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View Poll Results: These Important Revolutionary Concepts are Valid,True,and Desrve to be Promoted

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Thread: Primal Therapy:The true CURE for neurosis ...

  1. #1 Primal Therapy:The true CURE for neurosis ... 
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    Primal Therapy as defined by and written about by Dr.Arthur Janov for more than 40 years now, is considered by me and many others to be among the most important discoveries and developments of all time as to the overall happiness and betterment of mankind. At his website, a short, one paragraph statement by him gives a brief overview of what Primal Therapy is all about.
    Please take a brief amount of time to at least read this one short paragraph at: [ http://www.primaltherapy.com ] because you owe it to yourself to become aware of this remarkable cure for mental disorders, Dr. Janov and many others working with him have developed over the last 40 years. If so inclined you can link to many other resources including videos and such discussing different aspects of the therapy, patient interviews and things like that. This is all FREE and NO form of registration or any other form is ever even asked for.
    Just click unto the weblink I provided and take it from there as far as you care to.
    It is worth noting that Dr.Aletha Solter`s many books on the subject of developmental psychology,the best way to rear infants and young children is based on the principals laid down in Dr.Janov`s earlier publications. She has gained a very substantial international following in her own right. A link to her very important work regarding the best infant and child rearing practices is: [ http://www.primalspirit.com/pr2_1solter_tears.htm ]. Please at least peruse these two websites if you are like me, and want to find real answers to our World`s very troubling current state of affairs. Sincerely, ...Dr.Syntax


     

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  3. #2  
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    Hi Dr.Syntax,

    I already debunked your claims about this REPEATEDLY at another site before you were banned, but I'll share the counter points here AGAIN since you seem to have missed them the first ten or twelve times it was shared with you.



    The Five Great Myths of Popular Psychology
    Primal therapy instructs clients to discharge their anger associated with painful emotions experienced in infancy, during birth, and even in utero. To do so, clients must yell, shout obscenities, and kick and hit objects (Singer & Lalich, 1996).

    <...>

    However, a large body of psychological research demonstrates that expressing anger openly is rarely psychologically helpful in the long-run, although it may make people feel slightly better in the short run. Indeed, in most cases, expressing anger actually results in more, not less, long-term anger, raising serious questions concerning the catharsis hypothesis (Lohr, Olatunji, Baumeister, & Bushman, 2006). In a variety of laboratory studies, participants who engage in verbal, written, or physical anger against an aggressor (for example, in a simulated game involving electric shocks) have been found to experience more hostility than participants who did not (Bushman, 2002; Lewis & Bucher, 1992; Warren & Kurlycheck, 1981).

    Now, here's another site which really addresses the faults in detail:
    http://debunkingprimaltherapy.com/



    Finally, there is an incredibly well-referenced wiki article on this idea which shows how plainly it is flawed and without merit. But, you've already seen this, too, so I'm sharing it primarily for others here:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_therapy
    Since [the 1970s], primal therapy has fallen into obscurity, in part because Janov never produced the outcomes studies necessary to demonstrate its effectiveness.

    <...>

    Primal therapy has not achieved broad acceptance in mainstream psychology.[19][20] It has been frequently criticized as lacking outcome studies to prove its effectiveness.[21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28] It is regarded as one of the least creditable forms of psychotherapy.[19]

    Primal therapy has sometimes been criticized as shallow, glib, simplistic, or trendy.[29][30][31][32][33] It has also been criticized for not paying sufficient attention to transference.[34][35] It has also been criticized for its claim that adults can recall infantile experiences, which some researchers believe is impossible.[36] It has also been criticized as being dogmatic or overly reductionist. [30][37]

    <...>

    In 1996, authors Starker and Pankratz published in Psychological reports a study of 300 randomly-sampled psychologists. Participants were asked for their views about the soundness of methods of mental health treatment. Primal therapy was identified as one of the approaches "most in question as to soundness".[20]

    <...>

    Primal therapy is cited in the book The Death of Psychotherapy: From Freud to Alien Abductions. The author claims that all schools of psychotherapy, including primal therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and others, do not have scientific evidence of effectiveness beyond placebo. [42]

    In the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology, Timothy Moore wrote: "Truth be known, primal therapy cannot be defended on scientifically established principles. This is not surprising considering its questionable theoretical rationale." [43]

    <...>

    The National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF) Newsletter listed primal therapy, among other treatments, in the article "Dubious Mental Health."[45]

    That's a LOT of evidence against this idea. I cited peer-reviewed articles showing the foundation of primal therapy to be in question. I cited studies which show the process used by primal therapy to have negative therapeutic outcomes. On top of that, there is no scientific backing to Janov's claims, and his style/technique has never been shown to be effective. The idea is near universally rejected by everybody in the field of psychology and psychotherapy.

    You've already seen all of this, and yet you keep touting this nonsense. I hope you will realize that it's time to stop preaching about this flawed approach to mental health.


     

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    I already debunked your claims about this REPEATEDLY at another site before you were banned, but I'll share the counter points here AGAIN since you seem to have missed them the first ten or twelve times it was shared with you.
    inow; Your reply is totally out of order, aside from not being 100% accurate.

    Actually, he was banned from two forums, in both cases for not knowing how to handle your style of discussion, NOT for his opinions of "primal therapy" or his personal faith in Dr. Janov's work. Second the Doc, is posting a on civil forum, where opinions are apt to be approached in a far different manner than your used to and his post and POLL, was made in 'General Discussion'. Third, the theory and work was widely accepted for a period of long time, still is in much of Europe, especially Germany. Forth, You have debunked nothing. Parts of the theory have not been accepted for EFFECTIVENESS, others are very much part of mainstream psychology today. Fifth; Janov is not himself some quack, operates a rather large Clinic, think in California, has written several books, MANY peer reviewed articles, with thousands of satisfied patients running around today, many like the Beatles are notable. I'll admit his/her passion is bordering bordering on obsession, but do believe you should have given the poster a shot, opposed to another notch on your pistol.

    Doc; If you do come back, after inow's post, I hope you will pursue your arguments, possibly on why this, apparently is so important to you. One of my favorite characters in life was Fred Hoyle (near same time frame as Janov) believed in a Steady State Universe (opposed to Big Bang Theory) until his death in '01' or so, and was a total failure in making or proving his points, however as Janov, made many contributions to his chosen field.
     

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    Fine.

    Let's see some evidence regarding the efficacy of this therapeutic approach. Preferably something peer-reviewed and with a decent population size. A link to Dr. Janov's site simply won't suffice, nor will an appeal to authority where he talks about one other doctor who seems to like Janov's idea.

    Let's see the data. Where's the beef?

    I'm perfectly willing to change my mind and retract my dismissals, but you have to earn it. Without evidence and/or peer-reviewed studies, my criticism of this primal therapy garbage stands and remains unaddressed.


    Also... Thanks for letting me know he's been banned on more than one forum already. I was not aware of that. I only knew of one.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    I already debunked your claims about this REPEATEDLY at another site before you were banned, but I'll share the counter points here AGAIN since you seem to have missed them the first ten or twelve times it was shared with you.
    inow; Your reply is totally out of order, aside from not being 100% accurate.

    Actually, he was banned from two forums, in both cases for not knowing how to handle your style of discussion, NOT for his opinions of "primal therapy" or his personal faith in Dr. Janov's work. Second the Doc, is posting a on civil forum, where opinions are apt to be approached in a far different manner than your used to and his post and POLL, was made in 'General Discussion'. Third, the theory and work was widely accepted for a period of long time, still is in much of Europe, especially Germany. Forth, You have debunked nothing. Parts of the theory have not been accepted for EFFECTIVENESS, others are very much part of mainstream psychology today. Fifth; Janov is not himself some quack, operates a rather large Clinic, think in California, has written several books, MANY peer reviewed articles, with thousands of satisfied patients running around today, many like the Beatles are notable. I'll admit his/her passion is bordering bordering on obsession, but do believe you should have given the poster a shot, opposed to another notch on your pistol.

    Doc; If you do come back, after inow's post, I hope you will pursue your arguments, possibly on why this, apparently is so important to you. One of my favorite characters in life was Fred Hoyle (near same time frame as Janov) believed in a Steady State Universe (opposed to Big Bang Theory) until his death in '01' or so, and was a total failure in making or proving his points, however as Janov, made many contributions to his chosen field.

    REPLY: My Friend, Your support of me and of Dr.Janov`s work means so very, very much to me. I do not know what is going on with this sick little man who calls himself iNow. He seems to be obsessed with harassing me. I made numerous attempts to defuse his apparent hatred of me and ongoing harassment of me. I don`t know why he feels this way towards me, only that he does.
    Your willingness to stand up to iNow says a lot to me about you. He appears to have a lot of influence in that other forum and has managed to create a cadre of followers who will pile on anyone he apposes, and this includes influence with one or more of the moderators. The reason I say that is I was banned from that forum for posting about Primal Therapy of all things. No discussion of Dr. Janov`s crucially important work was ever allowed to take place.
    What iNow did was cobble together a bunch of links to websites ,that had people making derogatory remarks about Dr.Janov and Primal Therapy ,and that was accepted as proof of some sort.
    I have been told by iNow himself that you can always find websites that will support any position you wish to take, for or against just about anything and that it proves nothing. Also, and importantly, Dr. Janov`s work in many ways contradicts and devalues much of what traditional psychiatry is based on.
    The traditionalists seem to accept Frued`s premise, that it is somehow NORMAL that there are these different aspects of our brains, that are perpetually in conflict with each other and their goal is to help a person create and maintain strong defense mechanisms ,to keep repressed feelings at bay,and out of the conscious mind. The fact that neurosis is so universal amongst us human beings,that it was seen by Frued as: NORMAL.
    Anyway,Janov does not accept the premise that a normal healthy brain, is in some state of having to perpetually repress the unconscious mind ,feelings , thoughts or however one chooses to phrase it.
    Janov`s approach to therapy is in many ways the exact opposite. To heal a sick or neurotic mind,brain, one needs to find ways to access those repressed feelings,in such a way as to allow for the patient to express those feelings in such a way as to finally resolve them. Any notion that Primal Therapy is a bunch of mindless screaming and yelling is utter nonsense. Anyone who has taken the trouble to read any of his books would know that is not at all how primal therapy works. Primal Therapy is in many ways the delicate art, of finding ways for a patient to allow himself or herself, to find the means,the ability, to allow these repressed feelings to emerge into the conscious mind, and allow themselves to cry out all this pain and hurt they have spent almost their entire lives suppressing. These feelings arise from within the patients own mind and body, where ever it is those feelings got stored away,which is in a constant state of flux or mobility because these feeling never, ever simply go away. They are always there pressing forth,seeking ways to allow for them to be expressed: the crying,screaming, having that TANTRUM, the parents put a stop to.
    I will take this opportunity to introduce another author: Dr.Aletha Solter, a World renowned authority in the field of developemental psychology. The study of the human brain/mind, while it is developing as in infants and young children. This article is titled :" Understanding Tears and Tantrums" and can be accessed at: [ http://www.awareparenting.com/tantrums.htm ]. If you are the parent of a young child you really should take the time to read this short but informative article.
    Jackson33, you asked me about my own involvement in Primal Therapy. I became involved in it because of a book my father had left a book on an end table of a sort. I was home on a pass from a VA mental hospital. I remember it clearly. I am crying as I type this because I miss my father, he is dead now. And it changed and saved my life. It was titled :"The Primal Scream" by Dr.Arthur Janov . My father said he had thought it was a book about animals in the wild and that he was not interested in it because it was about something quite different and he was not that interested in it. Well, I picked it and began reading it anyway. There wasn`t much of anything to watch on TV back then. I READ THAT BOOK COVER TO COVER. I now knew what was so very wrong with me and how to get the help I so desperately needed. I had ended up in a VA mental hospital within the first year after my Honorable Discharge from the United States Marine Corps.
    I served 2 tours of duty in Viet Nam as a low ranking rifleman. My first tour began in early January of 1968. That year`s big Tet Offensive was getting underway. While us new arrivals were awaiting orders and transportation to our different Units
    we were assigned perimeter duty to protect Da Nang Airbase. It`s was a pretty large complex and sure enough it was attacked that very first night or early morning after my arrival there. I had the opportunity of manning a .50 caliber machine gun. It was quite thrilling really. I exchanged machine gun fire with an opposing machine gunner at quite some distance. This went on for maybe a half hour or so from different points on this section of the perimeter. They did not hit any of us and I doubt we hit any of them.
    That was just the opening rounds so to speak of the many adventures that I was in store for. All kind of actions transpired in the following months culminating for me in mid July of that fateful year for me. I was gutshot at very close range by automatic rifle fire. It knocked me down but I quickly got back up and carried on so to speak. At first I thought I was not hit that bad. There was just a relatively small hole on my right side about 3 or so inches from my the breastbone,where the ribs attach. I did notice I was having difficulty breathing and that my pants were wet and my boots were squishy as I stepped about. I began feeling very odd,something was very wrong with me. I looked at my back and saw a large clump of my insides hanging out my back and noticed this blood pulsating from the big hole there. I looked about me and started walking back toward where I hoped to find someone to help me.
    I eventually found a Corpsman. And he tried to help me but said there wasn`t much he could but get a medivac ordered. It took what seemed like a long time. They were busy that night. After a quick stop at a field hospital I was flown out to one of the hospital ships along with some other men. I was feeling pretty bad by then. Some one stripped me naked and I was put in this room all by myself.
    I didn`t understand why I was left alone on this stainless steel table of some sort. Someone came in and told me they would get to me when they finshed operating on some of the other guys. It was dark and I was so very cold. A priest came in and asked me if I wanted last rites. I told I wasn`t a Catholic but if he thought it might help me to go ahead and do so. I told him I was very cold and needed a blanket. He told me they were short on blankets, but he would try and get a sheet for me. Eventually he came back and placed a sheet over me and left the room.
    I laid there a very long time and began to realize this table I was on had a drain in it and that I was in the morgue I guess you would call it. I became very angry. There was nothing I could do about it. A few hours ago I was a tough young Marine and now I was utterly helpless,alone,and so very,very cold.
    Eventually two men came in and put me on a gurney and wheeled me into the operating room. Obviously I recovered. I eventualy was sent back to the States, was given a 30 day convelence leave. Sent back for another course of advanced infantry training and arrived back in Viet Nam in Janurary of 1969. Just in time for the next Tet offensive. That year in many ways seemed to me in many ways much worse. We were at times engaged with larger Units of well armed NVA soldiers willing to face us in determined assaults . No more hit and run crap. All out assaults by a determined foe who on a few occassions seemed to be under orders to overrun us or die trying which they did and in large numbers . So after all this I figure I got sort of crazy. I just did not care anymore. I quit writing home and wanted to stay in Viet Nam. I really got into the spirit of the war. It felt right to me some how. I had a few friends and we felt this way. We did not take crap from anyone including the NCOs. We were a bit wary of the officers, but they were a bit wary of us also. It was a very weird situation. There fights all the time. No officers dared come into the enlisted men`s area when back at base camp. No one intervened in these fights. Everyone knew you stuck by your friends and when these fights broke out stood with against all comers. We all had rifles,grenades, and knives which we kept with us at all times. We stood watch for each other lest some enemy group try and sneak up on us. I am talking about back at base camp the enemies being fellow Marines who hated you and your group for whatever reason. We were eventually tranferrred to Okinawa and I got reassigned to headquarters company and became an MP. I take pride in the fact that I never arrested anyone. They were all men like me. Either going to or coming back from Viet Nam and I had no desire to make their lives any tougher. I had a great time on Okinowa.
    Well, you can see why I might end up in a mental hospital. After reading Janov`s book I knew what I had to do to get well. I contacted THE PRIMAL INSTITUTE and was told they were all booked up for the next 6 years. They referred me to some other primal therapy centers and I ended up going there and along with getting into primal therapy had a great time being young and all and around all these free thinking women. So, there you have it my friend. Probably a bit more than you expected. By the way, I HAD A GOOD PRIMAL putting certain parts of this response together for you. You are a pal of mine and I won`t forget it.Sincerely, Dr.Syntax
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    The traditionalists seem to accept Frued`s premise that it is somehow NORMAL that there are these different aspects of our brains that are perpetually in conflict with each other and their goal is to help a person create and maintain strong defense mechanisms to keep repressed feelings at bay,and out of the conscious mind. The fact that neurosis is so uniniversal amongst us human beings it was seen by Frued as NORMAL.
    Anyway Janov does not accept the premise that a normal healthy brain is in some state of having to perpetually repress the unconscious mind ,feelings , thoughts or however one chooses to phrase it.
    Many of the most driven and productive people are neurotic. They can't sit still with themselves, so they're forever doing doing doing. Are they happy? No. Are they successful? Often yes, very. Are they good? More or less.

