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View Poll Results: These Important Revolutionary Concepts are Valid,True,and Desrve to be Promoted

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  • I agree

    3 33.33%
  • I disagree

    4 44.44%
  • I don`t know enough about it to have a valid opinion

    1 11.11%
  • I want to learn more about Primal Therapy

    1 11.11%
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Thread: Primal Therapy:The true CURE for neurosis ...

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    The only problem I have with primal therapy, is not what primal therapy is. Since I wouldn't claim to know what it is. My claims don't involve understanding primal therapy, but the claims made be specific advocates of primal therapy: that is, you proponents present in this discussion; saying specifically that primal therapy allows you to be real. Which sounds like propaghanda at best.

    You are right, I may not understand what you mean, but the feeling of realness, is something that many a religious and philosophical hierophant claim to possess the secret to. What does your secret have that other secrets don't, and if nothing particular can be said about this secret, except that it's a different way to accomplish the same thing, then claiming it is the best or only is an appeal to the self "this is the best way, because it is the way I use," and again, it is propaganda.

    There is no secret to being real, only ways for your ego(a very real part of your psyche) to identify with a portion of reality.

    For example, maybe I'd rather be useful than real, it doesn't mean by usefulness is false. How do you know your feeling of realness is real? How are you defining real?
    Wow lot's of interesting stuff there.

    I am not a proponent of primal therapy : I just found it useful last weekend - I didn't read up about it much, I just went, experienced and felt it was useful - I don't think the descriptions that I have read meant much ... you do it yourself, it is what you want it to be - it's up to you. I suppose it is like meditation, you can read about it ... but that means nothing - only by doing it can you understand.

    "There is no secret to being real" ... I disagree here. The mind is subtle and it's veils many and subtle. From my experiences of meditation I just think you are plain plain wrong.

    You use the words "claim" and "defining" ... like "how are you defining real ?". These words are mind words, they are a layer above your experience. Would you like to go below ? Do you have an incling to go below ?

    As for religious and other propaganda - leave it. Funny, in the 'old days' many went with religious propaganda, today many go against it (reactionary) ... but it is all the same to go with or go against.

    The only direction that may be useful is the direction to look inside yourself, you can trust that, and perhaps only that.
     

  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider Forever
    Primal is experiential. You can't 'understand' it without experiencing it. If you read the theory of it then it is only one part of your mind that is 'understanding' it (perhaps the judgemental analytical part) and not other parts, you don't fully 'understand it'. That would be like saying that in a conversation between 2 people the only thing that is transferred is the content, whereas actually many things are transferred through body language and tone, and perhaps even physically.
    Man, I'm pickin' up acid flashbacks just reading that. I grok, you know?

    Yet this sounds a lot like emperor's clothes to me. Since heroin users articulate their experience so it's understood by the unenlightened, and physicists relate their mindbending take on physical reality to laypeople, I expect Primals to be capable of explanation. "You do it yourself, it is what you want it to be - it's up to you" is vague enough to qualify home composting and yo-yo as Primal Therapy. Maybe Primals can't give clues because they really haven't any?

    (that's a challenge not an insult)
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  3. #103  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Maybe Primals can't give clues because they really haven't any?
    Yes, maybe.

    Maybe 10 people in a Primal session are all thinking completely different things - they all think they are doing the same thing when actually they are doing different things ! Ha - it's actually funny.

    Like ... 10 people read a white paper on a theory, and afterwards they all say 'oh thanks I got it' ... but there's no way to tell if they have a similar understanding. No way at all. Likelihood is 10 people thinking 10 different things now - but mistakenly putting the same label on them !! Man that is funny.

    "Yes, wow great theory I really understand" ... says Person A thinking B, to Person C thinking D !
     

  4. #104  
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    Like ... 10 people read a white paper on a theory, and afterwards they all say 'oh thanks I got it' ... but there's no way to tell if they have a similar understanding. No way at all. Likelihood is 10 people thinking 10 different things now - but mistakenly putting the same label on them !! Man that is funny.
    This isn't true. You can discuss what you have learned and find out that way. Why don't you do that? You are making another really ridiculous claim, with some unsavoury flavour to boot.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

  5. #105  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    ..
    What's unsavoury - you mean nasty ? What did I say ?

    Anyway, I think it is self evident that you can't compare thoughts in different people's heads for equivalence.

    Yes you can discuss and maybe this has value, but I think the first point is relatively unthoughtabout and has implications.
     

  6. #106 Primal Therapy and efficacy 
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    There seems to be a lot of "prove it" statements in regards to the efficacy of Primal Therapy. I "primalled" for about 18 months and found the experience to be hugely transformative: I am less nervous in social circumstances, I communicate my emotions much more clearly, I am able to remain in stressful conversations longer and with more patience. The latter has led to greater connections with co workers and friends and family. I've been able to support friends through difficult times.

    The above is all anecdotal, I recognize, if someone would provide me their definition of "efficacy", I would be happy to work and see if I can provide more insight to Primal Therapy.

    Best,

    OW
     

  7. #107  
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    ""There is no secret to being real" ... I disagree here. The mind is subtle and it's veils many and subtle. From my experiences of meditation I just think you are plain plain wrong. "

    The mind's veils? What are you referring to, since you are clearly not referring to something made of cloth, you must be speaking ambiguously. Care to elucidate, maybe using modern psychological/neurological concepts?

    I think our mind uses a lot(~20%?) of our bodies energy, as this is confirmed by neural biology. I believe that so called "veils" are not lies, but means to conserve energy. Of course if you were more specific about what you mean by "veils" It might be clear that I am wrong, but since you are not specific, I am forced to assume.

    The mind is not hiding things from us, it is just focusing it's energy on what is more important at any given time.

    We have limited resources, and cannot be aware of all things at a time. Mindfulness meditation exercises the minds ability to remain sensitized to static reality, but there is no reason to believe it is the best or only method to do so.(edit: more than simply confirming "this can accomplish that," is required to prove that "this is the best and/or only way to accomplish that")

    There are different types of meditation with markedly different uses, so please be more specific which you are talking about.

    "As for religious and other propaganda - leave it. Funny, in the 'old days' many went with religious propaganda, today many go against it (reactionary) ... but it is all the same to go with or go against. "

    Well, those aren't the only options. I won't leave it, or take it, unless something of substance, useful or otherwise, reveals itself. Until then I'll observe, share and inquire.

    "The only direction that may be useful is the direction to look inside yourself, you can trust that, and perhaps only that."

    What part of myself? I trust my liver and colon lately, as I've been eating more fiber, I literally feel lighter and more energetic after thoroughly satisfying bowl movements. I trust 3rd party perspective, do you have a reason that I shouldn't?(without revealing the hypocrisy that I should trust yours?)

    "but there's no way to tell if they have a similar understanding. No way at all. "

    Not until substance is brought into the discussion. Hence my persistence.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

  8. #108 Re: Primal Therapy and efficacy 
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    Quote Originally Posted by oscarwilde
    There seems to be a lot of "prove it" statements in regards to the efficacy of Primal Therapy.
    I won't consider the efficacy of Primal Therapy until I know more about it. I asked before: Explain it.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  9. #109 PT Efficacy 
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    With all due respect Iso, I didn't come here to do your work for you. I've detected a certain obstinacy in your comments as well. I'm willing to work with you on a matter that is experiential, even though you have not done the work. All I'm asking is for your working definition of efficacy because right now all I know is that you can use big words.
     

  10. #110 Re: PT Efficacy 
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    Quote Originally Posted by oscarwilde
    With all due respect Iso, I didn't come here to do your work for you.
    One *does,* however, hope you came to a discussion forum to discuss. And since the efficacy of a questionable claim has been raised, one hopes you're at least willing to either defend that efficacy with evidence or revise your support as mere anecdote in light of the placebo effect.

    I'm willing to work with you on a matter that is experiential, even though you have not done the work.
    He has no burden of "work." He is not making a claim or defending one. Rather, he's calling. He's not raising by making a counter-claim. He's merely calling the bet already on the table. Either put down the cards or fold.

    if someone would provide me their definition of "efficacy", I would be happy to work and see if I can provide more insight to Primal Therapy.
    All I'm asking is for your working definition of efficacy because right now all I know is that you can use big words.
    Surely you aren't implying that efficacy is a "big word?" If so, then perhaps your part of the discussion here (discussion means talk among each other back and forth; I offer that definition since it's two letters more than "efficacy") is completed.

    Efficacy refers to the ability of a medical claim produce an intended result. Best measured with controlled experiments that employ double-blind methodologies. You need only cite the literature that published the results of a double-blind study on this primal mumbo-jumbo to put us all in a position to revise our opinions.

