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Thread: Are there jobs in Science studying the paranormal?

  1. #1 Are there jobs in Science studying the paranormal? 
    Mel
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    Hi everyone

    Im a newbie on the forum and would just like to find out if anyone is aware of any jobs in Science relating to the study of paranormal activity and im also very keen on studying more on how Psychokinesis works.

    I would be very interested in this line of work and would like to find out how one goes into such a field.

    Is there a huge requirement for people in this sector of science or not?

    Your views, comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

    Mel


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    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    No offence, but why would you think the study of the paranormal is a science? It is a pseudoscience.


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    You could ask Richard Dawkins. He used his chair in Oxford for the promotion of science to promote his atheism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    You could ask Richard Dawkins. He used his chair in Oxford for the promotion of science to promote his atheism.
    What does that have to do with anything?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    You could ask Richard Dawkins. He used his chair in Oxford for the promotion of science to promote his atheism.
    Citation?
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  7. #6 Re: Are there jobs in Science studying the paranormal? 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Hi everyone

    Im a newbie on the forum and would just like to find out if anyone is aware of any jobs in Science relating to the study of paranormal activity and im also very keen on studying more on how Psychokinesis works.

    I would be very interested in this line of work and would like to find out how one goes into such a field.

    Is there a huge requirement for people in this sector of science or not?

    Your views, comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

    Mel
    If you can first prove that Psychokinesis is an actual phenomenon, then yes. If you can't, then no. And to date there has been no evidenciary support of anything like psychokinesis being an actual phenomenon, so it probably isn't one. Which would mean you cannot get a scientific job studying it.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    I'm interested in these things, and there are various sciences that you can use to study them, but I would recommend not getting into science to prove them true. This will A: set you up for failure within the community, B: set you up for disappointment if you discover that your career is a joke and C: cloud your senses with prejudice, potentially corrupting the scientific value of any research, for the sake of proving one thing. Many discoveries are found on accident. Throwing away data that doesn't support your theory is a horrible deed: you'd be missing out on a grand experience, as well as hindering the progress of science as a whole.

    With that said, scientific careers focusing on studying paranormal are few. Whether or not the careers are lucrative, and whether or not the community is credibility, is questionable.

    You will inevitably be working alongside many highly prejudiced individuals who care more about proving their own theories than furthering science.

    Until given further information I'm forced to assume you'll fit right in.

    If you are honest about seeking the SCIENCE of it all, whether or not there is any. Consider looking into neural-physics or neurology.

    I'm considering getting into neurology, and one thing I would like to study is people who claim to have psychic powers, or have had religious experiences, and compare them to liars, con artists, actors, etc.

    I don't care as much about proving things true or false, but furthering our understanding of human potential. The scientist who only gets into science to prove their theory true is no scientist at all.
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  9. #8 Re: Are there jobs in Science studying the paranormal? 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel
    Hi everyone

    Im a newbie on the forum and would just like to find out if anyone is aware of any jobs in Science relating to the study of paranormal activity and im also very keen on studying more on how Psychokinesis works.

    I would be very interested in this line of work and would like to find out how one goes into such a field.

    Is there a huge requirement for people in this sector of science or not?

    Your views, comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

    Mel
    There is a huge amount of money in the development of paranormal treatments of supranormal cancer.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    No offence, but why would you think the study of the paranormal is a science? It is a pseudoscience.
    I would place telepathy as one example of the paranormal. I do not believe it is a real phenomenon.
    However I am perfectly sure it would be possible to hold a scientific study into telepathy to test the claims of its adherents and to see if there is any evidence it exists.
    On the other hand, and looking again at the quote from your post, I take your point. I think you mean that the subject of the paranormal is not a valid scientific discipline and is more accurately described by the term "pseudoscience".
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    Grant agencies are just dying to fund a study into telepathy.

