Notices
Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Why Does the Truth Hurt?..Me at Least...

  1. #1 Why Does the Truth Hurt?..Me at Least... 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,296
    I have been experiencing extreme anxiety for two years. I started taking Citalopram ever since and feel somewhat better. I think that the anxiety stemmed from my struggling with religion and trying to reconcile science and religion to be exact...upon attempting to read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion a few years ago, I felt guilty and evil. My parents taught me to go to church and believe in God and many of the truths that I've seen in evolutionary biology and mythology (the Epic of Gilgamesh as the original source of Noah's Flood story) are undeniable, as well as scriptural contradictions. The fossil record has unearthed no such contradictions. I struggle constantly for finding meaning in life and I fear death now because it's hard to believe in an afterlife at this point. Does anyone else in the scientific community (other than Behe...lol) feel the same way? Am I alone in feeling this way?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    gottspeiler, I would like to move this thread to a more appropriate place. Religion, philosophy, or general discussion, I'm thinking - but I'd like to know what you'd prefer. Let me know and then I'll move it.

    Of course you aren't alone. If anything religion is so prevalent amongst humans because it serves as a comforting guiding principle. Who wouldn't love to believe that a boundlessly happy afterlife is waiting for us after we die instead of nothingness? I lost a very dear family member some years ago and I wish I could know that he still existed somewhere and that I might see him again. When I was first really learning about evolution and behavior it was disheartening to think in terms of all organisms as "selfish," something as children we're taught to think of as such a terrible thing.

    Of course, now I'm reconciled that biological selfish and human selfish aren't necessarily the same thing, and I've also come to terms with the fact that human life is really only valuable to other humans, and not even all other humans depending on who you're talking about. But there's nothing wrong with that. I choose to value human life and that's enough for me. I choose to make my happiness and the happiness of those I care about a priority in my life and that's enough for me.


    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: Why Does the Truth Hurt?..Me at Least... 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Plutonia
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    I have been experiencing extreme anxiety for two years. I started taking Citalopram ever since and feel somewhat better. I think that the anxiety stemmed from my struggling with religion and trying to reconcile science and religion to be exact...upon attempting to read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion a few years ago, I felt guilty and evil. My parents taught me to go to church and believe in God and many of the truths that I've seen in evolutionary biology and mythology (the Epic of Gilgamesh as the original source of Noah's Flood story) are undeniable, as well as scriptural contradictions. The fossil record has unearthed no such contradictions. I struggle constantly for finding meaning in life and I fear death now because it's hard to believe in an afterlife at this point. Does anyone else in the scientific community (other than Behe...lol) feel the same way? Am I alone in feeling this way?
    This is more a question of psychology, rather than biology.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,296
    I'm sorry para. I posted it here because I want to hear from scientists (biologists in particular) what their beliefs are..what they think...however, you can move the thread to general discussion if you would like. I would like to request that you leave it here for awhile until it garners more responses though.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Here's a compromise - I'll leave a shadow topic in the biology forum so that people know it was here.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6 Re: Why Does the Truth Hurt?..Me at Least... 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Nirgendwo und Ueberall
    Posts
    1,296
    Quote Originally Posted by Manynames
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    I have been experiencing extreme anxiety for two years. I started taking Citalopram ever since and feel somewhat better. I think that the anxiety stemmed from my struggling with religion and trying to reconcile science and religion to be exact...upon attempting to read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion a few years ago, I felt guilty and evil. My parents taught me to go to church and believe in God and many of the truths that I've seen in evolutionary biology and mythology (the Epic of Gilgamesh as the original source of Noah's Flood story) are undeniable, as well as scriptural contradictions. The fossil record has unearthed no such contradictions. I struggle constantly for finding meaning in life and I fear death now because it's hard to believe in an afterlife at this point. Does anyone else in the scientific community (other than Behe...lol) feel the same way? Am I alone in feeling this way?
    This is more a question of psychology, rather than biology.
    No, it's more of "does the study of evolutionary biology make it hard to maintain your religious beliefs"? Well, come to think of it..yes..sounds a bit psychological...maybe we could move it to Psych.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,191
    I was indeed very confused when the teacher was angry at me for adding some style elements to a cartoon of the life of jesus that was given to us.

