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Thread: BigThink interview about KABBALAH

  1. #1 BigThink interview about KABBALAH 
    Forum Junior newnothing's Avatar
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    Watch BigThink's interview with Kabbalah expert Michael Laitman where Laitman explains about the science behind Kabbalah and other matters such as the Israel Palestinian conflict.


    ~ One’s ultimate perfection depends on the development of all the members of society ~ Kabbalah
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  3. #2  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    Question; what the hell is kaballah?


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    a celebrity-catching cult
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  5. #4  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    It's the Judaic Mysteries, popularized, just like Buddhism and Yoga to appeal to western consumerists.
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    Sigh......................


    Why make speculative comments about a subject you obviously know absolutely nothing about and haven't even bothered to find out, preferring instead to be informed by gossip columnists and hearsay, and

    on a science forum too.

    There's a branch of Kabbalah that has been westernised and has nothing to do with Jewish mysticism.

    The structure often referred to as the 'tree' in Kabbalah is an excellent tool to use for scientific inquiry into human nature.

    If you can be arsed to take a look

    Isreal Regardie's work is a great help in this area
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  7. #6  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Seeing as the goal of Kaballah is to recognize your nothingness, the nothingness of all concepts and the interdependence and circular natures of all things, including and beyond logic; anyone's work's, no matter how convincing, are bound to be mere distractions.
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  8. #7  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    Sounds a little like manic depression.
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  9. #8  
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    More like extreme narcissism.

    Understanding that "nothingness" is a "divine" state of being brings some light to the use of the symbols.

    The point of it all is the realize that "nothingness" finds it's value in "something-ness" the only reason nothing sounds bad is because something sounds good. It's habituation, more or less, Kabbala, like many paths to individuation, offer to show us a way out. It's just another anti-desire philosophy, popularized to help you get what you want... silly almost, looked at like this, but it is true. Whether you want money or enlightenment, it doesn't matter, saying you don't have desires is pure idealism at it's best, an excuse at it's worst.

    It's almost intriguing enough to make me wonder what it was thousands of years ago. But like all things of this nature, it is impossible to tell if they resemble their original teachings.

    A fair understanding of Taoism, Ayurveda, symbolism, tribal folk lore, and psychology to make sense of it all, have helped me understand myself and the correlations between all these teachings. Kaballa has no place in science, it is a path of individuation, that is all. Kaballa can be supported by science, and Kaballists can be scientists, but this does not make Kaballa a form of science. it is a philosophy, a highly refined art form.

    kaballa requires faith, and to feel it necissary to support faith is contrary to one's goal. Faith can fly on it's own, it needs no reason. Reasons are illusions.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Seeing as the goal of Kaballah is to recognize your nothingness, the nothingness of all concepts and the interdependence and circular natures of all things, including and beyond logic; anyone's work's, no matter how convincing, are bound to be mere distractions.
    The goal of Kabbalah/Qabbalah/Qabalah is not simply to ‘recognise your nothingness’ and the ‘nothingness of all concepts’.
    The goal of Kabbalah is simply awareness and understanding. Kabbalah is a journey which facilitates understanding and awareness of nature, and more specifically it is an excellent tool in understanding human nature on physical, mental, emotional and spiritual levels.

    Kabbalah studies the relationships between all things. It studies relativity, singularity and duality as well as complexity. It embraces everything. It’s goal is to expand human knowledge.

    What you have written above marcusclayman does not expand knowledge in any shape or form, and is simply intellectual gobbledygook about a subject you think you are knowledgeable about, but it’s obvious to anyone who has ever looked into this subject, that you are not!
    And what you have stated is a ‘mere distraction’ and is utter rubbish!

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    More like extreme narcissism.

    Understanding that "nothingness" is a "divine" state of being brings some light to the use of the symbols.

    The point of it all is the realize that "nothingness" finds it's value in "something-ness" the only reason nothing sounds bad is because something sounds good. It's habituation, more or less, Kabbala, like many paths to individuation, offer to show us a way out. It's just another anti-desire philosophy, popularized to help you get what you want... silly almost, looked at like this, but it is true. Whether you want money or enlightenment, it doesn't matter, saying you don't have desires is pure idealism at it's best, an excuse at it's worst.