    What should we do about them? Janov wants to cure them: bleed whatever irritants are spurring them, 'till they feel at peace. Why? To make people tranquil and happy above all else?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    The traditionalists seem to accept Frued`s premise that it is somehow NORMAL that there are these different aspects of our brains that are perpetually in conflict with each other and their goal is to help a person create and maintain strong defense mechanisms to keep repressed feelings at bay,and out of the conscious mind. The fact that neurosis is so uniniversal amongst us human beings it was seen by Frued as NORMAL.
    Anyway Janov does not accept the premise that a normal healthy brain is in some state of having to perpetually repress the unconscious mind ,feelings , thoughts or however one chooses to phrase it.
    Many of the most driven and productive people are neurotic. They can't sit still with themselves, so they're forever doing doing doing. Are they happy? No. Are they successful? Often yes, very. Are they good? More or less.

    What should we do about them? Janov wants to cure them: bleed whatever irritants are spurring them, 'till they feel at peace. Why? To make people tranquil and happy above all else?

    REPLY: Hello Pong, I agree with you that many of the most productive members of society are neurotic . As I have clearly stated: neurosis is all but universal as to our species. Some of the most neurotic are the most productive. I agree with you about that. As a counterpoint I wish to point out to you that Adolph Hitler was both highly neurotic and productive in his own way. I, myself, will never look upon neurosis as any sort of a virtue.
    Mankind is not facing the problems and crisis we confront today because of a lack of productivity. No, quite the opposite in my opinion. Technological progress has already outpaced mankind`s ability to adapt to the ever increasing rate of change. In fact the most momentous event in all human history, THE TECHNOLOGICAL SINGULARITY is due to occur within the next 30 years. To learn all about that all but inevitable series of events go to: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity ]. The most consequential event of all time,perhaps in the history of our Universe. How can that be ? We are verging on creating infinitively intelligent AI robots. Or more accurately stated : they will be producing themselves, immortal and godlike. Yes, it`s true.Just maybe with a good bit less neurosis massed about within and around us some sanity will at least have some positive effect. I am planning on having an Omega point bash when that time is upon us. What might that be ? All the usual ingredients BIG TIME. Toss a lot of money into providing for women, alcohol, etc..
    I am quite sure, Dr.Janov is not going to be trying to force anybody into his Primal Therapy. It costs a good deal of money to get therapy at the Janov Center. Well, you never know quite what Dr.Syntax`s response will be do you ? I never do myself. Take Care, ...Dr.Syntax
     

  9. #8  
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    primal therapy costs money?

    that makes me neurotic
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    primal therapy costs money?

    that makes me neurotic

    REPLY: You did not think it was free or did you ? Did you fancy that these highly trained and committed therapists provided this sort of care free of charge ? When is the last time you went to a dentist or doctor ? Maybe never, I don`t know. They won`t treat you if you can`t pay them, a lot,especially dentists.
    Of course there is a good bit of pro bono work for some, now and then. There is the BUDDY SYSTEM where different patients will sit for each other,things like that. Often this would be a couple of people who wanted to get to together for the usual extracuricular activities and such. Just the sort of things you would expect. Primal Therapy gives you permission to quit being a phony and actually ask a person you are attracted to do exactly what you wish to. That does not mean they share your desire and then you can sit and cry about how it feels to be rejected. It`s all very real. It`s called being a real person. ...Dr.Syntax
     

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    Again... Let's see some evidence of efficacy. A link to Janov's site and a mention of one person who likes his idea will not suffice.

    As was explained to you by numerous people, Dr.Syntax... I am not the reason you were banned. Your failure to support your claims with evidence, your rude behavior, and your inability to operate within the rules of the site were what caused your welcome to be permanently rescinded.
     

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    [quote="inow"]Again... Let's see some evidence of efficacy. A link to Janov's site and a mention of one person who likes his idea will not suffice.[/quote



    REPLY: I COULD NOT CARE LESS WHAT YOUR OPINION IS. Do you understand that ?Think what ever you wish to about Primal Therapy, I do not care ! Got That ! ...Dr.Syntax
     

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    It is not "very real," it is an appeal to a certain cultural identity.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    It is not "very real," it is an appeal to a certain cultural identity.
    REPLY: What are you talking about ? Have you ever been involved with a Primal Therapy Group ? All right for you guys who think you know it all. One thing that will happen if Primal is anything like it was when I was actively involved in a group. I had the best sex life before or since while an active member of a Primal group. Well, I did have a very good time while stationed on Okinawa. It was pretty wild there. Close call, but everything considered I had the most rewarding sexual life while an active member of a primal therapy group. Maybe I just got lucky I don`t know. It seems to me , any of the women I wanted to get it on with ended up doing so with me numerous times. What more can you ask for. They let go of the usual social restraints, the women did. ...Dr.Syntax
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Maybe I just got lucky I don`t know. It seems to me , any of the women I wanted to get it on with ended up doing so with me numerous times. What more can you ask for.
    Citations to studies demonstrating efficacy, and addressing why this approach should not be rejected by the psychological community... which it is.
     

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    They let go of their usual social restraints?

    What restraints where those?

    Did they replace them with unusual social restraints?
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

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    He developed Primal therapy, in which clients are encouraged to re-live and express what Janov considers repressed feelings. Janov's patients included John Lennon and Yoko Ono. [5]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Janov

    Clinical Psychology, in the US, had it's biggest growth period in the 1960 and 70's, when Janov was not only influential, but his ideas practiced. His basic feelings in those days were to recreate or face the phobia, fear or a conflicting element to what was/is classified as normal. Fear flying in airplanes, go flying. Primal simply takes the idea, that childhood events could play a role in adult behavior or again fears of what otherwise is normal.

    Primal therapy became very influential during a brief period in the early 1970s, after the publication of Janov's first book, The Primal Scream. It inspired hundreds of spin-off clinics worldwide, and served as an inspiration for many popular cultural icons like John Lennon and Tears for Fears.[citation needed]
    In fairness, parts of the theory, according to this article did fall into obscurity, for lack of supporting statistics (arguable IMO) but note HE and OTHERS did continue to PRACTICE and other developments of it, which in many cases IMO became mainstream, before his reign, during and after. I do recall articles written in the 70's and 80's, praising the work, generally along the lines of raising children and he has written several books. For the record, he is now 85 years old and probably not that involved, but his work goes on.

    Since that time, primal therapy has fallen into obscurity, in part because Janov never produced the outcomes studies necessary to demonstrate its effectiveness. Nevertheless, Janov and others continue to advocate and practice the therapy or various developments of it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_therapy

    inow; The Doc was banned from 'Hypo' shortly after you left and assumed you knew and your same arguments persisted there. Anyway your attempt to notify Administration here, that a poster was trolling, having been banned (is that a REASON to ban here) or the authenticity of Dr. Javon and his theory on 'General Discussion' IMO was totally out of line.

    Doc; First let me thank you for your service with TWO TOURS, as a Marine Rifleman and especially in Viet Nam. I was already to old and had three kids to think about, but had served in the AF in the 50's. Second, it's always amazed me how many guys, fondly remember their DAD's, your by no means alone there. Third; Your interest, even to an obsession is justified and I assumed your linking the VA Hospital experience to physiological problems. I am sure you already know how many folks had and have problems, that did serve in VN.

    All that said, I have to be honest. We're now talking near 40 years ago and no telling how many what should be good memories you could recall, other than those in VN. Sometimes, when a person has had problems forgetting a troubling past it's best to just take things into their own hands and move on. You probably don't have many years left, from your time in VN and no doubt the Drugs I KNOW have been administered to Veterans of that war and it's best you start trying to enjoy what's left. If your like the many I already know, your probably on some kind of disability and being shoved around with out any remedy in sight, other than your dream of a magic cure, which is just not going to happen. I'll add in this case, trying to cope with inow, or posters like him and his attitudes is not going to be good for you. However, I'll also add this; If you branch off onto other subjects or read other issues he post in, you'll find several you would agree with. He also has a serious medical problem, that has and will continue to cause problems, probably to a relatively early death.

    Since this is in 'General Discussion', if you want some opinions on your specific case, maybe some ideas from posters or advice from others with medical problems, elaborate briefly on you current status and see what develops.
     

  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    Anyway your attempt to notify Administration here, that a poster was trolling, having been banned (is that a REASON to ban here) or the authenticity of Dr. Javon and his theory on 'General Discussion' IMO was totally out of line.
    Just giving them a head's up about what/who they're dealing with, Jackson.

    As I said already, and as was explained to him by numerous people... I am not the reason he was banned. His failure to support his claims with evidence, his rude behavior, and his inability to operate within the rules of the site were what caused the termination of his account privileges.

    Finally, just because this is the General Discussion forum does not mean the burden of proof suddenly disappears. This is a science forum. He has made claims, and those claims have been challenged. The onus is on him is to support his claims in a credible manner.

    You can admonish me all you want. The fact remains that this approach to mental health has long been rejected by the psychological community, rests on a flawed model of the human mind, and is plainly lacking in evidence of efficacy.

    If Dr.Syntax wishes to share evidence of efficacy then I'm sure his fate here will be much more positive. However, if he simply keeps repeating himself and ignoring (plugging his ears/closing his eyes to) counter points to his claims/assertions (and evidence showing their fallacious nature), then I'm not optimistic that the reception here will be any different than it was at other science-oriented sites.
     

  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    They let go of their usual social restraints?

    What restraints where those?

    Did they replace them with unusual social restraints?
    REPLY:I was trying to inject a little humor or fun into the dialog. But I will answer the questions as best I can. You asked:What Restraints were those ? I will describe

    the way the group interacted as apposed to trying to comprise some list of constraints.

    I never went to the PRIMAL INSTITUTE which was what Dr.Janov called his organization at the time. I was informed by the Primal Institute that they were booked solid for the next six years. They informed me of some former clients that had opened Primal Therapy centers of their own. They also told me that they were not endorsed by Dr.Janov in anyway.
    There was no way I was going to wait six years for treatment, and made arrangements, the required payment which was most of the money I had managed to save. I do not regret one little bit.
    All I would say is that there was an active interest between the different men and women in pursuing sexual desires. At times during groups sessions in what was called the post group or something where we were encouraged to say pretty much anything we wished to say to any different group member. This included things like: I am very attracted to whomever and would you spend the night with me. Things like that. Sometimes the two would hook up for that night and sometimes they would not. Many times it would be a woman initiating the request. That`s about it.