    I sincerely suggest pursuing a career in paranormal science and landing a professorship at Harvard or another of those establishments in this field. There are just not enough people to fill the positions.
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    You could ask Richard Dawkins. He used his chair in Oxford for the promotion of science to promote his atheism.
    good - i wouldn't want him to promote my atheism
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    You could ask Richard Dawkins. He used his chair in Oxford for the promotion of science to promote his atheism.
    good - i wouldn't want him to promote my atheism
    Mine either...
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR

    good - i wouldn't want him (Dawkins) to promote my atheism
    Why not?
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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    because i don't want anyone but me to decide what my version of atheism stands for, and i would not want anyone to presume to speak for me in this matter

    to me atheism is a personal and not a political decision
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR

    good - i wouldn't want him (Dawkins) to promote my atheism
    Why not?
    He is an ass.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    my version of atheism...

    to me atheism is a personal and not a political decision
    So, your version of atheism is not in agreement with atheism? How is that possible? You make it sound like a religion.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    He is an ass.
    Ok, why is he an ass?
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    He is an ass.
    Ok, why is he an ass?
    As you know, atheism simply means not believing in any God. His campain, though, is attaching all kinds of extra philosophies to it that I don't necessarily agree with. He might be a great evolutionary scientist and I agree with most (if not all) of his scientific findings and theories, but I don't like him much as a person and, as marnixR said, I don't want anyone else taking the front as the voice of atheism in my name. His way of going about things make more enemies than friends and you won't have much luck getting your point across to a person you have made into an enemy.

    I think I should have said he is a bit of an asshole, rather than an ass, which implies he is stupid, which he is not.
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    and likewise, he, just like Hitchens and most other outspoken atheists, make claims about the religious that I don't agree with, and as such I feel I shouldn't be lumped with them. The 'pr' atheists that are always writing books or making appearances tend to go a few steps beyond where I am, and I feel they are a bit pompous, arrogant, and all around assish.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    His campain, though, is attaching all kinds of extra philosophies to it that I don't necessarily agree with.
    I don't recall such philosophies. He simply argues theists claims, what's wrong with that?

    I don't like him much as a person
    Have you met him and talked with him or went to his seminars?

    I don't want anyone else taking the front as the voice of atheism in my name.
    Neither of you have a voice for taking the front, he does.

    His way of going about things make more enemies than friends and you won't have much luck getting your point across to a person you have made into an enemy.
    Enemies? Come now, aren't you exaggerating things?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    and likewise, he, just like Hitchens and most other outspoken atheists, make claims about the religious that I don't agree with, and as such I feel I shouldn't be lumped with them. The 'pr' atheists that are always writing books or making appearances tend to go a few steps beyond where I am, and I feel they are a bit pompous, arrogant, and all around assish.
    What I've been hearing so far are emotional outbursts, not arguments.
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  23. #22  
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    ""I don't want anyone else taking the front as the voice of atheism in my name."


    Neither of you have a voice for taking the front, he does. ""

    And so Q answers his own question. LOL
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    Have you met him and talked with him or went to his seminars?
    I have seen some videos of him and from them I would say he is a bit of an asshole. You are right though, he might not be an asshole, but he most certainly is seen that way by most theists.

    Neither of you have a voice for taking the front, he does.
    Fine and nothing I can do can stop him from doing what he is doing. All I can do is appeal to theists not to judge all atheists by his example.

    Enemies? Come now, aren't you exaggerating things?
    I don't think so. Going after a theists beliefs in an insensitive and condescending way can very easily make you an enemy to everything he holds deer. I don't know how much you have been involved with theism directly, but when you attack a man's faith, you attack a large part of what he uses to define himself. You attack all things he holds dear, because they attach a religious significance to almost every aspect of their lives. Simply showing up and heartlessly calling their beliefs stupid and primitive will not do anyone any favours. Religious people, on average, are not used to analysing the world around them in the way we and he does, nor are they used to questioning themselves past a certain level. Doing it with a chainsaw approach will, mostly irrationally but still, incite anger and opposition in them 99.9% of the time. You will be their enemy. The attack does not even have to be very severe. This forum reaches a small audience, but he reaches a much larger one. It is no wonder that he is seen as the front line character and often even as a leader of the atheists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    I don't want anyone else taking the front as the voice of atheism in my name.
    Neither of you have a voice for taking the front, he does.
    No, he doesn't. I never gave him quarter to speak on my behalf.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    and likewise, he, just like Hitchens and most other outspoken atheists, make claims about the religious that I don't agree with, and as such I feel I shouldn't be lumped with them. The 'pr' atheists that are always writing books or making appearances tend to go a few steps beyond where I am, and I feel they are a bit pompous, arrogant, and all around assish.
    What I've been hearing so far are emotional outbursts, not arguments.
    How do you argue an emotion Q?
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    I think a more relevant question is "how do you do anything without emotion?" your definition of emotion is unrealistically small if you have an answer to this.


    well actually, my definition of "do" is unrealistically small in this question
    let me rephrase it

    "How do you consciously do anything without emotion?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    So, your version of atheism is not in agreement with atheism? How is that possible? You make it sound like a religion.
    not all animals without wings are the same
    not all people without a belief in god are the same

    people like Dawkins sour my discussions with theists because i'm automatically lumped with his often disdainful attitude towards other people
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    Tell them you send Dawkins an aborted fetus. They will instantly like you.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    I have seen some videos of him and from them I would say he is a bit of an asshole. You are right though, he might not be an asshole, but he most certainly is seen that way by most theists.
    I would expect that from theists. Everyone who rains on their god delusions is an asshole.