    It's almost intriguing enough to make me wonder what it was thousands of years ago. But like all things of this nature, it is impossible to tell if they resemble their original teachings.

    A fair understanding of Taoism, Ayurveda, symbolism, tribal folk lore, and psychology to make sense of it all, have helped me understand myself and the correlations between all these teachings. Kaballa has no place in science, it is a path of individuation, that is all. Kaballa can be supported by science, and Kaballists can be scientists, but this does not make Kaballa a form of science. it is a philosophy, a highly refined art form.

    kaballa requires faith, and to feel it necissary to support faith is contrary to one's goal. Faith can fly on it's own, it needs no reason. Reasons are illusions.

    More gobbledygook!!

    It appears that it is you that seems to be suffering from narcissism by way of intellectual posturing!

    Kabbalah does not require faith alone. You are confusing Kabbalah with it’s dogmatic Judaic connections.
    Western Kabbalah uses the tree and it’s symbols in order to explore the universe and human nature.
    It is one of the best scientific tools available so far to mankind in understanding one of the most obscure and difficult to study areas of life – human nature and especially the human mind.
    It is a form of Psychology as well as Philosophy.

    There are two branches to Kabbalistic research.

    There is a mystical side

    And there is also a highly scientific practical side which uses experimentation in a very scientific way.

    It does not rely on faith. It relies on verification through experimentation.

    I do wish certain people suffering from self-aggrandizement and intellectual arrogance would NOT post nonsense about subjects whilst suffering the delusion that they know all, because they simply clutter up the forums with crap, cause confusion, and embarrass themselves completely!
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  11. #10  
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    Let me clarify. I don't think I know all, and it imply that I do is a distraction from our disagreement. I think the term is "strawman"

    I know what I've read, I know what I've learned. If I know wrong, please let me know. So far you just say "You are wrong" but have not told me how.

    "Kabbalah studies the relationships between all things."

    This is indeed what I said. You focused on the one detail, the semantics that you disagree with, and then in an attempt to correct me repeated what I said. Funny almost. It is needless to say, but the tower has fallen, we stand in it's rubble trying to pick up the pieces.

    We don't know what kabbala WAS thousands of years ago, all we know is what it means to us now. Why even call it kabbala? Why not call it "Life"

    It is, like all things, a form of ego identification. And is a distraction from the truth, which cannot be verbalized by saying "This is the way, come and see" because what is more important with such things as individuation(call it understanding human nature if you'd like, but it means the same thing) is the context you find yourself. What works for you may not work for others, and focusing on one branch of teaching may be a step in your path of individuation, but it might be a barrier to others.

    See, I disagree with what you said, but I understand that there is a source of what you said, and that this source, however clouded, find's it's roots in truth. It's fruits are just a bit premature.

    You see what I say as "not having yet seen" what you have seen, but you see, the deal is, for all you know I am beyond such things and that is indeed you who have "not yet seen" what I have seen.

    I am not arrogant enough to say you are foolish though, because it's all about perspective. You haven't seen less than me, I haven't seen less than you, but we both have seen different things, or more precisely, different sides of the same thing.

    "Nothingness" again, finds it's value in "somethingness"

    Realizing "nothingness" has nothing to do with the Nihilistic sense of "all is nothing" but has to do with relativity of perspective. The idea that what I see, what I experience, what I am, is "nothing" what makes all of this "nothingness" exist, is the fact that there is stuff that I do not see, I don't experience, I am not... the path the wisdom is not in knowing what you are aware of, it is knowing that you are not aware of the majority of things going on. That all we can understand is who we are, and what things mean to us.

    "It does not rely on faith. It relies on verification through experimentation. "

    That was part of my point. Except what does it verify? Faith
    and what is it using to do this? Science... not "kabbalistic science"... just science. There is no type of science, it is either science or it is not. The rest is all just ego identification.

    "It appears that it is you that seems to be suffering from narcissism by way of intellectual posturing! "

    If the posture gets the message across, I see nothing wrong with this. Suffering and narcissism are both rather adaptive traits.