    I FOUND THIS INSIGHTFUL INTRODUCTION to one of Janov`s many books.
    It is now called : THE JANOV CENTER: For Treatment,Training, and Research. I find that " and research ", to be very noteworthy. I know from reading the many different books Dr.Janov has written that there has been a continuous and ongoing effort by Dr.Janov to research and develope Primal Therapy. He is the one who discovered it. In his book:" The Primal Scream " by Arthur Janov PhD. copyrighted 1970 and the Perigee edition,the one I have in my hands was copyrighted in 1980. It has what is Titled:" Forward to the Perigee edition " Quote:" It has been more than thirteen years since I sat down to report on my discovery of what lay inside every neurosis. Thirteen years and several thousand patients later I would not make any major changes in what I wrote for I feel that what is in THE PRIMAL SCREAM is as true todyay as it was then. Surely,there have been changes,improvements and elaborations - but the truths in THE PRIMAL SCREAM remain so. Because this book was begun thirteen years ago,there are obviously some inaccuracies in it in terms of what we now know. Rather than try to rewrite it in the light of hindsight, it might be well to indicate some ares where the original material could lead to misunderstandings. For example, it might be assumed by the reader that Primal Therapy is a six month affair. This is not the case. The average patient stays between thirteen and sixteen months. It might also be assumed that the therapy is a smooth development, one feeling following from another without interruption. There are in fact some rough times in Primal Therapy as the patient confronts catastrophic traumas in his childhood. There are also some plateaus where the patient may not feel for weeks at a time. We know now that those plateaus are neccessary-a resting-up before more feelings are to be felt.
    Primals go on for years,many years; they are part of living. We could have no idea originally just how many years the patients would go on feeling. We have also discovered that change,profound change,continues even after five years of feeling. This does not mean that the THERAPY lasts five years. It does not. After the first year or so the patient has the tools to make himself or herself well. But the process continues and is simply integrated into life. Another benefit of hindsight: we know that what was said about the efficacy of this therapy has been borne out. It IS the cure for neurosis.
    We are far more skilled than we were, so that the therapy today has a precision that it could not it could not possibly have had then. And too, we have years of research behind us now to add to our store of knowledge. But there is something in this work that I shall never duplicate again no matter how many books I write- the dazzling enthusiasm of discovering a world that no one had penetrated, a world that lay unknown to man for thousands of years. It was the excitement of learning something new every day about human beings and humanity. And it was the delight of knowing that I had found a method of reversing what history had wrought,a way of undoing the misery and agony of mankind. This book represents the first days of discovery, the fresh look of someone who had been, along with the rest of the professionals, molded in the conventional ways in the banalities of psychology and the mundane, trite pontifications that only a professional training coupled with absolute power over other human beings can invidiously bring.
    THE PRIMAL SCREAM has not only changed the lives of many individuals throughout the world, it has changed my life forevermore. Perhaps it will change yours. If so, it is my gift to you for a better life. " " Arthur Janov , Los Angeles ,California " UNQUOTE


    I found this introduction to be informative as to the ongoing efforts of Janov to research, refine, and develope his remarkable therapy. He has written many other books since 1980 and all give evidence to his dedication to this work and the ongoing research and developement of Primal Therapy that has gone on for more than 40 years now. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  20. #19 I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Again... Let's see some evidence of efficacy. A link to Janov's site and a mention of one person who likes his idea will not suffice.

    As was explained to you by numerous people, Dr.Syntax... I am not the reason you were banned. Your failure to support your claims with evidence, your rude behavior, and your inability to operate within the rules of the site were what caused your welcome to be permanently rescinded.

    REPLY: Here is a list of credentialed supporters of Primal Therapy. I will add to this list because I know of a very many others whose websites I have visited and some of the references they use. Here goes :

    1. Dr. Aletha Solter PhD. psychology
    at:[ http://www.primalspirit.com/pr2_1solter_tears.htm
    2. Dr.Paul Vereshack M.D. His FREE online self help for Primalers: "Help Me--I`m Tired Of Feeling Bad" book is available
    at: [ http://www.paulvereshack.com/paulcvr.html ]
    3.Fran Lang Porter PhD.,Dr.Slater and colleagues and others
    at: [ http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0816065623.htm
    4. Jonanthan Christie PhD. as to: dramatic positive physiological changes resulting from Primal Therapy
    at: [ http://uclue.com/?xq=750 ]
    5. William R.Emerson PhD highly recommends Dr.Solter`s work based on PRIMAL THEORY
    at: [ http://primal-page.com/aware.htm ]
     

  21. #20 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Again... Let's see some evidence of efficacy. A link to Janov's site and a mention of one person who likes his idea will not suffice.
    REPLY: Here is a list of credentialed supporters of Primal Therapy.
    Sorry, this does not meet the standard put forth. You are essentially appealing to authority, which is an obvious logical fallacy, and which further has no place whatsoever in science. I understand that you may not be as well versed in science as myself or some others here, but when someone asks for evidence of efficacy, they are NOT asking for links to people who support it. I am looking for something peer reviewed with a decent and representative population sample, and adequate control group, and well-defined conditions... maybe even a meta-analysis of multiple studies.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    1. Dr. Aletha Solter PhD. psychology
    at:[ http://www.primalspirit.com/pr2_1solter_tears.htm[
    This link does not even discuss primal therapy. From the page you cited:

    "In this article, I will review the traditional explanations for crying and then present evidence for a stress-release theory of crying. <...> To summarize, crying serves a dual purpose during infancy. A primary function of crying is to communicate vital and basic needs during the preverbal years. The second function has been largely unrecognized until recently. Research has shown that crying is a beneficial physiological process."

    It's talking about infants and why they cry. It does not discuss primal therapy, nor is it evidence of "credentialed support" as you claimed it to be. Please, try again.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    2. Dr.Paul Vereshack M.D.
    at: [ http://www.paulvereshack.com/paulcvr.html ]
    This is a link to a homeade website promoting a book... A book which is not peer-reviewed. I've seen similar websites promoting big foot and alien abduction. This simply won't suffice.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    3.Fran Lang Porter PhD.,Dr.Slater and colleagues and others
    at: [ http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0816065623.htm
    Did you even read that article? That doesn't support primal therapy... it's not even mentioned... not once. It's an article discussing how pain in infants has a lasting impact on their neural architecture.


    It's as if you've claimed that you had an anti-gravity device, and I asked you to prove it. Then, in response, you share articles discussing the fact that there is this thing called gravity, and that it can be measured. Your response is completely non-sequitur.
     

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    This is a discussion forum. The thread's for discussing primal therapy. I don't wanna click links and verify citations, but I am curious about primal therapy.

    So, dr.syntax, you start by outlining primal therapy... how it works... why you think it works... any novel ideas you might have about it. Others return questions, contradictions, or elaborations. And away we go.

    So far all I've learned is primal therapy makes people less complex, yet it makes them cry. :?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  23. #22 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Again... Let's see some evidence of efficacy. A link to Janov's site and a mention of one person who likes his idea will not suffice.
    REPLY: Here is a list of credentialed supporters of Primal Therapy.
    Sorry, this does not meet the standard put forth. You are essentially appealing to authority, which is an obvious logical fallacy, and which further has no place whatsoever in science. I understand that you may not be as well versed in science as myself or some others here, but when someone asks for evidence of efficacy, they are NOT asking for links to people who support it. I am looking for something peer reviewed with a decent and representative population sample, and adequate control group, and well-defined conditions... maybe even a meta-analysis of multiple studies.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    1. Dr. Aletha Solter PhD. psychology
    at:[ http://www.primalspirit.com/pr2_1solter_tears.htm[
    This link does not even discuss primal therapy. From the page you cited:

    "In this article, I will review the traditional explanations for crying and then present evidence for a stress-release theory of crying. <...> To summarize, crying serves a dual purpose during infancy. A primary function of crying is to communicate vital and basic needs during the preverbal years. The second function has been largely unrecognized until recently. Research has shown that crying is a beneficial physiological process."

    It's talking about infants and why they cry. It does not discuss primal therapy, nor is it evidence of "credentialed support" as you claimed it to be. Please, try again.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    2. Dr.Paul Vereshack M.D.
    at: [ http://www.paulvereshack.com/paulcvr.html ]
    This is a link to a homeade website promoting a book... A book which is not peer-reviewed. I've seen similar websites promoting big foot and alien abduction. This simply won't suffice.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    3.Fran Lang Porter PhD.,Dr.Slater and colleagues and others
    at: [ http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0816065623.htm
    Did you even read that article? That doesn't support primal therapy... it's not even mentioned... not once. It's an article discussing how pain in infants has a lasting impact on their neural architecture.


    It's as if you've claimed that you had an anti-gravity device, and I asked you to prove it. Then, in response, you share articles discussing the fact that there is this thing called gravity, and that it can be measured. Your response is completely non-sequitur.
    REPLY: YOU DO NOT SET STANDARDS FOR ME OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS FORUM!! Just who do you think you are anyway. As far as I am concerned you a sick screwball who evidently can`t find anything better to do with his time than to follow me about in the forums and spit out your worthless tripe. Get a life and leave me be. I don`t go around bothering you. Just what is it you hate me so much for ? Do you even know ? It`s downright weird . You are some kind of weirdo. Get a hold of yourself and forget about me. Stop all this nonsense. This is the General Discussion Forum. You don`t make up any rules here. Get a life and leave me alone you little creep. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  24. #23  
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    "They informed me of some former clients that had opened Primal Therapy centers of their own. They also told me that they were not endorsed by Dr.Janov in anyway. "

    So how can you evoke Dr. Janov's name and research to defend what when on in these centers. Do you know what goes on in the center(s) endorse by Dr. Janov, and how it differs from what when on where you went?
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    "They informed me of some former clients that had opened Primal Therapy centers of their own. They also told me that they were not endorsed by Dr.Janov in anyway. "

    So how can you evoke Dr. Janov's name and research to defend what when on in these centers. Do you know what goes on in the center(s) endorse by Dr. Janov, and how it differs from what when on where you went?


    REPLY: I`ll discuss whatever I choose to. I sure do not need your approval, GOT THAT ! I don`t have to justify anything to you. This is still a sort of free country I think.I don`t spend my life snooping into other peoples affairs . I don`t like your attitude toward me. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  26. #25 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: (to inow) YOU DO NOT SET STANDARDS FOR ME OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS FORUM!!
    This is true, but inow is reflecting the standards of the forum. Even in general discussion, since this is a science forum, members are expected to provide justifcation for claims that are non-mainstream (and for that matter, plenty of mainstream views also). That justification should be, as inow has said, in the form of peer reviewed original research articles, or equivalents. This is not only a reasonable requirement, it is - on a science forum - a mandatory requirement.

    If you still feel it is unreasonable perhaps you could take it up with one of the moderators or start a thread to discuss it in an appropriate sub-forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    As far as I am concerned you a sick screwball who evidently can`t find anything better to do with his time than to follow me about in the forums and spit out your worthless tripe.
    I do understand you are upset, but I would point out that inow has been here considerably longer than you have, so it is certainly not him who is following you around.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    I don`t go around bothering you.
    I cannot speak for inow, but I certainly am 'bothered' by posters who fail to substantiate their claims with sound science. Perhaps inow feels the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Just what is it you hate me so much for ? Do you even know ? It`s downright weird . You are some kind of weirdo. Get a hold of yourself and forget about me. Stop all this nonsense.
    I have seen nothing in inow's posts that suggests he hates you, or indeed has any feelings about you at all. He does appear frustrated at your insistence on making claims and (allegedly) failing to provide proper justification for them.

    You rightly wish this 'nonsense' to stop and for discussion to proceed. It can only do so productively if you begin to provide some more details about the methodology and some of that justificaiton that inow has reasonably asked for. Please keep in mind that is the nature of science to ask tough questions in a vigorous manner. If you can try to avoid taking such questions personally I think you have a better chance of influencing peoples view on Primal methodologies.

    Welcome to the forum by the way.
     

  27. #26  
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    I hope the moderators will excuse this double post.

    Dr. Syntax, I see you have been upset by marcuclayman's post.
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    "They informed me of some former clients that had opened Primal Therapy centers of their own. They also told me that they were not endorsed by Dr.Janov in anyway. "

    So how can you evoke Dr. Janov's name and research to defend what when on in these centers. Do you know what goes on in the center(s) endorse by Dr. Janov, and how it differs from what when on where you went?
    REPLY: I`ll discuss whatever I choose to. I sure do not need your approval, GOT THAT ! I don`t have to justify anything to you. This is still a sort of free country I think.I don`t spend my life snooping into other peoples affairs . I don`t like your attitude toward me. ...Dr.Syntax
    Marcus is not telling you what you can and cannot discuss, he is pointing out a logical flaw in your argument in favour of Janov's methods.

    You areusing your positive experiences at non-accredited Primal Therapy centers as evidence in support of the validity of the method. But if these centres were not following the method as approved by Dr Janov then their success may have been the result of other factors. This is why marcus quite reasonably asks if you are aware of any differences between the two.

    Would you not agree that that is an important question. I am sure several people would have an interest in discussin this concept further, but if you ar going to shout at them for asking a reasonable question, or making a pertinent observation, then the whole thing will rapidly deteriorate.
     

  28. #27  
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    "I sure do not need your approval, GOT THAT"

    The irony is overwhelming



    nonetheless, your independence has been considered and approved

    You can discuss whatever you want, alone and without 3rd party perspective. Enjoy!
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

  29. #28 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: (to inow) YOU DO NOT SET STANDARDS FOR ME OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS FORUM!!
    This is true, but inow is reflecting the standards of the forum. Even in general discussion, since this is a science forum, members are expected to provide justifcation for claims that are non-mainstream (and for that matter, plenty of mainstream views also). That justification should be, as inow has said, in the form of peer reviewed original research articles, or equivalents. This is not only a reasonable requirement, it is - on a science forum - a mandatory requirement.