    Fine and nothing I can do can stop him from doing what he is doing. All I can do is appeal to theists not to judge all atheists by his example.
    What example? No one has made an argument yet in that regard.

    I don't think so. Going after a theists beliefs in an insensitive and condescending way can very easily make you an enemy to everything he holds deer. I don't know how much you have been involved with theism directly, but when you attack a man's faith, you attack a large part of what he uses to define himself. You attack all things he holds dear, because they attach a religious significance to almost every aspect of their lives.
    Dawkins does to theists what every parent is forced to do a some point, and that is to tell their children Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy don't really exist. Are parents then insensitive and condescending, too?

    Simply showing up and heartlessly calling their beliefs stupid and primitive will not do anyone any favours. Religious people, on average, are not used to analysing the world around them in the way we and he does, nor are they used to questioning themselves past a certain level.
    That fact that theists choose to act ignorant and childish, and we are supposed to respect that?

    Doing it with a chainsaw approach will, mostly irrationally but still, incite anger and opposition in them 99.9% of the time. You will be their enemy. The attack does not even have to be very severe. This forum reaches a small audience, but he reaches a much larger one. It is no wonder that he is seen as the front line character and often even as a leader of the atheists.
    We've had this type of rule over our world for centuries, and no "soft" approach is clearly going to get us anywhere. The indoctrination machine will run forever unless something drastic is done. All you're doing is protecting the cults that are keeping mankind in slavery and oppression. Why would you do that and what approach would you suggest would actually work?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR

    not all animals without wings are the same
    not all people without a belief in god are the same

    people like Dawkins sour my discussions with theists because i'm automatically lumped with his often disdainful attitude towards other people
    What disdainful attitude? I've never seen that, ever.

    It takes a hell of a lot of guts to do what Dawkins is doing, and that is to tackle a problem that has plagued mankind for centuries. If you think this is going to be an easy task and it won't upset theists, then you're just as delusional as they are. Pussy-footing around this problem doesn't work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    No, he doesn't. I never gave him quarter to speak on my behalf.
    Most likely, he is not speaking on your behalf, but his own. And that fact that his analysis hits the nail on the head shouldn't bother you, it should elate you.
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    "to tackle a problem that has plagued mankind for centuries"

    I think we should first tackle poor communication skills. So far you provide no support for your views. I don't even know why I'm disagreeing with you, but I know I do.
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    I love being called a problem and a plague, it makes me feel like such a degenerate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    No, he doesn't. I never gave him quarter to speak on my behalf.
    Most likely, he is not speaking on your behalf, but his own. And that fact that his analysis hits the nail on the head shouldn't bother you, it should elate you.
    I'm not as familiar with Dawkins as I am with Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris. Both of those two make the claim to be speaking for atheists, not themselves alone. I don't agree with the condescending attitude nor the self-righteous and pompous "I'm so obviously right and you are so obviously wrong" point-of-view.
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  36. #35  
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    There are plenty of religious people claiming to speak in the name of God. In fact they all do.
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  37. #36  
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    But they do not claim to speak for other religious people. If they do it is indirectly, because they agree on what God would have them say.
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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    I'm not as familiar with Dawkins
    Might be a good idea not to comment on him, then, wouldn't you agree? If you really want to understand Dawkins, begin by watching this entire series. I own the DVD and have watched it several times. The series is also online for free. I have attended his seminars, read his books and even had the rare opportunity of a one on one conversation in a hotel lobby. Whenever I read the negative comments about Dawkins, I know for a fact those people know nothing about him or his ideas.

