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Thread: The New Me

  1. #1 The New Me 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    Hello there. Many of you know me and perhaps some of you don't. But I believe this warranted to be addressed. I have tried to find the old thread by me of the same question but cannot locate it and thus have no other reason but to start this here.

    I have had numerous posts and PM's by numerous people naming me the following (at least): sarcastic, over bearing, not suiting myself to others etc. These do not hurt me in anyway (like they would have used to), but they do concern me, as I wish to appear fair and friendly to all (even though I am aware of the old saying 'You can please some of the people some of the time'). So I was wondering what all of you think of the new me. Most of you will understand what I mean by that (mostly the older members), to those of you who do not I will explain.

    You see when I first joined I was very brash, very under the influence of my fathers ideals and philosophies (which where (and still are today) very closed minded and quite hateful and discriminating). I have, having been living alone for the past year come to a new light of thought and a new way of life, which has progressed overtime to the point that is today. However, seeing that this forum is very dear to me and I value the opinions of quite many of you. I was wondering what you think of myself as of today.

    I have lived by many philosophies taught to me by to name a few; KALSTER, Ophiolite, marnix. Those are only a few. But I am getting a lot of feedback from a select few who are suggesting my posts are a bit 'toffee nosed' or 'policing', that I should take into consideration my 'tone' when posting, (because I apparently am being sarcastic (which I may add I have no intent)).

    So I was wondering if you think I am friendly, interesting to talk with, open minded etc. Or the opposite. I know opinions are sometimes irrelevant, but I value everybody here and am wondering if the way I am behaving is on majority more preffered or disliked. I am trying, and believe myself to be fair with great many people. I understand I behave like a moderator at times, I do that for a very good reason, to mention mostly that most importantly I behave that way as I prefer to keep this forum to a respectable standard, and stand in when moderators are absent. I have been that way for quite a while now.

    To finish and not take anymore of your time up, I thank you for any feedback in advance, apologise for taking an entire thread up to pose this question and to say thank you (again).


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  3. #2  
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    You know my opinion

    No one likes 'overbearing' ...be careful you are not turning into your father.

    Ease off on commenting personally about anyone, pm people if you have a problem with them and keep flames, adhoms, police posts off the board.

    I still like you despite the fact you are a pain in the ass sometimes. I know you have a good heart and that's all that counts in 'like stakes'.


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  4. #3  
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    You do seem to have a lot of concern for others much of the time, Chaotic. And it does seem quite irrelevant most of the time to the topic at hand etc. But it doesn't happen too often as I see it.

    Sarcasm ftw btw
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  5. #4  
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    I think that only those who knew the old you detect any cracks in the new you.
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  6. #5  
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    Thanks guys for the feedback.

    PS As a note to ToR, I would like to comment on a few points:

    Ease off on commenting personally about anyone
    Exactly where do I do this? For starters exactly what is it you beleive is inappropriate about commenting personally about people? If I comment on people, its in good nature as a pointer, most of the time people need showing who they are. And if I may say so, half of the things you are trying to 'show' me you haven't actually backed up by linking any URL's in reference to what it is I am 'doing wrong'. If you really concern about me not being a 'pain in the ass', then link me where you believe I have shown inappropriate behaviour.

    if you have a problem with them and keep flames, adhoms...
    I have no problem with any member, I challenge their beliefs and methods in a natural and good natured way. If I don't challenge them in any way, in what way exactly is this a science forum? I neither flame people. To 'flame' people is to follow them around and throw constant, sometimes insulting comments at them, which to say I am being insulted by you doing so. So you could in fact be named to be flaming. I never flame anyway, show me a link where I do. BTW, its not the insult I throw at you (if you see it as that), it is yourself that makes the insult. As a say though, I do not purposfully insult, and never intend to, therefore any insult you find is your (or others) own doing.

    ...police posts off the board.
    If somebody is being inappropriate I will intervene and warn about them and their behaviour. That is my responsibility as a member, to always be vigilant, as I concern for the standard of this forum. I'm sure suitable action will be taken when a moderator arrives however.

    I still like you despite the fact you are a pain in the ass sometimes. I know you have a good heart and that's all that counts in 'like stakes'.
    Thank you. Many people are a 'pain in the ass' in life though aren't they? Many people who are a 'pain in the ass' have been quite helpful in your life, parents for example. You are the only one (among another) who sees my behavoiur as this nature. And quite ironically (I won't name that person) it goes parallel with you though, and the discussion with a recently absent member.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    I have had numerous posts and PM's by numerous people naming me the following (at least): sarcastic, over bearing, not suiting myself to others etc.
    Why do you presume that YOU are in a position to give pointers to people? This 'feedback' would seem to indicate your 'pointers' are not desired.