    "Kabbalah does not require faith alone. You are confusing Kabbalah with it’s dogmatic Judaic connections. "

    Again, this is one of my points. Kabbalah has been distanced from it's origins to the point that they are mere "connections." I wonder what else has been lost over time.

    "Western Kabbalah uses the tree and it’s symbols in order to explore the universe and human nature.
    It is one of the best scientific tools available so far to mankind in understanding one of the most obscure and difficult to study areas of life – human nature and especially the human mind.
    It is a form of Psychology as well as Philosophy. "

    Do you know anything about neural-biology? I guess in a sense this can be considered a branch of psychology, but it is more about the body than the mind, and it has helped us understand the mind immensely.

    I think it goes without saying, but I will clerify it because some do not understand the difference between fact, theory, opinion and wondering. Maybe I don't make it clear enough, but most of this is not knowledge, it is opinion. I do not claim to know anything and am interested in discussing these things, not interested in persuading people to agree with me. If you can't tell the difference, it is probably because you are trying to persuade people to agree with you, and if this is distracting from your goal, than I consider it my duty and won't step back.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Let me clarify. I don't think I know all, and to imply that I do is a distraction from our disagreement. I think the term is "straw man"

    The cabala and other schools taught me to try to understand other people, even if I disagree with them, even if I suspect them of lieing. It helps to understand that all things come from a common source, and that it is not the manifestation kabbalists are trying to witness, it's the source.

    "Kabbalah studies the relationships between all things."

    This is indeed what I said. You focused on the one detail, the semantics that you disagree with, and then in an attempt to correct me repeated what I said. Funny almost. It is needless to say, but the tower has fallen, we stand in it's rubble and try to pick up the pieces.

    We don't know what kabbala WAS thousands of years ago, all we know is what it means to us now. Why even call it kabbala? Why not call it "Life"

    It is, like most things, a form of ego identification. And is a distraction from the truth for some, but I suspect it might be helpful for others. I personally don't think the truth can be verbalized by saying "This is the way, come and see" because what is more important with such things as individuation(call it understanding human nature if you'd like, but it means the same thing) is the context you find yourself. What works for you may not work for others, and focusing on one branch of teaching may be a step in your path of individuation, but it might be a barrier to others.

    See, I disagree with what you said, but I understand that there is a source of what you said, and that this source, however clouded, find's it's roots in truth. As the tree with it's roots on earth grows high into the heavens, there is a tree with it's roots in heaven, that grows down to the earth. They each sustain each other, but we are not whole, we are not capable of seeing both sides at the same time, we see what we choose and ignore, suppress, and ridicule that which we don't choose. The Kabbala like many other schools of thought teach why and how not to.

    You see what I say as "not having yet seen" what you have seen, but you see, the deal is, for all you know I am beyond such things and that is indeed you who have "not yet seen" what I have seen.

    I am not arrogant enough to say you are foolish though, because it's all about perspective. You haven't seen less than me, I haven't seen less than you, but we both have seen different things, or more precisely, different sides of the same thing.

    "Nothingness" again, finds it's value in "somethingness"

    Realizing "nothingness" has nothing to do with the Nihilistic sense of "all is nothing" but has to do with relativity of perspective. The idea that what I see, what I experience, what I am, is "nothing" what makes all of this "nothingness" meaningful, is the fact that there is stuff that I do not see, I don't experience, I am not, IE, everything we have yet to realize, makes all the stuff we have realized seem important... in turn, the stuff we have yet to realize seems not so important. Kabbala like many teachings shares why and how to escape such limitations of the mind...

    hence the path to wisdom starts, not in knowing what you are aware of, but knowing that you are not aware of the majority of things going on. Then we realize that all we can know is what things mean to us, and from this we can determine why. This is turn allows us to understand who we are, and find our place in the world. Understanding human nature, might be a part of who you are, but it is not a part of who all people are. Thinking that only those who understand others are ascending, and the rest are not is fascism, something strictly against what the kabbala and other teachings are trying to create.