    We await your citation.
     

  11. #111  
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    One thing that has got lost throughout this thread, is the acceptance of a therapy procedure, by the patient. Mild mental health problems (which we're talking about) can not be treated as a broken leg or bout with the flu. In many cases anti depressants or some form of mild medication can be suggested, are common but not a cure. The idea of Psychoanalytical Diagnosis and Therapy is to talk the person into understanding the causes, that brought on the problem in the first place. The more the patient accepts the approach to that end, the better will be the results/response.

    Skin Walker, since you have entered the conversation for other than banning the original author (which by the way a week has passed), let me ask you a question. If an alcoholic, believes that group therapy has helped him/her from drinking or a drug addict believes he/she has been helped by any therapy, would you suggest they are NOT being helped, if your OPINION is the procedures are not acceptable by others? I have previously gone over the placebo effect and in Medical Cases, it HAS worked on practically every test the process has been used, for some people. Are these people, really not reacting or is it possibly the mind is a strange thing and able to achieve only what the subject expects? I don't care if a person feels drinking a glass of xy or z each morning, will achieve any goal and it does for them, the proof is to that person. Every person, who lives past 90, is asked the same question, what do you contribute your long life to and most all have a personal reason, none of which would make scientific sense....
     

  12. #112  
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    Pong; I do believe your continuous request for explanations ARE and have been very reasonable and that your NOT getting the answers you earnestly seek. I hope the above response to SW, gives a little added insight into that question.

    Factually and IMO, there may be actual reasons for any abnormal behavior in any person throughout a lifetime. I feel we are, have or will go through periods, that others would feel ARE in fact, abnormal. Many extreme cases, like mass killings, sexual conduct, down to just theft may be impulse reactions to these events. I would think understanding the mind, especially during nurturing and childhood, are instrumental for much of this. Furthermore, it's my belief that as civilized society develops, these tendencies are and have been justifiably repressed in the human psychic. There are not many school shootings going on outside this civilized society and a good many sexual activities seen abnormal to the so called civilized world, are in fact every day practices in the lessor civilized societies. Today, we also have a greater mixing of societies, where folks from one enter another's, where this accepted norm is different and further repressing individuals. I don't have any answers, but if all roads do lead to Rome, then what ever road a person takes to get to Rome, should be fine...
     

  13. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    let me ask you a question. If an alcoholic, believes that group therapy has helped him/her from drinking or a drug addict believes he/she has been helped by any therapy, would you suggest they are NOT being helped, if your OPINION is the procedures are not acceptable by others?
    If they are being helped by the therapy, then it would show up in tests and research. One could demonstrate efficacy if it does, in fact, work. The burden of proof of efficacy is no different for group therapy to treat alcoholism than it is with primal therapy.

    If it works, it can be demonstrated that it works. If it cannot be demonstrated that it works, then the claims that it does are vacuous and can be safely dismissed as little more than hand-waving and anecdote.

    As a general rule, if something truly works, then it's not very difficult to demonstrate efficacy in a scientific manner.
     

  14. #114  
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    if a person attributes going to a group session, take for example AA, where they are preached to about god's love, over a cup of stimulants; then there is room to question the efficacy of a lot of things. How much of the healing is due to being a part of a group and would be seen in any and all groups? how much of it is based on the combination of endorphins, stimulants, introspection, self expression, and participation in a clearly defined social hierarchy?

    all that can be said about a group is it consists of multiple individuals

    in psychotherapy a group therapy session consists of multiple patients, and possibly multiple therapists, I'm sure there are some standards as to how many patients should be grouped together, as well as suggestions as to which personalities therapists should avoid mixing in groups, depending on the nature of the therapy.
    Dick, be Frank.

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  15. #115  
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    The burden of proof of efficacy is no different for group therapy to treat alcoholism than it is with primal therapy.
    inow; I have no idea why you are so obsessed with folks seeking out help, in a manner YOU perceive, useless. I understand your self taught on this issue, can estimate the reasons and are opposed to any form of alternative/experimental MEDICAL treatment, Homeopathy mentioned. In Psychology, these phobias and other disorders (again, beyond an accepted norm) are generally self perceived, or the mind has created the problem in the first place. You have three people, on this thread (assume different), that have declared some response under 'Primal Therapy' to the positive. That in itself is statistical, ESPECIALLY to those three people.

    The Primal Center of British Columbia Canada...one of the list of Drug and Alcohol Treatment Centers in North America and the rest of the list;

    Primal Therapy which is the amazing process
    to access the memory of our Cellular Consciousness
    to undo our early painful experiences and
    to restore our original innocent self.
    http://www.soberrecovery.com/links/c...ndtherapy.html

    You might check out the term 'self efficacy', a term I relate to and explains my approach to this issue. The Patient's ACCEPTANCE of a therapy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-efficacy

    I am not here trying to endorse or advise anyone of what therapy to choose, for any particular personal mental disorder/problem. No doubt, I'd have never posted on this thread in the first place, were it not for your insistence the author himself was literally out of his own mind. "Primal', whether from birth or pre-birth, could very well be instrumental (probably is) in establishing our individual behaviors or at least those experiences are part of our subconscious mind. I'll offer you this list of more current studies, which for the most part could never be proved or statistically significance be assigned, at least to the satisfaction of traditional medicine.

    http://primal-page.com/reflect.htm

    marcus; Not a whole lot of Drug Addicts and Alcoholics, are believers in a God. If they do have some belief, all the better/easier for the therapist. If the patient relates to a higher power than him/herself, it's easy to change the excuse used for the problem to that power. If not that person must be convinced him/herself is capable of solving the problem on their own. I happen to believe in the second, as any future problem could be perceived a failure in the system or treatment.

    Since it would seem, you have little faith in group therapy to begin with, I doubt any group discussion would be worthwhile, which would beg the question....
     

  16. #116  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    inow; I have no idea why you are so obsessed with folks seeking out help, in a manner YOU perceive, useless. I understand your self taught on this issue,
    No, actually I trained at university for several years under people who know far about this stuff than you. Thanks, though.

    And... for the record... I am "opposed," not "obsessed." I oppose ridiculous claims in all their forms when I encounter them (as in the aforementioned homeopathy crap). I am an equal opportunity basher of ridiculous nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    You might check out the term 'self efficacy', a term I relate to and explains my approach to this issue. The Patient's ACCEPTANCE of a therapy.
    Actually, no. Try again. "Self-Efficacy" is a person's belief in their own ability to accomplish something. For example, I am unfamiliar with water skiing, and have a low self-efficacy in my water skiing skills. However, I ride my motorcycle all of the time, and have a very high self-efficacy on my motorcycle riding abilities. My belief in my ability to successfully control a motorbike is high, therefore I have a high self-efficacy for riding motorcycles.

    Self-efficacy is a VASTLY different concept than efficacy itself, and has nothing whatsoever to do with a patient's acceptance of a form of therapy. Further, just so we're clear, the efficacy being described/requested in this thread is about scientifically demonstrating that a treatment approach to mental health results in consistently positive outcomes (when controlling for confounding variables) and is a reasonable alternative to other approaches.

    Primal therapy is NOT a reasonable alternative, and efficacy has yet to be demonstrated. Please stop talking about things you barely understand.



    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    No doubt, I'd have never posted on this thread in the first place, were it not for your insistence the author himself was literally out of his own mind.
    He is a neurotic man with a lot of psychological trauma who has done himself a great disservice by settling on a debunked approach to healing his mind. My posts in this thread are an attempt to have him seek REAL help, and concurrently to ensure other readers don't take his claims of effectiveness seriously.

    Your participation in this thread changes none of that.
     

  17. #117  
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    No, actually I trained at university for several years under people who know far about this stuff than you. Thanks, though.
    inow; It has been 50+ years ago, but I also studied Psychology a couple years under the Major, Criminology. University of Wisconsin, Whitewater. This was before the concept of 'Primal' but with strong subconscious influences. However as said, several times, I am not promoting or recommending any therapy, nor am I going to dismiss the success seen and believed by those that taken or studied the process. Thats the essence of psychology in the first place, go with what works. Out of curiosity, do you actually believe you know more than Jovan?