    Pointers for you:

    Respond to thread posts rather than doing a running commentary on everyones posting style.

    If you have something to say about a poster that is NOT thread topic related, send them a pm.


    Lots of post indicates quantity NOT quality, thus you are not the TOP of this board despite the fact you started a thread called 'TOP 20 posters' based solely on post count.

    There are much worthier contributers of this board and they don't include you, or me for that matter in case you think I am presuming it did.

    Paralith is one such poster. Always comments on topic with informed information, rarely gets involved in personal spats and never 'chit chats' this I suppose is the definition of a quality rather than quantity poster.

    Many people who are a pain in the ass are NOT helpful as you claim. I have never regarded my mother as a pain in the ass. Sorry, but I do not consider you helpful I consider you harmless and that is why despite you being a pain in the ass I like you.

    Though I have to say these 'pre election speeches' are getting somewhat annoying.

    You are not forum police, it is NOT your duty to point out inappropriate behaviour. If someone feels unhappy with a reply they can complain themselves and are capable of doing so.

    You seem to think that no one holds an opinion that is unexpressed to you. Do you believe people can't have an opinion without telling you about it?

    In TV if 10 people complain in writing they take that to equate to 10,000 as they know most people won't bother to complain in writing (or pm as the case is here) THUS the calculation. This in your case means 2000 people feel this way about you if two have voiced it in writing.


    Finally, you asked for a response in regard to your behavior I have given it. Take it in the spirit intended and REMEMBER..when I had a problem with you I sent you a PM, I did NOT make a thread about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    I have had numerous posts and PM's by numerous people naming me the following (at least): sarcastic, over bearing, not suiting myself to others etc.
    This seems to indicate more than two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    You do seem to have a lot of concern for others much of the time, Chaotic. And it does seem quite irrelevant most of the time to the topic at hand etc. But it doesn't happen too often as I see it.

    Sarcasm ftw btw
    Take heed Chaotic

    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I think that only those who knew the old you detect any cracks in the new you.
    Chaotic note here : 'cracks' is not referring to your butt.

    So thus far in this thread alone, three replies...all negative. Plus one other in pm = 4,

    4000 negative views by TV standards (do we have that many members?)

    Come on now, chill out, heed the replies and back off a little.
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I think that only those who knew the old you detect any cracks in the new you.
    Heh, I was being "subtle". What I meant was that maybe Chaotic has a false face but newbie me doesn't see that, while the old-timers must see a mask even if there is none. Perhaps we'd better all don newbie shades and be done with this huggy-yukky session hm?
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  9. #8  
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    Young people who are abrasive adopt this persona because they are afraid that they may not be God. (Old people who are abrasive have become convinced that they are.)
    In more temperate terms I have always ascribed your posting style to youthful vigour and the questioning (and changes) that accompany that. I don't have a firm opinion on how you have changed. I have criticised you occassionally. As with all my criticisms - unless I am speaking in moderator mode - they are highly personal and directed at a specific point or points. I don't think your posts have ever enraged, angered, or frustrated me, either recently or in the dim distant past.

    As a aminor aside, I am perplexed as to why you have this obsession with getting lots of posts. I am fairly sure that if you looked at post count per day you would already be the leader. (I understand The Sun sells more copies than The Times.)
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite

    As a aminor aside, I am perplexed as to why you have this obsession with getting lots of posts. I am fairly sure that if you looked at post count per day you would already be the leader. (I understand The Sun sells more copies than The Times.)
    Beautifully put

    You remind me Chaotic of someone from sciforums called darksiddzz aka Seredenzi. He obsessed about being a virgin.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Respond to thread posts rather than doing a running commentary on everyones posting style.

    If you have something to say about a poster that is NOT thread topic related, send them a pm.
    Back at ya. :wink:
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  12. #11  
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    I didn't know you before you became the new you but I have met many that acted as you described above. If you use to act like that (I'm sure I come off the way you formerly acted as well now and then) and you've changed into what you are now I see it as a welcome change. You should as well. Your stress levels are probably down a whole lot and you are more than likely more open minded to things. I just think you have grown in maturity.
    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell
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  13. #12  
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    Thank you all again. I am progressing as anyone will, this is another stage of that development to what I see as greater than I was. I may become greater and... (insert Ophiolites light humour here). I am not concerned about my number of posts ToR, Ophiolite, and I most certainly only post in response to other people, for one reason and another. View my latest 100 posts if you want, they all are decent I'd say. I don't care if I had 5 or 5000 posts ToR, they don't matter. The mods can reset, or put infintie by my name for all I care.

