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Thread: Disproving the infinate

  1. #1 Disproving the infinate 
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    The idea of an infinate multi-verse or that time can be infinate can be easily and quickly disproved by the fact that if there were indeed infinate universes then everything imagineable must happen in at least one of these universes also the same goes for time, meaning that if time is infinate then everything imagineable must eventually happen at one time or another.

    Since we can imagine any number of other possible universes that would interact with our own and that where we would be aware of it, e.g aliens from another universe turning the oceans red last year, simply do not exist, as I think we would remember red oceans, then every possibility cleary cannot exist thus there cannot be an infinate number of universes or infinate time.

    This also means that everything had a beginning and will one day have an end.


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    if there were indeed infinate universes then everything imagineable must happen in at least one of these universes
    Why?
    meaning that if time is infinate then everything imagineable must eventually happen at one time or another

    No. I can imagine a number of things that are unlikely to happen no matter how infinite the time span is.
    What are the odds that galaxies flying away from each other unite and form a cosmically gigantic Hitler in a pink tutu wearing a polka-dot T-Shirt with the number 42 and playing billiard with planets while on one of these planets 76 U-boats burried 2 km beneath the surface each contain 13 transvestite nuns that all sing the same Elvis song at the same time? It's never going to happen.


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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    What are the odds that galaxies flying away from each other unite and form a cosmically gigantic Hitler in a pink tutu and a T-Shirt with the number 42 that plays billiard with planets while on one of these planets 76 U-boats burried 2 km beneath the surface each contain 13 transvestite nuns that all sing the same Elvis song at the same time? It's never going to happen.
    Mein Gott! We both had the same dream. What are the chances?
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    if there were indeed infinate universes then everything imagineable must happen in at least one of these universes
    Why?
    meaning that if time is infinate then everything imagineable must eventually happen at one time or another

    No. I can imagine a number of things that are unlikely to happen no matter how infinite the time span is.
    What are the odds that galaxies flying away from each other unite and form a cosmically gigantic Hitler in a pink tutu wearing a polka-dot T-Shirt with the number 42 and playing billiard with planets while on one of these planets 76 U-boats burried 2 km beneath the surface each contain 13 transvestite nuns that all sing the same Elvis song at the same time? It's never going to happen.

    The whole point is that what you are suggesting is very unlikely, but then so is life it's self and that has happened, for there to be infinate universes then there has to be infinate variations not matter how unlikely, and that means every variation anything you can think of. Since these things do not exist then infinity cannot exist. Also we have measureable dimensions, nothing with measurable dimensions could exist with something infinate. This is because we would a part of that infinity and as we all know any part of infinity is also infinity which means we couldn't have measurable dimensions or a measurable life span if time is also infinate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The idea of an infinate multi-verse or that time can be infinate can be easily and quickly disproved by the fact that if there were indeed infinate universes then everything imagineable must happen in at least one of these universes also the same goes for time, meaning that if time is infinate then everything imagineable must eventually happen at one time or another.
    I suppose that is the whole point of the multiverse concept.

    Since we can imagine any number of other possible universes that would interact with our own
    And there is your problem. In any multiverse theory I have heard of, there is no way the different universes can have any interaction or knowledge of one another. That is partly why they are just speculation rather than science.

    I think we would remember red oceans
    Not if it was in another universe.

    This also means that everything had a beginning and will one day have an end.
    That seems like a complete non sequitur.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The idea of an infinate multi-verse or that time can be infinate can be easily and quickly disproved by the fact that if there were indeed infinate universes then everything imagineable must happen in at least one of these universes also the same goes for time, meaning that if time is infinate then everything imagineable must eventually happen at one time or another.
    I suppose that is the whole point of the multiverse concept.

    Since we can imagine any number of other possible universes that would interact with our own
    And there is your problem. In any multiverse theory I have heard of, there is no way the different universes can have any interaction or knowledge of one another. That is partly why they are just speculation rather than science.

    I think we would remember red oceans
    Not if it was in another universe.

    This also means that everything had a beginning and will one day have an end.
    That seems like a complete non sequitur.
    That is in a nutshell the fatal flaw of the multiverse theory, the theory suggests that there are infinate universes to take into account infinate variations, so by it's very definition that means every variation. That means that for that to be correct there must be a universe out there in which aliens have left it to come and interact with our universe and since they haven't and this particular variation doesn't exist then there cannot be infinate universes.
    The multiverse theory states infinate variations but ingores variations that interact between variations for infinity to exist these interactions between variations must also exist and they don't as as there would have to be one in which we were aware of right now in our own variation and we are not. To deny that interactions of possible variations exist is to limit infinity and the whole concept of infinity states there cannot be limits.