    http://richarddawkins.net/growingupintheuniverse

    Both of those two make the claim to be speaking for atheists, not themselves alone. I don't agree with the condescending attitude nor the self-righteous and pompous "I'm so obviously right and you are so obviously wrong" point-of-view.
    And, if those two actually ever said that, I would tend to agree with you. But, the fact is that those are your words, not theirs. Hence, you're probably not familiar with them either, and are just spouting nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I don't even know why I'm disagreeing with you, but I know I do.
    If you can't put your finger on it, perhaps it's just personal. And, that's fine too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    "Fine and nothing I can do can stop him from doing what he is doing. All I can do is appeal to theists not to judge all atheists by his example. "



    What example? No one has made an argument yet in that regard.
    The way he goes about things can become a bit abrasive, similarly to how you go about it. The problem with that is that I think it kind of shifts the target audience. It often becomes as if his campaign is aimed at people that are already atheists and agnostics. This is precisely because the way he goes about it illicit a response from theists where they feel they are being attacked and adopt a defensive attitude where it becomes an "us vs. them" battle. Like I said, I don't think this is a very effective strategy.



    Dawkins does to theists what every parent is forced to do at some point, and that is to tell their children Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy don't really exist. Are parents then insensitive and condescending, too?
    We talked about this a while back. There is a big difference, since adults change their way of looking at the world MUCH more difficultly than children do. After the first 6 - 8 years it become very much more difficult to alter what has become part of your personality. As a person becomes older the best way to get them to adopt different world views is to provide subtle prods and " food for thought". It is a very difficult thing to analyse core parts of yourself with objective honesty.

    That fact that theists choose to act ignorant and childish, and we are supposed to respect that?
    If you can't do much about it, why not? As discussed before, the vast majority of people genuinely want to be good people and if religious belief help achieve this, why not let it?

    We've had this type of rule over our world for centuries, and no "soft" approach is clearly going to get us anywhere. The indoctrination machine will run forever unless something drastic is done. All you're doing is protecting the cults that are keeping mankind in slavery and oppression. Why would you do that and what approach would you suggest would actually work?
    On the contrary, i think we have come a long way. Advances in science has provided direct evidence against many commonly held beliefs over the centuries. Do you not think we are better off now than in the dark ages? By far the most effective way to further aid the awakening of human kind from a predominantly superstitious view is an effective and widespread education system. An education system than focuses more on science and critical thinking skills than is currently the standard.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    This is precisely because the way he goes about it illicit a response from theists where they feel they are being attacked and adopt a defensive attitude where it becomes an "us vs. them" battle. Like I said, I don't think this is a very effective strategy.
    It's a perfectly acceptable strategy. Dawkins is direct, he asks hard questions. The problem is with the theists who are "personally" insulted with this approach. Their indoctrination demands they become one with the cult's doctrines, god is everywhere and makes up all things, apparently.

    Clearly, anything or anyone that demonstrates the cults doctrines for what they are will meet with severe confrontation. The mob mentality of Muslims acting out against a cartoon is hard evidence for that.

    The "us and them" attitude is created by the theists, not by Dawkins.


    We talked about this a while back. There is a big difference...
    The only difference is the fairy tale being told and the underlying indoctrination.

    If you can't do much about it, why not? As discussed before, the vast majority of people genuinely want to be good people and if religious belief help achieve this, why not let it?
    But, as mentioned many times before, that isn't the case. The cults of the world have mankind in a stranglehold every bit as much as each of us personally, whether it's having forced down our throats someones view of their god delusion and how it will better our society to the amount of taxes I have to pay while those cults operate tax free. The list goes on and on...

    If theists kept their silly beliefs behind closed doors without affecting society in any way, I'd care much less.

    Do you not think we are better off now than in the dark ages?
    That's a difficult question to answer considering that a huge percentage of the worlds population continue to embrace the myths and superstitions of those ages. How is that better?

    By far the most effective way to further aid the awakening of human kind from a predominantly superstitious view is an effective and widespread education system. An education system than focuses more on science and critical thinking skills than is currently the standard.
    Have you not noticed that isn't working? And, will never work unless the cycle of indoctrination is broken. That will take far more an effective solution than just education.

    The very first thing, as with any other dependency, is to admit there is a problem. Do you see any theists readily standing up admitting that religious indoctrination is a problem and should be examined?

    The current state of theocracy is in denial.
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    It's a perfectly acceptable strategy. Dawkins is direct, he asks hard questions. The problem is with the theists who are "personally" insulted with this approach.
    Exactly my point. If you know that theists are going to react that way, how does that make it an effective strategy? That is why I said that his campaign is almost more preaching to the choir, since we are most often the only ones that get the message.