    PS. This thread is here becasue I wanted to ascertain the majority opinions of the forum and did not feel like PM'ing everyobody here. It also means that people can't be sneaky, if you are going to say something vulgar and harrasing (which I won't say who has been doing via PM here), then you can say it for all to hear.

    (I understand The Sun sells more copies than The Times.)
    Something to do with a certain page number.... I can't.... quite... remember .

    A final note to you ToR. Most of what you said about me in my post is basically what you are doing to me now. That is why I am concerned with others opinions on such a matter. I would complain about your flaming of me, or possibly even ignore you. But I am extremley tolerant, and by denotion of you capitals and your selection of 'choice' words, I'd say you are somewhat frustrated about my behaviour, to say the least. But what I do to other people is none of your concern, even if you are trying to be helpful (see if others felt that about my posts, they'd say something).

    Bottom line, I know I act policing, I know I can be annoying, brash and a pain in the ass as you say sometimes, but I'm young ToR, and have just as far to go as anyone else my age. (If I may say so I believe I'm doing pretty well, would you want somebody else who goes out to getting kaylaid every night on the forum hm?). And if anyone has a problem with my way of being who I am, then they can respond to that in a mature adult way, via PM not to treat them the way I am. Then I will stop whatever it is they don't like. And until somebody does that ToR, for you, hard luck.

    I didn't know you before you became the new you but I have met many that acted as you described above. If you use to act like that (I'm sure I come off the way you formerly acted as well now and then) and you've changed into what you are now I see it as a welcome change. You should as well. Your stress levels are probably down a whole lot and you are more than likely more open minded to things. I just think you have grown in maturity.
    Thank you BumFluff, that really means a lot to me. Personally I can't see what it is that I've done so morally wrong that it warrants an agony aunt agonising attack.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    In my opinion, the "old" you suffered from two major difficulties:

    One, you continually suggested that certain dogmatic and discriminatory opinions (that you say come from your father) may have a basis of truth in science. But you are not the only person who has been that way and by no means will be the last, and such things can easily be debated and argued as they are meant to be on a forum like this. I for one am glad to see you have begun to change in this regard. It heartens me to think that a place like this can reach out to and change someone like the person you used to be.

    Two, you were extremely sensitive to criticism of any kind, and this sensitivity combined with the large amount of reactionary things you posted just made for a bad combination. In other words, you could dish it out but you couldn't take it.

    Unfortunately, I think your second problem is continuing. You are still very sensitive about what other people think of you. You like discussing your high post count and you like policing the forum, but here you are again, unhappy that some people still don't like what you do. You quote that old adage of "you can only please some people some of the time," but you do not take it to heart.

    Here is what I think. If you're happy talking about your post count, then do it. If you're happy policing the forum, then do it. If a couple people give you shit for it in a way that is not meant to be constructive criticism, then ignore them and move on. If many members of this forum that is so dear to you feel that your behavior is detrimental to this place, then take heed and adjust your behavior. Then, move on. Don't obsess over it. Don't worry about it. Don't make long drawn out posts talking about it, and STILL getting upset over the responses to it. If you're going to dish it out, then have the decency to sit still and take it.

    And then, move on. No matter how important this place may be to you it is still just an online discussion forum. Make sure you have the proper perspective on this and its relationship to your real life.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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  15. #14  
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    Thank you very much paralith. That again means a great deal to me. Although I am not sure why I am so sensitive to certain people, to the extent that I am, (I still believe it is less than it used to be).

    I just started this whole thread becasue of ToR's opinion, which I very much value. And if it so bothers me, then staying the same will not change anything. As a compromise then ToR, I suggest to you this. If you see me being that which you do not like, then first ascertain that those who I am being like towards do not like it, (even though those whom I'm doing it to will surely say something or ignore me on their own accord). But still I will change if neccesary.

    PS. Jane Bennet says the same story about me ToR. I recall some irony in that, perhaps. :?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Perhaps we'd better all don newbie shades and be done with this huggy-yukky session hm?
    Yes I agree, lets move on .
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition

    A final note to you ToR. Most of what you said about me in my post is basically what you are doing to me now.
    .
    are you nuts??

    You ASKED for us to express an opinion on YOU, this is the topic of the thread.

    Now you dare accuse me of flaming you for answering your thread question?



    You even dare to suggest reporting me for flaming you, when all I did was answer the thread question?

    I Pm'd you with my thoughts on your posting style - I did not FLAME you. You made a public thread ASKING for an opinion, so I made another PUBLIC one as YOU REQUESTED.