    The style elements consisted of turning every character into cowboys and indians, with the proper characters perforated by arrows. Unfortunately for jesus he was perforated as well.

    I still not sure what the fuzz was about?

    The teacher and whoever made that cartoon is clearly going to hell for putting up false images of God.

    What does it matter I make doodles on a sin?

    Exodus 20:4-6 commands:

    You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,702
    I fear death, not because I have a hard time comprehending an afterlife. I have a good imagination and can comprehend a lot. The possibility of an afterlife though, I am not too confident in, but i've heard a quote before

    To paraphrase "i intend to live this life but once, so i intend to do as much good for others as I can"

    This was a scientist by the way, I don't think he was religious, I actually think he was an avowed atheist

    Religion in general is not incompatible with science. Having opinions on something can get in the way of seeing things objectively, so it is important that if you practice both to keep them seperate.

    Plenty of great scientists are and have been religious. Not that I know them off the top of my head, but I'm sure you can go make a thread asking in the religion forum.

    Anxiety has nothing to do with science or religion. There are plenty who struggle with them but do not have anxiety from it. Anxiety is it's own problem, arising either from a dietary deficiency, nervous or mental trauma, or daily stress. You should be able to debate amongst yourself between religion and science, there is nothing stopping you except you. There are very rational reasons to view both, God has left his calling card in all creations, we should not fear his number we should fear our own lack of willingness to call.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Senior Yash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    I struggle constantly for finding meaning in life and I fear death now because it's hard to believe in an afterlife at this point. Does anyone else in the scientific community (other than Behe...lol) feel the same way? Am I alone in feeling this way?
    No, gottspieler you aren't alone at all to think this, infact i was just about to ask the same question in this section(General Discussion) that "what is the actual meaning of life" I've been thinking on this along with someother questions for quite long, almost since 2007.
    My main aim is to achieve a satisfactory answer on this, i sometimes feel that what has led us to this earth ?? are we here and existing for some purpose ?? and till when is this mentally, socially, spiritually linked life cycle gonna continue ??
    My parents sometimes feel that I'm insane, they say that i should stop thinking on this stupid stuff and try to concentrate in the actual life, studies and all.

    gottspieler i had sent a post in Astronomy and Cosmology section lastyear in march 2008. Just take a look and tell what do you think of it -->> http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...619&highlight=
    from the phrase "For me universe is a kind
    of a box in which we all
    are trapped like other creatures
    ,staying on some other planet" i mean life cycle of death and birth.

    I know you all will be thinking that these are some sort of stupid questions, but if you try to understand the meaning deeply then eventually you'll come to know the actual meaning of these questions.

    Thanks !! ^_^
    Satisfaction Should Be Given First Priority
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10 Re: Why Does the Truth Hurt?..Me at Least... 
    Forum Junior newnothing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    I have been experiencing extreme anxiety for two years. I started taking Citalopram ever since and feel somewhat better. I think that the anxiety stemmed from my struggling with religion and trying to reconcile science and religion to be exact...upon attempting to read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion a few years ago, I felt guilty and evil. My parents taught me to go to church and believe in God and many of the truths that I've seen in evolutionary biology and mythology (the Epic of Gilgamesh as the original source of Noah's Flood story) are undeniable, as well as scriptural contradictions. The fossil record has unearthed no such contradictions. I struggle constantly for finding meaning in life and I fear death now because it's hard to believe in an afterlife at this point. Does anyone else in the scientific community (other than Behe...lol) feel the same way? Am I alone in feeling this way?
    Do you think Science will be able to answer the question "What is the meaning of life?"