    If there are truly infinate variations of universes then anything that we can think of has to be one of those variations, if not where does it fit? and since we can think of a variation of a universe in which aliens exist and indeed interact with our universe in which we would be aware of them we have to think, but we are not actually aware of these interactions from this other universe obviously it doesn't exist. Now how can it be that a variation doesn't exist if every variation is supposed exist. It means that not every variation exist therefore there cannot be infinate universes or infinate time. It also means that at some point everything started and will at some point end, unless the universe is a paradox but that is not so clear cut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    That is in a nutshell the fatal flaw of the multiverse theory, the theory suggests that there are infinate universes to take into account infinate variations, so by it's very definition that means every variation. That means that for that to be correct there must be a universe out there in which aliens have left it to come and interact with our universe and since they haven't and this particular variation doesn't exist then there cannot be infinate universes.
    The multiverse theory states infinate variations but ingores variations that interact between variations for infinity to exist these interactions between variations must also exist and they don't as as there would have to be one in which we were aware of right now in our own variation and we are not. To deny that interactions of possible variations exist is to limit infinity and the whole concept of infinity states there cannot be limits.

    If there are truly infinate variations of universes then anything that we can think of has to be one of those variations, if not where does it fit? and since we can think of a variation of a universe in which aliens exist and indeed interact with our universe in which we would be aware of them we have to think, but we are not actually aware of these interactions from this other universe obviously it doesn't exist. Now how can it be that a variation doesn't exist if every variation is supposed exist. It means that not every variation exist therefore there cannot be infinate universes or infinate time. It also means that at some point everything started and will at some point end, unless the universe is a paradox but that is not so clear cut.
    Can you further explain what exactly you mean by "multiverse theory" ? Is it the Feynman path integral formulation of quantum mechanics you are referring to, or is it the idea that our universe is only one of infinitely many, unconnected universes ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    That is in a nutshell the fatal flaw of the multiverse theory, the theory suggests that there are infinate universes to take into account infinate variations, so by it's very definition that means every variation. That means that for that to be correct there must be a universe out there in which aliens have left it to come and interact with our universe and since they haven't and this particular variation doesn't exist then there cannot be infinate universes.
    Can you provide a reference to any mainstream multiverse theory that says that universes can interact?

    Failing that can you look up the definition of "straw man argument". You are inventing your own multiverse theory (with no reasonable basis) and then using it to make a claim about the nature of the universe.

    This is roughly equivalent to me saying: people speculate that there are unicorns; we don't see any pink unicorns; therefore pink doesn't exist.

    Infinity certainly exists in mathematics. Whether our universe is infinite in either time or space is unknown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Infinity certainly exists in mathematics. Whether our universe is infinite in either time or space is unknown.
    I would agree that "infinity certainly exists in mathematics" but at the risk of being seen as asking a naive layperson's question is there any evidence it exists, in some form, in the physical universe?
    Thinking back I am sure I am right to say that a mathematician, who no longer posts at this forum, answered this question, in the affirmative, by stating there were an infinite number of points between two positions, A and B, in the real world. These infinite points he mentioned would seem to be mathematical abstractions rather than anything "real".
    And lastly Chrisgorlitz; for someone who is so interested in "infinate" universes one might be forgiven for hoping you would learn how to spell the word correctly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    I would agree that "infinity certainly exists in mathematics" but at the risk of being seen as asking a naive layperson's question is there any evidence it exists, in some form, in the physical universe?
    I'm not sure. I don't think there is any evidence it doesn't, either. As I say, the universe may be infinite or it may not. We don't know. I have seen it argued that we can never know. We may only ever be able to put a lower bound on the size.