    This for the record is the pm I sent you:

    "You are starting to remind me of jeremywfprsrqsfqt

    You are acting like forum police 'telling posters off' for not posting to your liking. It doesn't read very well, especially when you are not a moderator. May I politely suggest you ease off?"


    There is NOTHING abusive or harrassing about this pm.


    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    But what I do to other people is none of your concern, even if you are trying to be helpful (see if others felt that about my posts, they'd say something).

    .
    According to your first post, NUMEROUS members made public and private remarks. Now you are trying to allege I am the only one?

    My reply is not a flame it is 100% in keeping with the topic. The problem here is that you expected to get some sort of 'yes we think you are wonderful' response.

    Maybe next time eh.
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition

    A final note to you ToR. Most of what you said about me in my post is basically what you are doing to me now.
    .
    are you nuts??

    You ASKED for us to express an opinion on YOU, this is the topic of the thread.

    Now you dare accuse me of flaming you for answering your thread question?

    That is why it is a final note, in an already post script paragraph ToR. Come on.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith

    Two, you were extremely sensitive to criticism of any kind, and this sensitivity combined with the large amount of reactionary things you posted just made for a bad combination. In other words, you could dish it out but you couldn't take it.

    Unfortunately, I think your second problem is continuing. You are still very sensitive about what other people think of you. You like discussing your high post count and you like policing the forum, but here you are again, unhappy that some people still don't like what you do. You quote that old adage of "you can only please some people some of the time," but you do not take it to heart.

    Here is what I think. If you're happy talking about your post count, then do it. If you're happy policing the forum, then do it. If a couple people give you shit for it in a way that is not meant to be constructive criticism, then ignore them and move on. If many members of this forum that is so dear to you feel that your behavior is detrimental to this place, then take heed and adjust your behavior. Then, move on. Don't obsess over it. Don't worry about it. Don't make long drawn out posts talking about it, and STILL getting upset over the responses to it. If you're going to dish it out, then have the decency to sit still and take it.

    And then, move on. No matter how important this place may be to you it is still just an online discussion forum. Make sure you have the proper perspective on this and its relationship to your real life.
    VERY VERY well said.

    Chaotic

    I rest my case and will say no more on the matter.
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  19. #18  
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    You know what ToR, I've hear enough positive feedback from many members of this forum both PM and public. I am grateful for their comments and am trying to adopt their opinions into my behaviour here. But I am not going to sit here and waste my evening pressing the refresh button ToR. You started ranting and flaming me before this thread even started. I wasn't even asking your opinion, we all seem to know what your opinion of me is now anyway. I'd gotten it in many other areas that were off topic when you posted.

    You can keep editing your posts and colouring peoples posts any colour of the spectrum you like to get at me, which I can tell is your objective. Think what you want ToR. Any of you can think what you like, I'm not going to stop you and am very grateful for respecting me and my style, and thank you for your posts. ToR seems to be the one with the problem. I only asked everyone because I was concerned why she thought of me the way she did. But seeing as everyone else has told me what they think and I am happy with what they say, what with your behaviour ToR I don't think I need to listen to you anymore. I am very fond of a great many of you, and I don't have to sit here and take this crap from you ToR. Now if you don't mind. I'm off to watch the Caramelldansen video. (AGAIN).

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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    You know what ToR, I've hear enough positive feedback from many members of this forum both PM and public. I am grateful for their comments and am trying to adopt their opinions into my behaviour here. But I am not going to sit here and waste my evening pressing the refresh button ToR. You started ranting and flaming me before this thread even started.
    My pm to you was this:

    "You are starting to remind me of jeremywfprsrqsfqt

    You are acting like forum police 'telling posters off' for not posting to your liking. It doesn't read very well, especially when you are not a moderator. May I politely suggest you ease off? "


    It is very polite

    You asked me to elaborate and provide examples in pm - so I did

    You advised me you were policing the forum to 'get noticed' because you want to be a moderator

    I told you if that happened I would most likely walk as you are not in my opinion moderator material.

    Then you began this thread claiming NUMEROUS people had contacted you:

    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition

    I have had numerous posts and PM's by numerous people naming me the following (at least): sarcastic, over bearing, not suiting myself to others etc. T
    The complaint I made to you was re 'policing'

    I never said any of the things you mentioned here. What you did not mention here was 'policing'. Thus there was no reason for me to even assume I triggered your thread.


    Now you are alleging I am the only one and trying to insinuate I said more than I did in pm. This is dishonest and as such you have now lost all my respect.

    I am happy to publish the entire content of the conversation.

    You have a made a storm out of a tea cup. Congratulations.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    You advised me you were policing the forum to 'get noticed' because you want to be a moderator
    this confirms my prejudice that people who put their name forward for the job of moderator (or for any position of responsibility, for that matter) should on no account be given the job
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    this confirms my prejudice that people who put their name forward for the job of moderator (or for any position of responsibility, for that matter) should on no account be given the job
    Maybe that's why they posted that "new moderators wanted" thread - so they could weed out the unsuited candidates.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    I am happy to publish the entire content of the conversation.
    She said, he said.

    Who's down more pegs now? I've lost count.
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  24. #23  
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    ToR, Chaotic. You know what it means when a man and a woman fights :wink:

    Oh no I didn't! :P
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    ToR, Chaotic. You know what it means when a man and a woman fights :wink:

    Oh no I didn't! :P
    It means they're married?
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  26. #25  
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    Thank you for the feedback again, it is much appreciated. If I am unsuited I'm sure this thread would have proved that or not. I am going to be myself now, (which won't be any different).
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    Thank you for the feedback again, it is much appreciated. If I am unsuited I'm sure this thread would have proved that or not. I am going to be myself now, (which won't be any different).
    It did.

    1. You have contradicted and denied aspects of your own posts in this thread.

    2. You have alleged things took place in pm which did not.

    3. Everything Paralith said in her last post to you.

    Not suitable moderator material.

    Meanwhile I now have you on ignore so aside from reviewing this thread, I won't be annoyed by your 'pretending to be a moderator' act any further.
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumFluff
    It means they're married?
    Exacly!
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  29. #28  
    Forum Ph.D.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by BumFluff
    It means they're married?
    Exacly!
    What utter cockybullpoop!

    Fighting and arguing is a normal part of human nature, between all the sexes.

    In fact it's mostly a healthy activity and natural rhythm in life which separates in order to unite.

    How often have people had arguments only to discover afterwards that they have to come to know each other better and like each other more?
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  30. #29  
    Time Lord
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    You don't get it Absum! . Chaos boy "accidentally" hits 'Tivity girl with spitball, then Tivity flounces "I don't notice you." Classic script.

    Oops. I get the feeling Theoryofrelativity ...won't be annoyed... by Pong either. :?
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    You don't get it Absum! . Chaos boy "accidentally" hits 'Tivity girl with spitball, then Tivity flounces "I don't notice you." Classic script.

    Oops. I get the feeling Theoryofrelativity ...won't be annoyed... by Pong either. :?
    It's all in your head

    I answered the thread question and responded to the subsequent accusations nothing more - run of the mill forum stuff, which can be seen in every thread in every forum.

    The fact you want to see more says more about you than me.
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by BumFluff
    It means they're married?
    Exacly!
    What utter cockybullpoop!

    Fighting and arguing is a normal part of human nature, between all the sexes.

    In fact it's mostly a healthy activity and natural rhythm in life which separates in order to unite.

    How often have people had arguments only to discover afterwards that they have to come to know each other better and like each other more?
    Well said, though in this case it has had the opposite effect. I despise lies and attempts to deceive above all things.
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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  33. #32  
    Time Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    The fact you want to see more says more about you than me.
    Touché.
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  34. #33  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    ... run of the mill forum stuff, which can be seen in every thread in every forum.
    i should hope not ...
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  35. #34  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    I heard Philosophorum has no running mills.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    ... run of the mill forum stuff, which can be seen in every thread in every forum.
    i should hope not ...
    You don't see disagreement in every thread?

    Show me the thread where everyone is in agreement, just one will do
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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  37. #36  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard spuriousmonkey's Avatar
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    I would like to believe that EVERY thread has a phase where everybody agrees.

    That usually coincides with the creation of a new topic; soon to be lost after the first reply.
    "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

    - Arnaud Amalric

    http://spuriousforums.com/index.php
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  38. #37  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    You don't see disagreement in every thread?

    Show me the thread where everyone is in agreement, just one will do
    i wasn't commenting on disagreement and arguing your case -as you said any forum worth its salt should have that - it's just that i hope the argument can remain civilised without resorting to fighting and accusing
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoryofrelativity
    You don't see disagreement in every thread?

    Show me the thread where everyone is in agreement, just one will do
    i wasn't commenting on disagreement and arguing your case -as you said any forum worth its salt should have that - it's just that i hope the argument can remain civilised without resorting to fighting and accusing
    hmmm there must as you say be one......somewhere.........not far.......perhaps in the religious forum........... 8)
    'Time is the space between birth and death' by me.
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