    What we do know is that we do not know what will happen after death. I doubt that science is able to answer that either.
    ~ One’s ultimate perfection depends on the development of all the members of society ~ Kabbalah
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11 Re: Why Does the Truth Hurt?..Me at Least... 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Plutonia
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by gottspieler
    I have been experiencing extreme anxiety for two years. I started taking Citalopram ever since and feel somewhat better. I think that the anxiety stemmed from my struggling with religion and trying to reconcile science and religion to be exact...upon attempting to read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion a few years ago, I felt guilty and evil. My parents taught me to go to church and believe in God and many of the truths that I've seen in evolutionary biology and mythology (the Epic of Gilgamesh as the original source of Noah's Flood story) are undeniable, as well as scriptural contradictions. The fossil record has unearthed no such contradictions. I struggle constantly for finding meaning in life and I fear death now because it's hard to believe in an afterlife at this point. Does anyone else in the scientific community (other than Behe...lol) feel the same way? Am I alone in feeling this way?
    My pragmatic approach to life might be refreshing, or maybe it won't... but... here i go.

    I do not fear life, or the things that come with it. In fact, i do believe the ultimate meaning of life is to simply... live it.

    I don't fear death because i was dead before i even had life, so it would make no difference on the larger picture as a whole for my puny existence.

    Though, i am still human. I get depressed from things which other people might not, so i respect that you also get depressed from situations others mignt excell in.

    Good luck.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Plutonia
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I fear death, not because I have a hard time comprehending an afterlife. I have a good imagination and can comprehend a lot. The possibility of an afterlife though, I am not too confident in, but i've heard a quote before

    To paraphrase "i intend to live this life but once, so i intend to do as much good for others as I can"

    This was a scientist by the way, I don't think he was religious, I actually think he was an avowed atheist

    Religion in general is not incompatible with science. Having opinions on something can get in the way of seeing things objectively, so it is important that if you practice both to keep them seperate.

    Plenty of great scientists are and have been religious. Not that I know them off the top of my head, but I'm sure you can go make a thread asking in the religion forum.

    Anxiety has nothing to do with science or religion. There are plenty who struggle with them but do not have anxiety from it. Anxiety is it's own problem, arising either from a dietary deficiency, nervous or mental trauma, or daily stress. You should be able to debate amongst yourself between religion and science, there is nothing stopping you except you. There are very rational reasons to view both, God has left his calling card in all creations, we should not fear his number we should fear our own lack of willingness to call.
    I'll give you one scientist you could look up on who is very religious, and has actually been downclassed since his years of working on black holes to being a psuedoscientist in the eyes of many scientists. This man is called ''Frank J. Tipler.''
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13 Re: Why Does the Truth Hurt?..Me at Least... 
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    5,810
    Quote Originally Posted by newnothing
    Do you think Science will be able to answer the question "What is the meaning of life?"
    no, because science only deals with answerable questions
    the question "what is the meaning of life?" either has a trivial answer (life has no ulterior purpose apart from its own existence) or is a non-question, something akin to "what is the colour of sound ?"
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14 Re: Why Does the Truth Hurt?..Me at Least... 
    Forum Junior newnothing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    Quote Originally Posted by newnothing
    Do you think Science will be able to answer the question "What is the meaning of life?"
    no, because science only deals with answerable questions
    the question "what is the meaning of life?" either has a trivial answer (life has no ulterior purpose apart from its own existence) or is a non-question, something akin to "what is the colour of sound ?"
    We will only say that the question has a trivial answer or that the question is a non-question because we've no idea what the answer is or how to answer it but yet it still bugs us. I cannot accept that the question is a non-question or has a trivial answer, because if it is, can somebody please shoot me. I don't want to live anymore, since life is a meaningless one and is just a trivial answer to a non-question.

    If science only researches answerable questions, then what happens to those unanswerable questions? Do we or can we accept them to be unanswerable and leave it be? Or is there a way to find out?

    Because a person gets depressed either from chemical imbalance in the body or not being able to feel fulfilled, that life is empty.
    ~ One’s ultimate perfection depends on the development of all the members of society ~ Kabbalah
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    I think the only real path to sanity as well as healthy spirituality is to base our own beliefs, philosophy, morals and ethics on our own experiences and the meanings we give them and understanding we gain. NOT from somebody else. Even if that person claims to have direct access to a God etc!

