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Thread: Hawkins brilliant but why rewarded for his thoughts on erroneous big bang.

  1. #1 Hawkins brilliant but why rewarded for his thoughts on erroneous big bang. 
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    I think the order that can seen in nature, planets, dark matter, the string theory has promise.


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    I am not sure how the title of the thread relates to your first post. Would you like to expand your thoughts?


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    Who's Hawkins?
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    Yes, i mean no disrepect to steven Hawkins he is brilliant. But seem to deny that there is a higher power so evident in the design of all things known , and we are finding maybe things unknow as well. I want his reaction this The "Penrose circles" pose a huge challenge to inflationary theory because this theory says that the distribution of temperature variations across the sky should be Gaussian, or random, rather than having discernable structures within it.
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    Sorry i misspelled name ! Stephen Hawking: God was not needed to create the UniverseThe Big Bang was the result of the inevitable laws of physics and did not need God to spark the creation of the Universe, Stephen Hawking has concluded.
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    Looks like "Penrose circles" have had a pretty good run for not-very-much over at physicsforums.

    Penrose Gurzadyan fire back: new paper today

    You'll need a great deal more than 'this looks interesting' to advance this hypothesis.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    But seem to deny that there is a higher power so evident in the design of all things known , .
    The majority of scientists are atheist or agnostic, so I am not clear why you single out Stephen Hawkings for this. I agree with you that certain aspects of the character of the universe are suggestive of design, but there are alternative explanations that are equally or more plausible.
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    I am not singling Hawkins out , yes I respect his achievements in spite of his muscular disease, others respect him that's clear Microsoft and others are rushing to give him voice again. But the respect I have for isaac newton, Einstein, and other is based or their efforts to prove a designer. I bought a Mercedes , did not maintain it it sat in my back yard for 10 years, it deteriorated. Is it wonderful to see nature rejuvenate it self?The car continued to decay. Lack of knowledge of the observer does not prove a lack of a designer. The lack knowledge oft leads to bad design. I have yet to see bad design in nature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    But the respect I have for isaac newton, Einstein, and other is based or their efforts to prove a designer.
    Well, you should not respect them for that. You should respect them for their scientific achievements. And Einstein did absolutely nothing to "prove a designer".

    I have yet to see bad design in nature.
    The human body is full of examples of "bad" design; i.e. things that we would do better if we could start over.
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    I have yet to see bad design in nature.
    Ask any woman with problems in childbirth or other reproductive issues about the possibilities for a better designed process.

    Same thing goes for people with sinus or back or hip problems - most of these arise because we have much the same structures as animals that walk on all fours and this can be incompatible with our upright stance.

    Nature's pretty good on general principles, but doesn't give a fig about how the overall plan affects individual organisms.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Yes, i mean no disrepect to steven Hawkins he is brilliant. But seem to deny that there is a higher power
    Lots of people would deny that. So what? After all, it's not exactly science, is it.
    Last edited by Strange; January 16th, 2012 at 08:40 AM.
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    Penrose is on the right track ."Although the structures studied certainly cannot contradict the power spectrum, which is well fitted by LCDM model, we particularly emphasize that the low variance circles occur in concentric families, and this key fact cannot be explained as a purely random effect. It is, however a clear prediction of conformal cyclic cosmology". I was eagerly awaiting man's ability to look into infinity. I am not surprised to find concentric circles At the end of the rainbow. The circle is such a perfect design. Perhaps Hawkings view of some collision may have caused a rippling effect , but not a perfect circle.
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    Your insipid analogy of child birth, makes me feel for you. If you have been present during a child birth most scientist or layperson are in awe. If you examine the birthing process you quickly discover how very wonderfully planned it is. Imagine the change a fetus endures, how to adapt from breathing fluid to breathing air. How is it that the heart closes the hole in a moment. Clearly humans have defect. But so do cars you don't deny that the ford designer existences because the seat belts don't work.. I'm sure Pasteur could argue design much better than we. I bet you still believe in Lucy and Neanderthal's.
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    Your insipid analogy of child birth, makes me feel for you
    Insipid??!!

    My name might tell you that I'm a woman. I've certainly been "present" during childbirth. Awe doesn't begin to cover it.

    More importantly, several weeks in hospital before one of those childbirth events were spent in the company of women with desperately serious problems with their current pregnancy or who were there because of the deaths of children in previous pregnancies. Some, like me, had less 'serious' problems - but they were enough to have us in wheelchairs or on crutches.

