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Thread: Converting a proton to an equal volume of electrons -- effects?

  1. #1 Converting a proton to an equal volume of electrons -- effects? 
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    Hi:


    The "greasy proton to electron converter" is a sci-fi force that affects the lipid molecules without directly or perceptibly affecting other entities [note, the words "directly" and "perceptibly"]. This force travels in a manner similar to that of an 60 Hz alternating electric current -- except it has an affinity for lipids.


    As this force passes through lipids, it causes the protons present in the lipid molecules of its path to be instantly converted to an equal size of electrons -- because a proton is bigger than an electron, this means that each single proton will obviously convert to more than one electron.


    If this force were to exist, what medical effects would it have? What injuries -- if any -- could result from it?


    What would be the environmental affects of this force? Would it cause oil spills in the ocean to mix with the water?

    What perceptible effects would this force have on a stick of unsalted butter?



    Thanks a bunch,


    GX


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  3. #2  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Xenon View Post
    because a proton is bigger than an electron, this means that each single proton will obviously convert to more than one electron.
    You seem to be concerned with conservation of mass there while ignoring conservation of charge (and several other conserved quantities). You might as well suggest that each proton will be turned into a tiny unicorn.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    You seem to be concerned with conservation of mass
    Volume, not mass.
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  5. #4  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    The volume of an electron is uncertain; it's charge and invariant mass are constant. Which do you think would be more important to conserve?
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  6. #5  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Xenon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    You seem to be concerned with conservation of mass
    Volume, not mass.
    Electrons are usually treated as point particles with no volume.

    I don't know why you think volume would be relevant anyway. Boil water and you get a larger volume of steam; the mass stays the same though.
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  7. #6  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Boil water and you get a larger volume of steam; the mass stays the same though.
    Strictly speaking the water gains a tiny amount of mass... Oops, I'm being disruptive :s
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle View Post
    The volume of an electron is uncertain; it's charge and invariant mass are constant. Which do you think would be more important to conserve?
    Mass, in this case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Electrons are usually treated as point particles with no volume.
    Do protons have volume?
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    There seem to be so many cases of proton-toxicity and electron-deficiency -- leading to disasters. I'm just wondering what the effects of electron-poisoning and proton-inadequacy would be -- particularly in greasy substances, such as butter.

    It's my way of hoplelessly trying to solve a serious problem by creating an equally-severe but opposite problem.
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  11. #10  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Xenon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Electrons are usually treated as point particles with no volume.
    Do protons have volume?
    Yes, proton diameter is (latest measurement) 0.8768 femtometers.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Green Xenon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Electrons are usually treated as point particles with no volume.
    Do protons have volume?
    Yes, proton diameter is (latest measurement) 0.8768 femtometers.
    That means in the scenario I'm describing, the proton would be replaced by a collection of electrons that initially take up 0.8768 femtometers of space. Eventually this collection will rip itself apart because like-charges repel each other.
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    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Xenon View Post
    Hi:


    The "greasy proton to electron converter" is a sci-fi force that affects the lipid molecules without directly or perceptibly affecting other entities [note, the words "directly" and "perceptibly"]. This force travels in a manner similar to that of an 60 Hz alternating electric current -- except it has an affinity for lipids.


    As this force passes through lipids, it causes the protons present in the lipid molecules of its path to be instantly converted to an equal size of electrons -- because a proton is bigger than an electron, this means that each single proton will obviously convert to more than one electron.


    If this force were to exist, what medical effects would it have? What injuries -- if any -- could result from it?


    What would be the environmental affects of this force? Would it cause oil spills in the ocean to mix with the water?

    What perceptible effects would this force have on a stick of unsalted butter?



    Thanks a bunch,


    GX
    First of all, this entire concept is Sci-Fi, nothing more. It is not possible to replace protons with electrons in matter.
    If it were possible, than the atomic structure of the object in question would be destroyed; the matter would be converted into a heap of free electrons and neutrons.
    Macroscopically this would most likely result in a phenomenal flash of light, followed by the death of all observers due to beta irradiation. Not pleasant.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Xenon View Post
    There seem to be so many cases of proton-toxicity and electron-deficiency -- leading to disasters. I'm just wondering what the effects of electron-poisoning and proton-inadequacy would be -- particularly in greasy substances, such as butter.

    It's my way of hoplelessly trying to solve a serious problem by creating an equally-severe but opposite problem.
    If you change the number of protons in any atom, that atom becomes a different element.

    And I agree with the other posters - this is purely sci-fi (emphasis on the "fi")
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  15. #14  
    Moderator Moderator Janus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    [

    First of all, this entire concept is Sci-Fi, nothing more. It is not possible to replace protons with electrons in matter.
    If it were possible, than the atomic structure of the object in question would be destroyed; the matter would be converted into a heap of free electrons and neutrons.
    Macroscopically this would most likely result in a phenomenal flash of light, followed by the death of all observers due to beta irradiation. Not pleasant.
    Then, in time the free neutrons would decay into protons and electrons, and eventually settle down into hydrogen atoms.

    But as you say, this is all fiction (or maybe more aptly, fantasy).
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  16. #15  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Xenon View Post
    That means in the scenario I'm describing, the proton would be replaced by a collection of electrons that initially take up 0.8768 femtometers of space. Eventually this collection will rip itself apart because like-charges repel each other.
    Yes, except this is fundamentally impossible. As previously explained, volume is irrelevant, while mass and charge must be conserved.

    A proton could decay into a number of different systems of mesons, leptons/antileptons and neutrinos/antineutrinos, but this has never been observed.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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