    "It does not rely on faith. It relies on verification through experimentation. "

    That was part of my point. Except what is the scientific branch used to verify? The mystical part: faith.

    science is science, whether it is done by kabbalists or not, whether it is used to study kabbalistic principles or not... attaching the title of "cabalistic" to it is ego identification at best, but will only succede in belittling the scientific value of it... again, science is science

    "It appears that it is you that seems to be suffering from narcissism by way of intellectual posturing! "

    If the posture gets the message across, I see nothing wrong with this. Suffering and narcissism are both rather adaptive traits.

    "Kabbalah does not require faith alone. You are confusing Kabbalah with it’s dogmatic Judaic connections. "

    Again, this is one of my points. Kabbalah has been distanced from it's origins to the point that they are mere "connections." I wonder what else has been lost over time.

    "Western Kabbalah uses the tree and it’s symbols in order to explore the universe and human nature.
    It is one of the best scientific tools available so far to mankind in understanding one of the most obscure and difficult to study areas of life – human nature and especially the human mind.
    It is a form of Psychology as well as Philosophy. "

    Do you know anything about neural-biology? I guess in a sense this can be considered a branch of psychology, but it is more about the body than the mind, and it has helped us understand the mind immensely.

    I think it goes without saying, but I will clerify it because some do not understand the difference between fact, theory, opinion and wondering. Maybe I don't make it clear enough, but most of this is not knowledge, it is opinion. I do not claim to know anything and am interested in discussing these things, not interested in persuading people to agree with me. If you can't tell the difference, it is probably because you are trying to persuade people to agree with you, and if this is distracting from your goal, than I consider it my duty and won't step back.
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  13. #12  
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    Absum,
    when you have been roundly trounced by a polite, elegant, profound riposte the best thing to do is to retreat into nothingness.

    Based upon prior experience you will now launch into an attack on me and my pathetic attempts to live vicariously through the imagined victories of others, or you will denounce marcus's post with a few archiesque non-sequiturs. However, to anyone who is paying attention such devices won't work. However, I do look forward to seeing which logical fallacy you dredge up next, so have at it.
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  14. #13  
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    marcusclayman.........as you have taken the time and effort, I will also, and take the time and effort to respond, some of the things you say I agree, some I don't and some are a little obscure.

    I don't like obscurity. I prefer simplicity and plain speak. People become obscure when they attempt to intellectualize and cloud the argument and discussion in verbosity, and quite frankly it gives me indigestion!

    John.......

    I really can't be arsed with your twitterings and arguing (yawn) with people who obviously know everything there is to know.....LOL...... so what's the point?

    Some people argue for the sake of it and simply to preen themselves in the confines of vain intellectualism.........which stands out clearly in your posts.

    Any chance to jump in there and posture and jab with his arrogant pointy stick, John will take it. Yes we've had run ins before and I know what you're tendancies are...

    I also have a real life to attend to thanks John..........do you?????

    I would rather save myself and my time for those who are genuinely interested

    So to anyone else that might be interested..........

    I have been studying Kabbalah in it's various forms, including it's Judaic connections and it's history for the past 20 years.

    It has a multitude of spellings, depending on it's source and connections, I am a little loathe sometimes to use Kabbalah, but that is the spelling for its Westernized form, unfortunately, Maddonna and her celeb cronies have tainted Kabbalah with commercialism and cultism. I would advise anyone interested in Kabbalah to steer themselves away from Madonna's Kabbalah.com (red string holy water and all that crap!) and it's various branches.

    If anyone is interested further and would like any references or bibliography PM me and I would be glad to share.

    Best regards

    Absum!

    P.S Israel Regardies work The Tree Of Life & A Garden Of Pomegranates are excellent reading on Western Hermatic Qabalah
    Also Lon Milo Duquette has made some great contributions, and one of the wonderful things about Duquette, is he doesn't take himself too seriously and has a wicked SOH, his book The Chicken Qabalah is brilliantly funny and will stop any threat of superiority complexes from arrogant intellectual twits in their tracks!
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


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  15. #14  
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    This is not what I have in mind for a healthy discussion.