    The only difference is the fairy tale being told and the underlying indoctrination.
    My point is that when you want to deliver a message you have to consider the audience. The message might be entirely correct. We believe that God and fairies fall in the same category, but the people that the message is being delivered to is fundamentally different. Wouldn't you agree?

    If theists kept their silly beliefs behind closed doors without affecting society in any way, I'd care much less.
    But religious people form by far the largest part of society, don't you think? Can you really expect them to keep out of each other’s lives as well?

    But, as mentioned many times before, that isn't the case. The cults of the world have mankind in a stranglehold every bit as much as each of us personally, whether it's having forced down our throats someones view of their god delusion and how it will better our society to the amount of taxes I have to pay while those cults operate tax free. The list goes on and on...

    That's a difficult question to answer considering that a huge percentage of the worlds population continue to embrace the myths and superstitions of those ages. How is that better?
    Sure and what would you say is the most common denominator between the worst affected countries? Poor education and a generally poor level of existence. The first world countries are leaps ahead from the prevalent conditions during the dark ages.

    Have you not noticed that isn't working? And, will never work unless the cycle of indoctrination is broken. That will take far more an effective solution than just education.

    The very first thing, as with any other dependency, is to admit there is a problem. Do you see any theists readily standing up admitting that religious indoctrination is a problem and should be examined?

    The current state of theocracy is in denial.
    It really is not as easy as you apparently are hoping it is. It simply does not work that way and the evidence for that is legion. How many fundamental theists do you know about that has seen the light? I still do and will forever proclaim that the best cure for superstition and scientific ignorance is proper education from a very early age. I mean, it really is obvious.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    I'm not as familiar with Dawkins
    Might be a good idea not to comment on him, then, wouldn't you agree? If you really want to understand Dawkins, begin by watching this entire series. I own the DVD and have watched it several times. The series is also online for free. I have attended his seminars, read his books and even had the rare opportunity of a one on one conversation in a hotel lobby.
    http://richarddawkins.net/growingupintheuniverse
    A real fan. (Q) also subscribes to Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes, not to mention Geert Wilders. Other men who are misunderstood for their "rational" points of view. In fact, you say Islamophobe or anti-theist and (Q) will be right there, jumping up and down, waving his hands in fan frenzy

    Do show us [again] the picture you had taken with Dawkins. I bet you even donate to his "cause" and have a Tshirt and mug with your idols mug on it. :P

    Whenever I read the negative comments about Dawkins, I know for a fact those people know nothing about him or his ideas.
    You're the only one who understands what he really means, eh?

    Its all about the interpretation

    In a recent interview with Trina Hoaks, the atheist blogger for the Examiner.com website, Dawkins described religious believers as follows: "They feel uneducated, which they are; often rather stupid, which they are; inferior, which they are; and paranoid about pointy-headed intellectuals from the East Coast looking down on them, which, with some justification, they do."

    http://www.examiner.com/x-2044-Athei...1--The-prelude
    Such pearls of wisdom, dripping from those hallowed lips.

    /sigh
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Tell them you send Dawkins an aborted fetus. They will instantly like you.
    Thats actually a good idea. Can you send one by regular post?
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I don't even know why I'm disagreeing with you, but I know I do.
    If you can't put your finger on it, perhaps it's just personal. And, that's fine too.
    I thought I made it clear, if not I apologize. I disagree with you out of default, you give me nothing definitive enough to agree or disagree with. Your points all lack support and so I am forced to conclude that they you don't know why you are defending him, you just are, in which case it is just personal, but don't expect someone to respect what someone else has to say, just because you do. It's customary to give people a reason to agree before having them decide if they do or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    I'm not as familiar with Dawkins
    Might be a good idea not to comment on him, then, wouldn't you agree? If you really want to understand Dawkins, begin by watching this entire series. I own the DVD and have watched it several times. The series is also online for free. I have attended his seminars, read his books and even had the rare opportunity of a one on one conversation in a hotel lobby. Whenever I read the negative comments about Dawkins, I know for a fact those people know nothing about him or his ideas.

    http://richarddawkins.net/growingupintheuniverse
    After watching all five of those episodes, I stand by my earlier comment, and I said I wasn't AS familiar, not that I'd never seen him. Have you ever read Hitchens work? You may want to reread God is not Great... he makes claims in the name of atheism, not himself, as does Harris. The only thing of Harris I own is Letter to a Christian Nation, and I must say, I find it SO much more down to earth and calm than Hitchens it's not funny. He still, however, makes claims for atheism, not himself.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Tell them you send Dawkins an aborted fetus. They will instantly like you.
    Thats actually a good idea. Can you send one by regular post?
    I use my fetuses for the progress of science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    If you know that theists are going to react that way, how does that make it an effective strategy? That is why I said that his campaign is almost more preaching to the choir, since we are most often the only ones that get the message.
    No other strategies have worked. The only one that works well is the direct approach, the same one we use in science. Ask the hard questions.