    We don't know if it had a start (in time) and we don't currently know if it will have an end. So it may be infinite in duration (which could be true even if it was created in the big bang) even if it isn't infinite in extent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    Thinking back I am sure I am right to say that a mathematician, who no longer posts at this forum, answered this question, in the affirmative, by stating there were an infinite number of points between two positions, A and B, in the real world.
    I would actually contest that; there is no evidence that space-time is perfectly smooth, meaning that it can be subdivided into infinitely many points for a given distance. Our fist timid attempts at formulating theories of quantum gravity would seem to suggest that this isn't actually the case, and that there is a minimum length scale below which the notions of distance and points become meaningless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Infinity certainly exists in mathematics. Whether our universe is infinite in either time or space is unknown.
    I would agree that "infinity certainly exists in mathematics" but at the risk of being seen as asking a naive layperson's question is there any evidence it exists, in some form, in the physical universe?
    Thinking back I am sure I am right to say that a mathematician, who no longer posts at this forum, answered this question, in the affirmative, by stating there were an infinite number of points between two positions, A and B, in the real world. These infinite points he mentioned would seem to be mathematical abstractions rather than anything "real".
    And lastly Chrisgorlitz; for someone who is so interested in "infinate" universes one might be forgiven for hoping you would learn how to spell the word correctly.
    Sorry, about the spelling.

    I would suggest it is possible to look at infinity in another way so that is easier to comprehend, infinity is not measureable but everything in our universe is, that means a finite number of atoms and positions that they could possibly exist in. That would also mean that there could only ever be a finite number of possible different variations of other possible possible universes. The only way to increase that number is for the possibly of interactions between variations and if this were the case there again would have to be variations of interactions with our own universe we would be aware of.

    To concieve of a variation of universe that could not be included in 'infinity' must surely call into question the notion of infinate universes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    I would suggest it is possible to look at infinity in another way so that is easier to comprehend, infinity is not measureable but everything in our universe is
    That is only true if the universe is finite. So you have moved from a straw man to "begging the question". Are you running through a textbook of rhetorical errors?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    I would suggest it is possible to look at infinity in another way so that is easier to comprehend, infinity is not measureable but everything in our universe is
    That is only true if the universe is finite. So you have moved from a straw man to "begging the question". Are you running through a textbook of rhetorical errors?
    The observeable universe cannot be infinite as we are apart of it and we ourselves are not infinite, to take any part of infinity would still be infinity and we are a part of the universe and we are not infinite thus the universe cannot be infinite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    I would suggest it is possible to look at infinity in another way so that is easier to comprehend, infinity is not measureable but everything in our universe is
    That is only true if the universe is finite. So you have moved from a straw man to "begging the question". Are you running through a textbook of rhetorical errors?
    The observeable universe cannot be infinite as we are apart of it and we ourselves are not infinite, to take any part of infinity would still be infinity and we are a part of the universe and we are not infinite thus the universe cannot be infinite.
    That doesn't make sense. Why should a bit of infinity be infinity as well? If I write down the number 42, is that not a finite number in an infinite series?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    I would suggest it is possible to look at infinity in another way so that is easier to comprehend, infinity is not measureable but everything in our universe is
    That is only true if the universe is finite. So you have moved from a straw man to "begging the question". Are you running through a textbook of rhetorical errors?
    The observeable universe cannot be infinite as we are apart of it and we ourselves are not infinite, to take any part of infinity would still be infinity and we are a part of the universe and we are not infinite thus the universe cannot be infinite.
    That doesn't make sense. Why should a bit of infinity be infinity as well? If I write down the number 42, is that not a finite number in an infinite series?

    Let me put this way, we are inside the universe and we occupy a certain amount of space within the universe, now the space we occupy can be measured it has a quantifiable size. But that space is still part of the universe. No matter how small a percentage or fraction of the universe that space is it is still a peice of the universe. Any percentage or fraction of infinity is always infinity it shares that propery with nothing.

    This means that because the space we occupy has a measurable amount then so does the universe so it cannot be infinite.

    As for your number sequence annalagy, well you are correct to a point, 42 would have be in infinite number sequence. However 42 is just a number it is not a weight like 42 kg ( which not be possible in infinity as infinity would always have infinate mass), or a distance like 42 meters ( as again infinity would have always have infinate length. It is simply not possible to take any part or peice of inifity and measure it as it would always be infinate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post

    Let me put this way, we are inside the universe and we occupy a certain amount of space within the universe, now the space we occupy can be measured it has a quantifiable size. But that space is still part of the universe. No matter how small a percentage or fraction of the universe that space is it is still a peice of the universe. Any percentage or fraction of infinity is always infinity it shares that propery with nothing.

    This means that because the space we occupy has a measurable amount then so does the universe so it cannot be infinite.
    That is not putting it another way. You are saying exactly the same thing and I am saying it is not valid. Sure, in maths any fraction of infinity is still infinity, but then also you can identify structure within infinity. The value of pi can be written out to as many digits as you like. It goes to infinity, but at the same time you get different numbers at different points. Other numbers have repeating patterns that go to infinity. If you want to use a mathematical idea to disprove that our universe is infinite, then you have to look at all of it and when you do that, your reasoning fails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The observeable universe cannot be infinite
    The observable universe is not infinite simply because it is observable: we could (in principle) count all of the protons, electrons, photons, etc. in the observable universe. That would be a very large but finite number.

    That says nothing about the overall size of the universe, other than setting a lower bound. We know from observation that the universe must be many times larger than the observable universe.

    to take any part of infinity would still be infinity
    That is just nonsense. The set of numbers from 1 to 10 is finite but is part of the infinite set of integers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post

    Let me put this way, we are inside the universe and we occupy a certain amount of space within the universe, now the space we occupy can be measured it has a quantifiable size. But that space is still part of the universe. No matter how small a percentage or fraction of the universe that space is it is still a peice of the universe. Any percentage or fraction of infinity is always infinity it shares that propery with nothing.

    This means that because the space we occupy has a measurable amount then so does the universe so it cannot be infinite.
    That is not putting it another way. You are saying exactly the same thing and I am saying it is not valid. Sure, in maths any fraction of infinity is still infinity, but then also you can identify structure within infinity. The value of pi can be written out to as many digits as you like. It goes to infinity, but at the same time you get different numbers at different points. Other numbers have repeating patterns that go to infinity. If you want to use a mathematical idea to disprove that our universe is infinite, then you have to look at all of it and when you do that, your reasoning fails.

    Let me try and make this a little clearer to understand.

    Lets imagine for a second you are trying to design a totally new universe from scratch. You decide to borrow things from this universe to place in your new universe. You at our universe and discover it is infinite in size and you want to take humans from our universe and put them in your own universe.
    When you put them in your universe you discover that they take up infiinite space and have infinite mass because they were a part of an infinite universe to start with and as a part of infinity they are also infinite.

    However if this universe is not infinite then when youn place the humans in your imaginery new universe they would not have infinate mass and size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Lets imagine for a second you are trying to design a totally new universe from scratch. You decide to borrow things from this universe to place in your new universe. You at our universe and discover it is infinite in size and you want to take humans from our universe and put them in your own universe.
    When you put them in your universe you discover that they take up infiinite space and have infinite mass because they were a part of an infinite universe to start with and as a part of infinity they are also infinite.
    This makes absolutely no sense at all. Let's say the total mass of humanity is about 5x1011kg. Transfer this mass to your new universe and it will be ... 5x1011kg.

    You can make up fantasy arithmetic, but it doesn't really help your argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Let me put this way, we are inside the universe and we occupy a certain amount of space within the universe, now the space we occupy can be measured it has a quantifiable size. But that space is still part of the universe. No matter how small a percentage or fraction of the universe that space is it is still a peice of the universe. Any percentage or fraction of infinity is always infinity it shares that propery with nothing.
    This means that because the space we occupy has a measurable amount then so does the universe so it cannot be infinite.
    We do not measure things relative to the size of the universe, we measure them only relative to other things, specifically relative to agreed units of measurements like the meter, the kilogram etc etc, all of which are finite. This does not allow you to draw any conclusions as to the size of the universe. It is perfectly acceptable to have an infinite universe with normal matter in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Lets imagine for a second you are trying to design a totally new universe from scratch. You decide to borrow things from this universe to place in your new universe. You at our universe and discover it is infinite in size and you want to take humans from our universe and put them in your own universe.
    When you put them in your universe you discover that they take up infiinite space and have infinite mass because they were a part of an infinite universe to start with and as a part of infinity they are also infinite.
    This makes absolutely no sense at all. Let's say the total mass of humanity is about 5x1011kg. Transfer this mass to your new universe and it will be ... 5x1011kg.

    You can make up fantasy arithmetic, but it doesn't really help your argument.
    Only if our universe is not infinite, which it isn't so you would be correct, point was though that if our universe was infinite and we took something from it and put it in another universe whatever we took out would also be infinite.

    You cannot divide, slice up, take apart any part of infinity and have left anything but still infinity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Only if our universe is not infinite
    How is that possibly relevant? 1kg is 1kg whether is is in a finite or infinite universe. You are just making stuff up to try and "prove" something you believe to be true.