    Here is another link where he provides his views regarding the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. http://bigthink.com/ideas/michael-la...olve-conflicts

    What do you think?
    ~ One’s ultimate perfection depends on the development of all the members of society ~ Kabbalah
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  16. #15  
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    Sorry to distract from a "healthy" discussion. But I think dialectic is very healthy indeed when practiced intentionally. What is not healthy is when arguments go unresolved. If you disagree with something it is customary that you propose a reason why. Not doing so is either a concession that you lack reason and have made a decision based on something other than reason, but is otherwise unhealthy because it allows the argument to go unresolved. Two people now have two conflicting opinions, at least one of which is either wrong or misunderstood.

    Now in terms of Cabala and primarily this video, it is important that we find harmony in our disagreements.

    This video is on the verge of being inspirational, but mostly because of the music and the white background. What Laitman says is nothing new, unknown, and certainly has nothing to do with cabala that can't be said by most if not any social-political ideologies. "Harmony" can be used to mean two very opposite things, when it comes to politics.

    Harmony can be compromise between all present parties, which is what Laitman is clearly suggesting.
    BUT
    It can also mean elimination or subjection of all discordant properties by the central or most powerful party, such as is practiced by nationalists and/or fascists. Which is, ironically, probably the most probable result.
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  17. #16  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Absum!

    What you are talking about, I am forced to assume based on your recommended book, Hermetic Cabala: I am forced to assume is a polyglot school of thought(doesn't that have a ring to it?) and without doing an ounce of research I will guess that it's a mixture of ancient Egyptian, Greek and Jewish mysticism.

    Hermeticism was a polyglot school of thought reconciling the differences between Greek and Egyptian mysteries.

    Cabala is the school of thought of Jewish mysteries. Judaism and Cabala do not share mere "connections" they are the equivalent of the tree of life(Judaism) and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil(Cabala) they sustain each other and cannot be separated.

    To study it's Judaic "connections" you would have to study Judaism, not just the parts that seem relevant to what you want to learn. Do you study Judaism? Do you at least discuss Judaic concepts with Jewish scholars?
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  18. #17  
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    Just a quick observation, I dont want to rain on the parade, but Khaballa is BS and the equivalent of Astology (and Religion) :wink:

    I dont mind tips, wisdom, sayings, and so on (its about time people realize our interdependance to each other and the environment which environmentalist have been pointing out for years), just dont pretent that these are more legitimiate or mystical than any other by use of figure of authority or mystical artifice (the 5th dimensions beyond the rabi temples of Eden, book X because its old, invisible man in the sky, the occult movements of the planets, I was contacted by the Eloim extratestrials, I speak with spirits, I know the hidden meaning of lines in hands/teabag/bones, etc, and crap).

    At least Sun Tsu and Confusious etc arent pretending there's anything supernatural or cryptic to their observations and advice :-D
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Sorry to distract from a "healthy" discussion. But I think dialectic is very healthy indeed when practiced intentionally. What is not healthy is when arguments go unresolved. If you disagree with something it is customary that you propose a reason why. Not doing so is either a concession that you lack reason and have made a decision based on something other than reason, but is otherwise unhealthy because it allows the argument to go unresolved. Two people now have two conflicting opinions, at least one of which is either wrong or misunderstood.

    Now in terms of Cabala and primarily this video, it is important that we find harmony in our disagreements.

    This video is on the verge of being inspirational, but mostly because of the music and the white background. What Laitman says is nothing new, unknown, and certainly has nothing to do with cabala that can't be said by most if not any social-political ideologies. "Harmony" can be used to mean two very opposite things, when it comes to politics.

    Harmony can be compromise between all present parties, which is what Laitman is clearly suggesting.
    BUT
    It can also mean elimination or subjection of all discordant properties by the central or most powerful party, such as is practiced by nationalists and/or fascists. Which is, ironically, probably the most probable result.
    I'm sorry, but the only music I hear is Bigthink.com intro music which only appears in the first few seconds. The rest is just white background and interviewee, but that is the same for all other interviews on Bigthink.

