Looks like your desire to help has been paid forward and deservedly so. I am looking forward to hearing about your progress. All the best!
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Glad to hear you've got some releif for the weekend pmb... fingers crossed that you'll be given pain releif from now on.
    Thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Just reading through this thread, it's obvious your an intelligent guy with a load of experiences to share with the world.
    Thank you very much. That is very kind of you to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    It seems to me there is good reason for you to be strong and keep going.

    I ask you this... is it ethical to take all your experience with you and not share them with the world?
    I don't consider myself to be that important. When I leave someone will replace me. That's how the world works.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Write a book, start a blog, campaign for others in your position so that others don't have to go through what you went through?
    That, my friend, is a wonderful idea. I think I'll hound my congresswoman until she does something about it. There's no reason to let people suffer like this.

    Okay. I've made my decision. For the forseeable furture, I won't hurt myself. I'd like to thank all of you for making me see the light. I never thought anybody would miss me when I'm gone but I guess I was wrong. Thanks for making me realize that.
    We are really here to take care of one another, how can we not want to know you are ok and not feeling pain. We were never meant to get ill in the first place, our food should be our medicine and our medicine our food.
    My brother don't give up things can change, we can direct energy to you and give you strenght.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    ... That, my friend, is a wonderful idea. I think I'll hound my congresswoman until she does something about it. There's no reason to let people suffer like this. ... .
    Post the text of your message(s) to your congresswoman, and I'll rephrase and send to my elected representatives as well.

    bonadventure
    rod
    The letter said
    Dear Congresswoman I suffer degenerative disk disease. I was on pain killers until my doctor left his practice. Eventually I wound up with doctors who won't give me anything that will help with the pain. I've lived too long with such terrible pain (8 years) that in Jan 2012 I cut my throat open to die. The goverment laws have made Doctors too scared to pescribe pain killers so it appears that they'r rather let us die than take a small risk in prescribing something so I don't want to jump off a cliff. I have no where to turn to. I'm begging you for help. Change the laws so that these cowardly doctors aren't afraid to help people like me. Otherwise I fear that the next time I want to kill myself I won't fail. PLEASE help me. Pete
    The following is the one I'll mail to here
    Dear CoDear Congresswoman,

    I suffer from degenerative disk disease. It started with a herniated disk back in 2004. I had to surgeries, the first being a Lamenectomy, the second being a disk removal and fusion. Both failed. I then had many epidural I injections at pain clinics. When they all failed the pain specialist refused to recommend painkillers. I had to find a new doctor since my current doctor wouldn’t prescribe painkillers either, regardless of the fact that I was suffering intolerably. All he had so say, basically, was too bad. The new doctor send to me a new pain clinic. The pain specialist recommended taking oxicontin. So my doctor put me on it. He changed specialties, which eventually led me to another doctor who then retired a year later. His replacement told me that the pain was all in my head and gain said too bad about the pain. I have yet been able to find a doctor who will refill that prescription. They tried pain clinic who recommended the narcotic Suboxone or Methadone. My doctor allowed me to try Suboxone. That not only failed but also made me wake up choking nearly ever other night as a side effect. He refused to put me on Methadone. I can’t take this pain too much longer. In January of this year I cut my throat open because I couldn’t take the pain anymore. I’m back at this same position. I have an appointment with a new doctor on Monday. We’ll see how that goes.

    The government have changed the laws regarding pain killers to the point where the doctors are too cowardly to prescribe them. This needs to change. This pain is keeping me disabled. I’m a physicist who wants to go back to work. I spent my entire life trying to do the right thing. I served my country in the United States Air Force, I studied to become a scientist and solve some of life’s problems and help understand the universe we life in. And this is how my country treats me? I trired the VA Hospital but they were very cruel to me. Who knows how many other people actually killed themselves because they too couldn’t take the pain. Some friends of mine recommended that I campaign for people like me to change the laws and help end this kind of terrible suffering that people have to live for their entire lives. There really is no excuse for it. Its not as if I could abuse the medications since my visiting nurses keep all my medications in a safe. I have memory problems so I need to have that in my life. Its not as if this is not a correct medical decision because on two occasions pain specialists recommended it with four other doctors prescribing it (Oxycontin).