    He is a neurotic man with a lot of psychological trauma who has done himself a great disservice by settling on a debunked approach to healing his mind. My posts in this thread are an attempt to have him seek REAL help, and concurrently to ensure other readers don't take his claims of effectiveness seriously.
    No sir and your bordering on libelous accusations. First; You have pushed this one poster into extreme emotional stress over a several month period, on three forums, never once mentioning he needed to seek any help, much less, conventional psychiatric help. If you and your "said" experiences detected or could diagnose "lot of psychological trauma", not even you would have done this. Second; He suffers from no less than what 30-40% of Vietnam Vets (you should already know this, with your studies), to various degrees have suffered. I can't fully explain the cause or reasons, but I've seen it many times. It would be my guess, he is much like the many I've known, on anti depressants, or mind altering drugs (prescribed by your conventional psychiatric practitioners, with no answers) and is having trouble 'articulating' under there effects. We had another person on this forum, a couple years ago, also using doctor in his user name (possibly the same person), that suffered many of the same problems, living in a delusional world of science. Third; Your trying to discredit an 'Internationally Accepted' form of therapy based on partial results of the original concept. I offered you a site, listing several dozens current studies along the lines of 'Primal', which is not the over all basis for todays practiced therapy.

    Your participation in this thread changes none of that.
    Sorry, but my participation on this thread or any you post in, is not or ever will be to try and change your mind. You have made well over 20K post on the three forums I'm aware of and your response is ALWAYS predictable, as mine must seem to you. Aside from that, I've seen you in action, publicly with too many people (many your friends), including moderators and I have no desire to tangle with your methods. Funny thing though, I've been asked at least four times to do just that, tangle.
     

  18. #118  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    Thats the essence of psychology in the first place, go with what works.
    I hold a different view. I see psychology as "science of the mind," and place the greatest emphasis on the "science" part. For that reason, I expect the scientific method to be followed, and for claims that are not rooted in science to be rejected.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    Out of curiosity, do you actually believe you know more than Jovan?
    I presume you mean "Janov?" What I know relative to him is completely irrelevant, and really never enters my thoughts. What I do think (IMO) is that he is somewhat delusional, and that if his approach to mental health had merit then that merit would be readily demonstrable via tests of efficacy. Since those tests are lacking (or even show a lack of efficacy) I maintain my opposition to this approach to mental health.

    My comments about Dr.Syntax' mental health were not intended as an attack, but as a case-in-point that primal therapy is obviously NOT "the true cure for neurosis."


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    Quote Originally Posted by iNow
    He is a neurotic man with a lot of psychological trauma who has done himself a great disservice by settling on a debunked approach to healing his mind. My posts in this thread are an attempt to have him seek REAL help, and concurrently to ensure other readers don't take his claims of effectiveness seriously.
    No sir and your bordering on libelous accusations. First; You have pushed this one poster into extreme emotional stress over a several month period, on three forums,
    I've only interacted with Dr.Syntax on one other forum. Please don't exaggerate.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    never once mentioning he needed to seek any help, much less, conventional psychiatric help.
    Please read this very thread where I did exactly that... Dr.Syntax even responded and thanked me for my post.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    You have made well over 20K post on the three forums I'm aware of
    Again, please don't exaggerate. I have made no where near that many posts.



    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    I have no desire to tangle with your methods.
    Fair enough. If that's the case, though... why do you keep responding to my posts and inviting a response? You're not being logically consistent with your points, I'm afraid. If you have no desire to "tangle with my methods," then stop responding to my posts. It's rather simple, really. You need to realize that when you press that Submit button and put forth a post that individuals such as myself are not only allowed to respond, but will sometimes feel compelled to do so.

    If you raise valid points, Jackson, and support your arguments logically and with evidence, then there will be no quarrel between us. I guarantee it. Enjoy your night, friend.
     

  19. #119 iNow, I never thanked you for anything. I responded.... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    Thats the essence of psychology in the first place, go with what works.
    I hold a different view. I see psychology as "science of the mind," and place the greatest emphasis on the "science" part. For that reason, I expect the scientific method to be followed, and for claims that are not rooted in science to be rejected.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    Out of curiosity, do you actually believe you know more than Jovan?
    I presume you mean "Janov?" What I know relative to him is completely irrelevant, and really never enters my thoughts. What I do think (IMO) is that he is somewhat delusional, and that if his approach to mental health had merit then that merit would be readily demonstrable via tests of efficacy. Since those tests are lacking (or even show a lack of efficacy) I maintain my opposition to this approach to mental health.

    My comments about Dr.Syntax' mental health were not intended as an attack, but as a case-in-point that primal therapy is obviously NOT "the true cure for neurosis."


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    Quote Originally Posted by iNow
    He is a neurotic man with a lot of psychological trauma who has done himself a great disservice by settling on a debunked approach to healing his mind. My posts in this thread are an attempt to have him seek REAL help, and concurrently to ensure other readers don't take his claims of effectiveness seriously.
    No sir and your bordering on libelous accusations. First; You have pushed this one poster into extreme emotional stress over a several month period, on three forums,
    I've only interacted with Dr.Syntax on one other forum. Please don't exaggerate.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    never once mentioning he needed to seek any help, much less, conventional psychiatric help.
    Please read this very thread where I did exactly that... Dr.Syntax even responded and thanked me for my post.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    You have made well over 20K post on the three forums I'm aware of
    Again, please don't exaggerate. I have made no where near that many posts.



    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    I have no desire to tangle with your methods.
    Fair enough. If that's the case, though... why do you keep responding to my posts and inviting a response? You're not being logically consistent with your points, I'm afraid. If you have no desire to "tangle with my methods," then stop responding to my posts. It's rather simple, really. You need to realize that when you press that Submit button and put forth a post that individuals such as myself are not only allowed to respond, but will sometimes feel compelled to do so.

    If you raise valid points, Jackson, and support your arguments logically and with evidence, then there will be no quarrel between us. I guarantee it. Enjoy your night, friend.

    REPLY: I never thanked you for anything as you say I did. I went over that post you linked to and I said I doubt we will ever agree about PRIMAL THERAPY. Please remember you had made a sincere apology to me and I responded to that apology. I believe you were sincere and I responded to that apology in I guess my usual way. A deep appreciation for it , and did cry. Things had gotten so ugly and painful between us that I cried when I read your apology.
    This does not mean that I thanked you for straightening me out about Primal Therapy and that I am in some way grateful to you for having done so. THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID AND YOU SHOULD KNOW IT. Do not twist my words to serve your purposes.
    PRIMAL THERAPY WORKS and it saved my life. The conventional therapy I was getting at the VA mental hospital included 12 of the old high voltage type shock treatments and massive doses of thorazine. I actually went home on a Christmas pass and did not know my OWN NAME. I was like a zombie or something. Alive, I could see, I knew I was home but did not know any of my brothers or sisters names. Things like that. That is what conventional THERAPY had reduced me to.
    I doubt you have been in a public mental hospital as a patient. I will say this: It is much more concerned with the ease and comfort of the staff than it is with so called patient care. So , if you are this zombie like person they can pretty much ignore and not be bothered by, their job is that much easier.
    That is the way it was for me where and when I was there. There was a Korean War Vet there they had lobotomized. I will never forget him. He stood facing a wall and would push his head at the wall all day long and groan and make noises. So compared to some others I was fortunate.
    I am going to ask you again: Have you read even one of Dr.Janov`s books ? You do present yourself as someone who has considerable expertise on the subject of Primal Therapy. I think it is a fair question to ask you. And if you have let me discuss with you what you disagree with. Something he wrote, not some crap you read on the web somewhere. I say it is absolutely unfair and unscientific for you to ask me to respond to anyone else`s interpretations of Primal Therapy. Janov has written at least 10 books I am aware of. Surely you can read one of them. They are not some huge textbooks.
    Anyway, it is good to be back in the forum. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  20. #120 Re: Primal Therapy and efficacy 
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    [quote="Pong"]
    Quote Originally Posted by oscarwilde
    There seems to be a lot of "prove it" statements in regards to the efficacy of Primal Therapy.
    I won't consider the efficacy of Primal Therapy until I know more about it. I asked before: Explain it.[/quote



    REPLY: If you want PRIMAL THERAPY explained to you as you keep saying you do I can suggest no better source than Dr. Janov himself. After all, he is the person who created it and is a well spoken person who speaks in common everyday terms. Does not use any sort of specialized jargon to explain things. His website is: [ http://www.primaltherapy.com ]. There is no signing in. You can read as much or as little as you desire. There are also some videos with audio if you don`t feel like reading. It is all free of charge. So if you actually want to learn what it is all about just click that weblink and go for it.
    I will give you a short interpretation by me if for some reason you would prefer that. Primal Therapy is for people who are neurotic. So if you are well and happy with your life and everything is hunky dory, don`t waste your time with it. Why seek help you don`t need or have any desire for ?
    If this is NOT the case for you and are not so happy with your life there is Primal Therapy. Primal Theory is based on the premise that neurotic, mentally ill people live in a state of perpetually suppressing unresolved feelings including : pain, loneliness, fears, anxiety, anger. Any and all unresolved feelings.
    For most neurotics these unresolved feelings originated in the very early period of thier lives. There is even what is known as prenatal pain and birth pain. Pain the originated before they were born and often while being born. Then, as the years go by, this pain gets added to by the neurotic parents who are incapable of providing for the real needs of a developing child. Most children are trained not to cry or have tantrums.Crying and having tantrums are the natural mechanisms for healing the nervous system. When this source of relief is denied a child or a person of any age the pain just keeps accumulating,piles up inside as you move on through time. We all have a certain amount of stress and such we have to live through. Most people by the time they reach adulthood have pretty much quit crying. They just keep stuffing more and more pain and it piles up inside. Who does not recall chocking back their tears ?
    So, even after successful PRIMAL THERAPY life will at times confront you with some new source of pain. Primal Therapy is a way of living one`s life. You allow yourself to have your feelings whatever they are. This does not mean you go and act out feelings such as anger on others,no. What you learn to do is have some room in your home and let it out there. If you are angry at some one, like the boss for instance you tell him of there in that PRIMAL ROOM. He is not actually there of course but perhaps you have a girlfriend or friend of yours who understands what`s going on and is there to listen. This is very helpful if you can arrange for it. This is called the buddy system and is one of the things the people in the Primal Group I started out with commonly did for each other. After you get to a certain point in therapy you no longer need a professional Therapist to have PRIMALS. There are groups of Primal Therapy people who organize get togethers around some of America and other Nations. Rideforever wrote in this forum about a PRIMAL WEEKEND he had attended. You can do computer searches and find out where such get togethers are being held. There is the " International Primal Association" and others.
    Human birth can often be difficult because of the relatively large size of our heads at the time of birth. Many times the fetus can not turn itself around to be properly positioned for birth. This is called a breech birth when the baby comes out feet first. Often a CAESARIAN SECTION is performed in these situations and the baby is removed surgically. All these things are stressful to the infant. Many infants die while being born.
    So, assuming you make it out alive you are now totally dependent on your parents care for you. Infants need a lot of care. They need to be close at all times to their mother or some substitute for her, and know that they are being looked after constantly for about the first 2 years of thier lives. When these needs go unmet the child becomes distressed. If this distress continues long enough the child learns to shut down inside, turn off it`s feelings. Generally babies cry when distressed but many parents ignore their crying or punish them for crying. These are some of the things that cause neurosis. As the child grows older these mechanisms for shunting away pain become automatic and an unconscious mind developes where all these unresolved hurts get stored away. The feelings do not disappear, they get stored throughout the nervous system and body of the neurotic child. These feelings are always there pressing forth, seeking resolution. This will result in all sorts of conditions: compulsive overeating, drug and alcohol addiction, sexual dysfuntion and on and on.
    In Primal Therapy the patient is provided a safe place with a skilled and caring therapist to allow themselves to feel and resolve all these repressed feelings. The therapist`s job is to help the patient allow these feelings to emerge from within themselves and aid the patient in accessing these feelings and allow these feelings to work there way through the patients defense mechanisms. When this is done successfully the feelings start seeping into the patients conscious mind. Often at this point the patient will begin crying and such. It`s a delicate process. When done correctly the patient may cry deeply for an hour or more. Or may get angry or frightened and the feeling may go deeper and into some other feeling. You never know where these primals are going to take you. Each one can be a good bit different or the patient may stay with a certain feeling for any number of sessions. It is somewhat different for everyone and there are many common themes so to speak also. Once you have a successful primal that much more of the pain you carry about with you is resolved and no longer pressing forth from within in you. I could go on but that is basically what it is all about. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  21. #121  
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    Thanks! :-D

    There's some I agree with, some I'm not so sure of... but it might just be a difference in terms. I'll post again later for clarifications.

    Don't get banned. :wink:
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  22. #122 Re: iNow, I never thanked you for anything. I responded.... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    never once mentioning he needed to seek any help, much less, conventional psychiatric help.
    Quote Originally Posted by iNow
    Please read this very thread where I did exactly that... Dr.Syntax even responded and thanked me for my post.
    REPLY: I never thanked you for anything as you say I did.

    <...>

    This does not mean that I thanked you for straightening me out about Primal Therapy and that I am in some way grateful to you for having done so. THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID AND YOU SHOULD KNOW IT. Do not twist my words to serve your purposes.
    Sigh...
    I twisted nothing. I was using a rhetorical shorthand and said you'd "thanked me." I never said I'd convinced you primal was bunk, or that I'd finally helped you to "see the light."

    I merely used the word "thanked" to represent the appreciative tone of your response.

    If you'd like to blast me for that, then I'm afraid we're done here, and it's rather unfortunate that the neurosis is still so prominent in your contributions.
     

  23. #123  
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    inow quotes;

    I hold a different view. I see psychology as "science of the mind," and place the greatest emphasis on the "science" part. For that reason, I expect the scientific method to be followed, and for claims that are not rooted in science to be rejected.
    I'm sure Neurology is based on research, science, precedent and results, but as far as I'm aware of we're talking about 'analytic psychology'.

    Since those tests are lacking (or even show a lack of efficacy) I maintain my opposition to this approach to mental health.
    Maintain all you wish, but once again any results are to the patient and again there is no one cure for all problems.

    My comments about Dr.Syntax' mental health were not intended as an attack, but as a case-in-point that primal therapy is obviously NOT "the true cure for neurosis."
    Your comments were directed in part AT the poster, additionally to the forums moderators. My point in the recent post were directed at your claimed education, therefore experience, which should have alerted you to the posters mental status, it did not.

    I've only interacted with Dr.Syntax on one other forum. Please don't exaggerate.
    You may be correct, as my own post in mentioning 'Dr.CWho' from some time back, probably was the one I was thinking about on 'Hypo". I remember welcoming him, there and warning of tough treatment by posters there. He assured me, he had tamed down his comments, but did not last long. I can't say it is the same person, since 'Dr.CWho' has never been banned here, but there are MANY similarities.

    Again, please don't exaggerate. I have made no where near that many posts.
    Picky, picky....You have just short of 9k on one forum, 8.5K on another and 444 post here, to your credit 99% probably (have not read them all, based on rep points etc) very informative. So the 18K actual post (I know of) and just as important the many more you have read, establish an experience for posting, getting along with moderators/administration, while in many cases being somewhat arrogant, IMO. 'syntax' and 99.9% of people posting are no competition, for you.

    Fair enough. If that's the case, though... why do you keep responding to my posts and inviting a response? You're not being logically consistent with your points, I'm afraid. If you have no desire to "tangle with my methods," then stop responding to my posts.
    Do you even realize how many times, I've jumped in between you and some one opposed to your views. Aside from that, Politics/History/Law are my preferred subjects to post under and you always seem to be there.


    dr.syntax; Welcome back and as Pong said, "Don't get yourself banned". Using these public forums can be a good release from everyday reality, especially here, where so many are from around the world, which I find refreshing. Promoting something "PT", can be seen or the idea can be seen as other than I believe are your reasons for mentioning and this always gets moderators shook up. They have good reason, to control spamming.

    I'll ask you this way, do you live in Anderson, Indiana? IF NOT, forget my next comment. It's possible your situation is deteriorating from what little I have to work with. I still believe drugs are involved (probably legal), but it's up to you and your VA Hospital/Doctor, to work out something. In case you didn't read a previous post, your likely into your 60's now, running a little ahead of the average aging process and are going to experience some major (but normal) changes.

    Your Korean Vet room mate (must have been a few years back), was no doubt heavily medicated or said politely near brain dead for some reason. It's never surprised me how far some of the medical professionals will go to push off (medicate) folks, when it's felt their life time is short, usefulness gone (if not dollars) and there MAY not be time to TRY something new in treatments. If you are from Anderson, and want my opinion, send a PM, and I'll address you there.



    Pong; Think you have mentioned Vancouver, Canada. If so a simple phone call to the below, will get you the latest scoop on treatments sent to your mailbox. Am sure they deal in more than Drug/Alcohol Treatments...

    The Primal Center of British Columbia Canada...one of the list of Drug and Alcohol Treatment Centers in North America and the rest of the list;


    Primal Therapy which is the amazing process
    to access the memory of our Cellular Consciousness
    to undo our early painful experiences and
    to restore our original innocent self.

    http://www.soberrecovery.com/links/c...ndtherapy.html
     

  24. #124 To my friend, Jackson33 
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    My Friend, Jackson33, I need to make this clear to you, I AM NOT this other person you say I remind you of in some ways. I very much appreciate the support you have shown for me. Also, I am not a doctor and don`t pretend to be one. Dr.Syntax is a fictional character that became a popular motif on a series of English Staffordshire transferware in the early 19th century. This series is known as : The Tours of Dr.Syntax. I was an antique dealer in Boston for quite a while and this sort of pottery was one of my specialties.[ English transferware in general ] So that is where this web name came from.
    I have been waiting for someone to recognize the name and inquire about it. No one ever has. It is quite rare and of considerable value. So much for that.
    As to Primal Therapy: I consider Dr. Janovs discovery and developement of what he named: Primal Therapy to be THE MOST IMPORTANT MEDICAL ACHIEVEMENT OF ALL TIME. Because so many of the ailments plaguing mankind, both psychiatric and physiological are the direct result of this ongoing legacy of inadequate parenting resulting in people stuffed full of pain and misery by a very early age.
    These unresolved feelings do great damage to the physical health of all neurotics as well as making their lives miserable.
    From reading the different postings it is clear to me few if any have bothered to read anything Dr.Janov has written. The one exception would be OscarWilde and sadly he seems to have lost interest in this forum at least at this time. I was hoping to hear more from him. Rideforever appears to have attended a PRIMAL WEEKEND which is wonderful and I am glad he had some meaningful experiences there. But from some of the things he posted I get the impression he has not read up on it very much. I may be wrong about this. That is the impression I got from reading his postings and I am not one to tell others how to live their lives and spend their time.
    I am at a point in my life when I want to do something with what time I have left to benefit mankind. I know you don`t totally buy into Primal Theory. I also know that you know that I do. I want to do what I can to see that Dr. Janov`s theories and therapy get promoted and recognized for what I believe it to be. The only way out of this cycle of insanity our world has been trapped in throughout recorded history. I wrote my own little thesis about this in the: Behavior and Psychology section of this forum. It is titled: Cultural Evolution of Mankind Led to Universal Neurosis of Our Species. It`s a short read. Let me know what you really think of it. It is original to me and I think I am correct in my analysis. Why else would I have written it, it just occurred to me.
    You should also know this about me. I am not someone who buys into any sort of belief system. Not religion, no philosophy, no gurus or ANYTHING like that. I have studied what Janov has written and it just makes sense to me the same way that Darwin`s concepts about evolution do. Everything he says just adds up, fits together and makes sense.
    He doesn`t speak in vague terms about anything. His book: THE ANATOMY OF MENTAL ILLNESS goes into great detail about the physical realities of just what he is talking about. Just exactly what the different aspects or parts of the brain and nervous system are involved in the blocking and storing of pain for instance. His research is so far beyond anything else out there that there really is nothing else to compare it to. Some of the researchers that work with him include medical doctors, psychiatrists and I will check into it some more before saying more than that. I am not sure of all the different types of specialists that have been working with him in his ongoing research.
    Anyway, it is good to check in with you again. Your Friend, Dr.Syntax
     

  25. #125 Hello Pong.... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Thanks! :-D

    There's some I agree with, some I'm not so sure of... but it might just be a difference in terms. I'll post again later for clarifications.

    Don't get banned. :wink:

    REPLY: Hello Pong, You are welcome. I will try very hard not to get banned. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  26. #126 Re: iNow, I never thanked you for anything. I responded.... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    never once mentioning he needed to seek any help, much less, conventional psychiatric help.
    Quote Originally Posted by iNow
    Please read this very thread where I did exactly that... Dr.Syntax even responded and thanked me for my post.
    REPLY: I never thanked you for anything as you say I did.

    <...>

    This does not mean that I thanked you for straightening me out about Primal Therapy and that I am in some way grateful to you for having done so. THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID AND YOU SHOULD KNOW IT. Do not twist my words to serve your purposes.
    Sigh...
    I twisted nothing. I was using a rhetorical shorthand and said you'd "thanked me." I never said I'd convinced you primal was bunk, or that I'd finally helped you to "see the light."

    I merely used the word "thanked" to represent the appreciative tone of your response.

    If you'd like to blast me for that, then I'm afraid we're done here, and it's rather unfortunate that the neurosis is still so prominent in your contributions.
    REPLY: The only thing I can think of to say is that I am sorry. I misinterpreted you and hurt you, and I am sorry. Please accept my apology. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  27. #127 Re: To my friend, Jackson33 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    ..
    Yes, I think Primal Therapy is very good for you. I will be doing more, there is another weekend in London at the OpenCentre in early December so I think I shall go to that.

    As for the theory, well theory is fine but I am not going to let a theory get its hands on me if it does feel right ... and it does, so that's fine.

    It seems to me that all Primal is is a setting were you are encouraged to do exactly whatever you want, scream, sing, pull out your tadger and wave it around ... anything. It's a pretty amazing feeling, and leaves an impact. Going back into the real world afterwards is quite weird because you see how hopelessly repressed everyone is.

    As for it being a cure for mankind - I wish ! Sure, if you could get everyone to do it.

    It really does feel good and natural, and back to who I am - I do recommend it, but not because of the theory just because it feels good.
     

  28. #128  
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    dr.syntax; You probably have no idea how your responses today are different than others in the recent past. Articulate, well presented and to the point.
    I am pleased to know you are not 'DrCWho', but keep in mind, I held no distaste/hatred toward him either.

    No, I am not a strong supporter of 'PT' as practiced by you and the two others here, but that does NOT mean, I feel the therapy won't or can't work if acceptable to the patient. I also believe Javon and his OVERALL work was and is instrumental in much of the psychiatric progress over the years, especially for prenatal care and the raising of children. I don't know about "THE MOST IMPORTANT MEDICAL ACHIEVEMENT OF ALL TIME", especially having had Polio, myself in the 40's and knowing today so many people that would be in wheel chairs or dead, had it not been for medical achievements.

    I had read some of Javon's work years ago, and recalled the name, but frankly I did have to refresh myself on his work. It wouldn't be practical, for most people, to read 'Scream' today, the basis behind your treatments, but after a session or two with that acceptance, it might be.

    Note; Based on that, I gave a list of current study, based in part on this book, including the ideas that you should read yourself.

    http://primal-page.com/reflect.htm#na

    I am at a point in my life when I want to do something with what time I have left to benefit mankind.
    Well, on this 'Thanksgiving Eve' it's time to reflect on the past and all the things we have had handed down to us. With this in mind, your service to our Country, however trivial you may think it was, is and was the best contribution any person could have made to "mankind", IMO your not going to top that. At a smaller level, what you can do for your family and frankly yourself, for them, is of importance....
     

  29. #129 Re: To my friend, Jackson33 
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    [quote="rideforever"]
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    ..
    Yes, I think Primal Therapy is very good for you. I will be doing more, there is another weekend in London at the OpenCentre in early December so I think I shall go to that.

    As for the theory, well theory is fine but I am not going to let a theory get its hands on me if it does feel right ... and it does, so that's fine.

    It seems to me that all Primal is is a setting were you are encouraged to do exactly whatever you want, scream, sing, pull out your tadger and wave it around ... anything. It's a pretty amazing feeling, and leaves an impact. Going back into the real world afterwards is quite weird because you see how hopelessly repressed everyone is.

    As for it being a cure for mankind - I wish ! Sure, if you could get everyone to do it.

    It really does feel good and natural, and back to who I am - I do recommend it, but not because of the theory just because it feels good.[/quote


    REPLY: RIDEFOREVER, It is great hearing from you. Thank you for taking part in this discussion. I find your input quite interesting. A new perspective so to speak. These Primal Weekends sound like quite an affair. I wish they had such affairs where I live. I would be there fore sure. I have never been to one, so can only imagine what they might be like. I wish to ask you if there is a spirit of sexual liberation at these events. Is there ?
    I always felt the spirit of freedom, especially sexual freedom was one of primal therapy`s big selling points so to speak. And true freedom in general is a wonderful thing to be around in this repressed screwed up world.
    Enjoy those Primal Weekends in the London area. I have only what you tell me and the rest of the forum to go by as to what they are like, what all goes on there.
    I feel it IS VERY IMPORTANT for me to say that there is much more to primal therapy than being around free thinking people. There are amongst us those, that are very mentally ill and need some real help if they are to have any hope for a life worth living. And all the problems mentally ill people cause others is surely an important issue. From what you have told us about these PRIMAL WEEKENDS I am not very clear as to if any actual PRIMAL THERAPY is going on at these events. Please don`t get me wrong about that statement. They sound like wonderful events I would gladly attend for the shear joy to be experienced. I think most of us could use a lot more of that in our lives.
    I see that sort of freedom as one of the many benefits mankind stands to gain should Primal Therapy ever become readily available for those who desire to have it. And of course there is what is currently available and events such as rideforever has brought up that are out there now. If anyone out there wishes to get involved in the PRIMAL MOVEMENT, there is what there is out there right now. Life is all too short, if you want to get in on Primal it is up to you to find your own way to do so.I`ll end on that note for now. Stay in touch with the forum and let us know of your experiences at these PRIMAL WEEKENDS. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  30. #130  
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    Here's a link to the Primal location in London, the OpenCentre : http://www.opencentre.com/ocjbrm.html.