    Of course we were in a modern hospital in an advanced economy country. Had we been born in an earlier century or in another place, we might have had other problems to deal with. Addis Ababa Fistula Hospital Ethiopia
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    I have yet to see bad design in nature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Clearly humans have defect.
    Is this moving the goalposts or the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

    "I have yet to see bad design; well not that bad anyway; well it could be worse; OK it is a disaster but not 'bad'; well, not 'bad bad' ..."

    But so do cars you don't deny that the ford designer existences because the seat belts don't work..
    I thought your designer was perfect, though.

    I'm sure Pasteur could argue design much better than we.
    Another fallacy: argument from authority.

    I bet you still believe in Lucy and Neanderthal's.
    What are all those Neanderthal fossils then?
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    But seem to deny that there is a higher power so evident in the design of all things known
    Oh. It's you again.

    Hello you.

    Mind-monkey off his meds again? The little scamp.

    @Strange: A valiant effort but pointless. I suspect those posts are on wheels with plenty of tread. :/
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    easy for you to say , have a Valium.
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    I respect your medical difficulty. I also have offered this tweet"Founded by Drs. Reginald and Catherine Hamlin, both obstetrician/gynaecologists, in 1974 the Addis Ababa Fistula Hospital provides care for women obstetric fistulas ‐ the most devastating of all childbirth injuries. The Hospital has a success/cure rate of over 90%. We aim to be the world leader in Training and Research for the treatment, care & prevention of obstetric fistula". Yet still some would have you believe that science is infallible. It would seem that the beauty of creation would warm even the coldest scientific mind, to a veiw of intelligent design. Some tout such strict ..scientific methods which does yield some results, but won't you agreed that most major discoveries are stumbled upon by intuitive persons?
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    Further why use method , trials, and track results . Why not just sit in the lab and wait for and accident to occur? Thank god for the trial and error methods of the Hubble team and the repairs made to correct the defects subsequently. Our knowledge of the universes has exploded.
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    Dear Strange, I may act like a monkey, but I make a choice to do so. You are making a choice also to have as your ancestor Homo Erectus. I assure, you may go out and dig up all kind of bones wire them together, make artist conceptions of man's supposed evolutionary ascent if you wish. Neither you or anyone that I know was present 1 million or 300,000 thousand years ago, who knows what Hairy creature existed. I do think DNA differences between obvious great apes and homo sapiens can not be explained as just junk debri. You lil cute money you.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Yet still some would have you believe that science is infallible. It would seem that the beauty of creation would warm even the coldest scientific mind, to a veiw of intelligent design. Some tout such strict ..scientific methods which does yield some results, but won't you agreed that most major discoveries are stumbled upon by intuitive persons?
    The irony about your misunderstanding of scientist is most of them are intuitive.
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    Lynx Fox, as crafty as you are you have misdiagnose the argument, yes it does appear that I have moved the goal post. I respect the skilled surgeon, I just have a desire for him to not throw pills at me. Let him use his god given talent and intuition to cure my problem. My argument has to do men such as hawking denying the very existent of what made them great. (I don't think that I have killed cat. (' The cat still remains alive and in good health").
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    Besides the point that surgeons aren't usually scientist, I getting to the point that for whatever reason you think they aren't using intuition to make good diagnosis of your syptoms? Like scientist, good doctors are probably intuitive by their very nature. That they've actually studied nature in great detail makes them better at using their intuition--not worse.

    I don't think Hawkings so much as rejects god, as simple points out that creation isn't necessary to explain our universe (and certainly not as told by any religion), much as you might reject god as necessary for lightning regardless of countess generations before you who attributed it to Thor and other mythologies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Yet still some would have you believe that science is infallible.
    Who does that? Name one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Yet still some would have you believe that science is infallible.
    Who does that? Name one.
    Indeed. In fact one of the central themes of science are that there are no absolute truths and nothing cannot be refuted if there was sufficient evidence to do so. In many ways the direct opposite of most theist thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Neither you or anyone that I know was present 1 million or 300,000 thousand years ago, who knows what Hairy creature existed......
    Good point. Would you be kind enough to send me the email of someone who was present at the crucifixion, so I can get a first hand account. Or, perhaps given their age, if they are not comfortable using computers, their address would be sufficient.
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  28. #27  
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    1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, and 34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, and 34
    I don't think Leonardo, Fibonacci, or Dan Brown were present at the crucifixion, so how is your last post relevant to the last supper, or the events following?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Further why use method , trials, and track results .
    Because it works.

    Why not just sit in the lab and wait for and accident to occur?
    Because that is an inefficient waste of time.

    Thank god for the trial and error methods of the Hubble team and the repairs made to correct the defects subsequently.
    I would rather thank those responsible for fixing it: the engineers and scientists.

    I assume there was supposed to be some sort of ironic point being made but, if so, I have no idea what it was. You might be better off being less cryptic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, and 34
    I assume there was supposed to be some sort of point being made there but, if so, I have no idea what it was. You might be better off being less cryptic.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    I assure, you may go out and dig up all kind of bones wire them together, make artist conceptions of man's supposed evolutionary ascent if you wish.
    You could do that but it would quickly be detected as a fake by people who understand things like anatomy, human evolution, etc.

    You can't really use your ignorance as the basis for a convincing argument. Unfortunately for you, there are people around who know what they are talking about.
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, and 34
    I assume there was supposed to be some sort of point being made there but, if so, I have no idea what it was. You might be better off being less cryptic.
    Refer to my post 28. The numbers are a Fibonacci sequence, as used by Dan Brown in the da Vinci code. I think Mevans was trying to show how smart he was, but instead he has come across as trite. Modesty would suit him better, since he has much to be modest about.
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  34. #33  
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    My Dear arrogant Scientist(s),

    I was not in any way being cute, but my next research will be this : Does knowledge make one arrogant or does arrogance beget knowledge. Does our quest for knowledge mean that you step on any new sprouts of thought? Is group thought the essence of the body of science. Because you overbear others with your memorized books of science (s), does that make an individual cower in the face of your expressed pre-conceived notions.
    Does science dictate that when others exprees a viewpoint( whether they are considererd novice or not) and the desire to understand the universe. He be stomped upon, kill the thought before it dare grow. Who are these keepers of traditional thought, these ones who arrogantly stand in the way of fresh thought or voice how old thought should be relooked?
    I stand resolute in my so called ignorance, but unlike you I am eagerly awaiting new discoveries yes even the result of 168 new darwinian samples that suddenly and conviently appeared lost since 1850. What do these new fossil samples and slides hold in the way of knowledge. Are they to going to prove the blind man Darwin correct. WHy did he marry a reverends daughter, why did he chose as a mentor A reverend. I guess godless men have to get spirituality from some point. I for one, will wait for the data from these lost samples, but I will not let another tell me that it proves a mindless governace of the universe.
    I suggest that you review your god Hawking's latest utterance which become fewer.. Maybe he can entice you to consider your own overated perception of your group think: "remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet". "Try to make sense of what you see and wonder about what makes the universe exist," he added. "Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at."
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  35. #34  
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    I don't think you understand how science works. It is not about what The Books say, or about what Hawking or Darwin say, it is about what the evidence shows. You can't pick and choose which bits of science you think are right because they fir with your opinions.

    And that is the trouble with this whole thread; you are criticizing one man's personal opinion and using that to attack science and scientists in general.

    You seem to assume everyone will agree with Hawking's opinion re God simply because he is Hawking. In fact, most articles I have read about his comments seem to disagree with him. But I don't really care either way. He is as entitled to his opinion as you are. But it ain't science.

    And, going back to the title of the thread, in what way has he been "rewarded"? And did you mean "his thoughts on erroneous big bang" or "his erroneous thoughts on big bang"; i.e. do you disagree with the big bang theory or just Hawking's interpretation of the significance of it?
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  36. #35  
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    Does knowledge make one arrogant or does arrogance beget knowledge.
    I doubt that 'arrogance ' is the right word for what you wnat to say. But if you're thinking that more knowledge and skill makes a person arrogant about that level of skill you'd be mistaken. It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

    the effect can be applied to two causes of incorrect judgement of incompetence, intelligence and skill. A less intelligent person who is less aware of the world around them may think they are very smart and knowledgeable because they are unaware of the vast amount of information that they don't posses, while a highly intelligent person who is highly aware of the world around them grasps that there is so much more for them to learn and comprehend, leading him to believe that he isn't very smart, and has just scratched the surface of intelligence.

    This leads to a 'dumb people think they're smart and smart people think they're dumb' scenario that ....
    The Dunning-Kruger Effect: Misconceptions about Incompetence

    (Though I'll grant you that the robust, blunt, and often downright rude, tone of discussion around a table full of physics students might give a different impression.)
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    The dunning-Kruger effect, thanks adelaide you complete me. I applaude your thoughts. But as for others I am really concerned it appears that their scotoma, along with enflated ego Is preventing them from transferring their supposed learning to others.However please go easy on us lower forms of life" who have yet to climb to the next step of the evolutionary ladder of existence. In a few years I look forward to joining you and the other great apes. Wherever this ladder Leads us to. I'm sleepy now, time for my meds...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    My Dear arrogant Scientist(s),

    I was not in any way being cute,
    You were being obscure.

    Science is about sharing knowledge.
    Science is about working diligently to explain things.
    Science is about sharing knowledge openly.
    Science is about being as direct as possible.
    Science is about answering questions.
    Science is about honesty.

    In your post of the Fibonacci sequence you were adhering to none of these things. Pointing this out was not arrogance on my part, but objective assessment of a trite, presumptuous, arrogant action. If I have misinterpreted your intent, that is down to your obscure, ambiguous, unclear communication. It is your responsibility to make yourself understood. If you are deliberately obtuse it is unethical to blame the reader for any misinterpretation.
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    Dear John Galt, I applaude you. In one moment of purity you dispelled a lot of my misconception. I awake each day with the desire to learn. Because I learn does not mean I understand breath and width. But I do desire to understand why and how. I feel a great deal of angst for fellow humans that will not share. I also feel the same about myself when I don't listen or show that I have listen. ( oft to bed I go, right brain has told left brain to shut up!) Ps David Dunning is funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Dear John Galt, I applaude you. In one moment of purity you dispelled a lot of my misconception. I awake each day with the desire to learn. Because I learn does not mean I understand breath and width. But I do desire to understand why and how. I feel a great deal of angst for fellow humans that will not share. I also feel the same about myself when I don't listen or show that I have listen. ( oft to bed I go, right brain has told left brain to shut up!) Ps David Dunning is funny.
    Very well then, will you state what was the intention of your post of the Fibonacci sequence? In the absence of an explanation from you the most reasonable explanation is the one I gave in post #32. Is that what you want us to think?
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    John, you are of course free to think as you will. I became interested in Fibonacci so time ago, was not aware of a movie about him. I have enjoyed reading his veiw on prime numbers as well irrational numbers. was never aware of the golden ratio ,golden rectangle, I was amazed that so much information was not tauted by school teachers. Since ancient artist, and even today this math is used heavily in the arts. I love nature and when I was able to see this formulas present in the sea shell curve , a sun flower, the curve of galaxies, the human finger print. It is logical that any designer would leave his mark on his work. So why shouldn't god leave his mark on his creations. I also enjoyed the arguments made byVasilios GardiakosRead for yourself:"Throughout the many centuries pi (π) has been examined and dissected in countless ways. The fascination with pi continues to the present. To this day no one has noticed anything unusual about pi.When I was eighteen years I noticed the 3_4_5 right at the start of pi. I thought it odd that the Pythagorean triplet would begin right at the start of pi but gave it no more thought. Years later I noticed the 1_1_2 at the start of the square root of two and thought that this discovery was strange. These two oddities both at the same position fanned my curiosity. During the many years of examining pi (π), √2 and S I found that these three constants have a very odd interwoven relationship which I illustrate in Document A.*These what I call oddities could not have been made by chance alone on pi, our most popular constant, √2 and S so therefore must been made intentionally. If these oddities are the result of chance alone then one should expect these oddities to appear on many random numbers. This is not the case.Only one entity could manipulate these three constants to produce oddities that we can detect. Only one entity could do this specifically on these three constants and not on other numbers. It seems that God not only could but has formed the geometry of space and even defined the fundamentals of mathematics. He ingeniously manipulated the geometric fabric and the default mathematics of the universe so that we can detect and analyze the oddities and conclude that only a great intelligence can accomplish this and therefore we can know that God exists. " These argument have a ring of truth
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    Sorry. No paragraphs. Did not read.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Would you now cease your avoiding tactics and answer post #26.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mevans View Post
    Only one entity could do this specifically on these three constants and not on other numbers.
    Praise be to Vishnu.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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