Thread: A death isn't a problem?

Hello
My name is Sebastian. I created this topic because I have serious question about our civilizations most feared issue- death. I dont want creaate a simple topic when I ask a short question and wait for full, interesting answer, so I want expleineid it, shortly why I even tried to create this topic on this forum.

Im 21 and for past 5 years Im troubled with death. I don't belevie in god, which means that Im aware that after death, its total oblivion/nothingness. Ok, so your probably thinking right now "Why this guy isnt writing this on psychological forum or go to specialist?". Im going to tell you why. Since I was a kid, I believed in science. Science did save me from alot of fears. Ghost fears, boogeymans, monsters. Not by simply telling myself that they arent real, but by proving it by science that it is IMPOSSIBLE, to fear something that doesn't exist. In my teen years, science also didn't let me believe in some SUPER GALACTIC TRAGEDIES that will happen in near future, 2012 scam, active black holes in the center of the earth and everything which paranoics create just to do another conspiracy or apocalyptical scenario. So science didn't give up on me then, it proved that by logical reasoning I can't be terrorised by something created on nothing.

So I wrote that Im 21 and I have strong death anxiety. Unluckly for me, my knowledge and experience about death aren't big enough to convince me that there is nothing to be feared about and that this fear is irrational. I cannot simply think calmly about non-existing in ages, bilions of years. I know, the non existence isn't scary, we cannot feel it so we cannot feel unhappy, but everytime I think about this , it comes to me that even if Im am calm now, someday I will have seconds before facing the final end. And there will be no possible things to do to through away this terryfing fear of near end.


Members of this forum, I didn't create this topic to write my fears in public and feel realesed. I created this topic because I belevie that everyone is or had fear of death, but somehow they deal with it by explaining it to themselves in the right way. So once again Im beleving that science will and knowledge will show that they are stronger that any fear.

P.S.-I dont like writing long post because I think they are boring to others, but I couldnt just throw few words with question mark and expect to be threated seriously


Hanabishi

What is your actual question? Iv felt the same way, i think its one of the main reasons i seem to cling to believing in a god.

I dont think many people are scared of death per se. More that people are scared of a long drawn out death, such as a serious illness.

Yes you are right most people fear death at some point or another, even if they are not in direct danger.

May I ask you how fit you are?

In my experience I feel most assured when im strong and fit. I feel like I could take on a lion if I had to.

If you're not already doing so, take up some serious excercise. A bit of cardio and strength training will help you out.

Oh and FYI, I wouldn't put my faith in science for these sort of things.

Just realize that everyone on earth is agnostic, whether they admit it or not...people are just looking for a way to explain away pain and suffering and turn it into something more emotionally satisfying...pain+suffering=being christ-like=martyrdom...obviously...

I read somewhere just recently, " Men Talk About Killing Time, But Secretly It Is Killing Them "

Most people simply mostly deny it's existence, especially the slow and horrible dying of old age. That is a bad thing, because modern medicine coud probably prevent it, but almost no research is being done. It's called "learned helplesness" - when we are unable to prevent something bad for a long time, we no longer attempt to prevent it even if the situation changes.

Also, a great article about this:
http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html

Fear of death is an instinct that helps to keep us alive. However, we humans may be the only critters that know we are going to die. People who believe in an afterlife may use that belief to help stop worrying about it, but they don't entirely succeed, except in extreme cases like the cultists in Jonestown or Muslim suicide bombers.

Lots of people who don't believe in an afterlife manage not to worry excessively, probably by just pushing it to the back of their minds. A bit of nihilism might help.

Fear of death is perfectly rational if thought in evolutionary terms.

I've been with a lot of people as and when they die, young and old, religious or not, and fear is always there to some degree. But it can be eased, often chemically at the moment, but just talking about it is enough for people. You can only tell by asking them, though not always possible.

Originally Posted by Twit of wit

Most people simply mostly deny it's existence, especially the slow and horrible dying of old age. That is a bad thing, because modern medicine coud probably prevent it, but almost no research is being done. It's called "learned helplesness" - when we are unable to prevent something bad for a long time, we no longer attempt to prevent it even if the situation changes.