    If you still feel it is unreasonable perhaps you could take it up with one of the moderators or start a thread to discuss it in an appropriate sub-forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    As far as I am concerned you a sick screwball who evidently can`t find anything better to do with his time than to follow me about in the forums and spit out your worthless tripe.
    I do understand you are upset, but I would point out that inow has been here considerably longer than you have, so it is certainly not him who is following you around.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    I don`t go around bothering you.
    I cannot speak for inow, but I certainly am 'bothered' by posters who fail to substantiate their claims with sound science. Perhaps inow feels the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Just what is it you hate me so much for ? Do you even know ? It`s downright weird . You are some kind of weirdo. Get a hold of yourself and forget about me. Stop all this nonsense.
    I have seen nothing in inow's posts that suggests he hates you, or indeed has any feelings about you at all. He does appear frustrated at your insistence on making claims and (allegedly) failing to provide proper justification for them.

    You rightly wish this 'nonsense' to stop and for discussion to proceed. It can only do so productively if you begin to provide some more details about the methodology and some of that justificaiton that inow has reasonably asked for. Please keep in mind that is the nature of science to ask tough questions in a vigorous manner. If you can try to avoid taking such questions personally I think you have a better chance of influencing peoples view on Primal methodologies.

    Welcome to the forum by the way.
    REPLY: This is the general discussion forum. You can discuss within reason anything you wish to, doesn`t have to be science or related. Also, all iNow ever does is post links and calls it proof. When I do the same it DOESN`T MEET THE STANDARD. Leave me alone. I don`t go around bothering you. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  30. #29  
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    does primal therapy involve nutritional supplements? because most nervous disorders are caused, not by some flawed way of thinking and/or behaving, but by malnutrition: namely deficiencies of b vitamins, electrolytes, vital proteins and fats.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

  31. #30 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: This is the general discussion forum.....snip...... Leave me alone. I don`t go around bothering you. ...Dr.Syntax
    Yes, it is a discussion forum and I am trying to engage in a discussion with you. It seems that you consider anyone who disagrees with anything you post is automatically 'bothering you'.

    No one is going to accept the value of Primal Scream therapy just because you speak well of it. you must have been aware that it is not a concept that is widely accepted and that you would likely be met with questioning. Why then do you react so strongly against that questioning? It is not helping to convince anyone of the efficacy of the approach.
     

  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    for someone who is advocating a cure for neurosis... you seem quite neurotic
    REPLY: I treat people the way they treat me. If consider that neurotic so be it for you. I myself consider it natural and healthy. ...DS
     

  33. #32  
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    now were talking the same language, that was my original point when you said "what are you talking about"

    see, i had the feeling you knew what I was talking about

    what we consider to be healthy behavior is based on cultural identity, not what is "real"
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

  34. #33 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: This is the general discussion forum.....snip...... Leave me alone. I don`t go around bothering you. ...Dr.Syntax
    Yes, it is a discussion forum and I am trying to engage in a discussion with you. It seems that you consider anyone who disagrees with anything you post is automatically 'bothering you'.

    No one is going to accept the value of Primal Scream therapy just because you speak well of it. you must have been aware that it is not a concept that is widely accepted and that you would likely be met with questioning. Why then do you react so strongly against that questioning? It is not helping to convince anyone of the efficacy of the approach.
    REPLY: I disagree with you. Janov`s work is becoming quite popular once again. Dr.Solter`s poularity is a testament to that and I challenge you to find a statement of her`s that was not derived from Janov`s prior work which I doubt any of you have bothered to read. Can you name a book of his you ever read? ...DS
     

  35. #34  
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    But you said Dr Janov doesn't endorse the primal therapy you've participated in. Why do you think that he doesn't endorse them? is he too old and neurotic to sign his name?
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

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    [quote="marcusclayman"]But you said Dr Janov doesn't endorse the primal therapy you've participated in. Why do you think that he doesn't endorse them? is he too old and neurotic to sign his name?[/quote




    REPLY: Take a flying ,,,, at a rolling donut. ...DS
     

  37. #36 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    [quote="Ophiolite"]
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: This is the general discussion forum.....snip...... Leave me alone. I don`t go around bothering you. ...Dr.Syntax
    Yes, it is a discussion forum and I am trying to engage in a discussion with you. It seems that you consider anyone who disagrees with anything you post is automatically 'bothering you'.

    No one is going to accept the value of Primal Scream therapy just because you speak well of it. you must have been aware that it is not a concept that is widely accepted and that you would likely be met with questioning. Why then do you react so strongly against that questioning? It is not helping to convince anyone of the efficacy of the approach.[/quote


    REPLY: This proves how little you know about primal therapy. It never was called "Primal Scream Therapy". Not by Janov or any of the many people I have known involved in it. NEVER. ...DS
     

  38. #37  
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    I think Ophiolite should send Dr.Syntax a bill for making him cry.
     

  39. #38 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: This proves how little you know about primal therapy. It never was called "Primal Scream Therapy". Not by Janov or any of the many people I have known involved in it. NEVER. ...DS
    I have never made any claim to know anything about Primal Therapy. Indeed, my request - in support of inow - to see some peer reviewed research or equivalent material on the subject clearly implies that I do know little about it.

    Thank you for clarifying the correct name of the therapy for me. Now if you could lose the attitude and deliver some of those requested citations we might begin to get somewhere.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    [I do not know what is going on with this sick little man who calls himself iNow.
    This is your second warning. You will only get 2 with me. Please do not refer to other members as "sick little man." The next will result in a suspension or, perhaps, termination of your account.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I hope the moderators will excuse this double post.

    Dr. Syntax, I see you have been upset by marcuclayman's post.
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    "They informed me of some former clients that had opened Primal Therapy centers of their own. They also told me that they were not endorsed by Dr.Janov in anyway. "

    So how can you evoke Dr. Janov's name and research to defend what when on in these centers. Do you know what goes on in the center(s) endorse by Dr. Janov, and how it differs from what when on where you went?
    REPLY: I`ll discuss whatever I choose to. I sure do not need your approval, GOT THAT ! I don`t have to justify anything to you. This is still a sort of free country I think.I don`t spend my life snooping into other peoples affairs . I don`t like your attitude toward me. ...Dr.Syntax
    Marcus is not telling you what you can and cannot discuss, he is pointing out a logical flaw in your argument in favour of Janov's methods.

    You areusing your positive experiences at non-accredited Primal Therapy centers as evidence in support of the validity of the method. But if these centres were not following the method as approved by Dr Janov then their success may have been the result of other factors. This is why marcus quite reasonably asks if you are aware of any differences between the two.

    Would you not agree that that is an important question. I am sure several people would have an interest in discussin this concept further, but if you ar going to shout at them for asking a reasonable question, or making a pertinent observation, then the whole thing will rapidly deteriorate.

    REPLY: I HAVE BEEN RESPONDING TO AN UNENDING ATTACK HERE THIS MORNING. I never went to the Primal Institute so how would I know what went on there ? I did meet some of the people that came along with this other person who started this new, unendorsed by Janov center. I am reluctant to say very much. I have no first hand knowledge of what it was like there.I have such a high regard for Dr.Janov I would never want to say anything that could be misinterpreted which is clear to me all most of the posters seem interested in doing except for Jackson33 and maybe some one else . To me, Janov`s discovery and developement of primal therapy is THE MOST IMPORTANT AND HOPEFUL WORK FOR THE BETTERMENT OF MANKIND OF ALL TIME. A true cure for mental illness wich is all but universal in our species. Dr.Solter`s work with the very young is a very hopeful sign. Her work quite obviously derived from his. I have read some of her books. Janov previously published the same principals regarding infant and child care. So anyone who endorses her work is accepting as valid Janov`s prior statements. I have strong feelings about it. He is the one who put it all together and did a magnificent job of it. He saved my life though I never met the GREAT MAN. I do know people who went to the Primal Institute and he is not some arrogant ass or anything close to it from every thing I have ever heard about him.I see that I am rambling a good bit here. He saved my life like I said. I was on a real bad trip after two very eventful tours of duty in Viet Nam. It created subconscious reactions in me I could not get away from. After all, you cannot get away from yourself, can you ? Primal made it so I could at least get along in this world. I am actually a pretty decent person. I always give money to people I meet who need some help. I do not eat meat because I don`t want to cause other animals uneccessary pain and misery. Things like that. I will not hesitate to defend myself if someone wants to gets nasty with me. That seems fair to me. As far as the women I knew from the Primal Institute, I would say they had a natural attitude regarding sex. It`s one of the most pleasant aspects of life when with someone you find attractive. In fact I think Janov wrote a book on the subject. He wrote a lot of books. I never had problems about sex so I never read it. I had other problems and Primal has freed me of them to a very large degree. I feel so much better than I used to. I got injured quite severly and lived in constant pain. That is much better now. When I feel like crying I do. It always makes me feel much better. I am pretty confused at this time and will say good-bye for now. ...Dr.Syntax
     

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    [quote="inow"]I think Ophiolite should send Dr.Syntax a bill for making him cry.[/quote



    REPLY: WHAT are you talking about. I never said Ophiolite made me cry. You can`t keep yours lies straight anymore. Where did I say that ? What is with you ? Why are you so obsessed with me ? You follow me around the web. You always manage to be the first responder on anything about Janov. You are one weird little man. ...DS
     

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    Alright, well I'm sorry for my hyper aggressive tendancies. I do enjoy an intelligent debate, but only when responded to in kind.

    I can't speak for others, although I've gotten to know some of the members on this forum in the last few months, and I can guarantee you that my sentiments towards opinions being claimed as facts is common place, not only on this forum, but amongst most literate social creatures.

    It is not you or Janov that we are arguing against, it is your claims, so don't take it personally, and attack us; defend your claims.

    What Inow has done to you in the past should reflect on Inow and not the rest of us. There is a nifty ignore button, and you should feel free to ignore any and all of us who you don't want to talk to. Insulting us is no way to go about making a claim about how you know the best way to make people better. I always thought that if you want to change others, you should start by understanding them, not by judging them. But what do I know, I've never killed anyone before.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

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    I am confused by your assertion that primal therapy (whatever that is) can cure neurosis, when neuroticism is a personality trait and not a disorder.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
     

  45. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: WHAT are you talking about. I never said Ophiolite made me cry. You can`t keep yours lies straight anymore. Where did I say that ?
    It was a joke, mate. You didn't say anything of the sort, nor did I intend to imply it. Sorry for the confusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    What is with you ? Why are you so obsessed with me ? You follow me around the web. You always manage to be the first responder on anything about Janov. You are one weird little man. ...DS

    Hmmm... Perhaps you missed the below when it was posted above:

    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    [I do not know what is going on with this sick little man who calls himself iNow.
    This is your second warning. You will only get 2 with me. Please do not refer to other members as "sick little man." The next will result in a suspension or, perhaps, termination of your account.

    It's kind of like watching a train wreck. You know you should turn away, but you just can't stop staring.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle
    I am confused by your assertion that primal therapy (whatever that is) can cure neurosis, when neuroticism is a personality trait and not a disorder.

    Neurosis is a class of functional mental disorders involving distress but neither delusions nor hallucinations, where behavior is not outside socially acceptable norms.[1] It is also known as psychoneurosis or neurotic disorder, and thus those suffering from it are said to be neurotic. Once a common psychiatric diagnosis, the term is no longer part of mainstream psychiatric terminology in the United States, though it continues to be employed in psychoanalytic theory and practice, and in various other theoretical disciplines.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page


    Distress, is the inability of the mind to handle stress for some people. In brief it was Javon's theory (Primal) the stress, then distress could be formed at a very young age. These are not natural traits. What your thinking are the acceptable norms for delusional or hallucination, which are to a degree common in all people, but once driven past a certain point become mental disorders. For instance, if in combat, you experience some horrific event, which you later dream of, even waking you, or have flashbacks, that's not necessarily a disorder. If you can't sleep, or your mind places your mind, then the person into that situation (hallucination) and you physically act out that situation, it becomes neurotic (a disorder). Javon, believed that relatively minor instances in young childhood, could form these situations later in life, something unknown setting them off. Since even if true, there could be no way to prove, whether the patients mind recalled that childhood or was coxed into thinking he/she was remembering, that portion of his work could furnish no statistical proof of working.
     

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    Is hypnosis involved in finding and/or dealing with these memories/events? I think so, yes. So how can these people know that they are not imprinting these memories themselves? We all know what hypnotic suggestion can do. Remember the father that got sent to jail for molesting his daughters, while it later turned out that his daughters' memories were false and suggested under hypnosis?

    A short quote from some of their research:

    "OUR RESEARCH CONFIRMS THE TRUTH OF THE IMPRINT
    THE UCLA EXPERIMENT

    At UCLA Pulmonary Laboratory, my staff and I filmed two patients in slow motion moving exactly like a salamander (in a birth reliving that was spontaneous and unexpected) for over an hour and a half each. They were reliving anoxia at birth due to the heavy anesthesia given to the mother which affected their respiratory system. Drugs given to a 130-pound mother enters a system of a six-pound neonate and shuts down many systems. They were reliving this anoxia with the most primitive nervous system, hence the salamander-like movements."

    Huh? I. SMELL. PSEUDOSCIENCE.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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    It's kind of like watching a train wreck. You know you should turn away, but you just can't stop staring.
    inow; I had written this earlier, was not going to post, but your continuous tormenting of this poster is the real problem, you know it and refuse to back off.


    OK, this is getting out of hand and if you want to blame someone, BLAME ME!!! 'syntax' certainly has problems articulating his points, maybe embellishes his opinions, but apparently has a problem and leans on the hope Javon approach could work for him. I fail to see where the rules are being broken, for evidence, when the evidence is in this posters feelings for his own problem, which several of you all think is 'spamming' for the 'Javon Program', it is not.