    I’d hate to think that I’d ever get to the point where I’d want to kill myself again. The next time I won’t fail. I am quite literally begging you for help.

    Peter M. Brown



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    You REALLY need a proofreader before you mail that.

    \When I have time later, I'll do that and PM it to you.


    Wayne
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    You REALLY need a proofreader before you mail that.

    \When I have time later, I'll do that and PM it to you.


    Wayne
    This one applauds!
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    pmb

    There are some other ways to get the drugs you need and they are all better than suicide.

    1. Maybe another country with more flexible drug laws.
    2. If you can afford it, illegal drugs are not to hard to come by.

    Also, if drugs quit helping, a little over dose can be clean and pain free. Sure beats a sidewalk splat or blowing your brains out.

    I read the highest rate in suicides occurs in the over 85 year old group, and virtually all of them are drug over doses.

    By the way how old are you at this time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    You REALLY need a proofreader before you mail that.

    \When I have time later, I'll do that and PM it to you.


    Wayne
    That letter was a first rough draft. I'd never mail something sloppy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    pmb

    There are some other ways to get the drugs you need and they are all better than suicide.

    1. Maybe another country with more flexible drug laws.
    2. If you can afford it, illegal drugs are not to hard to come by.

    Also, if drugs quit helping, a little over dose can be clean and pain free. Sure beats a sidewalk splat or blowing your brains out.

    I read the highest rate in suicides occurs in the over 85 year old group, and virtually all of them are drug over doses.

    By the way how old are you at this time?
    At this point I'm going to fight it harder. My friend is a martial arts expert who told me he'd teach me martial arts at no cost. I took lessons with him back in the late 70's in Kung Fu. I loved it so I plan on doing that again. It will bring something into my life that I love and the stretching and exercise will do me wonders.

    I also plan on joining a gym and lift weights and exercising. When disabled its an extremely slow process. But I could use the enorphines. My head doesn't feel right. It's like a constant headache.
    Last edited by pmb; August 12th, 2012 at 08:38 PM.
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    Well yesterday's visit to a new doctor was a bust. I'm going to a new pain clinic. I think this one perscribes med when indicated.
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    I had a final meeting with my doctor. I turns out that the old pain clinic told the new one that I broke a narcotic contract, which is a lie. To be on a pain contract the health care provided has to have you sign such a contract and if you gave a dirty urine then you broke it. First off the old pain clinic does have a narcotic contract because they don't prescribe narcotics and I never signed anything to that effect anyway. The worst thing that happened was I had a couple of dirty urines but I wasn't taking any pain killers so that's moot. So now it's time to sue.I

    I've left that hospital behind and am moving my health care outside of it. When I let the hospital today and went to get into my friends car we went into the parking garage. I noticed how high it was open to the air. No problem with jumping off that kind of roof. So the method is set in stone in case I change my mind and end it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    I had a final meeting with my doctor. I turns out that the old pain clinic told the new one that I broke a narcotic contract, which is a lie. To be on a pain contract the health care provided has to have you sign such a contract and if you gave a dirty urine then you broke it. First off the old pain clinic does have a narcotic contract because they don't prescribe narcotics and I never signed anything to that effect anyway. The worst thing that happened was I had a couple of dirty urines but I wasn't taking any pain killers so that's moot. So now it's time to sue.I

    I've left that hospital behind and am moving my health care outside of it. When I let the hospital today and went to get into my friends car we went into the parking garage. I noticed how high it was open to the air. No problem with jumping off that kind of roof. So the method is set in stone in case I change my mind and end it.
    Damn! Tetrated! Are there other pain clinics? Have they also been fed lies...
    Can you get rich by suing them all?
    (No problems left to solve then. Build up a strong case...get a lawyer to help... if you split the damages with him he might be really useful.)
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    Well, phoooey.

    Hope the new clinic takes a better history, keeps better records, pays more attention to your problems than their own.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Dont let the bastards get you down pmb!
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    I'm back.

    The pain was so bad that I went a bit nutty and said something nutty in an e-mail. I was arrested for it. I just got out. I was in jail for 2.5 months. It was hell!
    I kept telling those doctors that the pain was messing with my head and twisting my mind and they kept ignoring me. Society shouldn't have been surprised to see me go cuckoo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    I'm back.