    Anything else instructed or forced is false because it isn't 'real' or healthy because it isn't owned by the person having to carry the instructions or enforcements out.

    People talk about belief in Gods or Philosophies and having faith in those beliefs.
    But I think it would be far better if people had more belief and faith in themselves and in being able to formulate their own ideas and philosophies.
    It is this lack of faith and belief in the self in being able to decide the best courses of action for an individual that leads people to find the safe fold of a religion.

    This is because people panic at not knowing at confusion and doubt.

    Humans feel that they should know all the time what is going on, and that confusion incurs doubt. The unknown is always fearful. But Philosophical training teaches that it is normal healthy and good to experience confusion and doubt. It is good to question and not feel sure. It is this confusion and doubt when pursued with proper inquiry which actually leads to clarity.

    There is a big rift occurring at present between religion and science. It is like a divide between rational and irrational. The believers believing in the unseen and the non believers only believing in the seen. I think this divide will get wider and wider and i think the believers are at fault for not incorporating scientific thought into their beliefs and i think science is at fault for persistently refusing to acknowledge that there is an unseen element to man.

    This rift can not only be seen in humanity as a whole, but in individuals who now find themselves in conflict between their rational and irrational natures.

    Science would like to rid man of this irrational unseen element, but that's impossible, and any attempts to do so will only be at the cost of human development and evolution.
    It will be interesting to see how this rift develops in the future.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cardiff, Wales
    Posts
    5,810
    in the face of uncertainty, i try to follow Richard Feynman's advice :

    "I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things; by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose — which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me."
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    in the face of uncertainty, i try to follow Richard Feynman's advice :

    "I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things; by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose — which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me."
    Good advice!
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Plutonia
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    in the face of uncertainty, i try to follow Richard Feynman's advice :

    "I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things; by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose — which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me."
    You know psycholgically speaking, he was very much afraid. This verse you gave actually refers to a question posited to him whether he was into phsyics to answer the ultimate question of whether he could give an answer to everything ------- but he was unstable man, often perpetrating the relationships between himself and other female members.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Life is inherently meaningless, to paraphrase Sartre human existence precedes essence. The fact is you exist, and the meaning to your life is not pre-determined, thus make what you will of life.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by Manynames
    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    in the face of uncertainty, i try to follow Richard Feynman's advice :

    "I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things; by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose — which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me."
    You know psycholgically speaking, he was very much afraid. This verse you gave actually refers to a question posited to him whether he was into phsyics to answer the ultimate question of whether he could give an answer to everything ------- but he was unstable man, often perpetrating the relationships between himself and other female members.
    Of course he was unstable!

    How on earth do you think he overcame his fear of instability and uncertainty?

    Only the unstable know for certain what uncertainty holds, those who don't know it and would rather remain safely cocooned can only imagine it as fearful.

    Why do you think most of the 'unstable' still embrace instability and carry on their 'madness'?
    Because they know life lives in a bubbling heaving whirling current of chaos, not in a stagnant pool.

    He was probably interested in Physics, as anyone is, because it holds interesting keys to understanding some of the laws of nature.

    I think his answer to the question you say he was answering, to me, seems like a statement from an enlightened mind.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Life is inherently meaningless, to paraphrase Sartre human existence precedes essence. The fact is you exist, and the meaning to your life is not pre-determined, thus make what you will of life.
    I agree heartily...thus the Sartre quote that's always in my sig. Any meaning we have in life is meaning we give it ourselves, and I'm content with that.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Life is inherently meaningless, to paraphrase Sartre human existence precedes essence. The fact is you exist, and the meaning to your life is not pre-determined, thus make what you will of life.
    I agree heartily...thus the Sartre quote that's always in my sig.
    Existentialism

    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Any meaning we have in life is meaning we give it ourselves, and I'm content with that.
    I'm glad you added that bit Paralith

    An existential nightmare is seeing a meaningless life in a meaningless existence.

    When you realise that the only meaning in life is the ones that we give it, then the whole universe can open up before you
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •