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Thread: Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose

  1. #1 Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose 
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    Here follow the proofs:
    Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

    From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
    The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo

    No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

    An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

    It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: See below website)

    Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.

    If you accept formal logic and science you will agree with this formal logical proof. Continued reading of how to relate to the Creator you will find in this website: [advert removed]

    Anders Branderud


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  3. #2  
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    so you assume that the universe is perfect and and perfectly ordered? Bad assumption to make, my friend.


    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

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  4. #3 Re: Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose 
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    Here follow the proofs:
    Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

    From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
    The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo

    No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator
    You're nto really answering the questions, though. What created the creator? And the creator's creator? And so on. I know you're just going to say 'he always existed', but if I said the universe always existed you would say it is impossible, so I will say the same about your 'creator'.

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it
    Why necessarily? Surely you mean "I hope he did"?

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.
    Nope; unless you're a mormon, every holy book is said to have been written by people, and not by god. Sure, they might say god told them to write it, but how reliable is their word?

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator
    I defy the orderliness: I see no order in the universe, and have never made any observations of a creator.

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history.
    There have been hundreds of them, each drastically different. I can write one, if you want. I'll even claim it's god's words.

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: See below website)
    When does the Torah date back to? About 5000 years unless I'm mistaken? The age of the Earth is around 4600 million years, and the age of modern man is at least 40,000 years or so. I would conclude the Torah has not been around since the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.
    It depends which creator you believe in. Technically, your god is outdated by the ancient Egyptian gods, and so the Torah is the antithesis of the creator.

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    If you accept formal logic and science you will agree with this formal logical proof.
    You mean, if I agree with your assumptions;

    your assumptions are:

    a) The universe is ordered
    b) If the universe is ordered, it must have been created by a sentient being
    c) If the universe was created by a sentient being, it must be your god, and not a different one.

    Since you cannot prove any of these assumptions, I refuse to accept the logic based on them. Sorry.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  5. #4 Re: Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose 
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    If you accept formal logic and science you will agree with this formal logical proof. Continued reading of how to relate to the Creator you will find in this website: [advert removed]

    Anders Branderud
    Even if I were to accept your sophmoric "proof," you haven't made the logical connection between of a god (or gods) who created the universe nearly 14 billion years ago and your particular notion of a god. The one outlined in the Torah is an absolute dick and I'm glad there's simply no good reason to believe it exists.
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  6. #5 Answers to counter-arguments 
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    Thanks for your replies!!
    I want to start with concluding the proof in a more formal way:

    Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
    Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
    Ergo: There is no universe.
    Fact: There is a universe.
    Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
    (Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

    Arcane_mathematican wrote: “so you assume that the universe is perfect and and perfectly ordered? Bad assumption to make, my friend.”

    My reply: The term "orderly" is being used in two, contradictory, senses; the cause of the confusion. The human-perceived "state" of a subsystem (often relatively infinitesimal) of the universe seems to tend toward "disorder." (Though that is arguably untrue since it, e.g., a decomposing material or carcass, usually depends on a small fragment of the universe, which, in its totality, always obeys "orderly" laws of physics and mathematics. Decomposing wood or animal carcass turns to soil and is recycled in an orderly—i.e., inerrantly conforming to orderly laws—system. Thus, increasing entropy is an integral part of an orderly (always obeying orderly laws) universe; not a contradiction of it.)

    There is no known exception to the laws of physics. (If there were, our understanding of the laws of physics would be refined to incorporate the phenomenon.)

    Drowsy turtle wrote: “You're nto really answering the questions, though. What created the creator? And the creator's creator? And so on. I know you're just going to say 'he always existed', but if I said the universe always existed you would say it is impossible, so I will say the same about your 'creator'. ”

    My reply: A non-dimensional Creator independent of time-space doesn’t need a creator or a cause. The scientific principle of causality dictates that every physical occurrence has a cause.
    The scientific principle of causality rules in timespace. All scientific observations confirm this. There is no scientific principle that requires that a non-dimensional Creator independent of timespace has a cause. The person stating that a non-dimensional Creator external to timespace requires a cause, has the burden of proof to prove that assumption. The Creator is. I have proved this.

    Have a nice weekend!
    Anders Branderud
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  7. #6 Re: Answers to counter-arguments 
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    Thanks for your replies!!
    I want to start with concluding the proof in a more formal way:

    Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
    Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator / Singularity).
    Ergo: There is no universe.
    Fact: There is a universe.
    Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
    (Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)
    Assuming the universe has a beginning, and assuming nothing lacks a cause.

    Reasoning things out is not evidence anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    Arcane_mathematican wrote: “so you assume that the universe is perfect and and perfectly ordered? Bad assumption to make, my friend.”

    My reply: The term "orderly" is being used in two, contradictory, senses; the cause of the confusion. The human-perceived "state" of a subsystem (often relatively infinitesimal) of the universe seems to tend toward "disorder." (Though that is arguably untrue since it, e.g., a decomposing material or carcass, usually depends on a small fragment of the universe, which, in its totality, always obeys "orderly" laws of physics and mathematics. Decomposing wood or animal carcass turns to soil and is recycled in an orderly—i.e., inerrantly conforming to orderly laws—system. Thus, increasing entropy is an integral part of an orderly (always obeying orderly laws) universe; not a contradiction of it.)
    Define order?

    You can't objectively quantify order. Therefore, any order you observe is simply percieved to be ordered.

    For instance, to me, things that are organised into groups of 4, or powers of 4, appear to be ordered. But if everything could be measured in powers of 4, would this prove there was a creator? No, of course it wouldn't. I'm just percieving that everything is perfectly ordered.

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    There is no known exception to the laws of physics. (If there were, our understanding of the laws of physics would be refined to incorporate the phenomenon.)
    Which laws of physics?

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    Drowsy turtle wrote: “You're nto really answering the questions, though. What created the creator? And the creator's creator? And so on. I know you're just going to say 'he always existed', but if I said the universe always existed you would say it is impossible, so I will say the same about your 'creator'. ”

    My reply: A non-dimensional Creator independent of time-space doesn’t need a creator or a cause.
    Aha. So you have an idea that is unfalsifiable, but unfortunately for you, also unverifyable.

    Non-dimensional, surely, is just another way of saying non-existant, anyway? Or were you simply using the term instead of an explanation, rather than as one?

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    The scientific principle of causality dictates that every physical occurrence has a cause.
    Which would include the creator, would it not? Or does causality only apply when it aids your explanation?

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    The scientific principle of causality rules in timespace. All scientific observations confirm this. There is no scientific principle that requires that a non-dimensional Creator independent of timespace has a cause.
    Yes there is. I think you've already mentioned it: the principle of causality. Regardless of location and size, everything must have a cause. A non-dimensional entity (whatever the hell that means) would still need a cause, although the cause may also be non-dimensional.

    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    The person stating that a non-dimensional Creator external to timespace requires a cause, has the burden of proof to prove that assumption. The Creator is. I have proved this.
    No you haven't. You've made an assumption that causality only applies within our universe, and also that the universe cannot have any other cause. You have proved nothing.

    Plus, theoretical evidence is only that: theoretical. You still need real evidence.[/quote]
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  8. #7 Re: Answers to counter-arguments 
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    The person stating that a non-dimensional Creator external to timespace requires a cause, has the burden of proof to prove that assumption. The Creator is. I have proved this.
    No, you need to prove that a creator can exist without a cause, and also that a creator can be "non-dimensional". You have not done this.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

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  9. #8  
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    If a creator can exist without a cause, why cannot the universe exist without a cause? Moreover, since a creator, being an entity, must exist somewhere, it is reasonable to consider this somewhere as the cosmos (or universe). Thus, the cosmos/universe can exist independent of a creator. Thus, a creator is unnecessary.

    If one wants to posit that a creator can exist without a cause, then that same stipulation can just as easily be applied to a universe.

    Since we have evidence for a universe and not a "creator", we can thus conclude that there simply is no good reason to assume the necessity of a creator and it becomes clear that the notion of a "creator" is merely an anthropomorphic application of agency based on a human construct that exists only as a meme in human belief.
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  10. #9 Re: Answers to counter-arguments 
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    Thanks for your replies!!
    I want to start with concluding the proof in a more formal way:

    Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
    evolution.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

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  11. #10 Re: Answers to counter-arguments 
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
    are you referring to a material cause, a formal cause, an efficient cause of a final cause ?
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  12. #11 Re: Answers to counter-arguments 
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    Thanks for your replies!!
    I want to start with concluding the proof in a more formal way:

    Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
    evolution.
    Mutation causes evolution.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

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  13. #12 Re: Answers to counter-arguments 
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Quote Originally Posted by andersbranderud
    Thanks for your replies!!
    I want to start with concluding the proof in a more formal way:

    Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
    evolution.
    Obviously, the creator causes evolution.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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