    I don't think the description is very useful, and I went because a good friend told me about it.

    Many there have suffered from significant trauma and abuse and addiction, and the format is per day :

    start
    safety briefing
    1 hr round robin
    4 hr open session
    1 hr round robin
    finish

    ... in the open session a large room with props is laid out, mattresses cover the floor and the walls .. there are bats, clubs, paints, dolls, cuddly toys, many art materials, music instruments ... and do what you want

    ... I started slowly waiting for inspiration and then just went with it ... screaming 'fuck' at the wall at the top of my voice for 10 minutes, followed by primal growling 'argggg' ... then a bit of a chat with someone, ... then some music etc... where else do you get to do just exactly what you like.

    ... the facilitators come round for a chat and if you would like them to act out a role from your childhood then they can construct it for you ...

    Crikey, it was great.
     

  31. #131 This is GREAT ! ! 
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Here's a link to the Primal location in London, the OpenCentre : http://www.opencentre.com/ocjbrm.html.

    I don't think the description is very useful, and I went because a good friend told me about it.

    Many there have suffered from significant trauma and abuse and addiction, and the format is per day :

    start
    safety briefing
    1 hr round robin
    4 hr open session
    1 hr round robin
    finish

    ... in the open session a large room with props is laid out, mattresses cover the floor and the walls .. there are bats, clubs, paints, dolls, cuddly toys, many art materials, music instruments ... and do what you want

    ... I started slowly waiting for inspiration and then just went with it ... screaming 'fuck' at the wall at the top of my voice for 10 minutes, followed by primal growling 'argggg' ... then a bit of a chat with someone, ... then some music etc... where else do you get to do just exactly what you like.

    ... the facilitators come round for a chat and if you would like them to act out a role from your childhood then they can construct it for you ...

    Crikey, it was great.


    REPLY: Thank you rideforever for getting back to the forum with some detailed information about what a LONDON STYLE PRIMAL WEEKEND is all about. It reminds me very much of what was called a PRIMAL GROUP SESSION was like at the Primal Institute [ NOT Dr. Janov`s Primal Institute ] I attended. I know that for me the first feelings I got into were primarily anger feelings. I was so very pissed off at what my life had become for me, how extremely angry I really was. All the crap I had taken from superiors in the Marine Corps the first year and a half or so. After that I quit taking any shit from any one. I had been busted down to a private E-1 so they could`nt bust any lower. I was in Viet Nam for my second tour assigned to a regiment that was on almost constant operations against the NVA in the areas we called the A SHAW VALLEY right across the border from North Viet Nam where we met up with fresh well armed NVAs in large units, reinforced regiments . So they could not threaten me with more dangerous duty. And the fined me, took away my pay for kicking the crap out of some smartass Cpl.. And they needed us low ranking troops to fight thier battles so they were not about to imprison me or anything like that. There were many such as me in the regiment I served with. Privates on their second tour of duty, pissed off experienced killers who got the job done when called upon to do it. Fight those enemy troops and not hold back for fear of losing their lives or anything else. We just did not give a shit about anything anymore. Not some boot shining ass kissers. Ass kicking killer Marines. We hated each other also. I had maybe 4 freinds. One really good friend and another pretty good one.
    Anyway, anger was the one feeling I was immediately in touch with when I first started my therapy. I would curse God Almighty himself relentlessly, and every NCO or Officer who had ever given me any shit. You start where you start in therapy. It usually is with the more recent abuse you have internalized. As time goes by you gain access to those earlier events.
    Janov has said in at least one of his books it is akin to running a movie in reverse. Those feelings that were the last to be stuffed away inside are on top and the first to be accessed and as you proceed with therapy you unwind those feelings in their chronological order. I, myself have not ALWAYS experienced my primals in this way. SOMETIMES a more recent event in this unreeling of events during primaling can take me back to a much earlier event that was in some way connected to some later event. I will say that for me that this is not at all unusual. Primal therapy is somewhat different for everyone. How could it be otherwise ?
    So, I am very encouraged to see people from around different parts of the world taking the groundwork Dr.Janov laid down for us all, and building their own organizations and such to find ways within and upon this essential foundation Dr. Arthur Janov created for us to work with and from.
    To me, Dr.Syntax, he will always be THE GREAT MAN for this crucially important work he has done. No one else but him put the all the aspects of what causes mental illness and PUT IT TOGETHER with the means to CURE IT. Well, that is the way I feel about it anyway. As of now, I have never met Dr. Janov or spoken with him. I recieve absolutely nothing whatsoever for my promotion of his work, I never have and do not want anything.
    I have been accused of spamming and trolling in the past. NO,that is not what I am doing. I see in Janov`s work, THE MOST IMPORTANT DISCOVERIES OF ALL TIME, as to the bettterment of mankind. His discovery and developement of PRIMAL THERAPY is far more important than even Charles Darwin`s as to the betterment of mankind. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  32. #132 Re: This is GREAT ! ! 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    I have been accused of spamming and trolling in the past. NO,that is not what I am doing.
    You may not realize it, Dr.Syntax... you may not be doing it intentionally... but that is PRECISELY what you've been doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    I see in Janov`s work, THE MOST IMPORTANT DISCOVERIES OF ALL TIME, as to the bettterment of mankind. His discovery and developement of PRIMAL THERAPY is far more important than even Charles Darwin`s as to the betterment of mankind.
    Oh dear.
     

  33. #133 My dear freind, Thank you for keeping this important thread 
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    dr.syntax; You probably have no idea how your responses today are different than others in the recent past. Articulate, well presented and to the point.
    I am pleased to know you are not 'DrCWho', but keep in mind, I held no distaste/hatred toward him either.

    No, I am not a strong supporter of 'PT' as practiced by you and the two others here, but that does NOT mean, I feel the therapy won't or can't work if acceptable to the patient. I also believe Javon and his OVERALL work was and is instrumental in much of the psychiatric progress over the years, especially for prenatal care and the raising of children. I don't know about "THE MOST IMPORTANT MEDICAL ACHIEVEMENT OF ALL TIME", especially having had Polio, myself in the 40's and knowing today so many people that would be in wheel chairs or dead, had it not been for medical achievements.

    I had read some of Javon's work years ago, and recalled the name, but frankly I did have to refresh myself on his work. It wouldn't be practical, for most people, to read 'Scream' today, the basis behind your treatments, but after a session or two with that acceptance, it might be.

    Note; Based on that, I gave a list of current study, based in part on this book, including the ideas that you should read yourself.

    http://primal-page.com/reflect.htm#na

    I am at a point in my life when I want to do something with what time I have left to benefit mankind.
    Well, on this 'Thanksgiving Eve' it's time to reflect on the past and all the things we have had handed down to us. With this in mind, your service to our Country, however trivial you may think it was, is and was the best contribution any person could have made to "mankind", IMO your not going to top that. At a smaller level, what you can do for your family and frankly yourself, for them, is of importance....