    The pain was so bad that I went a bit nutty and said something nutty in an e-mail. I was arrested for it. I just got out. I was in jail for 2.5 months. It was hell!
    I kept telling those doctors that the pain was messing with my head and twisting my mind and they kept ignoring me. Society shouldn't have been surprised to see me go cuckoo!
    This thread should have been titled "Is It Ethical To Allow a Human Being To Suffer Bad Pain?". I'd have to answer no it's not. If they can't cure the pain, then they need to control it. If they have nothing better than addicting drugs, then that will have to do, because withholding those drugs in this case becomes unethical.

    PS - Come to Washington, at least you can smoke killer pot here now.
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    Oh lordy.

    Did anyone do anything useful for you medically while you were in there? Even if it's only a referral to a decent medical service.

    Keep on keeping on. Fingers and everything else crossed for you.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Oh lordy.

    Did anyone do anything useful for you medically while you were in there? Even if it's only a referral to a decent medical service.
    No. In fact the medical people there are so incompetent there that it's criminal. A few days after I got there I keeled over backwards and feel down, my head bouncing off the concrete floor. For two months I had bouts of extreme dizzyness. Knowing this they consistenetly ignored me, even after the nurse practitioner told me it could be neurological. I was scared to death! I had constant anxiety attacks, my ulcer acted up (severe pain!!) and my heital hernia was being quite paiful too. I had frequent chest pains. If I told them I had chest pains and I didn't have a heart attack the nurse got pissed at me. I was told of a guy who fell out of the top rack and hit is head on the floor. He had severe headaches and dizzyness. They did nothing for him. He died two days later. I guy died when I was there too. He slipped and fell down the steel stairway and it killed him. 3 out of 4 times that the doctor prescribed things like ibuprofen or tylenol (for sciatica!!!!!!!!) she forgot to write it down and I nevef got it. One guy told her that his shoulder was killing him. She told him to rub baloney on it!

    Jail is a very dangerous place to be, and it need not. The medical people are incompetant and should be put behind bars themselves. I was only there because I was sick.

    I'm really pissed off at the state as you can tell. As for freedom of religion? Forget it. When I got there I had a panic attack. The Leutenant ask me why I was there and I said it was because I was suicidal and said something dumb. He asked if I still was and I said no. He asked me if it was possible that I could be in the future and, since you're a liar (or ignoran/stupid) if you claim no, I said maybe. He then said "Then that could be tommorrow - Q5!!!" which means that they take every thing out of your cell, strip you naked and make you sleep in a canvas sleeping bag. It was the most humilitating thing I've ever experienced in my life. I hope that bastard rots in hell. And my mind was so messed up with guilt and confusion that I couldn't think. I wanted to read the bible but they refused to let me (they had one right there). It was against the rules to let you have anything at all in the cell, even a bible.

    So you really don't have freedom of religion. They will take it out from under your feet when you need it the most. Because of that hell I'm now an atheist/agnostic again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    I had a final meeting with my doctor. I turns out that the old pain clinic told the new one that I broke a narcotic contract, which is a lie. To be on a pain contract the health care provided has to have you sign such a contract and if you gave a dirty urine then you broke it. First off the old pain clinic does have a narcotic contract because they don't prescribe narcotics and I never signed anything to that effect anyway. The worst thing that happened was I had a couple of dirty urines but I wasn't taking any pain killers so that's moot. So now it's time to sue.I

    I've left that hospital behind and am moving my health care outside of it. When I let the hospital today and went to get into my friends car we went into the parking garage. I noticed how high it was open to the air. No problem with jumping off that kind of roof. So the method is set in stone in case I change my mind and end it.
    One last thing - When I was in jail I got a letter from that clinic. Because I disagreed with my doctor I've been banned from the clinic. They lied and claimed that I used bad language but that's a lie. They also claimed that I refused to go to a sleeping clinci or physical therapy. Also lies. I was unble to get transportation to the clinic. I tried physical therapy about 4 ties before with ZERO results. I refused to repeat something that consistently failed. So yet another law suit - Breach of contract.

    That's Brigham and Women's Hospital. They suck. Want more horror stories about that place? I'll be glad to tell you.