    You cannot divide, slice up, take apart any part of infinity and have left anything but still infinity.
    Of course you can. The set of integers is an infinite set. The set of numbers between 0 and 10 is not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Let me put this way, we are inside the universe and we occupy a certain amount of space within the universe, now the space we occupy can be measured it has a quantifiable size. But that space is still part of the universe. No matter how small a percentage or fraction of the universe that space is it is still a peice of the universe. Any percentage or fraction of infinity is always infinity it shares that propery with nothing.
    This means that because the space we occupy has a measurable amount then so does the universe so it cannot be infinite.
    We do not measure things relative to the size of the universe, we measure them only relative to other things, specifically relative to agreed units of measurements like the meter, the kilogram etc etc, all of which are finite. This does not allow you to draw any conclusions as to the size of the universe. It is perfectly acceptable to have an infinite universe with normal matter in it.
    How can it be possible for a part of infinity not be infinite? It simply can't, every part of infinity is also infinite and we are not infinite there fore the universe cannot be infinite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    How can it be possible for a part of infinity not be infinite? It simply can't, every part of infinity is also infinite and we are not infinite there fore the universe cannot be infinite.
    The set of integers is an infinite set. The set of integers between 0 and 10 is not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    How can it be possible for a part of infinity not be infinite? It simply can't, every part of infinity is also infinite and we are not infinite there fore the universe cannot be infinite.
    As I already told you, we do not measure things within the universe as fractions of the whole. All we do is measure one thing in relation to the other, like for example how many meter sticks fit into a given distance. We don't measure the distance as a fraction of the entire universe. Mesurements within the universe are only relational, not absolute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Only if our universe is not infinite
    How is that possibly relevant? 1kg is 1kg whether is is in a finite or infinite universe. You are just making stuff up to try and "prove" something you believe to be true.

    You cannot divide, slice up, take apart any part of infinity and have left anything but still infinity.
    Of course you can. The set of integers is an infinite set. The set of numbers between 0 and 10 is not.

    1kg could not exist in an infinite universe, as anything inside the universe would subject to the same limitations as the universe itself. The infinite size of the universe would dictate that every part of it shared the same properties as the the whole i.e. infinity. This would mean that every part of an infinite universe would share infinite mass and size.
    1kg could only ever exist in a non infinite universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The set of integers is an infinite set. The set of integers between 0 and 10 is not.
    Precisely. Again, we do not express the set of integers between 0...10 as a fraction of all integers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    1kg could not exist in an infinite universe


    How many times...? When we weigh 1kg, we don't weigh it as a fraction of the entire universe. We only weigh it relative to another mass. The relation between the two is what defines the weight, not the universe we are in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    1kg could not exist in an infinite universe, as anything inside the universe would subject to the same limitations as the universe itself. The infinite size of the universe would dictate that every part of it shared the same properties as the the whole i.e. infinity. This would mean that every part of an infinite universe would share infinite mass and size.
    1kg could only ever exist in a non infinite universe.
    It doesn't matter how many times you repeat this. It is still wrong.

    What's that? You want proof? OK.

    The set of integers is an infinite set. The set of integers between 0 and 10 is not an infinite set.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    How can it be possible for a part of infinity not be infinite? It simply can't, every part of infinity is also infinite and we are not infinite there fore the universe cannot be infinite.
    As I already told you, we do not measure things within the universe as fractions of the whole. All we do is measure one thing in relation to the other, like for example how many meter sticks fit into a given distance. We don't measure the distance as a fraction of the entire universe. Mesurements within the universe are only relational, not absolute.
    The point is since we are inside the universe we occupy a part of the universe which is by it's very definition a fraction or percentage, no matter how small, and just because we don't measure parts against the whole doesn't mean we can't or won't be able to.

    Clearly the space we occupy has measureable size and is still a fraction of the whole which means when the size of the space we occupy is divided by the fraction of the universe the space is then the size of the universe can be calculated to a finite figure.
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    Are you familiar with integration in mathematics ? The area under a curve is divided into infinitely many pieces. You then calculate the sum of all those infinitely many pieces ( integration )...and what do you get ? A finite number for the area under the curve. By your reasoning this shouldn't be possible, but it is mathematical fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The point is since we are inside the universe we occupy a part of the universe which is by it's very definition a fraction or percentage
    No it isn't, that is what I am trying to tell you ! We do not define a part of the universe as a fraction of the whole, this is where you misunderstanding is. You are thinking the wrong way round - if anything, we can define the universe as being multiples of the fundamental length ( the Planck length ), not the fundamental length as being a fraction of the whole universe. These two definitions are not reversible !

