December 26th, 2008, 03:16 AM
Merry Christmas !! , عيد ميلاد سعيد! , Весела Коледа! , 圣诞快乐！, 聖誕快樂！, Veselé Vánoce! , Glćdelig jul! , Hyvää joulua! , Joyeux Noël! , Frohe Weihnachten! , Καλά Χριστούγεννα!! , חג שמח! , मेरी क्रिसमस! , Merry Christmas! , Buon Natale! , メリークリスマス！ , 메리 크리스마스!! , God jul! , Feliz Natal! , С Рождеством!! , Feliz Navidad!
To Everyone !! Let the world live peacefully !!
^_^
Amen.
Nollaig shona duit!
December 26th, 2008, 10:28 AM
Fuck the religions. Lose the myths and superstitions that only serve to divide mankind and only then will there be peace and understanding on earth.Originally Posted by Yash
Shubh Natal and کرسمَس مبارک, Yash!!! :wink:
December 26th, 2008, 10:10 PM
calm down bro !!
listen, (Q) no religion ever said that people are meant to live apart from other religion !! in fact every religion says the same that we should live with harmony, peace, understanding !!
It is the certain group of people who are trying to separate all religions by many bad deeds !!
Hope you know now, what actually it is !! ^_^
Thanks John, Kevvy, samcd key !!
^_^
December 27th, 2008, 10:02 AM
Bullshit! If you don't belong to a religion, you are an infidel or non-believer, are evil and will burn for an eternity.
That would part of the hypocrisy of religions. Pure crap.in fact every religion says the same that we should live with harmony, peace, understanding !!
December 27th, 2008, 11:48 PM
They divide you Q. Not I nor anyone else here.
God bless everyone and God bless atheists. Since it costs nothing.
December 28th, 2008, 11:40 AM
Really? So, Christians, Muslims and Jews are all one big happy family? Dysfunctional, perhaps, but happy?
Your god can tafftard.God bless everyone and God bless atheists. Since it costs nothing.
Q that was a pretty atrocious post, even by my atrocious posting standards, for this thread.
December 28th, 2008, 04:11 PM
Here, yup. Look up. And elsewhere for the most part. Your intolerance sets you apart, even from most atheists.Really?
You mentioned peace and understanding. I'm glad you did, even though you had to spit "fuck religion" first to get it out. I guess it's difficult. I hope someday to see you speaking comfortably of love, from love. But for now - my advice - you could just respond to these threads with "I like pie".
We made tourtieres this Christmas. Not that many in my family are Christian, or have any roots in Quebec. A tourtiere is a traditional meat pie and much easier than Big Bird. We put a lot of nutmeg into it. It's a vehicle, or pretense, for something. We all gathered around the tourtiere. Some of us traveled far to eat the tourtiere. Know what I mean, (Q), about pretense?
Thanks. :-D
December 28th, 2008, 05:04 PM
Not really. There are plenty of people who would not like to see bronze age myths and superstitions stranglehold mankind's worldview.
Of course, religion and peace/understanding are insulting to the intellect if used to compare anything but opposite ends of the spectrum.You mentioned peace and understanding. I'm glad you did, even though you had to spit "fuck religion" first to get it out.
Love has nothing to do with religion. What's your point?I guess it's difficult. I hope someday to see you speaking comfortably of love, from love. But for now - my advice - you could just respond to these threads with "I like pie".
Did you worship the tourtiere?We made tourtieres this Christmas. Not that many in my family are Christian, or have any roots in Quebec. A tourtiere is a traditional meat pie and much easier than Big Bird. We put a lot of nutmeg into it. It's a vehicle, or pretense, for something. We all gathered around the tourtiere. Some of us traveled far to eat the tourtiere. Know what I mean, (Q), about pretense?
And are you the poster child for this "peace" and "understanding"?Lose the myths and superstitions that only serve to divide mankind and only then will there be peace and understanding on earth.
I won't have to be, everyone will experience both once your cults are gone.
Sure it will, just read this thread for an example of what an athiest world will be like.
Or move to Russia.
Here's what one learns in an Islamic world, almost as silly as the moon splitting in two and spackled back together, eh Sam?
http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...278&highlight=
Your faith in your own ideology [which you disprove by your own actions] is uninspiring. Perhaps you should first determine if you can follow it, before advocating it as an antidote to the world's ills. Its pretty hard to convince people about the advantages of your creed of tolerance when you drip with intolerance at every step.
What ideology, exactly, do you refer? A cult-free world? Horrors!
I'm so terribly sorry, how embarrassing for me! I wasn't aware Islam held the monopoly on intolerance, for which it exemplifies its advantages to Muslims, only.Its pretty hard to convince people about the advantages of your creed of tolerance when you drip with intolerance at every step.
You're firing a gun with blanks, Sam.
Its easy to be tolerant of infidels in an infidel free world too.
Um, (Q) is an embarrassment to atheists. I'm an atheist and I'm embarrassed.
That's a good question. It would appear we did. :?
I don't suppose that makes any sense to you.
I'm not entirely certain he is an atheist. But he likes his secrecy and being uncommunicative on his personal beliefs [or his personal anything, he could be anywhere from 7 to 70 for all I know], so its hard to get anything concrete from him. You could pretend he's a thiest out to make atheists look bad.Um, (Q) is an embarrassment to atheists. I'm an atheist and I'm embarrassed.
.
That's the difference, you're all for eliminating people while I'm only interested in ideologies.Its easy to be tolerant of infidels in an infidel free world too.
Why? Do you respect religion?
Well..i just went though the posts by (Q), and finally came upon a conclusion that (Q) is surely an atheist, am saying this because he doesn't respect religions, and all the religions were actually made by God. So, (Q) is actually disrespecting god in the other sense !!
Here's a quote by Armand Salacrou !!
"The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell."
You figure out that what does he actually mean !!
according to me, as far as i've understood he is actually blaming man for all kinds evil spread across !!
and now this is where the debate gets ended with my brilliant reply, i guess !!!!! ^_^
wow this thread is ranging from "MERRY CHRISTMAS" to F*** religions.
don't forget stating to obviouswow this thread is ranging from "MERRY CHRISTMAS" to F*** religions.
and mormoopid joins another trend
ALL the religions were created by god? Why the need for SO MANY religions, and why the need for a different message for each religion, some conflicting with others? Clearly, you've given the topic very little thought.
Respect a bad ideology? Should we respect other bad ideologies, like Nazism or Fascism, or even Cannibalism? Where do we draw the line in what bad ideology deserves respect?
The fact that it's so easy to point out bad ideologies does not necessarily mean I support others. It is your "assumption."
Then you have a strange definition of bad ideologies. I note a distinct lack of criticism towards particular ideological crimes.The fact that it's so easy to point out bad ideologies does not necessarily mean I support others. It is your "assumption."
hey hey !! buddy you're getting wrong once again !! the thing is as simple as ABC !! :-D
Its not the religions which says that we should conflict with other religions it's the people who do this for their greedy selfish needs, the same thing goes for the religions propagating bad ideologies !!
this time i think you'ld agree with me !!
January 14th, 2009, 07:46 AM
No No No!!!Fuck the religions. Lose the myths and superstitions that only serve to divide mankind and only then will there be peace and understanding on earth.
That's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
Myths are important stories describing the nature of man, our descent onto our Earth and the secrets of how to ascend back up again.
Mankind only divides itself out of ignorance and misunderstanding the important stories in it's myths.
All the myths of all the religions talk about the same things anyway they simply shroud them differently. They DO NOT contradict each other on the fundamental truths, only with the veils they shroud themselves with.
And the reason for so many different myths, religions and gods? Because we're all different! Thank God! But only different superficially, beneath all the expressions of individuality or tribalism, we are all the same, heading in the same direction whether we like it or not!
What would be better is to bring all the myths together, extract their essence and truths and create new myths out of them to inspire men and women of the modern age.
Even the religions themselves state that men are evil sinners by nature, and can be normal, decent human beings ONLY if they obey and worship their gods. For many, who believe this nonsense, will act accordingly. I would suspect greed and selfishness never existed until religion came along.