    Yes you're right, what Laitman is saying is nothing new at all. The problem is everybody can see the problems in the world today, provide suggestions on how to solve them, but yet the problems persist and nothing is solved. Whether his Kabbalah is the only solution or not I don't know, what i do know is he brought up valid points regarding the problems our world is facing.
    ~ One’s ultimate perfection depends on the development of all the members of society ~ Kabbalah
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  20. #19  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    "Whether his Kabbalah is the only solution or not"

    He says it is. But his focus is not this world. He says that loud and clear. THe purpose of kabbalah is not to make a lovely world, but to bring a person closer to god. We all assume that being closer to God is akin to lovelyness, but I've seen him in a discussion with a jewish man who disagreed with him about the concept of "the middle way."

    To make a long story short, paraphrasing
    The Jewish man says "We are all innately good"
    Leitman says "We must find the middle way between good and evil"

    and so they disagree, the point being
    the jew then asks Leitman "Have you never met a lovely person?"

    and Leitman very clerly says something equal to "Loveliness is not godliness"

    And so, Leitman doesn't want to make a better world, he wants to make an apathetic world, it sounds like.

    I'm not saying a little apathy is bad, but when it comes down to it, repression IS bad, and that's the only apathy I see these days.
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  21. #20  
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    The beauty of the Kabbalah is that it is a tool that has a multitude of uses and can be utilized and practiced in a diversity of ways depending on who is using it and what it is being used for.

    There is no right and wrong with with the tree and it's applications, there is only a way.

    The tree becomes a living thing, grown and shaped depending on an individual and the uniqueness of the individual's experiences.

    It's uses also vary depending on the viewpoint of the observer and practitioner.

    Some might find God within it. Some might find the answer to a maths problem. Some might gain a deeper understanding of the self with the aim of becoming a better fuller individual. Some might find how best to win an argument. Some might find out how hate can be reconciled with love. Some might find the truth.

    That is the beauty and art of Kabbalah (however you want to spell it) and this is a very important point most people miss whilst they argue over which is right or wrong, get bogged down in it's varying doctrines and dogma or dismiss it absentmindedly as gobbledygook without even bothering to look at it with a critical mind.

    The worst form of repression marcus is the sort that people enforce upon themselves by biasing their outlook before they have even dared to take a look.
    Which appears to be what icewendigo is currently suffering from.

    Something is instantly dismissed because it might have associations with religion, Egyptian mythology and magic, hermeticism, or anything other than science, logic and reason, as tripe.

    Well as I said before, the art of the tree is being able to apply all things known to man to the structure of the tree.
    It is used as a tool for contemplation. A framework with points of reference.
    Very much like a living system.

    It has a middle path, and either side there are polarities.
    Each sphere represents a nature & quality of it's own and each sphere and path relate to one another.
    One of the routes on the tree is via the middle pillar. This is the route many take in order to get to know themselves better in order to become more aware of their own natures and be able to grow to be realized individuals.
    The polarities are the opposing forces inherent in all humans such as love and hate for example.
    The middle path enables a person to balance all these polar qualities in order to gain health and well-being an all the levels of physical, emotional, mental and spiritual.
    Some see the bottom sphere as earth and the physical world and the top as God and an abstract spiritual world. Some do not see God at all.

    The purpose of Kabbala with it's diverse uses? To gain a deeper understanding of the nature of what is being observed and increase knowledge of it and it's interrelation to other things, even all things.
    Whether that be Tarot, human nature, the human body, mathematics, chemistry, the universe, god, absolutely anything!

    It's spiritual, mystical and religious purpose is to ultimately see the interrelation of all things, which enables a person to transcend what appears to be a fragmented, dissociated, chaotic universe to experience what mystics have called unity and absoluteness of what some call God and be a part of that. To actually experience it and know it.

    These are the points of Kabbalah/Kabbala/Qabala/Qabbalah etc and that is the true purpose of the symbolism/structure/diagram which looks like a tree and behaves like a living, growing thing.

    That's the last post I am going to make here about this subject, for fear of having to keep repeating myself.

    If folks wish to be biased and prejudiced by rumours, speculations, and other people's opinions without even bothering to take a look and try things out for themselves then that is up to them.