    My point is that when you want to deliver a message you have to consider the audience. The message might be entirely correct. We believe that God and fairies fall in the same category, but the people that the message is being delivered to is fundamentally different. Wouldn't you agree?
    That is the fault of the audience not wishing to be engaged. It has nothing to do with the message being delivered and everything to do with theists being in denial.

    But religious people form by far the largest part of society, don't you think? Can you really expect them to keep out of each otherís lives as well?
    Good question. I have no answer for that. But, it certainly isn't valid that they affect my life.

    Sure and what would you say is the most common denominator between the worst affected countries?
    Centuries of cult worship.

    I still do and will forever proclaim that the best cure for superstition and scientific ignorance is proper education from a very early age. I mean, it really is obvious.
    That will rarely happen if children are already indoctrinated into their parents cult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I disagree with you out of default
    Then, shut up and go away. Sheesh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    After watching all five of those episodes, I stand by my earlier comment
    You either didn't watch them, or you're just plain weird. What you're stating is that you're opinion of Dawkins is exactly the same whether he's lecturing on evolutionary biology or writing about gods. I don't think so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Grant agencies are just dying to fund a study into telepathy.

    I sincerely suggest pursuing a career in paranormal science and landing a professorship at Harvard or another of those establishments in this field. There are just not enough people to fill the positions.
    What about UFOs? Is anyone studying UFOs?
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    I try to, but I seem to have real trouble collecting accurate data
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    If you know that theists are going to react that way, how does that make it an effective strategy? That is why I said that his campaign is almost more preaching to the choir, since we are most often the only ones that get the message.
    No other strategies have worked. The only one that works well is the direct approach, the same one we use in science. Ask the hard questions.
    But it doesn't work well with theists. As an example: My younger brother. We grew up in the same house for goodness sake and he is by no means an idiot, but try and get him to look at something in a scientific way and it becomes like trying to explain Pythagoras to a 5 year old. Theists, in my experience, don't even understand what you are trying to say half of the time, even when they and you might think they do. We are slowly starting to see a growing emergence among the common non-scientist folk of a naturalistic, scientific and critical thinking orientated world view. This is unquestionably the case and as far as I can see a large part of it has happened within one generation. What has changed? The media, better education levels, better quality of life. Dawkins et al might be responsible for part of it, but like I said, I am of the opinion that the large majority of the people they actually reach are agnostic or already atheists.


    That is the fault of the audience not wishing to be engaged. It has nothing to do with the message being delivered and everything to do with theists being in denial.
    Yes, I agree, but when you know they are going to react that way, why continue in the same vein?

    Good question. I have no answer for that. But, it certainly isn't valid that they affect my life.
    And I can understand that. From my perspective though, where we are not going to see a massive change in the short term, I am prepared to suffer the little intrusions into my life in the knowledge that the situation is slowly improving. It's not that much of an impact on your life, is it? In the mean time I will do what I can to aid in the education of the poorest. I can't do much at the moment, but when I get a chance to do something, I will (Lotto!).

    Centuries of cult worship.
    Agreed, but this goes hand in hand with poor education, runaway poverty and corrupt governments.

    That will rarely happen if children are already indoctrinated into their parents cult.
    As far as I can tell, most theists aren't the kind that would keep their children from watching TV, go to pre-school, surf the internet or play with neighbourhood friends. An effective education system can affect the child in all of these arenas. Then an effective regular school system and more of the same can be invaluable during the child's later development into teenhood.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    But it doesn't work well with theists. Theists, in my experience, don't even understand what you are trying to say half of the time, even when they and you might think they do.
    I love the arrogance inherent in these assumptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Grant agencies are just dying to fund a study into telepathy.