    REPLY: My dear friend Jackson33, I wish to begin my response by thanking you for keeping this important discussion alive here in this forum. Had it not been for you, this important discussion would not be taking place. I desperately needed someone to step in and stick up for me, and you did that for me, a total stranger at that time. Thank you sir for doing so.
    My admiration and appreciation of the man you are has grown as I read your postings and learn about the man you are. For all other forum readers out there: Jackson33 has never endorsed PRIMAL THERAPY per se . He has acted as a moderator and allowed for the discussion to begin and at times continue. Were it not for him this discussion would have died before it had a chance to begin, as it had in other forums.
    With that said, good night my friend, ...Dr.Syntax
     

  34. #134 Re: This is GREAT ! ! 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    I have been accused of spamming and trolling in the past. NO,that is not what I am doing.
    You may not realize it, Dr.Syntax... you may not be doing it intentionally... but that is PRECISELY what you've been doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    I see in Janov`s work, THE MOST IMPORTANT DISCOVERIES OF ALL TIME, as to the bettterment of mankind. His discovery and developement of PRIMAL THERAPY is far more important than even Charles Darwin`s as to the betterment of mankind.
    Oh dear.
    REPLY: You promote scientific ideas and concepts you believe to be true such as evolution at times in opposition to people who have religious beliefs. Are you trolling for Darwin ? If you are not, what is the difference between what you do in the forums and what I am doing ? I have asked you at least three times now: Have you ever read any one of Dr.Janov`s books ? You have never answered that one simple question. Yet you present yourself as an authority on primal therapy. How can you be an authority on a subject you have not bothered to read one book of by the creator of PRIMAL THERAPY. In that sense YOU ARE EXACTLY LIKE A DARWIN [ theory of evolution ] DETRACTOR. You know nothing about the subject being discussed, NOTHING. You only read what his detractors have to say and that is it. If that is valid science then so is all this CREATIONISM nonsense. ...Dr.Syntax ...POST SCRIPT: Here is a Darwin, Theory of Evolution DEBUNKER for you at : [ http://www.creationlectures.org/moreonthelectures.htm ]. This is exactly the same sort of PROOF you offer up in opposition to PRIMAL THEORY, PRIMAL THERAPY. Believe me when I tell you I could come up with a very,very, long list of such DEBUNKERS with doctoral degrees of many sorts. You are not a doctor of anything, nor am I. Do you believe Dr.Stew Turner has DEBUNKED Charles Darwin and the THEORY OF EVOLUTION ? Is there a specific number of debunkers that reaches the threshold of SCIENTIFIC PROOF. You apparently believe there is when it is PRIMAL THEORY that is being discussed. And on and on and on. ...DS
     

  35. #135 Re: My dear freind, Thank you for keeping this important thr 
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Were it not for [Jackson33] this discussion would have died before it had a chance to begin, as it had in other forums.
    Gee... Thanks, Jackson. It turns out we have you to blame.
     

  36. #136 Re: This is GREAT ! ! 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: You promote scientific ideas and concepts you believe to be true such as evolution at times in opposition to people who have religious beliefs. Are you trolling for Darwin ? If you are not, what is the difference between what you do in the forums and what I am doing ?
    I support my claims using evidence and fact. I use consistent logic which is rooted in verifiable and clear premises, all while recognizing that opinions mean nothing.

    That's at least one difference, Dr.Syntax. Another is my ability to speak intelligently to many different topics, and my recognition that posting over and over and over and over again about one specific topic is annoying and tiresome... especially when that topic has rather questionable merit.


    Btw... I love your new ploy of comparing Janov to Darwin. That's got to be like 30 point on the Baez crackpot index.
     

  37. #137 Re: My dear freind, Thank you for keeping this important thr 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    Were it not for [Jackson33] this discussion would have died before it had a chance to begin, as it had in other forums.
    Gee... Thanks, Jackson. It turns out we have you to blame.

    REPLY: Do you even stop to consider the implications of what you just stated ? Just who is this WE you refer to ? Do you take it as a given that all the members of this forum are in lock step with your opinions ? They are not in case you have not noticed. I don`t know what to make of you iNow. There are times you seem to me to be a sincere man who enjoys a scientific debate and is capable of at least listening to others. I am starting to wonder if that is only if they are in TOTAL AGREEMENT with you.
    We have an unusual relationship going on here in cyberspace. Just having said that I realized that, at least for myself, some of my most meaningful relationships are in fact, in cyberspace. Anyway: Do you imagine that you are the center of other people`s world in any way ? When you make the sort of statement you just did, I get the impression that you do. And from that other forum ,you in fact did have a loyal following. Evidently that is not the case in this forum. ...DS
     

  38. #138  
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    Grow a sense of humor, syntax.
     

  39. #139  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Grow a sense of humor, syntax.


    REPLY: I used to have what I imagined as a pretty good sense of humor. Though, I must admit there were few that seemed to feel that way. I would fancy that I had just let loose a real rip roarer and would be doubled up with laughter. I would notice no one else laughing and being me would say it all over again and really start laughing at the hilarity of my little joke. Again little or no response. Well, as you can imagine, I got a big laugh out of it and being who I am it made me happier in spite of the non-reaction of others. I never let other people`s opinion of me interfere with me having a good time.
    But you telling me that this was all some sort of a joke and my lack of a sense of humor did not allow for me to get the joke does not ring true with me. I guess if I accept that I am the butt of the joke it may seem funny to some. I think I sort of get it. It does not make me laugh. ...DS
     

  40. #140  
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    Congratulations dr.syntax on learning to use the quote function.


    So, inow, read any books by Dr. Janov?


    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    ... I started slowly waiting for inspiration and then just went with it ... screaming 'fuck' at the wall at the top of my voice for 10 minutes, followed by primal growling 'argggg' ... then a bit of a chat with someone, ... then some music etc... where else do you get to do just exactly what you like.
    Where else, are you serious? At home perhaps? Go hiking, camping, Jack Kerouac sketched it pretty well. The Primal Weekend getaways sound a lot like raves or some festivals I've known. Complete with chicks.

    Well, maybe some people need prompting to act on id.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  41. #141 You are so satisfied with your life, why waste your time ... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Congratulations dr.syntax on learning to use the quote function.


    So, inow, read any books by Dr. Janov?


    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    ... I started slowly waiting for inspiration and then just went with it ... screaming 'fuck' at the wall at the top of my voice for 10 minutes, followed by primal growling 'argggg' ... then a bit of a chat with someone, ... then some music etc... where else do you get to do just exactly what you like.
    Where else, are you serious? At home perhaps? Go hiking, camping, Jack Kerouac sketched it pretty well. The Primal Weekend getaways sound a lot like raves or some festivals I've known. Complete with chicks.

    Well, maybe some people need prompting to act on id.

    REPLY:If you are so satisfied with your life, why waste your time asking about Primal Therapy ? Do not waste my time asking me about primal therapy if you think it is all a big joke and you are some how above it all. I wasted one hour of my time responding to you last night. I had you figured for a little smart alec but figured do my best to give an intelligent reply, who knows, it might do some good. And now you see fit to ridicule me and rideforever. The one valid capper was to inquire as to whether iNow had read a book by Janov. I guess you are in a smartypants mood tonight. Myself and rideforever do not deserve your tripe and I would bet a good bit my sex life and his would make yours seem a bit pathetic. Don`t get wise with me if you wish for me to show concern for you. I can tell you need some help and there are people such as Jackson33 who have tried to give you sources for help. You pissed me off kid. ...DS
     

  42. #142  
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    I suggested that some normal activities in our culture facilitate much of what Primal Therapy claims to monopolize. Is this threatening?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  43. #143  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I suggested that some normal activities in our culture facilitate much of what Primal Therapy claims to monopolize. Is this threatening?

    REPLY: It is not threatening. Nobody has threatened anyone here. You got smartypants with me and rideforever. Rideforever has never said one word to you. I spent an hour of my time trying my best to give a description of what PRIMAL THERAPY is all about and you come back with this smiley face saying you are glad I finally learned how to use the quote function. I know how to use the quote function, what I do not know how to do is partial quotes. You press the quote button and the entire posting is QUOTED. So, how do other people do partial quotes ? They quote part of a posting or parts of it. How do you do that ? Don`t make fun of me. I am not a stupid person. It has never been explained to me so I do not know how to do it. Still willing to be your friend, ...Dr.Syntax
     

  44. #144 Re: This is GREAT ! ! 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: You promote scientific ideas and concepts you believe to be true such as evolution at times in opposition to people who have religious beliefs. Are you trolling for Darwin ? If you are not, what is the difference between what you do in the forums and what I am doing ?
    I support my claims using evidence and fact. I use consistent logic which is rooted in verifiable and clear premises, all while recognizing that opinions mean nothing.

    That's at least one difference, Dr.Syntax. Another is my ability to speak intelligently to many different topics, and my recognition that posting over and over and over and over again about one specific topic is annoying and tiresome... especially when that topic has rather questionable merit.


    Btw... I love your new ploy of comparing Janov to Darwin. That's got to be like 30 point on the Baez crackpot index.
    REPLY: This thread is about one topic only. Primal Therapy. Your knowledge of other things is of NO relevance here. NONE. Have you read one book written by Arthur Janov or not ? If you have not I say you are totally unqualified to present yourself as anyone with any knowledge of the subject. You have already stated you have never attended any sort of Primal Therapy gathering. So, if you have not read any book by Janov or attended a Primal event how can you know with first hand knowledge, anything about PRIMAL THERAPY.
    I think I know why you find PRIMAL so offensive to you. It is anethma to your Karate learnings and teachings.
    Is that not the real reason you are so apposed to Primal Therapy ?
    And what is with this "I went to University for 3 years "crap. So you hung around a University a took a few classes over a 3 year time period. WHOOPISHIT. You did not get a degree and you never stated you took any psychology courses. Did you get a degree in anything ? Did you take any psychology courses ? Did you read even one of Dr.Janov`s books ? Answer all 3 of those questions or admit you do not know shit from shinola when it comes to psychology and PRIMAL THERAPY. Please tell me iNow : If I told you " I went to University for 3 years" with no mention of what courses I took and such, and presented that to you as some kind of sort of credentials what you would say to me as to what you thought of such a pathetic academic claim as to expertise. I was amazed when I read it. I thought no one could be so silly as to expect anyone to take that to be any sort of academic achievement. All it says to me is that you FAILED as an academic. What other interpretation is there. I took a few courses at University. I surely do not brag about it. I have no degree and you do not also. What I do have is over 37 years experience as a patient and an unpaid therapist in PRIMAL THERAPY. I have read at least seven of Dr. Janov`s books. Yes, I do know what I am talking about. ...Dr.Syntax
     

  45. #145  
    Time Lord
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    If I paste the contents of this code box...
    Code:
    Sample quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Sample quote with name
    this "nested" quote
    referenced by this quote
    My comment between quotes.
    Sample quote
    My additional comment.
    ...you see this:

    Sample quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Sample quote with name
    this "nested" quote
    referenced by this quote
    My comment between quotes.

    Sample quote
    My additional comment.


    ***

    I only made fun of your use of therapy group to pick up chicks. Some people would find that inappropriate. I find it an hilarious snapshot of your generation.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
     

  46. #146  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackson33
    dr.syntax; You probably have no idea how your responses today are different than others in the recent past. Articulate, well presented and to the point.
    I am pleased to know you are not 'DrCWho', but keep in mind, I held no distaste/hatred toward him either.

    No, I am not a strong supporter of 'PT' as practiced by you and the two others here, but that does NOT mean, I feel the therapy won't or can't work if acceptable to the patient. I also believe Javon and his OVERALL work was and is instrumental in much of the psychiatric progress over the years, especially for prenatal care and the raising of children. I don't know about "THE MOST IMPORTANT MEDICAL ACHIEVEMENT OF ALL TIME", especially having had Polio, myself in the 40's and knowing today so many people that would be in wheel chairs or dead, had it not been for medical achievements.

    I had read some of Javon's work years ago, and recalled the name, but frankly I did have to refresh myself on his work. It wouldn't be practical, for most people, to read 'Scream' today, the basis behind your treatments, but after a session or two with that acceptance, it might be.

    Note; Based on that, I gave a list of current study, based in part on this book, including the ideas that you should read yourself.

    http://primal-page.com/reflect.htm#na

    I am at a point in my life when I want to do something with what time I have left to benefit mankind.
    Well, on this 'Thanksgiving Eve' it's time to reflect on the past and all the things we have had handed down to us. With this in mind, your service to our Country, however trivial you may think it was, is and was the best contribution any person could have made to "mankind", IMO your not going to top that. At a smaller level, what you can do for your family and frankly yourself, for them, is of importance....

    REPLY: My dear freind, I wish you and yours a joyful Thanksgiving. You got me crying again. I thank you for your service to our Nation, as a veteran and an very good and honorable man.
    I do wish to say that the importance of an American willingness to stand up to what was a Sino-Soviet test of American`s willingess to fight, die, sacrifice was a necessary stand in the Proxy war called THE VIET NAM WAR. As I know you know, things were very different back then. The Soviets and red Chinese were determined to defeat our Nation and the Western World. Because of the NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES of both sides direct warfare between our Nations was not an option. But a series of proxy wars took it`s place. The two largest ones were the Korean War and the Viet Nam War. There were others. We had to show a willingness to fight real wars. This was all not very long after WWII when looked back on now. The Soviets had the most able land force at the end of that war.
    Sir, I am not preaching to you, but rather the rest of the forum. You served in our Armed Forces shortly after WWII, so you know exactly what I am talking about. Well happy Thanksgiving Jackson33. Make it a good one. Your Pal, Dr.Syntax
     

  47. #147  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    If I paste the contents of this code box...
    Code:
    Sample quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Sample quote with name
    this "nested" quote
    referenced by this quote
    My comment between quotes.
    Sample quote
    My additional comment.
    ...you see this:

    Sample quote
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Sample quote with name
    this "nested" quote
    referenced by this quote
    My comment between quotes.

    Sample quote
    My additional comment.


    ***

    I only made fun of your use of therapy group to pick up chicks. Some people would find that inappropriate. I find it an hilarious snapshot of your generation.

    REPLY: Hello my freind, So you liked that bit about picking gals at group sessions. I expect it is much the same today as it was back then. This might be good for laugh for you, I don`t know. So yes, I got into this habit of just coming right to the point with women I would meet. So much so that I would do so with women NOT INVOLVED IN PRIMAL THERAPY. Say some strange new woman I had just sat down with at a bar. I may or may not have bothered to buy her a drink and such. And I`d just come out and say: You know,I think you are a pretty gal, why don`t you come home with me and have some real fun. I had quite a number of drinks thrown in my face and such, BUT it worked out just fine with about one out of four women I used this unsubtle tactic with. I kept count. My own scientific investigation , statistical research and such. It worked with one in four times. I`d get a big laugh when they tossed their drink in my face so either way I was having a hoot. Anyway, we are pals again. Take Care, Dr.Syntax
     

  48. #148 Re: This is GREAT ! ! 
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    [quote="inow"]
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    REPLY: You promote scientific ideas and concepts you believe to be true such as evolution at times in opposition to people who have religious beliefs. Are you trolling for Darwin ? If you are not, what is the difference between what you do in the forums and what I am doing ?
    I support my claims using evidence and fact. I use consistent logic which is rooted in verifiable and clear premises, all while recognizing that opinions mean nothing.

    That's at least one difference, Dr.Syntax. Another is my ability to speak intelligently to many different topics, and my recognition that posting over and over and over and over again about one specific topic is annoying and tiresome... especially when that topic has rather questionable merit.


    Btw... I love your new ploy of comparing Janov to Darwin. That's got to be like 30 point on the Baez crackpot index.[/quote


    REPLY: Here is an example of your ability to speak intelligently QUOTE inow" No,actually I trained at university for several years under people who know far about this stuff than you. Thanks,though." unquote This is offered up as your superior credentials to Jackson33 as to psychology I think. "You trained at university "? Did you take any course in psychology ? Who were these people "who know far about this stuff than you." It seems you have a bit of a problem with your SYNTAX when constructing a sentence. Was this " stuff " you were "trained " in a course in psychology ?Who were these" people who know far about this stuff than you". Were they college professors teaching courses in psychology ? Do you recall any of their names or what university you " trained " at ? It seems to me your credentials are sorely lacking in the field of psychology along with the proper SYNTAX to write an intelligent sentence. Regards, ...Dr.Syntax
     

  49. #149  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.syntax
    It worked with one in four times. I`d get a big laugh when they tossed their drink in my face so either way I was having a hoot.
    You found it amusing to be offensive to women. You don't find anything slightly wrong about that attitude? It is OK with you to get a laugh out of embarrassing a young lady?

    Keep talking. We are getting to know you more every day.
     

  50. #150  
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    It didn't take me much further than his second post on this thread to discern his attitude towards women. Which I pointed out as cultural, and not universal... some of you may remember the argument that consisted mainly of misunderstandings.

    Nonetheless my point still stands. What part of having the so called "courage to ask women to do whatever you want them to" is any more "real" than not?
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
     

  51. #151 Re: This is GREAT ! ! 
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    Dr.Syntax - I really don't even know where to start. Your flurry of "stream of consciousness" posts and attacks last night are baffling to me. I've been more successful communicating with inanimate objects than I have been with you. I again encourage you to seek real help and try to heal your mind. You are not well, and it's apparent to seemingly everybody but you. As I mentioned previously, you are perhaps the single best example of how your claim that "primal therapy is the cure for all neurosis" simply does not hold up to scrutiny. All the best.
     

  52. #152  
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    Well, this topic seems to have run its course. I'm closing the thread before it degenerates further into flames. If anyone has a concern, please feel free to PM me.
     

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