    Contorting yourselves into spasms over Kabbalah at the mere mention of a word such as God, is like throwing away a useful colander because someone said it was hol(e)y
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


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  22. #21  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    "The beauty of the Kabbalah is that it's a tool that has a multitude of uses and can be utilized and practiced in a diversity of ways depending on who is using it and what it is using it for.

    There is no right and wrong with with the tree and it's applications, there is only a way.

    The tree becomes a living thing, grown and shaped depending on an individual and the uniqueness of the individual's experiences.

    It's uses also vary depending on the viewpoint of the observer and practitioner. "

    Kabbalah is a part of life. Life is bigger than Kabbala. You say "the tree becomes a living thing" but YOU are already a living thing.

    You are right though in one thing, "There is no right and wrong with with the tree and it's applications, there is only a way." and as far as "ways" go, there are many, and they all lead to the same place... You.


    "The worst form of repression marcus is the sort that people enforce upon themselves by biasing their outlook before they have even dared to take a look. "

    "Something is instantly dismissed because it might have associations with religion, Egyptian mythology and magic, hermeticism, or anything other than science, logic and reason, as tripe. "

    Your subtle forms of manipulation are weak, and your logic is unfounded. I'll play by your rules though. I am indeed courageous enough to take a look, I have taken multiple looks in the past, in fact those looks crossed over into gazes and approached a degree of moderate interest. If what you consider "daring" is what I consider "being intrigued" then you are right, I did not dare go any further than I have already. Did the kabbala teach you to assume you know people and what they have done? If so, what do you think I occupy my time with?

    As far as Cabala MAYBE having associations with religion, egyption mythology and magi, hermeticism, you are clearly showing how misinformed you are. Kabbala has it's roots in Judaism. It was originally Judaic mysticism. Where did Judaic mysticism and Judaism come from? Well, if you follow Jewish scripture, it came largely from Moses, an Egyptian priest. Hermetic philosophy, historically, is a school of thought meant to reconcile Egyptian and Greek philosophy and religion. Cabala as we know it has been largely influenced by Hermetic philosophy, considering the same people preserved the philosophies all throughout the dark ages(you know the period in time EVERYTHING not catholic was repressed/destroyed/exiled), they were also mixed due to their esoteric similarities. Because indeed, the truth is "everywhere, all the same."

    You assume alot. Let me attempt to clear this up. For starters, my favorite websight is sacred-texts.com... not very scientific, logical, reasonable... so I suppose that makes it tripe. But they do have a great deal of philosophical as well as religious texts, so a degree of logic and reason can be found. I think there is something/everything to be found, in any religion/philosophy, in all religions/philosophy.

    I have an introductory understanding of many schools of thought. Because I'm more interested in the folk lore of Gypsies and the Zulu doesn't mean I lack daring enough to "look" at cabala. I think it's too sophisticated, I prefer the rawness of what life is and why, not the philosophically apathetic ideas of what life could be. But it is clear enough to anyone who knows both sides, that there are no sides, and this is one of the premises of Cabala, I'm surprised you have yet to learn these basics. Or have you learned and just choose to dismiss that little detail? What little I do know of the Cabala, it is clear you may "know" the premises of wisdom, but you seem to not "understand" them, or at least you don't "act" upon them. In fact you act contrary to Harmony if your using such tactics as you do, to convince someone of something, before you even understand where they stand on the subject.

    From what you are saying to me, you think I'm against Cabala, in which case your the one who is practicing "the worst form of repression" Absum, by "biasing" your "outlook, before" you "have even dared to take a look." Or in this case ask me where I stand.

    I am not against Cabala, I am against egoism being labeled as "a way." When there are many "a way" each with their own name, disagreeing on which one is "the way" when they are all the same. Egoism seems not to be "the way" and in fact seems to be a deterrent from "the way" or at least a deterrent from realizing that we are all the same, just expressing ourselves in different ways.

    Any "way" is "a way" whether or not it is named, and naming it is an attempt to "claim" the "way" as one's(or one's group's) own. So the teachings are one thing, and they are, as is truth and "the way", as has been said before "everywhere, all the same." My problem is with the tactics used to share those teachings, when they are blatantly in contradiction to what you are trying to teach. You can't teach someone to sew by flinging a needle around telling them to grab it. Nor can you teach someone they are wrong, if I am indeed so, by saying "You are wrong"

    Please at least provide reasons. Preferably in the form of your own words.

    What you are doing is akin to preaching. You are saying a lot of stuff, but not backing any of it up.

    I think that a combination of neurology, evolutionary biology, sociology, comparative religion, history, and the math and philosophical skills necessary to understand it all in it's context are a way to understand human nature. I can back this statement up if you need proof, but it should be self evident.

    How does your symbol of a tree coupled with one's own perspective help me understand human nature in a way that my symbol of a human being coupled with the scientific method, cannot?
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  23. #22  
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    It seems to me Marcus, that you have completely misunderstood my post

    And all you seem to be intent on doing is picking a fight

    I never said you were wrong

    I never wrote my post with the intention of being manipulative or to preach a particular way

    As i stated Kabbalah is a tool it does not take the place of a living human, it's an available tool that a human can use, if he or she so wishes, depending on their needs at the time.

    And as I stated before, Kabbalah presents itself in a form depending on the viewpoint of the viewer. Some see a use within it and some do not, but that does not mean anybody is wrong or mistaken.

    There are many paths, and it is up to the wisdom of the individual to select the right one for their self. Right only being that which helps and works.

    I know the interesting history and background of the Kabbalah as well it's development to date.

    But it is important not to get bogged down with these details, with Kabbalah, but to be able to step back and see what it's essential nature is and what it's qualities are.

    Whatever origins and route the Kabbalah has taken.
    It was never meant to belong to any one person or group. It's a system and tool available to all, whatever their beliefs.

    The use of Kabbalah does not promote egoism or vanity or intellectualism, on the contrary, one of it's many uses is to counteract these qualities with their opposites, which is gained through understanding their natures.

    Of course one of the essences of Kabbalah is to realize unity, oneness and singularity, or the nature of no-thing but Kabbalah is a journey, and this cannot be realized until one becomes aware of diversity and the dual nature.
    This awareness usually brings about the realization to an individual that diversity and duality are illusions, and that the true nature of reality is this one-ness whereby everything relates to each other, it leads many to realize the one source of all.
    This is one of the uses which contemplation on the tree enables.

    And that is not to say that it is right or wrong, it is just one of the phenomena of the tree.
    That if a person does this and does that it will usually lead to this.

    The tree is full of such formulas that are very akin to science and it's experiments, and this is why people who use it, ultimately reach the same conclusions, even people from varying backgrounds and philosophies.

    In that respect, it is as much a science as any other scientific experiment, that if a person follows the same formula method and procedure, they will usually reach the same conclusion which can be verified with other peoples experiences of the same formula.

    In this sense Kabbalah is a highly scientific procedure which offers a well-trodden framework, even more so that many psychologies which often attempt to blindly 'stab in the dark'.

    The irony of Kabbalah is that you cannot know it from an armchair reading a book on it. I say it is a living tool, because the only way to truly understand and know is to practice it.
    Knowledge has to be backed up by understanding, and that can only come through experiencing things for your self.

    Kabbalah has two branches.

    It's theory and it's practice.

    To only study it's theories without the practice, is akin to reading a cookery book recipe on Spaghetti Bolognese and saying it's delicious without ever cooking or tasting it.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


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  24. #23  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Still sounds like life to me

    I'm not trying to argue, maybe your right, I don't see a point in it. But it's seeming pointlessness is not what I think is wrong with it.

    It's the fact that it has a name and is it's own school of thought, just like all other named schools of thought that preach the same thing.

    You don't have to "intend" to preach or be manipulative to do it, you don't need to promote egoism, vanity etc, to do it.

    For example, I don't need to intend to be human or promote being human, simply living is enough to do that.

    Intent and promotion are not the guiding forces of the universe. There is a degree of action necessary. The action is not complimentary to the intent, and if it is, then the intent is not what it is openly said to be. The medium IS the message. I'm assuming you think that the medium is the meat fed to the guard dog to allow the messenger through.(or however the saying goes)

    The truth has no school, and this can be learned from any school.
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