    With that said, he came to this Forum, where on his first post, was literally attacked by his nemeses from two previous forums, in addition to an apparent effective attempt to influence the Administration. Where I would have just moved on, for the third time he decided to again fight back, why I don't understand. Skin Walker, you took a small portion from a paragraph, where he justifies his (yes) uncalled for comment, but in the context of "AGAIN" (this man's first post on this forum). I have seen this ATTITUDE toward casual posters, so many times on so many forums, often directed toward the people involved here, it's sickening to me. I happen to like these small Forums, have made a few friends and had many good discussions, learned a little and in my mind felt, made an occasional difference. If there is a banning here, please let it come from (In)Sanity, at least I am unaware of where all he post or has been influenced. I felt when Ophie and inow, came back or joined, this would help your forum, but may have been wrong. It's taking on the attitudes, that have caused no less than 6 Forums to go under or reduced to a few post per day, compared to hundreds....

    Dr.syntax; In trying to be nice, in my handling of your situation, I knew you had to be on anti-depressants, it's very common for folks with your history. Your final statement in todays post, pretty well tells the store. The problem is, your defeating the purpose of those drugs in arguing with people that have no idea, what your life may have been or is like today. Some couldn't care less, play their little games with anyone they can irritate into submission, that's their satisfaction. In a quick review of you stay on the 'Original' I noted a few friends and friendly comments, built on over 300 post and the quick demise of you situation, from 'ONE' major confrontation. I'd hate to see your stay here end in the same way from your first post. As I suggested earlier, take this thread to a personal level, the remedies that you believe have helped, or have hurt. There are thousands of VN Vet's, probably some on any forum, that would love to discuss their own experiences. 'Pong, has asked some relevant questions, can you address them or should I?
     

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    Let me just point out that how ever much pseudoscience this whole approach appears to be, if it really helps dr.syntax for whatever reason, then so be it. As an example, think about how huge a pile of nonsense the whole "The Secret" business is, but people still find benefit from it, if only for reasons other than those touted by its adherents.

    jackson33, you are probably very correct in saying that few or none of us has any idea what dr.syntax have been and is going through. Maybe a bit more of a compassionate approach would not go amiss I think.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

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    Is hypnosis involved in finding and/or dealing with these memories/events?
    KALSTER; I do know hypnosis is used, but the many things would have entered the mind, between the childhood and the hypnosis process. For instance, we all have memories of events in our childhood, but are those memories or from what we have been told some time afterward. Parents tend to start reminding their children of events at a very young age. "you remember your great grandmother", when you hadn't but the story told becomes part of you memory process. Hypnosis can't distinguish between real or told events.

    Guess you revised your post, but this confirms you current post....

    As for PSEUDOSCIENCE; In Psychology, whether any treatment works or not for any particular patient is itself the result, no one cure for all with some specific problem. If the person is receptive to an idea to begin with, they are apt to feel cured, rather than be cured. I could argue, all Psychology is PC. Medications that suppress portions of the brain are medical not psychological and Clinical Treatment of any disorder, short of that medication, is itself hypothetical, subjective or lacks creditable results.

    On you last post; Had been waiting for some of you that have held this forum together to speak up. Even though I did not post for awhile, I often visited and read many of the post and saw none of this kind of stuff during that period. Maybe '(In) Sanity' had a moment of 'Sanity', in letting you guys pick your own moderators.
     

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    Jackson - You have to admit, for someone who claims to have the cure for neurosis, Dr.Syntax certainly comes across as a VERY neurotic and deeply troubled man. I care enough to want him to seek real help, and the only reason I am so consistent in my responses to him is such that others will not assume that primal therapy is a good route for them. It's not. It does not help mental health. It's that simple. Some people need real help, and this simply isn't it. This is dangerous quackery, and little more.

    I'd respond the same way if someone proposed homeopathy in the treatment of Type 1 diabetes. This is not personal with Dr.Syntax (although, I'm pretty confident he cannot say the same about his feelings with me). This is about having some degree of academic integrity and ensuring our claims hold up to reality.

    I've had the same problem with you in many many threads, where you claim something that is completely false and counter to the evidence. Let's get off this "hey, iNow... stop being so mean" kick, and start presenting some frakkin evidence in support of our assertions.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    'Pong, has asked some relevant questions, can you address them or should I?
    Thanks Jackson. Between inow's demand for authoritative endorsement, and dr.syntax's baldfaced veneration, I'm wondering "where's the meat?"

    Lets' discuss it: How does it work. Why or why not.

    @inow. You say "It does not help mental health. It's that simple." Care to elaborate?

    @dr.syntax. You say (an approximation of) primal therapy saved your life. How so?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  53. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    @inow. You say "It does not help mental health. It's that simple." Care to elaborate?
    See my first reference in my first response to this thread. It was post #2, so it should not be too hard to find. Here's the link just in case:

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...=217250#217250
     

  54. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    I felt when Ophie and inow, came back or joined, this would help your forum, but may have been wrong.
    First, thank you for thinking my return may have offered a potentially positive influence on the forum.
    Secondly, what in this thread has led you to think you may have been wrong? I have been trying patiently to communicate with Dr. Syntax in a friendly manner and to calm matters down. Your doubts suggest I have been doing the reverse. I would welcome your thoughts.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Maybe I just got lucky I don`t know. It seems to me , any of the women I wanted to get it on with ended up doing so with me numerous times. What more can you ask for.
    Citations to studies demonstrating efficacy, and addressing why this approach should not be rejected by the psychological community... which it is.
    You said Janov`s work is being rejected by the psychological community, and I say you are wrong. Here is a link to :Understanding Tears and Tantrums by Dr.Solter. Read it and find one thing she says that was not said in a prior work,book,by Dr.Arthur Janov. Find one such statement. You know next to nothing about this important topic yet take upon yourself to follow me around the web harrassing me. Here is the link [ http://www.awareparenting.com/tantrums.htm ]. Also you can find your own links to any of her works. My challenge to you is to find a statement or principal she is discussing that I can not show a clear prior statement by Janov that proves he discussed any given principle or concept prior,before she did. She will not be so easy for you to trash. Janov, being the man he is, does not hesitate to tell it like it is and has made a number of enemies in the psychological community. He has been right about everything he has said and they hate him for it. He is telling them the only answer there is to treating mental illness is to find the means for the patients themselves to find the mens inside themselves to access and process all those repressed, feelings, emotions,memories and have that tantrum your parents put a stop to. By having that tantrum you resolve the feeling and there is no further reason for repressing it. It is resolved. Your brain no longer is involved in suppressing some subconscious force because it no longer exists. Having a tantrum is in many ways the same thing as having a Primal. It is what children do naturally to come to terms with some unpleasant reallity confronting them. That is until adults, parents,teachers force them to stop crying and having tantrums. Now you have a neurotic child and the process becomes automatic and subconscious within the child eventually because almost all adults can not take being around a child having a tantrum and do to them exactly what was done to them,the adults when they were children. And that is how this universal neurosis has been forced onto, and into each new generation of children throughout recorded human history. ...Dr.Syntax
     

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    You have no clue what I am requesting from you, do you?
     

  57. #56 Hello my freind, I appologize for my tardy response.... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    He developed Primal therapy, in which clients are encouraged to re-live and express what Janov considers repressed feelings. Janov's patients included John Lennon and Yoko Ono. [5]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Janov

    Clinical Psychology, in the US, had it's biggest growth period in the 1960 and 70's, when Janov was not only influential, but his ideas practiced. His basic feelings in those days were to recreate or face the phobia, fear or a conflicting element to what was/is classified as normal. Fear flying in airplanes, go flying. Primal simply takes the idea, that childhood events could play a role in adult behavior or again fears of what otherwise is normal.

    Primal therapy became very influential during a brief period in the early 1970s, after the publication of Janov's first book, The Primal Scream. It inspired hundreds of spin-off clinics worldwide, and served as an inspiration for many popular cultural icons like John Lennon and Tears for Fears.[citation needed]
    In fairness, parts of the theory, according to this article did fall into obscurity, for lack of supporting statistics (arguable IMO) but note HE and OTHERS did continue to PRACTICE and other developments of it, which in many cases IMO became mainstream, before his reign, during and after. I do recall articles written in the 70's and 80's, praising the work, generally along the lines of raising children and he has written several books. For the record, he is now 85 years old and probably not that involved, but his work goes on.

    Since that time, primal therapy has fallen into obscurity, in part because Janov never produced the outcomes studies necessary to demonstrate its effectiveness. Nevertheless, Janov and others continue to advocate and practice the therapy or various developments of it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_therapy

    inow; The Doc was banned from 'Hypo' shortly after you left and assumed you knew and your same arguments persisted there. Anyway your attempt to notify Administration here, that a poster was trolling, having been banned (is that a REASON to ban here) or the authenticity of Dr. Javon and his theory on 'General Discussion' IMO was totally out of line.

    Doc; First let me thank you for your service with TWO TOURS, as a Marine Rifleman and especially in Viet Nam. I was already to old and had three kids to think about, but had served in the AF in the 50's. Second, it's always amazed me how many guys, fondly remember their DAD's, your by no means alone there. Third; Your interest, even to an obsession is justified and I assumed your linking the VA Hospital experience to physiological problems. I am sure you already know how many folks had and have problems, that did serve in VN.

    All that said, I have to be honest. We're now talking near 40 years ago and no telling how many what should be good memories you could recall, other than those in VN. Sometimes, when a person has had problems forgetting a troubling past it's best to just take things into their own hands and move on. You probably don't have many years left, from your time in VN and no doubt the Drugs I KNOW have been administered to Veterans of that war and it's best you start trying to enjoy what's left. If your like the many I already know, your probably on some kind of disability and being shoved around with out any remedy in sight, other than your dream of a magic cure, which is just not going to happen. I'll add in this case, trying to cope with inow, or posters like him and his attitudes is not going to be good for you. However, I'll also add this; If you branch off onto other subjects or read other issues he post in, you'll find several you would agree with. He also has a serious medical problem, that has and will continue to cause problems, probably to a relatively early death.

    Since this is in 'General Discussion', if you want some opinions on your specific case, maybe some ideas from posters or advice from others with medical problems, elaborate briefly on you current status and see what develops.
    I am sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I was hit with a barrage of insulting, derogatory responses in this forum and spent about 4 hours striking back I guess you could call it. After which I was too upset to respond to you,my friend.
    I am not sure where to begin. OK, here goes, once you have gone through the initial phase of primal therapy, for many people, myself included there is no turning back. Actually, for me, once I read" the Primal Scream" I knew what was wrong with me and what I had to do to correct it. What ever suppressive mechanisms had worked for me in the past were simply overwhelmed by the amount of pain,anger,and fear I had inside of me. Stored away,but always there forcing itself into my consciousness in different ways at all times.
    At the VA mental hospital they had me on so much thorazine I was so weak and confused all the time, it just made me even more miserable. With the knowledge and promise of Primal Therapy I knew I could have a real life for myself again. I had been put there on a sort of voluntary basis. My parents had arranged this out of concern for me. I simply packed up the few belongings I had and hitch hiked home. The staff tried to stop me, I was not committed and they decided if I wanted to go that strongly, they wouldn`t prevent me from doing so. I signed some medical release form acknowledging that I was leaving against their medical advise,something like that.
    I went home and explained to my parents that Ineeded this PRIMAL THERAPY. I had managed to save up enough money to pay the initial fees required at this PRIMAL CENTER and buy an old car and drove to the place where this PRIMAL THERAPY CENTER was located and began my therapy. It went as well as it did. Primal Therapy was in it`s very early stage of developement at that time, the early 1970s. Sometimes I would have some really good primals and at least for a day or two feel pretty good. There were a lot of young women in the group and I was a physically fit young man, so, that helped keep my moral up a good bit. In fact there were days and nights I thought I must have died and gone to heaven. I was having the time of my life. There were times I would have these really incredible primals. I could describe some of them for you but I feel it is better for me that I not do so in a public forum. One of them had to do with being left alone in what I think was the morgue of the hospital ship. I understood they were very busy with all these other severely injured men. But why put me on a cold stainless steel table with a drain in it. Why couldn`t I have a damn blanket to at least help keep me a little warmer. The only thing I can imagine is that they had written me off as already as good as dead and the sooner I died the better for me. My insides were a mess. When you get hit at close range those high powered bullets hit with explosive impact. They explode inside you. I don`t know what else to make of it. But I did not die. I am not dead you bastards, somebody please help me.
    I remember someone asking someone, Is he still alive ? and someone looking me over and saying yes he is sir. Well get him into the OR ASAP and I`ll get to work on him. Then I woke up all rapped in bandages with all these tubes in me, up my dick,down my nose and some others protruding from my abdomen. I knew I would live, I could just feel it, I was going to live after all. Things like that. I have had primals about that whole affair. I still do now and then. Once you really get into primal you would never want to ,not be able to primal. You always feel so very much better after a really good one I would never want to go back to trying to repress any of the many different sorts of pain that got stored up in me. Does that make sense to you ? To be able to cry about my father. To tell him all the things I wanted to. but never did while he was alive. It heals me inside.
    So you can see why I see it as so very important that his ideas, methods,concepts be promoted. And I want everybody out there to know that it was Dr.Arthur Janov that made the crucial discoveries and concieved the concepts that have led to this revolutionary approach to treating neurosis and the prevention of it with infants and young children. There are others out there who try and pretend he is not the one whose ideas, and concepts are at the core of what you yourself have pointed out. That those very concepts are in fact being absorbed into mainstream psychiatry.Well, I`ve got a lot to do today, so will say Good-bye for now, my dear friend, Jackson33, Your Pal, ...Dr.Syntax
     

  58. #57 There is no good reason for this hostility to continue 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    You have no clue what I am requesting from you, do you?