January 14th, 2009, 08:22 AM
Geographically speaking, yes. I had asked Dayton whether he thought we should treat science in the same fashion, create hypotheses based on our geographies. North America believes the dinosaurs went extinct due to an asteroid while the Middle East believed it to be diseases. Wouldn't that be a hoot?
Intelligent Design.What would be better is to bring all the myths together, extract their essence and truths and create new myths out of them to inspire men and women of the modern age.
January 14th, 2009, 08:39 AM
Yes Q it would be a hoot if you want to throw in the absurdity argument of a straw man.Geographically speaking, yes. I had asked Dayton whether he thought we should treat science in the same fashion, create hypotheses based on our geographies. North America believes the dinosaurs went extinct due to an asteroid while the Middle East believed it to be diseases. Wouldn't that be a hoot?
We have physical evidence of the above you describe which give good weight to the theories of how the dinosaur became extinct. Anybody who chooses to ignore the reliability of evidence and produce a theory based on pure speculation is stupid.
With religion it's a different matter and on a different plane entirely and the same formula of evidence = proof as in science is much harder to apply because the religious instinct operates in the metaphysical realm and much of it's 'evidence' is through its theories.
Religion is a subjective experience of which it's outward expression manifesting in the physical world is through it's myths and stories as well as its rituals and traditions. Traditions which blend within a culture producing a unique expression of that cultures idea of Divinity and God.
The religious instinct only becomes bad when it becomes 'institutionalized' and produces a body embedded in dogma and doctrines which causes it and its followers to stagnate and prevents progression.
The religious instinct is meant to be a subjective experience with each person as individuals coming to their own conclusions through their own inquiries and experience.
Any religious leader worth their salt would simply point out the direction to any would-be disciple and then let them get on with it without anymore interference.
Any human who tells another who and what God is, or declares another to be wrong about his or her idea serves only to demonstrate the most debase and grosses ignorance and a severe lack of intelligence of the subject entirely.
The subject of which, i should like to point out, is about life in it's entirety.
The nature of Divinity is explainable from a scientific point of view based on the knowledge which science has reached so far. It is also explainable through observing the natural world and how it manifests.
January 14th, 2009, 06:11 PM
This is not a strawman, it is a perfectly valid argument on how ridiculous it would be if we based our answers on religion compared to science. Religion is largely geographical in nature with one part of the world deriving their answers that are totally different than other parts of the world, when asked the same questions.
Kind of like the answers we get with religion. I agree.We have physical evidence of the above you describe which give good weight to the theories of how the dinosaur became extinct. Anybody who chooses to ignore the reliability of evidence and produce a theory based on pure speculation is stupid.
Which covers pretty much 3/4 of the worlds population, hence the problem.The religious instinct only becomes bad when it becomes 'institutionalized' and produces a body embedded in dogma and doctrines which causes it and its followers to stagnate and prevents progression.
Your talking about childhood indoctrination?The religious instinct is meant to be a subjective experience with each person as individuals coming to their own conclusions through their own inquiries and experience.
Let me get this straight, by pointing out the non-existence of gods "demonstrate the most debase and grosses ignorance and a severe lack of intelligence?"Any human who tells another who and what God is, or declares another to be wrong about his or her idea serves only to demonstrate the most debase and grosses ignorance and a severe lack of intelligence of the subject entirely.
The subject of which, i should like to point out, is about life in it's entirety.
In other words, "Divinity" simply doesn't exist, based on science?The nature of Divinity is explainable from a scientific point of view based on the knowledge which science has reached so far. It is also explainable through observing the natural world and how it manifests.
January 15th, 2009, 03:35 AM
Only a fool would confuse religion with science. Each has it's places and uses.This is not a strawman, it is a perfectly valid argument on how ridiculous it would be if we based our answers on religion compared to science. Religion is largely geographical in nature with one part of the world deriving their answers that are totally different than other parts of the world, when asked the same questions.
As I said before, but you obviously skipped that bit, religious experience is based on subjective experience, and therefore nobody can teach anyone else about the nature of the Divinity, all must simple discover and experience it for themselves.
Religions make the mistake of claiming to have all the answers, when they can't possibly, but nor can science.
A wise religion would only point the way to God an nothing more. Unfortunately mankind is still in its infancy and functions as such.
Yes, absolutely i agree with you here and it is a problem.
Because religion is not meant to become Institutionalized.
As I said before it is a subjective experience, profoundly personal and dynamic which should inspire and motivate an individual so that he might be able to have fulfillment and more freedom.
When religions become Institutionalized the impetus becomes stagnant and it becomes degenerate, and instead of giving freedom it becomes restrictive.
We were never meant to still be worshiping the old religions, these should simply give a seeker directions as to where they might possibly find God.
God should be discovered and experienced as an individual, not as a collective.
Absolutely not. I'm talking about an instinct in humans which is as natural as breathing. When a child wonders naturally who made the sun, the child should be allowed to use it's imagination and not have that imagination squashed by the facts of science.
I know is going to be outrage here, but I am not denying science and fact. A child should have these at it's disposal and be told everything which mankind has discovered to date and left to make it's own mind up, but if a child imagines that a God might have made the sun, then those imaginings should not be blotted out by rationality. Because the imagination is one of our most important assets, as well as reason!
Science has it's place in the natural external physical world of which it expertly explores the nature of.
There is also an inner world in the nature of man and woman which spirituality explores. We don't just exist externally as automatons, each and every one of us also has an inner life.
To deny a child that by strangling their natural creativity with rationalism is just as bad as forcing God down their throats.
Religion does bad when it says this is God and this is what he thinks and does, and anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. Children should be allowed to explore and discover for themselves with natural wonder and imagination.
There is such a fear in this rational world that if we are allowed to rely on our imaginations then we might go insane and become stupid or foolish. The same can be said for religious indoctrination and all the restrictions it imposes.
A sane balance is one that incorporates the rational and irrational. An imagination is a wonderful thing when it has Earth to come back to!
No this insistence that there isn't a part of human nature connected to Divinity or a higher plane is absurd.
I am not talking about any religions Gods here,
I am talking about the stuff which makes the spirit soar, that makes the imagination create, that makes understanding that side to the natural world that isn't ordered and cannot be categorized and put into test tubes, but is most definitely there, whether we deny it or not!
The nature of Divinity is explainable from a scientific point of view based on the knowledge which science has reached so far. It is also explainable through observing the natural world and how it manifests.Divinity creates regenerates and multiplies. The other part of it degenerates and dies. But things don't disappear on this planet when they die, they become something else. It breathes in and breathes out. It is and is not.
That is Divinity.
And science, unbeknown to many of its devotees, explains it all prefectly.
It's only mans imagination which makes it wear the cross or the ankh.
Started out as 'Merry Christmas to you all' and just look how it's ended up!
Come on you two, wish each other a hgappy new year and move on for Christ's/science sake!!!
(Q) would you just look at yourself for a minute? Can you imagine a world full of people like you? You're so angry, so determined to prove everyone wrong that you don't realize that you're an example of everything that ISN'T peace and love. Here you are ranting away about how religion screws everyone up while in some high-up mountain in Mongolia a tribe of sun-worshippers are getting along quite peacefully.
Think about it. Who is doing more damage to world peace?
Just for once put your ridiculous tirade on hold and enjoy the fact that you are alive and have (I assume) friends and family. Some people don't.
Happy New Year.
January 15th, 2009, 10:15 AM
I would agree with your first statement, but not the second. Religion is of no use whatsoever, it never was and it never will be.
"Religious experience" is simply the product of confused theists who most likely have already been indoctrinated, hence already know the doctrines of their cult and need to affirm it. Funny how Christians have Christian experiences while Muslims have Muslim experiences. Doh!
As I said before, but you obviously skipped that bit, religious experience is based on subjective experience, and therefore nobody can teach anyone else about the nature of the Divinity, all must simple discover and experience it for themselves.
Religions make the mistake of claiming to have all the answers, when they can't possibly, but nor can science.
A wise religion would only point the way to God an nothing more. Unfortunately mankind is still in its infancy and functions as such.
What god? Are you claiming gods exist?God should be discovered and experienced as an individual, not as a collective.
Children should be taught about all religions and what they comprise, they should never be taught gods made the sun, that is silly in the extreme and does nothing to advance a child's imagination, but does promote delusion.Absolutely not. I'm talking about an instinct in humans which is as natural as breathing. When a child wonders naturally who made the sun, the child should be allowed to use it's imagination and not have that imagination squashed by the facts of science.
God might have made the sun, then those imaginings should not be blotted out by rationality. Because the imagination is one of our most important assets, as well as reason!
There is far more to imagine about the universe without invoking the supernatural, which does little more to confuse and obfuscate.
Nonsense, rational thought does not "strangle natural creativity." Introduce children to the many wonders of the universe rather than fill their heads with imaginary beings.To deny a child that by strangling their natural creativity with rationalism is just as bad as forcing God down their throats.
Agreed, but WITHOUT invoking the supernatural. You might as well tell children everything anyone has ever conjured from their imaginations exists.Religion does bad when it says this is God and this is what he thinks and does, and anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. Children should be allowed to explore and discover for themselves with natural wonder and imagination.
Sanity doesn't require the supernatural to balance ones mind. If you begin teaching children that gods created the sun, you do little more than lie to them. Children want to learn truths, not lies.A sane balance is one that incorporates the rational and irrational. An imagination is a wonderful thing when it has Earth to come back to!
Really?No this insistence that there isn't a part of human nature connected to Divinity or a higher plane is absurd.
... but is most definitely there, whether we deny it or not!
No, it's science. We are from the earth and return to it. That's it. Divinity is for those who either don't know this or refuse to accept it, probably from too much "learning" that the sun was created by gods.Divinity creates regenerates and multiplies. The other part of it degenerates and dies. But things don't disappear on this planet when they die, they become something else. It breathes in and breathes out. It is and is not.
That is Divinity.
Are you saying religions have the monopoly on peace and love? I guess we should just ignore the atrocities religions have caused over the centuries, that continue to do today?
Sun-worshipers in Mongolia? Is worshiping the sun the same as worshiping imaginary gods? Sorry, I don't see the connection with the Judaeo-Christian cults.Here you are ranting away about how religion screws everyone up while in some high-up mountain in Mongolia a tribe of sun-worshippers are getting along quite peacefully.
The Jedaeo-Christian cults, of course.Think about it. Who is doing more damage to world peace?
Happy New Year to you too. Care to listen to the latest bin Laden recording calling for a holy war? I'm sure he'll bring to us the world peace you refer. Of course, there won't be anyone around to enjoy it.Just for once put your ridiculous tirade on hold and enjoy the fact that you are alive and have (I assume) friends and family. Some people don't.
Happy New Year.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...aden-gaza-tape
And of course, I'm looking at my property taxes and the fact that I'm paying for every church, synagogue and mosque's property taxes that litter the landscape as they enjoy tax-free immunity. I don't ever recall seeing scientific institutions that may be doing research and development that save lives getting the same exemptions. Do you?
I also notice how religious politicians make decisions that affect my life based on their holy books. And, now Muslims wish to inject Shariah law into our society, laws that are based on their militant cult. Nice.
Religions don't have a monopoly on peace and love, I didn't say that.
If you're gonna attack religion you can't ignore the older and more numerous ones. If you're just out to get the Abrahamic religions then say so and leave the others alone.
Again, you're focusing solely on the Abrahamic religions. My point is that all the other thousands of religions do nothing to harm the world, yet you attack them for causing the woes of the universe.
There are, blatantly, insane groups of people who know that religion is a very very powerful tool for forcing impressionable people to carry out atrocious acts. However you cannot lay the blame at the feet of the religions that have been scapegoated by these people. Their aim is to cause as much chaos and turmoil as possible. They don't care about their 'enemy's' lives, they don't care about their own people's lives. They simply want to kill and hurt as many people as possible.
So one mad man calls for a 'holy war'. You then blaming this on Islam is exactly what he wants. Imagine if the west condemned Islam and blamed it for all the atrocities committed in its name. That would cause a 'holy war'. That is exactly what bin Laden wants. This man is persuading you to take exactly the view he wants you to take. There is nothing bin Laden fears more than world peace, and there is nothing he hopes for more than an international attack on Islam.
Realize what you are doing. Your view is more damaging to world peace than any sole religion has been.
As I'm sure they don't have a monopoly on violence and war, but most certainly have claimed the lions share throughout history.
But, it is the Abrahamic religions that cause the majority of strife in the world. If a religion had no influence over societies, as the Abrahamic cults do, there wouldn't be a problem. Of course, violence and wars are just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
If you're gonna attack religion you can't ignore the older and more numerous ones. If you're just out to get the Abrahamic religions then say so and leave the others alone.
I would also include the Hindus and Sikhs, as well, comprising in total with the Abrahamic cult, more than five billion people. Isn't that enough?Again, you're focusing solely on the Abrahamic religions. My point is that all the other thousands of religions do nothing to harm the world, yet you attack them for causing the woes of the universe.
They want to do so in the name of their god, and they will usually have support from their cult members. The important thing to remember is that religion will cause normal people to act violent. If simple depictions of Muhammad, for example, can set off almost two billion Muslims to riot, how is that not blaming the religion?There are, blatantly, insane groups of people who know that religion is a very very powerful tool for forcing impressionable people to carry out atrocious acts. However you cannot lay the blame at the feet of the religions that have been scapegoated by these people. Their aim is to cause as much chaos and turmoil as possible. They don't care about their 'enemy's' lives, they don't care about their own people's lives. They simply want to kill and hurt as many people as possible.
One man is certainly not going to represent all Muslims. But, all Muslims represent that one man's beliefs.
So one mad man calls for a 'holy war'. You then blaming this on Islam is exactly what he wants. Imagine if the west condemned Islam and blamed it for all the atrocities committed in its name. That would cause a 'holy war'. That is exactly what bin Laden wants. This man is persuading you to take exactly the view he wants you to take. There is nothing bin Laden fears more than world peace, and there is nothing he hopes for more than an international attack on Islam.
That's almost too funny.Realize what you are doing. Your view is more damaging to world peace than any sole religion has been.
Did you know that the Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Iqbal Sacranie, condones and promotes pedophilia, based on his religious views? Of course, one example after another can be found in this regard.
"The charge of paedophilia refers to Mohammed's marriage with Aisha. Yet a paedophile is one who is primarily aroused by children. For most of his married life, the Prophet (peace be upon him) had one wife, who was a widow with children of her own. After her death, he married others, most of whom were former widows themselves. Why would the Prophet have waited three years after his betrothal to Aisha – his only virgin bride – if not because he was waiting for her to attain puberty?
http://www.mcb.org.uk/library/article_12-01-05.php
BTW - my signature line is representative of the Muslim mindset from one of the members here.
I think you misunderstood me. By world peace, I mean the relaxed, content mindset that does not seek to clash with others and cause strife. The majority of religious followers are relaxed, peaceful people. They do not seek to clash with others.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
I understand what you're saying, but I simply don't agree. Again, I use the example of Muhammad depictions that cause riots in the street from those so-called, "relaxed, peaceful people."
There are few an far in between Muslims who would not support those riots, even from their armchair perspectives.
Ah....hello wert
We are discussing, arguing and counter-arguing, stripping and ripping, clarifying etc etc........on a particular subject in order to be able to individually reach a point of clarity of understanding.....well I hope that's what Q's intentions are.
The whole purpose of argument is to be able to re-assess your point of view from another persons point of view, because each point of view surely has the potential for an essence of truth based on another persons experience of living. Their are other people in the world apart from me! And their ideas are just as valid!
This forums only objective is to discuss with others in order to be able to debate, discuss and share ideas and knowledge for Christs and sciences sake.
So it is rather odd that it is condemned and people take issue when it is put into practice.
I think the reason for this is that for most of you that still pertain to a patriarchal belief that a woman is incapable of thought logic or analysis or anything deeper than the kitchen sink, it makes you feel rather uncomfortable.
It is also possibly a symptom of the immature stage of infancy which pertains to the omnipotence of a toddler who perceives their own existence and nothing else, which appears to be the current phase of human progression.
Defending an argument until it is irrefutably proved to be false is honorable. Taking personal exception and injury from somebody disagreeing with your point of view is childish.
Oh and....Happy New Year Q!
January 16th, 2009, 05:26 AM
Thousands would disagree with you there Q, and I am talking about people who have experience of it, not simply theory or indoctrination.I would agree with your first statement, but not the second. Religion is of no use whatsoever, it never was and it never will be.
There is a portion to man beyond the thinking reasoning & rational mind. Explain to me how it is that a man or woman might have a thought, an idea, or a feeling suddenly present to the mind without the thinking faculty taking part in it at all. Where did that thought, feeling or sudden intuition and impetus come from? This is a phenomena we ALL experience each and every day. There is no denying this. Now the logical thinking side of our minds naturally questions, as is in it's nature, as to what the devil is going on here?
Now your reasonable mind will say that of course our day to day thinking influences this impetus and that's what gives rise to the nature of these seemingly random impulses, but the question is what is this function that causes this and where does it lie within us? Also there are many impulses that seem to come from somewhere else, such as might be found in scientific or religious revelations. Knowledge and understanding which seems to appear from nowhere and appears to invade the mind like a sudden shaft of light.
Some more poetic have described these experiences as profound floods of consciousness, when we are suddenly aware of much more than we ordinarily know and gives us insight into a reality which appears to be much more real than the thinking mind can present, who's instinct is to compartmentalize, segregate in order to inspect closer a particular portion of life.
This is the problem with the thinking mind. It has limitations to it's sense of perception just as our senses do.
To illustrate this, take the case of a biologist looking through the microscope and wonders at a cell that knows when to split itself and performs it's designated tasks, and when the biologists takes a step back and observes that all the cells within the body which perform the multitude of different tasks designated to it, and wonders that there is some kind of intelligence behind all this (Yes - Intelligent Design). A cell is a cell and is made up of the same substance as other cells, but there is something causing that particular cell in a particular way. Science will say, yes electrical impulses, but what makes those impulses in the first place. What says to one cell you perform 01 and to another to perform 10? Now the biologist realising and wondering this has now expended his consciousness from the segment in the the microscope, where he observed a truth to the nature of that particular cell to the comprehensin of a bigger truth when he observes and considers all the cells together and how they function together.
It is natural then for the reasoning mind, when considering all the above to wonder if there is some kind of Intelligent design working behind the scenes. This thinking leads to the natural impulse of 'religion' and considering whether there might be a bigger intelligence at work.
All my cells do their thing quietly in the background and their efforts make up the body of me. It is not absurd, but a natural logical thought progression to wonder that there might also be an even bigger intelligence or energy which embraces and oversees everything. It is not absurd to wonder that i might be a cell in the body of something much bigger than my limited faculties can comprehend.
This is the essence of 'religion' and the formulation of the idea of 'God' which is a highly logical conclusion to come to. It is not irrational or crazy.
What is irrational and crazy is the way, over many centuries, this impetus we have called 'religion' and the idea some call 'God' has been distorted and diseased through indoctrination, obsession, manipulation and power hunger and every negative aspect of man until it has become a degenerative backward idea even in the minds of the intelligent.
I hate the words 'religion' and 'god' as much as you do. It makes me cringe when I come across those words. Because these terms have become worthless and rotten through millennium of abuse.
I used to be a socialist but i had to call myself something different because of communist influence on the term socialism.
I practice 'magic' (Qabalah, not the type pulling bunny out of the hat!) but I have to call it different because as soon as you mention magic people imagine I am blackened devil worshiper conjuring a horned God in order to give people acne! (Thanks to contributions of the subject from the media and the film industry, as well as other 'magicians' that thought it might be wheeze to try an confuse and frighten people)
Strip off all that dogmatic crap and all the labels and get to the bottom of what it is exactly without reference to any religious organization or institution.
Many religious belief systems and practices such as ritual, ceremony, and especially yoga with it's mantras and meditations are purely scientific methods to pierce the veil of ordinary consciousness in order to attempt to discover what it is that lies behind the thinking mind which gives rise to unexplainable phenomena. These methods have been practiced for centuries and have been rigorously recorded and re-confirmed through numerous experiments to their validity. It has been discovered that the thinking mind thwarts perceiving this inner reality. Thinking has to be trained to stop it's interference for a period of time in order to be able to see past it.
People who have practiced such methods will all vouch that there is something else quite profound which lays beyond thought.
The biologist will gain an ecstatic vision if he continues with his path of thinking and suddenly comprehends like a shaft of light the overwhelming beauty of the universe, each thing functioning as a part to make the whole. In religious terms he will see the 'body of God'.
This experience has caused many a great artist, poets, scientists, philosophers to experience the nature of genius. Suddenly the ugly chaos becomes ordered and beutiful. Suddenly life seems to make sense. The depressive and morose will suddenly laugh at the absurdity of his illness, when the bigger pictured is revealed.
The fundamental purpose behind religious practices minus the embellished tosh are to re-awaken this capability beyond our normal level of perception in order to perceive the whole mechanisms of the Universe, which allows us to understand a great deal more.
When operating with the intellect and the thinking mind which analysis the experience afterwards great leaps in understanding and comprehension can be made.
If you only look at one piece of a jigsaw puzzle, you are not going to see the bigger picture.
The thinking mind is only capable of looking at one (or if it's lucky maybe two or three) bits of the puzzle at any one time. (Try it!) Therefore the thinking mind is incapable of observing the bigger picture. Its utterly impossible!! Another portion of mind has to come into play, and that is the part which doesn't think, but simply becomes as still as a tranquil pool and observes.
So, and here is the crux of the matter, when the thinking mind is not operating (which is possible after training) what is operating? It is the empirical mind which is left. That which experiences. The thinking mind cannot leap in, once trained with it's biases, its judgements, it's theories etc etc and taint and warp the experience. The experience is experienced in it's entirety. This experience is closer to reality than the thinking mind. The old adage, that you will never truly know a thing unless you experience it for yourself.
Only after the experience should the reasonable rational mind intervene, in order to make its sense of it. Which it will fun in trying but also quite difficult to do, because the experience is quite profound and beyond words.
Anybody who has truly had this experience will undoubtedly tell you that there is much much more than 'meets the eye' that there is an infinitely huge unimaginable something beyond thought which brings immeasurable knowledge.
This brings about much of the alleviated suffering that religions talk about of which they clam their practices bring. Because when you can experience and grasp the bigger picture it makes all the little problems that obsessed our thoughts and caused us to fret and worry and be in a perpetually vicious circle, become so trivial and ridiculous that we might then kick ourselves for being so absurd in allowing them to impair our lives.
This is freedom through seeing the bigger picture is what is known as ascension, elevation, rising above and transcending in religion.
You transcend the Earthly plane (The material world and all its struggles and petty disagreements) into the 'Heavenly realm' where the bigger picture is grasped and consciousness is expanded.
The practices to achieve this transcendence are rigorously scientific. Anyone who follows certain practices will succeed and be able to record the experience. Any skeptic who wishes to deny such things must first try out these procedures to see if they work, just as any scientist should when presented with the results of anothers successful experiments.
I do believe it is time for humanity to get to the crux of what all this religious business is about and what exactly is the purpose to it's method without shrouding it and burying it beneath cultural and individual belief.
If we are to grow and become better people it is the only way forward. I believe we are at a very dangerous point of our existence where we are losing our capabilities of using this important faculty within us because of the fear and loathing of the idea of religions and Gods caused by the very religions and religious themselves through it's abuse and ignorance. It doesn't mean that function within us will disappear, but it does mean that we will only utilize and complete half of our selves and i think this will cause much more suffering and hardship and instead of progressing forward we will no doubt end up exterminating our species as well as many others.
Let's give this idea of God a new name? Perhaps we could call it 'life Force' so it will appeal to science as well as the spiritual.
Mankind didn't invent Gods, he simply gave observed natural phenomena names and personas in order to try to comprehend these forces, which appeared to operate externally and internally.
Nowadays we know better (or do we!?) and thanks to Jung these forces in man are called by the science of Psychology- Archetypes.
The quality of Archetypes can also be observed externally in nature. E.g -Uncontrolled anger contains the quality of a raging storm, compassion as warmth of the sun etc etc.
This part of ourselves is becoming severely neglected, is it no wonder then we all feel despair at being engulfed by the arguments and wars about identity and land nobody agrees on anything, arguments go on and one and we make ourselves miserable over petty trivia, and we all feel surely there is more to life than these embittered circles and there is something much more fundamental beyond them. Being able to transcend these through the methods described, are a sure way to make them seem absurd and also people will no doubt begin to focus and agree more on what's fundamental to life.
[quote]
Well of course they do! That's obvious."Religious experience" is simply the product of confused theists who most likely have already been indoctrinated, hence already know the doctrines of their cult and need to affirm it. Funny how Christians have Christian experiences while Muslims have Muslim experiences. Doh!
The portion of the mind I have discussed above which doesn't think, actually communicates and perceives symbolically. Which is why there is much symbolism in religion. A symbol doesn't require thought to perceive it.
A symbol are used to prompt the mind to have an experience associated with that particular symbol.
For example in Qabalah i might want to access a particular portion or quality of my mind, or it's archetype.
Now I have considered this portion with my rational mind, but now I want to transcend thought in order to experience it through a controlled experiement, in order to be able to learn more about it's nature. Real knowledge comes from experience. In knowing it's nature and qualities I will be able to have more control over it and utilize it instead of letting it control me, like anger for example. Know thy enemy. Because I don't want my mind to think i will use a symbol as a launch pad for my consciousness. Now this symbol could be a picture of a raging storm with lightening, It will partake of the quality of the phenomena or characteristic I wish to explore. I observe the symbol, shut off my thinking mind, and attempt to fully enter into the experience of this quality. After which I then close my magic circle and record the experience methodically in a journal and then my thinking mind can once again take part in analyzing it (with the knowledge also that my thinking mind does not have all the answers)
I come to get to know a part of myself better therefore I am capable of controlling that part of myself better and put it to a better positive use.
I have had to learn and incorporate my symbolism from Qabalah in order to be able to do this. A raging storm is symbolic to me of uncontrolled rage, just as the negative aspects of Mars has as well as the Dionysian frenzy.
A calm pool of water has the symbolism of peace and tamed emotions.
[quote]
Ok as I said above let's call all these different observable forces in the universe as well as inside of is, something else?What god? Are you claiming gods exist?
[quote]
Yes, as i originally stated, children should be told everything. I did NOT say children should be taught God made the sun, i said a child should be given the freedom to imagine what they will. If you have given them them the truth there is no danger of them becoming insane or deluded. The imagination is a crucial essential part to every human and it should be allowed to breathe naturally.Children should be taught about all religions and what they comprise, they should never be taught gods made the sun, that is silly in the extreme and does nothing to advance a child's imagination, but does promote delusion.
There is far more to imagine about the universe without invoking the supernatural, which does little more to confuse and obfuscate.
And as for confuse and obfuscate. It is the mind which actually confuses by it's own obfuscations! Not only that but it is a cunning bastard that often misleads especially when we apply theory and opinion without often us being aware of it!
In magic the thinking mind is symbolized by air and the sword. Air because of its ambiguity and tendency to be swept away by it's currents, and the sword because it is a weapon that slices through air which is exactly the weapon neccesary to deal with it!
[quote]
I think you misunderstand me. As I have previously stated. Rationalism is just as important as imagination. And as i also warned, the modern world seems to want to stamp out imagination because of this irrational fear it will breed delusion.Nonsense, rational thought does not "strangle natural creativity." Introduce children to the many wonders of the universe rather than fill their heads with imaginary beings.
Delusion is only caused when the rational isn't functioning. When the mind transcends to the irrationality of experience, but doesn't have the rational mind to come back to, then you've got trouble, only then is there a danger of delusion.
Both capacities MUST function in unison, each relying on the other for the WHOLE truth, and each acknowledging that they only have PARTIAL truth.
[quote="(Q)"]What does supernatural mean Q? Does it mean something which is beyond the naturally perceived world?
If a child is taught that each portion of it's mind is equally valid in knowing the truth of it's existence. Surely we should have faith that a child with such an understanding is far likely to be able comprehend the difference between reality and imagination, if they have experience of both, and they have been given the liberty to experience both and learn about each of its limitations.
[quote="(Q)"][quote="Absum!"]Sanity doesn't require the supernatural to balance ones mind. If you begin teaching children that gods created the sun, you do little more than lie to them. Children want to learn truths, not lies.A sane balance is one that incorporates the rational and irrational. An imagination is a wonderful thing when it has Earth to come back to!
[quote]
As i said before, neglecting a portion of our minds that has the capabilities of comprehension beyond the sense and thought creates unbalance and causes an individual to only see half of the sum.
Now THAT is a lie, and that is the biggest lie of all, which creates the sum total of all the human. suffering on earth
Have you tried it Q? Then if you're supposed to be scientifically minded then, why not?Really?
Surely if you haven't or won't then you are in no position to posit an argument which denies such an experience.
That's not very scientific is it?
It's staring you in the face Q, as it is with many intelligent people, but you are blind because your mind is fixed in one place.No, it's science. We are from the earth and return to it. That's it. Divinity is for those who either don't know this or refuse to accept it, probably from too much "learning" that the sun was created by gods.
Where you to give the scientific methods a go of expanding your consciousness into the realms of non-thinking you would see and experience it.
[/i]
Merry Christmas all would have sufficed, especially for a topic wishing all season's greetings, and perhaps thanking others. I only said look what it ended up as, as one might when seeing a giant oak tree from a tiny acorn... :wink:
January 16th, 2009, 01:19 PM
I was almost expecting to hear millions/billions.
However, from the hundreds of explanations I've read or heard, not one explanation in which the individual claimed an "experience" was indistinguishable form their imaginative, or what they wanted to experience. Most were born-again Christians.
It's called the imagination, we all have them.There is a portion to man beyond the thinking reasoning & rational mind. Explain to me how it is that a man or woman might have a thought, an idea, or a feeling suddenly present to the mind without the thinking faculty taking part in it at all. Where did that thought, feeling or sudden intuition and impetus come from? This is a phenomena we ALL experience each and every day. There is no denying this. Now the logical thinking side of our minds naturally questions, as is in it's nature, as to what the devil is going on here?
Within the brain, of course.Now your reasonable mind will say that of course our day to day thinking influences this impetus and that's what gives rise to the nature of these seemingly random impulses, but the question is what is this function that causes this and where does it lie within us?
The brain is an amazing piece of work.Also there are many impulses that seem to come from somewhere else, such as might be found in scientific or religious revelations. Knowledge and understanding which seems to appear from nowhere and appears to invade the mind like a sudden shaft of light.
The poetic are exactly that, poetic.Some more poetic have described these experiences as profound floods of consciousness, when we are suddenly aware of much more than we ordinarily know and gives us insight into a reality which appears to be much more real than the thinking mind can present, who's instinct is to compartmentalize, segregate in order to inspect closer a particular portion of life.
This is the problem with the thinking mind. It has limitations to it's sense of perception just as our senses do.
Only a biologist who didn't understand what he was doing would make such a silly statement.To illustrate this, take the case of a biologist looking through the microscope and wonders at a cell that knows when to split itself and performs it's designated tasks, and when the biologists takes a step back and observes that all the cells within the body which perform the multitude of different tasks designated to it, and wonders that there is some kind of intelligence behind all this (Yes - Intelligent Design).
Not at all. To begin asking about a "bigger truth" is of a philosophical nature.A cell is a cell and is made up of the same substance as other cells, but there is something causing that particular cell in a particular way. Science will say, yes electrical impulses, but what makes those impulses in the first place. What says to one cell you perform 01 and to another to perform 10? Now the biologist realising and wondering this has now expended his consciousness from the segment in the the microscope, where he observed a truth to the nature of that particular cell to the comprehensin of a bigger truth when he observes and considers all the cells together and how they function together.
It is an alternative amongst many, but far down the bottom of list of more reasonable and more likely alternatives.It is natural then for the reasoning mind, when considering all the above to wonder if there is some kind of Intelligent design working behind the scenes. This thinking leads to the natural impulse of 'religion' and considering whether there might be a bigger intelligence at work.
It would be absurd if that was the alternative you chose to believe amongst many other reasonable alternatives.All my cells do their thing quietly in the background and their efforts make up the body of me. It is not absurd, but a natural logical thought progression to wonder that there might also be an even bigger intelligence or energy which embraces and oversees everything. It is not absurd to wonder that i might be a cell in the body of something much bigger than my limited faculties can comprehend.
And yet, the formulations of the multitude of gods throughout history had absolutely nothing to do with your suggestions, and everything to do with sheer ignorance.This is the essence of 'religion' and the formulation of the idea of 'God' which is a highly logical conclusion to come to. It is not irrational or crazy.
Religion may have supplanted ignorance, but science has provided the knowledge to relinquish ignorance.What is irrational and crazy is the way, over many centuries, this impetus we have called 'religion' and the idea some call 'God' has been distorted and diseased through indoctrination, obsession, manipulation and power hunger and every negative aspect of man until it has become a degenerative backward idea even in the minds of the intelligent.
Hobbies are a good thing. One of mine is to teach children how to build and use telescopes.I practice 'magic' (Qabalah, not the type pulling bunny out of the hat!) but I have to call it different because as soon as you mention magic people imagine I am blackened devil worshiper conjuring a horned God in order to give people acne! (Thanks to contributions of the subject from the media and the film industry, as well as other 'magicians' that thought it might be wheeze to try an confuse and frighten people)
Perhaps, but I've not heard of people who practice yoga strapping on dynamite and blowing themselves up in crowded markets.Many religious belief systems and practices such as ritual, ceremony, and especially yoga with it's mantras and meditations are purely scientific methods to pierce the veil of ordinary consciousness in order to attempt to discover what it is that lies behind the thinking mind which gives rise to unexplainable phenomena. These methods have been practiced for centuries and have been rigorously recorded and re-confirmed through numerous experiments to their validity. It has been discovered that the thinking mind thwarts perceiving this inner reality. Thinking has to be trained to stop it's interference for a period of time in order to be able to see past it.
People who have practiced such methods will all vouch that there is something else quite profound which lays beyond thought.
Einstein had similar revelations, but attributed them to the wonders of the universe, not to gods.The biologist will gain an ecstatic vision if he continues with his path of thinking and suddenly comprehends like a shaft of light the overwhelming beauty of the universe, each thing functioning as a part to make the whole. In religious terms he will see the 'body of God'.
To indulge in ones fantasies, yes. Meaningful to understand something, probably not.The fundamental purpose behind religious practices minus the embellished tosh are to re-awaken this capability beyond our normal level of perception in order to perceive the whole mechanisms of the Universe, which allows us to understand a great deal more.
As they say, ignorance is bliss.This brings about much of the alleviated suffering that religions talk about of which they clam their practices bring. Because when you can experience and grasp the bigger picture it makes all the little problems that obsessed our thoughts and caused us to fret and worry and be in a perpetually vicious circle, become so trivial and ridiculous that we might then kick ourselves for being so absurd in allowing them to impair our lives.
Some people do acid and make similar claims.This is freedom through seeing the bigger picture is what is known as ascension, elevation, rising above and transcending in religion.
You transcend the Earthly plane (The material world and all its struggles and petty disagreements) into the 'Heavenly realm' where the bigger picture is grasped and consciousness is expanded.
You're talking about two different things, the imaginative and evidence.The practices to achieve this transcendence are rigorously scientific. Anyone who follows certain practices will succeed and be able to record the experience. Any skeptic who wishes to deny such things must first try out these procedures to see if they work, just as any scientist should when presented with the results of anothers successful experiments.
No, let's deep six the imaginative rantings of theists and their gods as they have and never will serve any purpose whatsoever.Let's give this idea of God a new name? Perhaps we could call it 'life Force' so it will appeal to science as well as the spiritual.
We covered that, it's called ignorance.Mankind didn't invent Gods, he simply gave observed natural phenomena names and personas in order to try to comprehend these forces, which appeared to operate externally and internally.
Religions have ruled the world for millenniums and have had ample time to demonstrate their wares, so to speak, and it has become one of mankind's most embarrassing failures. It's time to grow up.This part of ourselves is becoming severely neglected, is it no wonder then we all feel despair at being engulfed by the arguments and wars about identity and land nobody agrees on anything, arguments go on and one and we make ourselves miserable over petty trivia, and we all feel surely there is more to life than these embittered circles and there is something much more fundamental beyond them. Being able to transcend these through the methods described, are a sure way to make them seem absurd and also people will no doubt begin to focus and agree more on what's fundamental to life.
The observable forces in the universe are already well measured, mostly defined and have theoretical predictive characteristics. Nothing else of a so-called "spiritual" nature have never been detected.Ok as I said above let's call all these different observable forces in the universe as well as inside of is, something else?
Then, tell children the wonders of stars, how they work and how they evolve. Let them look through a solar telescope (which I own) and view the sun as it is, not what the ignorant assumes it is.Yes, as i originally stated, children should be told everything. I did NOT say children should be taught God made the sun, i said a child should be given the freedom to imagine what they will. If you have given them them the truth there is no danger of them becoming insane or deluded. The imagination is a crucial essential part to every human and it should be allowed to breathe naturally.
No, the modern world needs to stop letting their vivid imaginations rule their worldview.I think you misunderstand me. As I have previously stated. Rationalism is just as important as imagination. And as i also warned, the modern world seems to want to stamp out imagination because of this irrational fear it will breed delusion.
The ability for the mind to function rationally is removed by childhood religious indoctrination in favor of fantasy.Delusion is only caused when the rational isn't functioning.
That which is not part of nature, which of course, has never been detected. The question to those who believe in the supernatural is to explain how it interacts with the natural world. I had come up with a far better solution to that problem than any theist who attempted to tackle it by using science instead of superstition.What does supernatural mean Q? Does it mean something which is beyond the naturally perceived world?
I've tried a great many things theists have asked of me, which produced the exact same results as random events would. It is the theists who refuse to acknowledge the many misses to the few hits they get.Have you tried it Q? Then if you're supposed to be scientifically minded then, why not?
Surely if you haven't or won't then you are in no position to posit an argument which denies such an experience.
That's not very scientific is it?
The only thing staring me in the face is nature and the world around me, governed by the laws of physics. And, I eagerly experience them everyday of my life, constantly in awe of the wonders of the universe and the short amount of time we have here in our attempts to understand it all.It's staring you in the face Q, as it is with many intelligent people, but you are blind because your mind is fixed in one place.
Where you to give the scientific methods a go of expanding your consciousness into the realms of non-thinking you would see and experience it.
Who the hell has time to sit around pandering their spiritual fantasies?
(Q) what i think is that, you just seem to be bullyingwith your opinions to others !!
don't you agree with me !!!!
Religion goes beyond bullying people. But then, that's the error most theists make who think their religion is part of them, like an arm or a leg. If they think ancient myths and superstitions are part of them, then they also have to accept that ALL ideologies are part of them in the same way. And of course, they don't. Like everything else with religion, they pick and choose that which panders to their personal likes and dislikes, in much the same way they choose what accessories will be worn with their clothes or what hobbies they indulge.(Q) what i think is that, you just seem to be bullying
don't you agree with me !!!!
Do you actually think theists follow their religions as transcribed?
Like babbling in sleep. Hitting the quote button does not prove comprehension. I really wish you'd digest what Yash is saying.Religion (bad)... theists (ridiculous)... religion (all bad)... they (petty, wrong, Q despises them).(Q) what i think is that, you just seem to be bullying
don't you agree with me !!!!
Do you actually think theists follow (what Yash is saying?)
Anyway, let's pick up a strand of your latest ramble Q. Happy new year. I'm gonna say that again January 26th, for Chinese new year. Out with the rat, in with the ox. What say you to this imposition? Do you equally reject the oppressive Gregorian calendar?
I suspect your inference has to do with counting the years from the birth of a fictional character?
The Gregorian calendar was simply a slight modification to Caesar's Calendar, of which many Orthodox churches continue to follow even though they are at least a dozen days behind the Gregorian.
The Gregorian calendar is not a very good one, despite it's wide use.
(Q)
I think you are not understanding what "Absum!" is saying. I believe Absum! and many other misunderstand what this experience really is.
This experience seems much like visiting another world, and for me I had seen the most horiffic thing I have ever seen, and laughed at it. It felt like I was having revenge on everything I have ever been angry at.
Our mind associates almost every piece of memory and data within our mind with an emotion, these can be perceived like images and sounds. To my understanding of what I felt is like a type of conscious dream, which was felt as though it was beyond imagination. I believe our brain organises the data as though the person having the experience was asleep. Except it is seems much more efficient. It is know that our brains solve problems and come up with new understanding when we sleep, this experience to me is best explained as a form of conscious REM.
The experience the first time to me was like this:
I began to feel angry and happy, as though a rage was begining to consume me and I was acheiveing every piece of revenge I ever wanted. I started picturing masses of destruction and pain in other things and people which I new I hated, yet I was not in control of myself. It began to feel as though I rose into this world of chaos and I truly enjoyed it. Then it formed as a massive world as though I was perceiving it all, like a bigger picture.
As it ended I began to feel empowered as though I have achieved something of greatness, as though I was enlightened. This revelation Absum! was not from god but was from the feeling of destroying everything I hated.
It lasted for about 20 minutes the first time, it isn't always the same and its difficult to reacheive, but it can also affect you emotionally in many ways, such as a sudden shock of fear or hopelessness.
Could this "religious" experience be a combination of REM and Micro sleep?
Sure, I mean the arbitrary. Like spin a globe and hit any point. Pick a card: that's your card. Expediency. Mindless isn't it? So what is it? It's the root of falsehoods, like December 25th or whatever. But we need these fictions. Life is fundamentally arbitrary.I suspect your inference has to do with counting the years from the birth of a fictional character?
...The Gregorian calendar is not a very good one...
Any fool can criticize a fiction, because it's untrue. The lesson seems lost here..
I read knots & repression in your posts - in other words the angry young man complex. To get through, I'd have to step into your personal space. I believe you'd react defensively. Maybe a girlfriend can do it for you.
Sure, just like we all need holes in our heads.
Complete nonsense, you're way off base. Try sticking to the discussion rather than bleating what you know nothing about.I read knots & repression in your posts - in other words the angry young man complex. To get through, I'd have to step into your personal space. I believe you'd react defensively. Maybe a girlfriend can do it for you.
Sounds more like a mild panic attack. Many people have them.
Well..i do believe in some specific myths but being superstitious is not meant for me at all !!! I also wish that all kind of superstitions should be eradicated from this world including people who preach this !! :-D
and yes i believe that most of the true theists follow their religion but still there are some people who proclaim that they are theists and follow their religion with their will, but actually they are insulting their religion by not following at least the basic rule of their religions.. and just this is the reason which inspires you to get bad ideas about all the religions because of the stupid people i just mentioned above.
what do you say now ?? ^_^
[quote="(Q)"]Sure, just like we all need holes in our heads.
Some people actually do have holes in their heads and intentionally so as well!
It's called Trepanation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanation
HA! Good one.
That would be the entire eradication of all religions.
Very few actually follow their religions. The vast majority make it up as they go along, usually based loosely on their childhood teachings from crude comic books, depicting Noah, or some such fictional character.and yes i believe that most of the true theists follow their religion but still there are some people who proclaim that they are theists and follow their religion with their will, but actually they are insulting their religion by not following at least the basic rule of their religions.. and just this is the reason which inspires you to get bad ideas about all the religions because of the stupid people i just mentioned above.
what do you say now ?? ^_^
Those religions demand strict obedience and strict adherence to doctrine. Few, if any, obey or adhere to those demands.
Thought you'd like that!HA! Good one.
Right, that's yer personal space and we won't go there.
So, do you have a point to all that?
Nothing new, no. Carry on...
Whatever happened to wishing people and moving on?
Did you even read the title of the thread?
Just put a comma between wishing and people, if you're going to be persnickety
Persnickety!Just put a comma between wishing and people, if you're going to be persnickety
What a wonderful word....persnickerty...nickety..noo
Could write a little ditty out of that.....
Oh and happy New Ears to everyone too
Well, wishing usually goes out with one's childhood, if you're going to be childish.Just put a comma between wishing and people, if you're going to be persnickety
Yours maybe!Well, wishing usually goes out with one's childhood, if you're going to be childish.Just put a comma between wishing and people, if you're going to be persnickety
pls omit !!
hmm... i see, pretty close to my thoughts, at this point particularly !! :-D
i knew that there would be time when you would actually be influenced by my thoughts !! :-D and this is exactly where it starts !! :-D :-D
Thank God !! ^_^
Not really, I would have said the same thing to anyone else prior to this threads creation. In fact, I had a huge argument some time ago in this regard.
The absurdity of picking and choosing that which most attracts one to their cult as opposed to what the cult's doctrines demand is widespread and those choices are as dissimilar as fingerprints.
Of course, the strawman retort is often, "But, we all have fingers."
See Yash there can be nothing in common, because everything religion touches is defiled and must be purged!
So you're upset because all theists are not rigid fundamentalists? Because they don't behave like clones of each other and have differing opinions on their religion? You think there should be a single, unchanging and inflexible approach to theism?
Does this mean that all atheists have exactly the same approach to atheism? No differences in stances? There is no God, full stop?
Hilarious. Your holy books make the rules, theists just don't abide by them. And yes, theists ARE supposed to be clones of each other, with only one purpose in life, to serve their god. You aren't supposed to have opinions or be flexible.
Atheists aren't directed to fulfill the obligation of obedience and subservience to imaginary beings. Big difference.Does this mean that all atheists have exactly the same approach to atheism? No differences in stances? There is no God, full stop?
So, why don't you practice what you preach and what your religion demands of you?
And thiests are? How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Who decides what my religion "demands of me"?So, why don't you practice what you preach and what your religion demands of you?
Pong, how can you say that only defiled things are touched by religion and so it has to be purged ??See Yash there can be nothing in common, because everything religion touches is defiled and must be purged!
and i think in other words you are disrespecting religion along with people who have faith in it !!
Well i don't agree with your above mentioned statement at all !!
God !! please bless them all !!
^_^
Yash, you really should understand that disrespecting, criticizing, critiquing, or anything else towards a religion is in no way disrespecting the people who have faith in it. Religion is merely an ideology.
You yourself may disrespect a number of ideologies and may voice your opinions as such, yet you probably don't think you're disrespecting those who have faith in that ideology, and you would be right.
Ya, i agree by chance i might have done something against religion that i don't know !! but still someone saying something bad against the religion isn't good at all, because i am not the only person out here in this forum how would dislike your thought, infact there might be many of'em like me !!
and yet, again i just don't get it that why do you keep on saying that religion is an ideology ??
hope, one day you'll yourself start beveling in God !!
I'm not just talking about religions, but ALL ideologies.
That would make you and them intolerant to the criticizing and critiquing of ideologies, not just religious ones. You might as well just censor ALL speech, if that is your attitude. That fact that you may take a religious ideology personally is not anyone's issue but your own.but still someone saying something bad against the religion isn't good at all, because i am not the only person out here in this forum how would dislike your thought, infact there might be many of'em like me !!
Simple, it is an ideology by definition. Please consult a dictionary.and yet, again i just don't get it that why do you keep on saying that religion is an ideology ??