    Clearly the space we occupy has measureable size and is still a fraction of the whole
    No, because if the universe is infinitely large, then the notion of "fraction of the whole" is no longer mathematically defined. It is analogous to a division by zero, which is not defined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Are you familiar with integration in mathematics ? The area under a curve is divided into infinitely many pieces. You then calculate the sum of all those infinitely many pieces ( integration )...and what do you get ? A finite number for the area under the curve. By your reasoning this shouldn't be possible, but it is mathematical fact.
    That is not correct or absolute, it is not possible to divide, add, multiply or subtract from infinity and the current level of human mathmatics doesn't allow absolutely computing infinity in any way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    The point is since we are inside the universe we occupy a part of the universe which is by it's very definition a fraction or percentage, no matter how small, and just because we don't measure parts against the whole doesn't mean we can't or won't be able to.
    The point is, since the integers from 0 to 10 are inside the set of natural numbers they occupy a part of of the natural numbers which is by it's very definition a fraction or percentage, no matter how small, and just because we don't measure parts against the whole doesn't mean we can't or won't be able to.

    So does that mean there are infinitely many integers between 0 and 10? Or that the set of natural numbers is finite? If the latter, perhaps you could tell me exactly how many natural numbers there are?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    One thing people fail when thinking of this is "If everything is possible and time is infinite, everything we can think/dream of will happen" when a person counter arguments this with "So magic can happen? People can shoot flame out of their hands in one universe because I can imagine it? Right..." then the simple answer is that this universe can have evolution and elements in nature that allows it to happen.

    ( just to be clear, are you thinking of several universes existing at the same time or one universe that cycles through things like the big crunch theory)
    A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it. - David Stevens
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    That is not correct or absolute, it is not possible to divide, add, multiply or subtract from infinity and the current level of human mathmatics doesn't allow absolutely computing infinity in any way.
    You are confusing what you personally know about mathematics with what the rest of the world knows. We have had arithmetic defined on infinite numbers for quite a while now. Perhaps you should study something before making meaningless statements?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    That is not correct or absolute, it is not possible to divide, add, multiply or subtract from infinity and the current level of human mathmatics doesn't allow absolutely computing infinity in any way.
    I repeat myself - it is mathematical fact. It is called "calculus", specifically the areas of functional differentiation and integration, and is a fundamental building block of mathematics. This has been known since Newton in the 1600s. If you believe it or not is totally irrelevant. You can find the details in any calculus textbook, it's basic stuff.
    Btw, we don't deal with "infinities", we deal only with limits and sums. And those are well defined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    That is not correct or absolute, it is not possible to divide, add, multiply or subtract from infinity and the current level of human mathmatics doesn't allow absolutely computing infinity in any way.
    You are confusing what you personally know about mathematics with what the rest of the world knows. We have had arithmetic defined on infinite numbers for quite a while now. Perhaps you should study something before making meaningless statements?
    I think I was getting to involved there, but the rest of you guys have fun with your discussion I'm off to post to another topic somewhere a bit less complicated. Laters.
    Last edited by Ascended; April 20th, 2012 at 09:07 AM. Reason: came accross wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    I think that was getting just a bit to personal for me, but the rest of you guys have fun with your discussion I'm off to post to another topic somewhere a bit more polite.
    I see nothing personal in Strange's post.
    Anyway, good luck to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    I think that was getting just a bit to personal for me, but the rest of you guys have fun with your discussion I'm off to post to another topic somewhere a bit more polite.
    Nothing personal in that; just pointing out that you know even less mathematics than I do. (And that is saying something.) I don't see how that is a personal attack. There are plenty of things I know almost nothing about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    I think that was getting just a bit to personal for me, but the rest of you guys have fun with your discussion I'm off to post to another topic somewhere a bit more polite.
    I see nothing personal in Strange's post.
    Anyway, good luck to you.
    Hey no I didn't mean anyone was being offensive, I was just getting a bit involved and you guys were shooting me down a bit with things I didn't really understand.
    Anyway laters.
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