    REPLY: There is no reason for this feud or whatever it is to keep going on and on. Do you even recall that my first responses to your postings were positive ones and I gave you positive REP points ? So, no, I do not understand what is going on with you but would like to resolve it. You tell me what it is about me that offends you so much. I never ever seek out your postings and make negative statements. The only time I get nasty with you is when you trash Janov. Have you read one of his books ? If you have not why do you take it upon yourself to trash him so ? As far as I am concerned Arthur Janov saved my life.
    I do understand there is a lot of hostility out there toward Janov, ESPECIALLY in the professional fields of psychiatry and psychology. You do Know he was trained as a traditional psychologist and worked as one for many years don`t you ? He has come right and said that the traditional approach is a very poor one at best. His approach to the treatment of neurosis is in many ways the exact opposite of theirs. People have to have those tantrums or primals. In many ways they are exactly the same thing. Our nervous systems way of healing from any and all traumas. Every baby is born with this natural ability to heal itself. It is necessary and crucial for people to cry and have tantrums,primals, to maintain a healthy brain,nervous system.
    As Jackson33 pointed out to you, his concepts are in fact being incorporated into mainstream psychology. Dr.Solter has a devoted following and no one is trashing her name. All of her ideas were previously described in detail by Janov. Janov predates all of the others alluded to in the literature. That one book" The Primal Scream " copyrighted: 1970 predates all of them and if you ever take the time to read it, in that one book all those concepts are presented.
    Also, and very importantly, Janov and his staff have made significant improvement in the way the Therapy is practiced. He has devoted more effort,money and such into the science of treating and preventing mental illness than anyone else I have ever heard of. He made it his life`s work to promote the mental health of the entire world. A world filled with neurotic people. And as Jackson33 also pointed out to you, the Europeans have embraced his ideas more readily than here in the USA.
    I don`t know what it is you want. You have a bunch of websites that trash him and call it proof of some sort that he has been debunked and expect me to buy into it. That is not going to happen and you should know that by now.
    If you ever read some of his work and wish to discuss,debate some concept you disagree with I would surely be willing to do that.
    Also, any evidence I come up with, you always find some reason why it does not meet your standard. So why should I waste my time doing so when I know you will always come up with some reason why that doesn`t measure up according to you. At this time I consider it a pointless task for that reason.
    But in spite of all that, is it not time we put this pointless animosity behind us and make some effort to get along. I know for a fact there is a lot we do agree on about the world. I have no desire to speak unkindly to you UNLESS you are coming after me, And I will always defend myself when people attack me. Don`t you? You Care of Yourself, I wish you no harm, I wish you well, ...Dr.Syntax
     

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    [quote="marcusclayman"]Alright, well I'm sorry for my hyper aggressive tendancies. I do enjoy an intelligent debate, but only when responded to in kind.

    I can't speak for others, although I've gotten to know some of the members on this forum in the last few months, and I can guarantee you that my sentiments towards opinions being claimed as facts is common place, not only on this forum, but amongst most literate social creatures.

    It is not you or Janov that we are arguing against, it is your claims, so don't take it personally, and attack us; defend your claims.

    What Inow has done to you in the past should reflect on Inow and not the rest of us. There is a nifty ignore button, and you should feel free to ignore any and all of us who you don't want to talk to. Insulting us is no way to go about making a claim about how you know the best way to make people better. I always thought that if you want to change others, you should start by understanding them, not by judging them. But what do I know, I've never killed anyone before.[/quote

    Well, I am sorry. I was so overwhelmed that morning I went into this totally defensive mode. I was truly overwhelmed. The pace alone of incoming responses was more than I could deal with rationally. Thank you for giving me another chance with you. You have given me some good advice and I will reread it so that it stays with me. I truly am sorry for any offensive remarks I said to you. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  60. #59 Hello Pong 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    'Pong, has asked some relevant questions, can you address them or should I?
    Thanks Jackson. Between inow's demand for authoritative endorsement, and dr.syntax's baldfaced veneration, I'm wondering "where's the meat?"

    Lets' discuss it: How does it work. Why or why not.

    @inow. You say "It does not help mental health. It's that simple." Care to elaborate?

    @dr.syntax. You say (an approximation of) primal therapy saved your life. How so?
    REPLY: Yes I did say it saved my life, and I mean just that. The short version which gets to the essentials is that after serving two eventful tours of duty in Viet Nam beginning with the beggining of the big 1968 Tet Offensive on the part of mainly the NVA and what was left of the VC I was involved in many actions, got wounded quite severely in july 1968, eventually returned to USA got 30 day leave more training and returned to Viet Nam in Jan. of 1969. This tour much worse in many ways. Much bigger battles with NVA in Au shau ? A shaw valley and along the DMZ meeting large determined NVA forces. Big bloody battles, many killed on both sides. Also moral was such that we would fight amongst each other,fellow Marines a whole lot. I would be involved myself at times on a daily basis, this was back at base camp where we were supposed to be resting up for next operation. We never spent more than a few 2 or 3 days between operations. To adjust to such a lifestyle I became a very neurotic person in ways that made it difficult to live with myself once I finally got honorably discharged from the Marine Corps. Ended up in mental hospital. Saw no hope for any sort of lifestyle for myself worth living. Read Janov`s PRIMAL SCREAM, got into Primal Therapy and have had a fairly decent life with the crucial help of primal therapy. I have described what this therapy rather extensively throughout this thread. If you are interested you can scroll through and make what you will of them. Also you can go to : [ http://www.primaltherapy.com ] and read what Dr.Janov has to say about it all for himself. Regards, ...Dr.Syntax
     

  61. #60 Re: I will provide some credentialed Primal supporters... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: (to inow) YOU DO NOT SET STANDARDS FOR ME OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS FORUM!!
    This is true, but inow is reflecting the standards of the forum. Even in general discussion, since this is a science forum, members are expected to provide justifcation for claims that are non-mainstream (and for that matter, plenty of mainstream views also). That justification should be, as inow has said, in the form of peer reviewed original research articles, or equivalents. This is not only a reasonable requirement, it is - on a science forum - a mandatory requirement.

    If you still feel it is unreasonable perhaps you could take it up with one of the moderators or start a thread to discuss it in an appropriate sub-forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    As far as I am concerned you a sick screwball who evidently can`t find anything better to do with his time than to follow me about in the forums and spit out your worthless tripe.
    I do understand you are upset, but I would point out that inow has been here considerably longer than you have, so it is certainly not him who is following you around.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    I don`t go around bothering you.
    I cannot speak for inow, but I certainly am 'bothered' by posters who fail to substantiate their claims with sound science. Perhaps inow feels the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Just what is it you hate me so much for ? Do you even know ? It`s downright weird . You are some kind of weirdo. Get a hold of yourself and forget about me. Stop all this nonsense.
    I have seen nothing in inow's posts that suggests he hates you, or indeed has any feelings about you at all. He does appear frustrated at your insistence on making claims and (allegedly) failing to provide proper justification for them.

    You rightly wish this 'nonsense' to stop and for discussion to proceed. It can only do so productively if you begin to provide some more details about the methodology and some of that justificaiton that inow has reasonably asked for. Please keep in mind that is the nature of science to ask tough questions in a vigorous manner. If you can try to avoid taking such questions personally I think you have a better chance of influencing peoples view on Primal methodologies.

    Welcome to the forum by the way.

    REPLY: I have made a posting to iNow in a sincere desire to put this squabble between us to an end. I really want this to end. I`m not going to jeoprodize this effort by saying anything more. Thank you for welcoming me to the forum. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  62. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    "I sure do not need your approval, GOT THAT"

    The irony is overwhelming



    nonetheless, your independence has been considered and approved

    You can discuss whatever you want, alone and without 3rd party perspective. Enjoy!

    REPLY: I am starting to really appreciate having you as a part of this forum. I like you. You take care and keep thinking those good thoughts. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  63. #62  
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    Dr.Syntax,

    Let me apologize for the anger, frustration, and even sadness I have caused for you. You have experienced things in life that I can never understand. My point is really simple. While primal makes you feel better in the moment, I don't think it's healthy in the long-run. Re-experiencing these traumatic episodes of your life is not as good as dealing with them and accepting them. I am not talking about repression. We all know that repression of these intense experiences only leads to greater illness.

    The issue, though, is that you are still very obviously struggling with much of your pain. It seems to well-up and come out of you when you least expect it. It has overtaken your life, and it is out of your control. I know you feel better in the short-term when you have these "primals," but your posts here and elsewhere speak plainly to the fact that you have not yet successfully healed your mind and reintegrated yourself within society.

    All I can say is that I genuinely wish you well, and I really feel strongly that you should seek help with someone who practices proven methods. The world of psychotherapy has come a VERY long way since the 1970s, and your life could be significantly improved if you were willing and able to involve yourself with someone who is trained in the most modern and current techniques of dealing with these psychological traumas.

    I am not attacking you. I genuinely find your situation distressing, and I fear that you may have comforted yourself with an approach that is doing you more harm than good. Primal therapy makes people feel better in the short-term, but tends to do more long-term damage. You need to actually deal with, process, and come-to-terms with your pain... Not just keep re-experiencing it.

    That's really all I've got. I wish you well. I want you to find peace and move forward with a healthy mind. I just don't think primal therapy is a legitimate avenue for reaching that destination, and the data all seems to agree with me. Take care.
     

  64. #63  
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    inow quotes;
    You have to admit, for someone who claims to have the cure for neurosis, Dr.Syntax certainly comes across as a VERY neurotic and deeply troubled man. I care enough to want him to seek real help, and the only reason I am so consistent in my responses to him is such that others will not assume that primal therapy is a good route for them. It's not. It does not help mental health. It's that simple. Some people need real help, and this simply isn't it. This is dangerous quackery, and little more.
    I just went through this, but in the area Janov practiced (Clinical Psychology), the treatments acceptance, lies solely in the patients acceptance of the idea. Where not talking Diabetes, Heart Conditions or being bitten by a Rattle Snake, that have specific treatments. Homeopathy, Yoga or the hundreds of alternatives to surgical/medication treatments are available to folks with those conditions. If any psychotic patient is beyond a certain point, danger to him/her self, family or the community, I am sure any reputable Psychologists would administer or have administered the proper medication. I'd argue, administering drugs to school kids with a so called 'attention disorder' has long past reasonable, not to mention all the adults that spend most their lives on drugs for similar non-violent mental problems.


    I'd respond the same way if someone proposed homeopathy in the treatment of Type 1 diabetes. This is not personal with Dr.Syntax (although, I'm pretty confident he cannot say the same about his feelings with me). This is about having some degree of academic integrity and ensuring our claims hold up to reality.
    Talk about relevance; I'm not aware of any diabetics trying to enroll in any form of Clinical Psychology Treatment Center.

    No sir, your an experienced poster, years of practice, some 20,000 post over many years. I've watched many very qualified and articulate members (poster/administrative) on more than one forum, fail to handle your aggressive attitudes. 'syntax' and maybe a hundred others are/were no match. I have no idea how I've managed to stay on any forum your involved with, but I do know your attitude toward posters you simply don't like, far exceeds anything they felt.

    I've had the same problem with you in many many threads, where you claim something that is completely false and counter to the evidence. Let's get off this "hey, iNow... stop being so mean" kick, and start presenting some frakkin evidence in support of our assertions.
    Again sir, No; Evidence on many topics, most I participate in are based on subjective viewpoints of the participants. On this issue, you have taken a portion of a persons work, trying to portray the unaccepted, as the entirety.

    I mentioned Yoga, thought you might be interested in the 'Mind over matter theory'...

    Yoga is a healing system of theory and practice. It is a combination of breathing exercises, physical postures, and meditation that has been practiced for more than 5,000 years. [1][2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_as...ative_medicine

    Now to soften my own discussion; I frankly don't dislike you in the least. I do believe you can be an asset to this type forum and most certainly have been to others in the past. I also am somewhat sympathetic to your bouts with a medical problem, that I feel bring on many of your aggressive replies. Many times in the past, I've seen a total reversal of one day's post to the next almost to the point of Schizophrenia or multiple personalities or more likely having something to do with diabetis (sugar count).


    Ophiolite; Your return to this forum was based on the response to your 'swan song' departure. While I scolded '(In) Sanity', for his actions with you, expecting to be banned myself, 20-30 others joined in with complimentary comments on your contributions. That's where your contributions were solidified, after a long period maintaining decorum, on this forum, along with Megabrain. I later guessed that feud must have been a Britt/Scott thing, having nothing to do with anything relevant.

    You quote to syntex;
    I have never made any claim to know anything about Primal Therapy. """Indeed, my request - in support of inow""" - to see some peer reviewed research or equivalent material on the subject clearly implies that I do know little about it.
    Secondly, what in this thread has led you to think you may have been wrong? I have been trying patiently to communicate with Dr. Syntax in a friendly manner and to calm matters down. Your doubts suggest I have been doing the reverse. I would welcome your thoughts.
    It's called the 'pile on effect', where the appearance is the support of one side. Keep in mind the inexperienced 'syntax' was already on the defensive and while even I assumed you meant 'in support of inow', he could only assume he had another foe, in the discussion. As for the authenticity of either side of Javons work, it's as subjective as any issue, neither side being capable of proving or disproving the the theory, at least for the 'Primal' or childhood experiences...The pile on then continued with Skin Walker (second warning) and my knowledge of you both on yet another forum.