    While in jail I had plenty of time to think. So I listed out all the physical maladies I've had since I got leukemia. It was between 25-30 including leukemia, extremely erroded esauphagus, ulcer, gall bladded attack, pancreatitis, 4 herniated disks, spinal stenosis, arthritis in my lower back, ulcer, heital hernia, torn retina, cataract, detached retina, glaugoma, superventricular tachycardia, skippin heartbeat, colon polyps (risk factor for colon cancer), divertulosis, osteopenia and glaucoma (as well as normall stuff like high cholesterol, hypertension, tenisis) .. amoung other things - This is what it means to have "Bad Luck". The day I was supposed to be bailed out the computer system went down state wide so that I had to spend an additional week there.

    Oh well. Life sucks then you die. At least while I was there I learned cosmology and evolution!
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  88. #87 pmb 
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    Wow! That's quite a list of problems. If I were in your position and I didn't couldn't see any hope for some quality to life and no doctors could offer a treatment that was workable and I could not get the drugs to make things bearable I wouldn't talk about suicide or ask if it's unethical. But then that's just me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    If I were in your position and I didn't couldn't see any hope for some quality to life and no doctors could offer a treatment that was workable and I could not get the drugs to make things bearable I wouldn't talk about suicide or ask if it's unethical. But then that's just me.
    One can never know what they'd do in a particular situation until they're actually in that exact same situation.

    Note: The reason I asked if suicide was ethical or not wasn't because I wasn't familiar with both sides of that debate (which can be found in any book on ethics) but because I wanted to make sure that there wasn't things I hadn't considered before.


    The thing with pain that most people don't know is that it messes with your mind, big time. It makes you depressed, it gives you terrible anxiety, it detroys your concentration, it destroys all aspects of your life. Every single day of my life I have to plan. I have to think of all the steps I'll have to take and determine if its safe to walk those distances, stand than long etc. The pain can be so bad that I breack down in tears. The worst part - I know it will never end. All the days of my life will be dominated by pain. The suicide rate for people with chronic pain is greater too. Guess what that means. It means that people who wouldn't be suicidal without chronic pain actually become suicidal with too much pain.

    See - The association of chronic pain a... [Semin Clin Neuropsychiatry. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI
    Abstract

    Chronic pain patients (CPPs) are at greater risk for depression than the general population. As such, one would expect suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, and suicide completions to be commonly found within chronic pain (CP) populations. To explore these issues, 18 studies relating to the association of CP and suicide were subjected to a structured review. These studies indicated that suicide ideation, suicide attempts, and suicide completions are commonly found in CPP populations. In addition, a number of controlled studies and suicide completion rate studies indicated that CP may be a suicide risk factor. Finally, a review of known suicide risk factors from other populations indicated that CP populations commonly exhibit other suicide risk factors. Psychiatric examiners should consider CP to be a potential suicide risk factor. In addition, in all CPPs exhibiting suicidal behavior, a careful search for associated comorbid suicide risk factors should be initiated.
    I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this, I just want to know what your thought process is on this - Tell me arKane , why do you think you're different? Why do you think you'd be the one who wouldn't have suicidal ideations? How do you know how you'd react to year after year after year after year after year etc of chronic moderate to severe pain which has destroyed your life? What would you do with such a life? What is the purpose of quantity of life when the quality is in the crapper?

    Anybody? This is like cancer in a way. Nobody can truly understand what its like to have cancer unless you've had it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post

    I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this, I just want to know what your thought process is on this - Tell me arKane , why do you think you're different? Why do you think you'd be the one who wouldn't have suicidal ideations? How do you know how you'd react to year after year after year after year after year etc of chronic moderate to severe pain which has destroyed your life? What would you do with such a life? What is the purpose of quantity of life when the quality is in the crapper?

    Anybody? This is like cancer in a way. Nobody can truly understand what its like to have cancer unless you've had it.
    You misunderstood me. I believe everybody has a right to end their lives when the quality of life isn't going to ever get better. I am a Kevorkian supporter. In my past I had a very painful condition diagnosed as Cluster Headaches, which caused short periods of very intense pain. The reason they are called cluster headaches is because they come in clusters and when they are at their worst they can happen a dozen times a day and last up to an hour each time. The pain was so bad I couldn't just grin and bear it, I had to find someplace to be alone as I couldn't stand to be around anybody while I was suffering that pain. One time I had to go to the hospital emergency room and the doctor had to give me two shots before I got some relief. He never told me what that first shot was, but I know it was a placebo to check and see if I was a doper looking for a fix or something like that.

    I'm not going to get into what caused my headaches, but I did find out what the cause was and if anyone reading this has or knows someone that has cluster headaches please PM me for the details.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    You misunderstood me.
    I don't believe so. I took your response litterally, i.e. that if you were me you wouldn't ask about the ethics of suicide etc. My querstion is "How do you know what you'd do if you experienced exactly what I have? Let me remind you that a life is an extremely complicated thing. I can only begin to relate my entire life to you. But I'll say this: I grew up tormented to the max, all sorts of trauma. When I got Leukemia I lost almost all of my so-called "friends." So now I'm basically all alone. I can't rely on family, they'd rather not hear from me. I've live through more trauma/pain than God had any right to give one person. It made me severly depressed and has left me with an anxiety disorder (not merely "anxiety" - Major difference!) and PTSD. I don't believe that anyone can accurately predict how they'd handle all of this when the depression and pain twists one's mind beyond all recognition. My question is - How do you know what you'd do or how you'd react under identical (not merely similar) circumstances? I never would have even guessed how I'd have reacted to just the Leukemia. Turns out that all the time I thought I was a coward for having constant fear that I was constantly told how brave I was/am for walking through it despite of the fear.

    Get the drift my friend?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    I'm back.

    The pain was so bad that I went a bit nutty and said something nutty in an e-mail. I was arrested for it. I just got out. I was in jail for 2.5 months. It was hell!
    I kept telling those doctors that the pain was messing with my head and twisting my mind and they kept ignoring me. Society shouldn't have been surprised to see me go cuckoo!
    Hey Pete your back , sorry to hear you ended up in jail, as it was I was starting to get a bit worried wondering what had happened to you. I hope your coping better now and finding it easier to handle everything, I'm always here to talk to if things start to get a bit much again.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  93. #92  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmb View Post
    My question is - How do you know what you'd do or how you'd react under identical (not merely similar) circumstances? I never would have even guessed how I'd have reacted to just the Leukemia. Turns out that all the time I thought I was a coward for having constant fear that I was constantly told how brave I was/am for walking through it despite of the fear.
    Of course your right, all I can do is relate to the pain I've suffered in my life time. May not be the same as yours, but pain is pain. If you don't mind my asking, how old are you now and how old were you when your problems started? I want some sense of how long you've suffered and your level of maturity during your suffering.

    Does sharing your pain on this forum help you in any way?
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    It makes you depressed, it gives you terrible anxiety, it detroys your concentration, it destroys all aspects of your life. Every single day of my life I have to plan. I have to think of all the steps I'll have to take and determine if its safe to walk those distances, stand than long etc.
    If you don't feel able to explain how you have to live with your condition, you might want to keep handy the link to "Spoon Theory".

    I especially liked the point, halfway down the page, about not even being able to get out of bed without 'counting your spoons' for the effort involved. The person describing the 'counting spoons' problem has Lupus, but it's much the same for anyone with chronic pain/illness.

    ” No! You don’t just get up. You have to crack open your eyes, and then realize you are late. You didn’t sleep well the night before. You have to crawl out of bed, and then you have to make your self something to eat before you can do anything else, because if you don’t, you can’t take your medicine, and if you don’t take your medicine you might as well give up all your spoons for today and tomorrow too.” I quickly took away a spoon and she realized she hasn’t even gotten dressed yet.
    The Spoon Theory written by Christine Miserandino | But You Dont Look Sick? support for those with invisible illness or chronic illness
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Its good to see youre back! I was worried there...still am.
    You need medical support...
    You must find a serious doctor wanting to help you.
    How? Dunno! ...advertise?

    Your story is fantastic!
    Its a CRIME to be suicidal in the US?
    Thank you Lord, that i live in Sweden.
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    (deleted message. I want to forget this subject matter)
    Last edited by pmb; December 23rd, 2012 at 08:05 AM.
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