Absolutely agree. Many of the problems with end of life/palliative research comes from difficulty with consent and ethics; doing research at the moment of someone's death. Even if a patient agrees to participate in a study, often family members will stop what they see as an intrusion. Palliative care researchers get laughed at when they manage to get say 50 people in a study, while most other clinical researchers can boast hundreds to thousands.

As a Christian, I enjoy a vision of a very happy ever after (and try not to become eligible for the other option). I sincerely recommend embracing this religion, although I will not try to prove its veracity.

However, I also have a few thoughts that may help you as an atheist, and especially an atheist with a scientific mind.

Remember that time is the fourth dimension?

Now I don't suppose you are worried about being finite in the first three. When you stand on the floor, your head does not reach the ceiling in an average office. Your outstretched arms wouldn't span the Gibraltar Strait, let alone the Cassini Division. But somehow you don't (hopefully) lose much sleep about not extending indefinitely in length, width or height. You accept it that there is a volume of roughly 0.1 cubic meter of space where you are, and a really huge big volume (the rest of the universe) where you are not. You are not trying to change that - what really matters is that this 0.1m3 be filled with healthy tissues properly functioning.

Why not think about time in the same way? We are offered a certain duration of it, roughly 0.1 millennium. Before that period, there were eons when we did not exist. After that period, there will be more eons when we will not be in this world. So be it - let's just make sure this 0.1millennium is a good time.

Does this make sense?

Prometheus: O don't think you understand what I mean. I mean research of aging itself. I mean - aging kills an order of magnitude more people than AIDS, (even if we include sub-saharean Africa) yet it's research is almost nonexistent. The denial goes so far it was even removed as a valid cause of death.
You don't need terminally ill people for experiments, mice will do. They are actually even better, because they age much faster.

Originally Posted by Twit of wit

Prometheus: O don't think you understand what I mean. I mean research of aging itself. I mean - aging kills an order of magnitude more people than AIDS, (even if we include sub-saharean Africa) yet it's research is almost nonexistent. The denial goes so far it was even removed as a valid cause of death.
You don't need terminally ill people for experiments, mice will do. They are actually even better, because they age much faster.

Ah, totally misunderstood. You mean research into non-senescence? As i understand this is undergoing a boom in cancer research. One of the traits of many cancer cells is non-senescence due to the presence of the enzyme telomerase. I think non-senescence research will be fine as long as cancer researchers keep looking at this particular feature of malignant cells in their efforts to find cures.

Also, got to disagree with animal models for palliative research unless you are just referring to non-senescence - in which case it will have to be tested on humans at some point. But that's curative not palliative so i think i'm just getting wires mixed up again.

Death doesent exist.

When you are, death is not. When death is, you are not.

Yeah, and that creates an ethical problem: the person dead does not care how they died. Consider a person who will die in a black box - does it matter how that person dies, if nobody knows?

Originally Posted by Raziell

When you are, death is not. When death is, you are not.

This point was raised by one of the ancient philosophers; can anybody please tell me which one?

Death doesent exist.

When you are, death is not. When death is, you are not.

Pure solipsism and fallacy ! It will mean that the universe does not exist outside of your own existence.
In addition, please consider that "BEING DEAD" is an indo european locution. In many language, being dead is a verb of action, different of dying. In igbo, as I stated before, you are not dead, you have death.

Always consider philosophical questions outside of your culture, it might help to solve it.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

Originally Posted by Raziell

When you are, death is not. When death is, you are not.

This point was raised by one of the ancient philosophers; can anybody please tell me which one?

Epicurus

This is a normal feeling to have. Keep yourself busy and don't think about it so much.

Originally Posted by Makandal

Death doesent exist.

When you are, death is not. When death is, you are not.

Pure solipsism and fallacy ! It will mean that the universe does not exist outside of your own existence.

Not necessarily..it could mean only that your personal conception of the universe had come to an end. The universe outside of your perception would still exist... you would simply lack modes of sensory input necessary to experience it any longer.

Originally Posted by Makandal

Death doesent exist.

When you are, death is not. When death is, you are not.

Pure solipsism and fallacy !