Why? The concept of gods is totally irrelevant. Of course, you didn't say which god I should start believing. Zeus? Allah? Jehovah? Which one specifically do you refer of the thousands of gods throughout history?hope, one day you'll yourself start beveling in God !!
if there is a god, then i would like to believe that there is only one, called by different names in different regions. and as for the holy books, many are fictitious.
people should pray to god only to feel some company when they are alone, and to keep themselves away from evil deeds.
some of you seem to be extremists, rather than atheists (the temperature on this thread proves it!). being an atheist doesn't mean forcing others to be the same, it is to show equal respect and love to people of different religions, AND ALSO TO THE IDEOLOGY THEY BELIEVE IN!!!
i'm not telling to follow all the religions in order to respect them. you can follow none but still respect them by not criticising. you musn't follow a religion. all things you do must only be good and acceptable by the society around you...
as for me i'm officially a hindu, but i don't believe in its sayings just because it is my religion. i believe some of them (not all) because i think they are right and appropriate for the society thats around me. i don't believe much of the 'god' thing, but i must admit that i sometimes (involuntarily) turn to god when i'm afraid and alone...
it's good to see other Indians here; all the extremism was getting tedious. :-)
Welcome!
ok !! i get it, i agree religion is an ideology, it's surely a set of rules, facts, ideas !!:-DSimple, it is an ideology by definition. Please consult a dictionary.
You can believe in any God, first one i would say you to believe in God of your religion, I'm not forcing you to believe in God of your religion rather you can worship any other God of other religion, because all the God preached the same message of good thoughts. :-DWhy? The concept of gods is totally irrelevant. Of course, you didn't say which god I should start believing. Zeus? Allah? Jehovah? Which one specifically do you refer of the thousands of gods throughout history?
Here's what Clifford Geertz had stated in favour of religion ->
"A religion is a system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive and long-lasting moods and motivations (Ö.) by formulating conceptions of a general order or existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic.
what ever he said is just too good, exactly what i thought !! :-D
what do you think of it (Q)??
Ideologies may contain rules, facts and ideas, but by definition it is more of an encompassing "group think" or imaginary or visionary theorization. Religion itself is not known to contain many facts, mostly rules and ideas.
I don't have a religion, that is the point. And, if I choose some other religion, then that would completely contradict the very idea of religion, the acceptance of a single, all-powerful, all-knowing creator.You can believe in any God, first one i would say you to believe in God of your religion, I'm not forcing you to believe in God of your religion rather you can worship any other God of other religion, because all the God preached the same message of good thoughts.
What you are suggesting is that I choose a religion as if I were choosing a bowling team to join.
As to preaching "good thoughts" one can open any number of holy books and find the very worst of thoughts contained within. I could list pages of quotes from a variety of religions that would demonstrate those gods to be a malicious, murdering despots.
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" Thomas JeffersonHere's what Clifford Geertz had stated in favour of religion ->
"A religion is a system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive and long-lasting moods and motivations (Ö.) by formulating conceptions of a general order or existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic.
"Lighthouses are more useful than churches" Benjamin Franklin
"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. ...this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it" John Adams .
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." Robert Pirsig
"The "psychotic" God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" Richard Dawkins
I think I just did. :-Dwhat ever he said is just too good, exactly what i thought !! :-D
what do you think of it (Q)??
Do you think these scriptures are fictitious?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm
I was joking.Pong, how can you say thatSee Yash there can be nothing in common, because everything religion touches is defiled and must be purged!
Do you think these scriptures are fictitious?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm
I said "many" not "all"!!!
I'll take that as an emphatic "NO!"Do you think these scriptures are fictitious?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm
I said "many" not "all"!!!
And those rules and facts comprise of all good well being of a person !!
To give you more precise details about religion, here's what it actually says ->
- Moral Code
- Sense of community and security
- Acceptance rituals; marriage, deaths, baptisms
- Helps people through crises- gives them hope and faith
- Pressures of demography (the study and measurement of populations). It can help relieve stress and strain on a particular society, e.g. if the population grows too big for its food supply- it can help by bringing people together to save resources.
- Explains and soothes mysteries such as death by saying it"s part of life"s cycle etc, and praying to the God of plenty in times of little crops etc.
It can't be that you don't belong to any religion. and definitely chosing any other religion won't contradict any idea of religion !! So, just relaxI don't have a religion, that is the point. And, if I choose some other religion, then that would completely contradict the very idea of religion, the acceptance of a single, all-powerful, all-knowing creator.
I just don't believe it, and it can't be that Holy Books having bad thoughts in it !!As to preaching "good thoughts" one can open any number of holy books and find the very worst of thoughts contained within. I could list pages of quotes from a variety of religions that would demonstrate those gods to be a malicious, murdering despots.
It's not anybody else's fault when people take those good thought in a bad way !!
There are unlimited quotes against religion or in favour of religion !!"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" Thomas Jefferson
"Lighthouses are more useful than churches" Benjamin Franklin
"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. ...this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it" John Adams .
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." Robert Pirsig
"The "psychotic" God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" Richard Dawkins
So, you can't prove anything from showing these few quotes against religion !!
Now, that's like a good supportive guy !!I was joking.Pong, how can you say thatSee Yash there can be nothing in common, because everything religion touches is defiled and must be purged!
Puleeeze! Those are all old, tired, fallacious arguments and superstitions to placate the ignorant and indoctrinated. They also fly in the face of actual "facts" that demonstrate the more religious a society is, the more violent crime, spousal and child abuse, divorces and murders they have over secular societies.
I understand that theists cannot possibly conceive of a world without their god delusions, and who make the critical error asserting everyone has religion. They also are unable to comprehend the fact that their own doctrines are contradicted within themselves and by other religions. Their unabashed defense of their doctrines is hardly less than expected as any agreement on their part in regards to actually critiquing the doctrines would have those doctrines crumble like a house of cards rendering their beliefs as mythical.It can't be that you don't belong to any religion. and definitely chosing any other religion won't contradict any idea of religion !!
Of course, you don't believe it, I wouldn't expect that. Few, if any theists actually think about their doctrines.I just don't believe it, and it can't be that Holy Books having bad thoughts in it !!
And, neither can you, so why did you bother?There are unlimited quotes against religion or in favour of religion !!
So, you can't prove anything from showing these few quotes against religion !!
However, when we actually look at scriptural quotes, we can easily find the malicious and despicable contained within. And, that is something theists refuse to acknowledge.
Yeah, it's like they conspire to accentuate the positive. It must be a cynical ploy. Right (Q)?
It's called 'paying lip service' as we observe their actions speaking louder.
I'm sure you'll be able to poison, er, I mean enlighten their minds soon enough.
I'm not able to open that web page. so i dont know what you are referring to. but there are some books which are an account of a true person and his/her journey through life, but at the same time there are many books which were written only as a fiction, but were taken up as a holy one because of the agreement with the beliefs of people at that time. i do not disrespect those books. they do tell us what is good and what is bad, and how to find peace. all i say is that they are just like guidelines and can be suppressed if they are found to be disturbing communal harmony and social peace in any way.I'll take that as an emphatic "NO!"Do you think these scriptures are fictitious?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm
I said "many" not "all"!!!
ha! wait! i saw that page just now! and 99% of the content of those books is fictitious!! i don't know what others say about them! they might be inspired by real events and situations, but are not exact events! The Vedas ARE ACTUALLY GUIDELINES. you must have heard of Mahabharat and Ramayana. One of those books was written by a theif. But I'm greatful that he got the thought of writing such a book. It has lead my country much farther than it might have been with out it.
Why is it so, that you always have to discard the true facts, true sense of life !! and if that was old, tired, fallacious statements then you tell what are the new ones !! I know that you won't get any !!
Definitely we theists can't even thing of a world without god, without him it will be like living in a world of morally bad, wrong and evil people !!I understand that theists cannot possibly conceive of a world without their god delusions, and who make the critical error asserting everyone has religion.
Of course, you don't believe it, I wouldn't expect that. Few, if any theists actually think about their doctrines.Theists always look at the good things among different holy books. First of all there won't be any bad thing in any religious book but if there is any kind of wrong statement it doesn't bother them, they always go for the good ones !!However, when we actually look at scriptural quotes, we can easily find the malicious and despicable contained within. And, that is something theists refuse to acknowledge.
What ever you stated initially. So, just to discard all that statement of yours, i wrote that quote of C. Geertz . This was actually which got me bothered !!And, neither can you, so why did you bother?
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