    I sincerely suggest pursuing a career in paranormal science and landing a professorship at Harvard or another of those establishments in this field. There are just not enough people to fill the positions.
    What about UFOs? Is anyone studying UFOs?
    I tried, but I managed to only see IFOs.
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    "Then, shut up and go away. Sheesh."

    No thanks. You refuse to support your views and it promotes the lack of critical thought.

    Since critical thought rellies on the ability to consider evidence, by not providing evidence for what you believe you prevent anyone from thinking critically about your claims. I don't disagree with what your saying, I disagree with your lack of support. This is the second, maybe third time I've said it so I'm forced to assume that you either ignore rationality, want to make the world stupid and/or are just a drama queen looking for mindless discussions to express yourself.

    Please don't consider those personal attacks, consider them false conclusions. I provide support at least. If you don't think any of these descriptions of your attitude towards discussion are correct then you would have it easiest proving my premise wrong and showing how you do in fact provide support for your views. That is, assuming that I've overlooked the fact that you do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    But it doesn't work well with theists. Theists, in my experience, don't even understand what you are trying to say half of the time, even when they and you might think they do.
    I love the arrogance inherent in these assumptions.
    Not all theists of course. I am sure even you would agree that the average theist has trouble understanding scientific principles, no? They are often also not used to examining their beliefs or the reasons behind some of the guidelines they live by. This has certainly been by experience. This forum, apart from the obvious hopeless cases, does have a few that are willing to discuss their convictions beyond repeating the same scripted responses over and over again or avoiding the question altogether with non sequiturs and off topic comments, but this is by no means the norm in my experience. Do you disagree with this?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Theists, in my experience, don't even understand what you are trying to say half of the time, even when they and you might think they do.
    That is due primarily to having been indoctrinated, to accept the unfounded as fact, while making sure critical thinking skills do not evolve.

    What has changed? The media, better education levels, better quality of life. Dawkins et al might be responsible for part of it, but like I said, I am of the opinion that the large majority of the people they actually reach are agnostic or already atheists.
    They are taking bold steps to bring this out into the open, and that in itself is what's causing negative feedback from theists, who quite clearly don't want their house of cards to fall. We shouldn't be defending the theists who choose to remain ignorant.


    Yes, I agree, but when you know they are going to react that way, why continue in the same vein?
    Because it works. It may not be working now, but that will change as long as the the hard and direct questions keep getting asked. The worst thing we could do is defend theists.

    And I can understand that. From my perspective though, where we are not going to see a massive change in the short term, I am prepared to suffer the little intrusions into my life in the knowledge that the situation is slowly improving. It's not that much of an impact on your life, is it?
    I'm not willing to suffer any longer their intrusions. This has to stop.

    Agreed, but this goes hand in hand with poor education, runaway poverty and corrupt governments.
    And, it's going to be a very difficult problem to fix, but it is the theists who put us in this situation in the first place. Their time has come and gone, they've fucked our world up enough. The time has come to end their rule over this planet.
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    KALSTER wrote:
    Theists, in my experience, don't even understand what you are trying to say half of the time, even when they and you might think they do.

    (Q) wrote:
    That is due primarily to having been indoctrinated, to accept the unfounded as fact, while making sure critical thinking skills do not evolve.
    __________________________________________________ __________________

    Misunderstandings happen all the time between all sorts of people. There is a great deal of literature about how to communicate effectively. The book I read about it talked about primarily listening, changing your tone and rhythm to match who your talking to, asking for more information, making sure you give plenty of information when you talk, and eliminating embellishment from your language. I am currently learning how to write clearly and it's pretty simple, support your point and it leaves little room for honest misunderstanding.

    It's important to keep in mind that sometimes misunderstandings are not actual misunderstandings but a tactic to distract from the conversation and/or change the subject, IE, a rather sophisticated form of straw-man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I am currently learning how to write clearly and it's pretty simple, support your point and it leaves little room for honest misunderstanding.
    You may also wish to consider taking some remedial reading courses as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    You may also wish to consider taking some remedial reading courses as well.
    how about yourself - been on any forum etiquette lessons recently ? you might want to consider it
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER

    Not all theists of course. I am sure even you would agree that the average theist has trouble understanding scientific principles, no? They are often also not used to examining their beliefs or the reasons behind some of the guidelines they live by. This has certainly been by experience. This forum, apart from the obvious hopeless cases, does have a few that are willing to discuss their convictions beyond repeating the same scripted responses over and over again or avoiding the question altogether with non sequiturs and off topic comments, but this is by no means the norm in my experience. Do you disagree with this?
    Being a dumb theist, I have absolutely no idea what you just said. Perhaps if you used smaller words? Simpler sentence construction? Fewer idiomatic phrases? Myself, I have trouble getting atheists to even communicate what atheism is.
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    Anyway, this is about jobs in the paranormal sciences, not about egos.