I never knew what solipsism was before i read your reply. I just always liked the quote because it doesent make sence in any way to be scared of death, as it is irrelevant when it has occured.

The only reasonable thing to be afraid of is HOW you die. As a slow painfull death would be a very unpleasant experience, like being digged down in sand and eaten by army ants

Originally Posted by Raziell

The only reasonable thing to be afraid of is HOW you die.

That's the animal side of you speaking, isn't it? Meanwhile you may reason that, once dead, you won't be around to care either way.

What I said earlier about the person who dies in a black box, with unknown suffering.

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. Isaac Asimov
This is once more a problem of semantic. Philosophy should concentrate on the noumenon, in the sense of Kant, not on the phenomenon, or study the relations between noumenon and phenomenon.
Language is bringing a focus on the phenomenon and makes us believe it is the "thing in itself". Wrong !
For example, you talk about "painful death". How can death be painful ? There is nothing as painful death. Death is a 'state' on non-being so there is no sensation. DYING is different. The fact that DYING and DEATH have similar etymological origin in english must not hide that we are talking about 2 different noumenes.
Dying is an 'action'. To the word death, there should be a similar word for the fact of not being born.

I dont think many people are scared of death per se. More that people are scared of a long drawn out death, such as a serious illness.

Yes you are right most people fear death at some point or another, even if they are not in direct danger.

May I ask you how fit you are?

The weird thing is, I dont fear death in that way that I can be killed tomorrow by accident or by being in dangerous place. My mind somehow knows that I cant worry about being killed in everyday life because thats impossible to achieve. If I would try that, I would be in big metal can, probably anti-radiation, with soft pillows inside............but that life wouldn't be so fun. I know that I have like 50y to overcome/understand that fear. But I fear the near-death-time...now I fear it but I can control it in some way, talk about it............but what about the time when illbe 60yo? You know, its like with people who like explosions. When they watch movies or clips on youtube with explosions they think "Wow, thats cool", but if they were near bomb, gas explosion, they would shit bricks (suddenly explosions aren't funny to them).

Originally Posted by sox

Oh and FYI, I wouldn't put my faith in science for these sort of things.

Yes, but but I believe that understanding the fear of unknown (death) can explain the irrationality of it...........I just can't find the right way, thats why I asked question here.

Originally Posted by Leszek Luchowski

As a Christian, I enjoy a vision of a very happy ever after (and try not to become eligible for the other option). I sincerely recommend embracing this religion, although I will not try to prove its veracity.

However, I also have a few thoughts that may help you as an atheist, and especially an atheist with a scientific mind.

Remember that time is the fourth dimension?

Now I don't suppose you are worried about being finite in the first three. When you stand on the floor, your head does not reach the ceiling in an average office. Your outstretched arms wouldn't span the Gibraltar Strait, let alone the Cassini Division. But somehow you don't (hopefully) lose much sleep about not extending indefinitely in length, width or height. You accept it that there is a volume of roughly 0.1 cubic meter of space where you are, and a really huge big volume (the rest of the universe) where you are not. You are not trying to change that - what really matters is that this 0.1m3 be filled with healthy tissues properly functioning.

Why not think about time in the same way? We are offered a certain duration of it, roughly 0.1 millennium. Before that period, there were eons when we did not exist. After that period, there will be more eons when we will not be in this world. So be it - let's just make sure this 0.1millennium is a good time.

Does this make sense?

Yes and no. I understand your point that eons before our birth we didn't feel bad or it wasn't somehow hell for us. As you said, we have 0.1 millienium to live. But its really short time. I know that living in a moment would solve this fear, I tried that but in the back of my mind it looks like running away from the problem, not solving it. Thats the irrationality of my fear. Living forever would be terrible, but living in some peace of time (limited)also is terrible, because whatever we would do, it end (doesn't matter if its good or bad). I realised that I fear most the concept of infinity. Whether I would face oblivion or heaven/hell after death, I can imagine millenium end, bilion of years, eons. But infinity is something I cannot imagine.

Originally Posted by Hanabishi

Living forever would be terrible.

Why? Being afraid of aging is not irrational, it's perfectly rational, because aging kills people. Claiming that it's actually a good thing is irrational.