    Thanks Jackson. Between inow's demand for authoritative endorsement, and dr.syntax's baldfaced veneration, I'm wondering "where's the meat?"
    Pong; Basically it depends on the question. Physiological problems, in humans, these days seem to run well past the norms of the 70's. Then you almost had to be psychotic, to be diagnosed mentally impaired or have a mental illness, to get help. After WWII, all that survived combat, were welcomed back into society, rarely discussed what was seen and most just lived with their problems, same for those before and the Korean Conflict. Then came Viet Nam (we still had the draft) where there was no welcoming party and literally hundreds of thousands of folks came back to find no jobs (for them) loss of respect, a quilt feeling of being involved a a lost war and much more. Simultaneously, there was a movement of Javon and many others, to offer assistance or the idea treatments could make a difference. That's the meat of of Javon's work, as well as most his success.

    I do need to emphasize, Javon, was not the only person and was also working on bringing all relatively minor trauma into psychology, believing that childhood experiences could traumatize a person later in life, no less than adult experiences. I could argue, spanking of children (punishment/discipline) and all the movements trying to diminish parental rights in the raising of children, have stemmed IN PART from his books and ideas.

    Doc; From your story and I've heard the same too many times from others, the one person that saved your life was fact yourself, not Javon, his books or the Psychiatric community. I don't have the time or reason, to go through all the assistance you probably had, but the point is you made the choices that got you were ever it is your currently at. Everything said, tells me your 60 yo, will likely be dead in a few years, probably still on medication and will soon go into depression, if not already. In your protection of Javon, which is not needed (he has done well and now 85) your displaying a cause for living, with no foundation. If your unable to establish another significant purpose in life and for life, your family if you have one, your church or some personal project, the simple normal changes that WILL occur in a very few years, will do you in. I'm not sure, a public forum should be an outlet for your frustrations or your display of faith, but if it is, forget PT, you have long past the point where discussing your trauma is beneficial to yourself, maybe to others with recent problems (Gulf Wars I-II), just not your own. I'm sure there is a VFW in your area, that needs assistance in many ways and maybe where you could find some peace of mind. Good luck...

    http://emem.vfw.org/findpost.aspx
     

  65. #64  
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    Psychologists cannot prescribe medications. Only psychiatrists can. Just fyi... it takes an MD to prescribe medicine.
     

  66. #65  
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    Thank you for your clarification Jackson. I certainly did not intend to 'pile in'. Indeed I was trying to do the exact reverse of that. I can see that my phrase 'in support of inow' could readily have been misinterpreted. It should have read something like 'my request for pertinent data, echoing the same request from inow'.

    On the other hand Dr. Syntax jumped all over poor old marcus who simply asked him a couple of reasonable questions, got caught in the cross fire and so reacted.

    Of course inow is an insensitive, direct bastard. Even more annoying, he is often right. Of course he hides attacks on people behind appeals for objectivity and the application of scientific methodology. But, heh, so what? His appeals are often spot on and the motivation for them is, frankly, irrelevant.

    I'm pleased to see Syntax has had time to reflect on yesterday and have great hopes he can approach the future with more equanimity. I appreciate he has had a tough time, but so have many others. And for each individual, regardless of the absolute strength of their tribulations, the greatest problem they have had to face as an individual is the greatest problem they have had to face as an individual.
     

  67. #66  
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    I can tell we'd have a good time drinking whiskey with one another. Thanks for the back-handed compliment. 8)
     

  68. #67  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I can tell we'd have a good time drinking whiskey with one another. Thanks for the back-handed compliment. 8)
    If it's alright with you I'll stick to beer, wine or tequila. :wink:
     

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    Psychologists cannot prescribe medications. Only psychiatrists can. Just fyi... it takes an MD to prescribe medicine.


    Not exactly correct;

    inow; First I said administer, not prescribe. Second; In most Sates a NP (Nurse Practitioner) can not only prescribe, but administer and any LVN (sub-nurse) can administer. Third; NP's are found in all levels of medical care, particularly in Mental Health Clinics. A NP, takes two additional years of training in addition to Nurses Training (RN), far less than State requirements for Psychologist Certification, in most cases. By the way Dr. Janov, received his doctorate in Psychology in 1960, age 36.


    The job of a nurse practitioner is very similar to that of physician. In fact, nurse practitioners often have working relationships with physicians. Like a physician, a nurse practitioner can perform the duties of a primary health care provider and can offer medical care to patients of all ages. In most states, a nurse practitioner is legally allowed to prescribe medications.
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-nu...actitioner.htm

    For a State by State summary;

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/440315

    For a State by State requirements for Psychologist Certification;

    http://www.nasponline.org/certificat...info_list.aspx
     

  70. #69  
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    Jackson - Your talk of nurses is very misleading.

    Psychiatrists can prescribe medications, as can advanced psychiatric nurses in some states. However, psychologists cannot (unless they complete the various state requirements to do so). To prescribe medications, you need a medical degree. In the VAST majority of cases, psychologists, counselors, and social workers do NOT hold an MD. Most commonly, psychologists have a Ph.D or a Psy.D. Psychologists who hold an MD are the exception, not the rule. Your comment above was specific to psychologists, so my point stands.

    http://psychology.about.com/od/psych...rapistcert.htm
     

  71. #70 This responce from you has deeply touhed me. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Dr.Syntax,

    Let me apologize for the anger, frustration, and even sadness I have caused for you. You have experienced things in life that I can never understand. My point is really simple. While primal makes you feel better in the moment, I don't think it's healthy in the long-run. Re-experiencing these traumatic episodes of your life is not as good as dealing with them and accepting them. I am not talking about repression. We all know that repression of these intense experiences only leads to greater illness.

    The issue, though, is that you are still very obviously struggling with much of your pain. It seems to well-up and come out of you when you least expect it. It has overtaken your life, and it is out of your control. I know you feel better in the short-term when you have these "primals," but your posts here and elsewhere speak plainly to the fact that you have not yet successfully healed your mind and reintegrated yourself within society.

    All I can say is that I genuinely wish you well, and I really feel strongly that you should seek help with someone who practices proven methods. The world of psychotherapy has come a VERY long way since the 1970s, and your life could be significantly improved if you were willing and able to involve yourself with someone who is trained in the most modern and current techniques of dealing with these psychological traumas.

    I am not attacking you. I genuinely find your situation distressing, and I fear that you may have comforted yourself with an approach that is doing you more harm than good. Primal therapy makes people feel better in the short-term, but tends to do more long-term damage. You need to actually deal with, process, and come-to-terms with your pain... Not just keep re-experiencing it.

    That's really all I've got. I wish you well. I want you to find peace and move forward with a healthy mind. I just don't think primal therapy is a legitimate avenue for reaching that destination, and the data all seems to agree with me. Take care.

    REPLY: To say that this response of yours has deeply touched me is an understatement. I cry every time I read this response. We will in all likelyhood always disagree about Janov. I feel it is relevant that you know that he has acknowledged that mistakes were made in the early period of the developement of Primal therapy.
    There is a note worthy quotation by him ,in this thread to that effect transcribed by me in one of my postings in this thread.
    I want you to know that every unkind statement to you by me ,hurt me somewhere inside me even as I typed it. I never thought of you as a " little man". Quite the opposite. I said it to hurt you because you were hurting me so much. And all the rest of my deragatory adjectives I used in referring to you. I wanted to hurt you because you were hurting me.
    Events are unfolding in my life at this time that require my utmost attention. For that reason I will not be posting or responding very much for some time now. This response of yours is so very meaningful to me that any further elaboration or additions would simply dilute it. My regards and respect, ...Dr.Syntax
     

  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Fine.

    Let's see some evidence regarding the efficacy of this therapeutic approach. Preferably something peer-reviewed and with a decent population size. A link to Dr. Janov's site simply won't suffice, nor will an appeal to authority where he talks about one other doctor who seems to like Janov's idea.

    Let's see the data. Where's the beef?

    I'm perfectly willing to change my mind and retract my dismissals, but you have to earn it. Without evidence and/or peer-reviewed studies, my criticism of this primal therapy garbage stands and remains unaddressed.


    Also... Thanks for letting me know he's been banned on more than one forum already. I was not aware of that. I only knew of one.

    Do you actually know anything that isn't in a book ? Do you have an opinion - no, not something you read, just your own view ? ... if not what is the value of your life, might as well just replace yourself with a stack of white papers, which is something you are trying hard to do.

    Do you remember ever thinking for yourself ?
     

  73. #72  
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    If it works for you, it works for you.

    Doesn't mean it would help / not-help anyone else.
     

  74. #73  
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    Do you actually know anything that isn't in a book ? Do you have an opinion - no, not something you read, just your own view ? ... if not what is the value of your life, might as well just replace yourself with a stack of white papers, which is something you are trying hard to do.

    Do you remember ever thinking for yourself ? ....... If it works for you, it works for you.
    Are you implying we all know what is best for us and understand our own minds better than those trained and doing research in the field?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

  75. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Do you actually know anything that isn't in a book ? Do you have an opinion - no, not something you read, just your own view ? ... if not what is the value of your life, might as well just replace yourself with a stack of white papers, which is something you are trying hard to do.

    Do you remember ever thinking for yourself ? ....... If it works for you, it works for you.
    Are you implying we all know what is best for us and understand our own minds better than those trained and doing research in the field?
    Interesting statement you are making.

    Are you saying that you relinquish your idea of yourself for somebody else's idea ?

    What is the point of you existing then ?

    Looking at the world today, do you think that 'what is best for us' is happening ?

    It seems nothing exists unless it is a whitepaper !!!!
     

  76. #75  
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    Of course not, you are being ridiculous. I am saying that we aren't all experts on psychology or psychotherapy. If we were we would be able do our own head shrinking. I am also not saying we should choose either/or, but that we should accept help when we need it. The thing is that it is not a good idea to simply surrender yourself to any treatment. Try and find something that has been studied following the scientific method, which means it has to undergo review and at least a good measure of verification and agreement from peers.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

  77. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Do you actually know anything that isn't in a book ? Do you have an opinion - no, not something you read, just your own view ?

    Do you remember ever thinking for yourself ?
    You could address that to dr.syntax. He's made no effort to flesh out primal therapy or what he thinks about it - just that he believes in it fanatically and we should too.... whatever the heck it is.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Of course not, you are being ridiculous. I am saying that we aren't all experts on psychology or psychotherapy. If we were we would be able do our own head shrinking. I am also not saying we should choose either/or, but that we should accept help when we need it. The thing is that it is not a good idea to simply surrender yourself to any treatment. Try and find something that has been studied following the scientific method, which means it has to undergo review and at least a good measure of verification and agreement from peers.
    Okay, that sounds reasonable.

    However recently I have been thinking something and you can tell me what you think about it. I am becoming aware that information about say sexuality and food (this is pretty basic stuff) - information passed to me by society - is badly distorted and it's actually quite hard to work out what is true. And also that it's been distorted over many years, so it's actually quite hard to work out what the starting point was. Also the way we are taught to think is also of a particular type, and so you have to dig down quite a long way to find something that is reel.

    Also, I have been reading a bit of Wittgenstein recently (I am not a philosophy expert so I apologise for any mistakes) and he sees no difference between what is in your mind (thoughts) and objects in the world. He says there is no difference, i.e. wordly objects don't have any solidity. And other philosophers seem to be saying that they cannot be sure the outside world exists at all. etc... and that the only thing that matters is your own experience.

    Other philosophers (Betrand Russell perhaps) have said that although scientists dismiss people's 'feelings' as being let's say subjective, that if a scientist is doing an experiment it is only through his own feelings (sight, sound) that he determines the outcome of experiments, and his feelings are not reliable either.

    This is all pretty profound considering these people seem to be trying very hard to be sincere. So it's like we can continue with the scientific experiments and assume the world is real etc... and ignore what the philosopher's say, but that seems to me to be denial.

    If as a scientist you want to take humanity's best understanding of the world and life, then surely you must take on board the views of Wittgenstein and others who think that we cannot be sure of any objective reality, or if the world is not just in our heads.

    So ... long winded ... getting back to the last post, I think making decisions on the basis of how you feel internally about them is as rational as getting a scientific peer review.

    ?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Do you actually know anything that isn't in a book ? Do you have an opinion - no, not something you read, just your own view ? ... if not what is the value of your life, might as well just replace yourself with a stack of white papers, which is something you are trying hard to do.

    Do you remember ever thinking for yourself ?
    Did you have a point in there somewhere which required addressing? I see nothing of substance or relevance thus far.
     

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    rideforever; As briefly as possible, 'Primal Therapy' is the idea many things you fear, love, hate along with the rest of the emotions/phobias, were formed very early in life, subconsciously remembering. Fear of snakes, heights and so on, where there is no rational reason to actually fear or like something.

    Likes and dislikes in food, are surely learned preferences and no doubt could be formed from your first experiences with food. They could also have formed last week when you first tasted an artichoke, or as in beer you learned to like something that really never taste good to any young person.

    Sexuality, in males begins as an over abundance of sperm in the testis (sperm sack) and the sensation at first automatically/naturally produced. From there the mind takes or the desire to create that sensation. These impulses could be as numerous as your imagination will allow or specific as you sexual desires dictate. Since this begins with puberty in both genders, it's hard for me to imagine, Primal Cause, genetic or other than natural personal desire for later sexual relations in humans.

    Women/Girls, a little different and will give site that explains;

    http://www.hashmi.com/reproductive_system.html

    I'm not sure where you philosophy angle comes in or what your trying to say or ask, but there is no real standard to go by, other than whats acceptable to society or what your physical limitations might be. If you care to elaborate a little, KALSTER, inow, myself or others would discuss your apparent idea or problem.
     