    I applied this year to a position of Assistent Professor in applied parapsychology on spirits of the dead.

    I didn't make the first round because they had hired a clairvoyant for the selection procedure.
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    I consider my ego to be a paranormal experience in itself. You are free to prove otherwise.
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    Being a dumb theist, I have absolutely no idea what you just said. Perhaps if you used smaller words? Simpler sentence construction? Fewer idiomatic phrases?
    Really? You theists must be dumber than I thought.

    In parts:

    I am sure even you would agree that the average theist (i.e. the average person) has trouble understanding some scientific principles, no?

    They are often also not used to examining their beliefs or the reasons behind some of the guidelines they live by.

    This forum does have a few that are willing to discuss their convictions.

    Others often resort to repeating the same scripted responses over and over again, or avoid answering the question altogether with non sequiturs and comments that are not related to the topic at hand.

    Which ones do you have trouble with?
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  66. #65  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    how about yourself - been on any forum etiquette lessons recently ? you might want to consider it
    Why? What does an overabundance of sensitivity on your part have to do with etiquette?

    Of course, I'm open to your request if there is something in forum etiquette you refer specifically. I've looked at a number of forum etiquette lists only to discover everyone here, including yourself, has violated some item(s) on those lists.

    Deletions of posts not following forum etiquette would leave most of these forums empty of content.

    Please elaborate.
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  67. #66  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    I consider my ego to be a paranormal experience in itself. You are free to prove otherwise.
    The proof is in the fact that the terms "ego" and "paranormal" are not familiar to you.
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  68. #67  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Anyone know any good positions in paranormal science in or under the bible belt?
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

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  69. #68  
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    I applied this year to a position of Assistent Professor in applied parapsychology on spirits of the dead.

    I didn't make the first round because they had hired a clairvoyant for the selection procedure.
    Did the clairvoyant foresee this?
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  70. #69  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    i think so.

    I wonder why they bothered to start the application procedure. They must have known who they would hire beforehand.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

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  71. #70  
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Anyone know any good positions in paranormal science in or under the bible belt?
    i hear that the missionary position is quite good
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Really? You theists must be dumber than I thought.
    I believe it could be true
    In parts:

    I am sure even you would agree that the average theist (i.e. the average person) has trouble understanding some scientific principles, no?
    Whats a scientific principle?
    They are often also not used to examining their beliefs or the reasons behind some of the guidelines they live by.
    Why would anyone examine a belief?

    This forum does have a few that are willing to discuss their convictions.

    Others often resort to repeating the same scripted responses over and over again, or avoid answering the question altogether with non sequiturs and comments that are not related to the topic at hand.
    Unlike the atheists who offer refreshingly new arguments on why they are outliers on the evolutionary ladder and selected against by fitness considerations?

    Which ones do you have trouble with?
    All of them

    /sigh


    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    Anyone know any good positions in paranormal science in or under the bible belt?
    On your knees would be my best bet.
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  73. #72  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Whats a scientific principle?
    1. Destroy your competition by any means possible.

    2. Hoard all resources even if you can't use them. You don't want other people to use resources and possibly turn into competition.

    3. Correct spelling errors made by inferior beings.

    Whats = What's
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  74. #73  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    that should be "2. Hoard all resources ... "

    (what was that again about inferior beings ?)
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  75. #74  
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    Inferior beings? Isn't that also those that don't use capital letters, hey marinxR?
    Come see some of my art work at http://nevyn-pendragon.deviantart.com/
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  76. #75  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    that should be "2. Hoard all resources ... "

    (what was that again about inferior beings ?)
    I have no idea what you are talking about and I would like to refer to point 1 at this point in time.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

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  77. #76  
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    He's on about the spelling of 'hoard'.
    Come see some of my art work at http://nevyn-pendragon.deviantart.com/
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  78. #77  
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    I have no idea what you are talking about and I would like to refer to point 1 at this point in time.
    you mean this one ?

    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
    1. Destroy your competition by any means possible.
    i just did 8)
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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