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    actually most people have never had a traumatizing encounter with snakes, yet it is still one of the most common phobias, as well as heights

    food preferences are effected by nurture, but there is a degree of nature as well

    for example, few people like shit, and not too many people need to be taught not to like shit
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    ..
    Well, weirdly enough I just did a primal weekend - my first. And I thought it was great - but that doesn't mean it would work for everyone.

    It's freedom, complete freedom ... from people telling you what works for instance ! And in complete freedom you can make up your own mind experientially - which is great.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    'Primal Therapy' is the idea many things you fear, love, hate along with the rest of the emotions/phobias, were formed very early in life, subconsciously remembering.
    So it has some truth to it. And then, like any view, temptation to magnify the one insight to explain more than it should.

    How does the therapy part work?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Other philosophers (Betrand Russell perhaps) have said that although scientists dismiss people's 'feelings' as being let's say subjective, that if a scientist is doing an experiment it is only through his own feelings (sight, sound) that he determines the outcome of experiments, and his feelings are not reliable either.
    The error here lies in conflating feelings (emotions) with feelings (sensory perceptions). The entire argument falls down because these are two entirely different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    This is all pretty profound considering these people seem to be trying very hard to be sincere. So it's like we can continue with the scientific experiments and assume the world is real etc... and ignore what the philosopher's say, but that seems to me to be denial.
    Science is methodologically naturalistic. That is, we work on the presumption that the universe follows a set of laws. It is hoped that these laws can be discerned and delineated through observation and experiment. Implicit in this presumption is the notion that what we perceive is 'real'.
    Most (many)scientists have forgotten, or may not even be aware of this underlying presumption, but that does not make it go away. What then makes it appropriate within science to ignore the philosophers concerns? Simple answer: it appears to work. Nothing more need be said.
     

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    actually most people have never had a traumatizing encounter with snakes, yet it is still one of the most common phobias, as well as heights
    marcus; I totally disagree, we're talking about the abnormal, not the normal. Fear of most things CAN be related to life's experiences, not necessarily from 'pre-memory' childhood. Fears can develop from simple verbal warnings, seeing a movie, TV programs, a dream, parental or some influential persons comments and can get carried away with personal experiences. Learned processes enter the mind, just as easily as those you experience. Ironically, most people fear death, yet pick and choose things to avoid that will cause death and a good example. Today most every one will get into a car, bus, airplane, cab or a vehicle, yet they are aware of the dangers. A small percentage however will not and this is where phobias enter the definition, as a problem. Most every person, is aware of problems that can come from eating contaminated food, what can happen in the kitchen of a restaurant or your own home, yet most live with those thoughts. Those that can't cope, do need help and so on through all life's daily activity.

    Taste, smell, textures determine your likes and dislikes for food or drink. Psychology, enters when this is interrupted by experiences. Seeing your parent soaked in their own vomit, after drinking too much, finding a bug in your ice cream cone, getting sick after eating a specific item and so on. If you want a good example of 'Primal' it would be that of bowel movements, urination or what comes out of your nose. Do you remember exactly when you learned these things were bad for you to consume? These things were possibly planted in your mind, long before your memory could recall and no telling what else that may be influential in your daily activity, today.

    Well, weirdly enough I just did a primal weekend - my first. And I thought it was great - but that doesn't mean it would work for everyone.

    It's freedom, complete freedom ... from people telling you what works for instance ! And in complete freedom you can make up your own mind experientially - which is great.
    rideforever; Personally, I feel our mind/brain may control almost everything, that it's understanding how to achieve an objective that's the problem in understanding human behavior. We can medicate pain, which in affect is controlling the mind. Using this and your feeling "it was great". Example; Most every test of a medication, is based on the placebo factor. So many will be given the real medication, the same number a fake or placebo medication. In almost ALL these test, even repeats, some will respond favorably to the placebo and some will not respond to the real medication.

    What you experienced, IMO was the simple release of pent up frustration, with in a group session of like minded folks doing much the same. What always worries me on these discussions, are medication or drug induced psychological emotions. I believe there are far more problems created, than those cured from simple medications, especially today in treating young minds to conform to others perceived norms, 'Attention Disorder' to be specific.

    How does the therapy part work?
    Pong; Exactly like any other therapy, whether one on one with a psychologist or under the group session format, cost being the difference. The patient is encouraged to discuss his/her feelings, beyond a normal relationship. The desired goal would be having the person, actually giving an explanation to whatever the problem may be. Self esteem, the feeling of failure in any number of areas (work/marriage) are common, but it can go to emotional desires, leading to criminal or unacceptable tendencies/behavior. The only difference in primal and the accepted therapy, is the potential possibility of the subconscious being involved from early childhood.
     

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    The how come fear of getting hit by a car is not as powerful as fear of getting bitten by a spider that has no power to hurt you? life experiences paint on evolutionary forms



    one of the oldest experiments done on the subject of innate fears is putting a piece of Plexiglas between two tables, setting a baby on one, and trying to have the baby crawl across the Plexiglas... the baby wont, because they are afraid of falling, until they are taught there is a translucent, but solid surface there that would prevent them from falling
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    Jackson - I'm sorry, I know your intentions are good, but your conclusions are plainly wrong. Primal therapy is not as basic as you describe, nor is it as closely associated with the field of pscyhotherapy as you suggest.

    It does not work, and there are a GREAT MANY differences between it and standard therapy... These differences go far beyond just "primal includes childhood."

    Your understanding of standard therapy and your understanding of this primal concept are both very lacking. I say this with the utmost respect, but I've spent years of my life studying these subjects and you are doing them a great disservice by misrepresenting them as you have.


    As I said, I know your intentions to be good, and your heart in the right place, but your information and presentation are simply wrong.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Other philosophers (Betrand Russell perhaps) have said that although scientists dismiss people's 'feelings' as being let's say subjective, that if a scientist is doing an experiment it is only through his own feelings (sight, sound) that he determines the outcome of experiments, and his feelings are not reliable either.
    The error here lies in conflating feelings (emotions) with feelings (sensory perceptions). The entire argument falls down because these are two entirely different things.
    Oh ... what's the difference ? Aren't they both mind stuff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    This is all pretty profound considering these people seem to be trying very hard to be sincere. So it's like we can continue with the scientific experiments and assume the world is real etc... and ignore what the philosopher's say, but that seems to me to be denial.
    Science is methodologically naturalistic. That is, we work on the presumption that the universe follows a set of laws. It is hoped that these laws can be discerned and delineated through observation and experiment. Implicit in this presumption is the notion that what we perceive is 'real'.
    Most (many)scientists have forgotten, or may not even be aware of this underlying presumption, but that does not make it go away. What then makes it appropriate within science to ignore the philosophers concerns? Simple answer: it appears to work. Nothing more need be said.
    Science seems to me to have forgotten and to be completely unaware of this most days - that needs to be said.

    As for science being a certain thing working within certain contraints ... it seems to me science is advertised as a search for truth or reality, like Dawkins' book God Delusion, i.e. because we have science we know that reality does not include God ... this is a mistake isn't it ?

    And I am sure that most scientists believe they are searching for the truth as objectively as possible and have forgotten about the assumptions, presumptions and caveats inherent in Science. Perhaps that is because Science is pushed and pulled by various forces.

    Anyway, I think the world would be better off if Science was redefined as the search for all truth available to man.
     

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    " Aren't they both mind stuff ?"

    They are both neurological. No different than say, comparing vision and hearing, saying "what's the difference, aren't they both senses?"

    your not wrong, but just because two things can be categorized together doesn't mean they lack differences, but that they share similarities.


    Science doesn't have a memory. It is not up to science to do anything, it is not an autonomous being, it is a concept certain humans define: we call these humans "scientific philosophers,"

    nonetheless whatever they decide doesn't change how scientists choose to do their business

    it is like the philosophers are the government, laying down the rules; and the scientists are the businesses; some break the rules to survive; some don't know better.
    Dick, be Frank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Aren't they both mind stuff ?
    Well I got it.


    @ Jackson and inow: Primal therapy would prompt recollection of suppression not coping (e.g. acting out). ?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    @ Jackson and inow: Primal therapy would prompt recollection of suppression not coping (e.g. acting out). ?
    I'm not sure I understand your question. Perhaps you can rephrase?


    Primal simply creates new experiences of intense emotion (crying, screaming, yelling, kicking, etc.) and associates them with existing pain and psychological traumas. It really does nothing to heal or accept that existing pain and reorient the individual with his/her larger society. It provides temporary relief in the short-term (I'd suggest that this is due mostly to the endorphins released during these intense outbursts), but according to the data and our modern understanding of the human mind it tends to do nothing... or even make things worse... in the long-term.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    @ Jackson and inow: Primal therapy would prompt recollection of suppression not coping (e.g. acting out). ?
    I'm not sure I understand your question. Perhaps you can rephrase?


    Primal simply creates new experiences of intense emotion (crying, screaming, yelling, kicking, etc.) and associates them with existing pain and psychological traumas. It really does nothing to heal or accept that existing pain and reorient the individual with his/her larger society. It provides temporary relief in the short-term (I'd suggest that this is due mostly to the endorphins released during these intense outbursts), but according to the data and our modern understanding of the human mind it tends to do nothing... or even make things worse... in the long-term.
    Have you done it yourself ?
     

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    You're not serious, are you?
     

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    Yes, I am serious. You are talking like you know about it - do you know about it, or did you just read it in a book ?
     

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    I don't need to experience wearing magnetic bracelets as a cure for all that ails ya to know that's bunk. I don't need to take a bunch of homeopathic remedies to know they are crap. In much the same way, I don't need to be a participant in primal therapy to know that it has not shown efficacy, often leads to greater neuroses (not less), and is based on questionable and false premises.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I don't need to experience wearing magnetic bracelets as a cure for all that ails ya to know that's bunk. I don't need to take a bunch of homeopathic remedies to know they are crap. In much the same way, I don't need to be a participant in primal therapy to know that it has not shown efficacy, often leads to greater neuroses (not less), and is based on questionable and false premises.
    But you do need to have a reason, nonetheless. Providing support for your claims might do wonders for your argument.
    Dick, be Frank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    I don't need to experience wearing magnetic bracelets as a cure for all that ails ya to know that's bunk. I don't need to take a bunch of homeopathic remedies to know they are crap. In much the same way, I don't need to be a participant in primal therapy to know that it has not shown efficacy, often leads to greater neuroses (not less), and is based on questionable and false premises.
    Oh Y-e-a-h !!!!!!!!

    Everyone is an expert in his armchair. Seems pathetic to me.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Providing support for your claims might do wonders for your argument.
    I don't feel the need to repeat my counter arguments which are available to anyone who simply reviews the previous thread pages. Further, I'm not inclined to respond to the ridiculous tone and nature of rideforever's posts toward me in this thread. I'll ignore him until he discontinues his childish nonsense just like I would ignore a bratty little 5 five year old.
     

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    And I'll be thankful that this thread does not grow chilly with appeals to authority.


    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    @ Jackson and inow: Primal therapy would prompt recollection of suppression not coping (e.g. acting out). ?
    I'm not sure I understand your question. Perhaps you can rephrase?
    Hypothetical scenario: Patient A declares that his mom has having affairs all though his childhood, and this distressed him. Now in a regular group, I think, B might then ask "So how did that change you?" and A: "I felt lost, and alone... and gee you know I was always playing doctor with the other kids around then!" and the puzzle begins to sort out. Meanwhile in a Primal group B is expected to ask "What feelings did you bury?" so it'll take off in another direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Primal simply creates new experiences of intense emotion (crying, screaming, yelling, kicking, etc.) and associates them with existing pain and psychological traumas. It really does nothing to heal or accept that existing pain and reorient the individual with his/her larger society. It provides temporary relief in the short-term (I'd suggest that this is due mostly to the endorphins released during these intense outbursts), but according to the data and our modern understanding of the human mind it tends to do nothing... or even make things worse... in the long-term.
    I trust you're right. But maybe there's a good crystal in Primal, and the fault is only overstating it, as if it can do everything. Most theories run that way: they overextend and then retreat to realistic standing. Maybe ostracizing Primal and so forcing it to do everything makes it worse.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I trust you're right. But maybe there's a good crystal in Primal, and the fault is only overstating it, as if it can do everything. Most theories run that way: they overextend and then retreat to realistic standing. Maybe ostracizing Primal and so forcing it to do everything makes it worse.
    Primal is experiential. You can't 'understand' it without experiencing it. If you read the theory of it then it is only one part of your mind that is 'understanding' it (perhaps the judgemental analytical part) and not other parts, you don't fully 'understand it'. That would be like saying that in a conversation between 2 people the only thing that is transferred is the content, whereas actually many things are transferred through body language and tone, and perhaps even physically.

    Nowadays it seems people spend so much time on the internet they think they can do everything without going anywhere, I can visit Paris on my computer I don't need to go there.
     

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    The only problem I have with primal therapy, is not what primal therapy is. Since I wouldn't claim to know what it is. My claims don't involve understanding primal therapy, but the claims made be specific advocates of primal therapy: that is, you proponents present in this discussion; saying specifically that primal therapy allows you to be real. Which sounds like propaghanda at best.

    You are right, I may not understand what you mean, but the feeling of realness, is something that many a religious and philosophical hierophant claim to possess the secret to. What does your secret have that other secrets don't, and if nothing particular can be said about this secret, except that it's a different way to accomplish the same thing, then claiming it is the best or only is an appeal to the self "this is the best way, because it is the way I use," and again, it is propaganda.

    There is no secret to being real, only ways for your ego(a very real part of your psyche) to identify with a portion of reality.

    For example, maybe I'd rather be useful than real, it doesn't mean by usefulness is false. How do you know your feeling of realness is real? How are you defining real?
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

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