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Thread: Is Man Made Global Cooling Possible

  1. #1 Is Man Made Global Cooling Possible 
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Not much out there but I did find this….

    https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...earths-climate

    Obvious question for me is: If we can then why aren’t we doing it and if we are then why aren’t we ramping it up?

    If situation was opposite and we were causing global cooling then could we reverse it? Judging by what’s supposedly happening, this should be no problem.

    My last question is: have we inadvertently reversed a global cooling trend?

    Whoops forgot this : with hole in the Ozone layer repair, has it reduced global warming effect? Should we get credit for causing and then fixing? If hole continues to close even more what happens with respect to global warming?


    Last edited by zinjanthropos; November 1st, 2021 at 10:56 AM.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  3. #2  
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    We not doing it because it is hard to do in a controlled way.If we nuke a few volcanoes I expect that we could cause a few years of cooling but does that sound intelligent?

    Again we might engineer a few pandemics and carbon emissions might fall.

    We are lucky that the cure for global warming/climate change is actually a cure that is better than the disease.

    A green economy is one I have wished for all my life as a matter of choice.

    And now that choice has been taken from us.

    All we need now is some intelligence .We will see but I am despondent.


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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post

    All we need now is some intelligence .We will see but I am despondent.
    Cheer up Bud. Think of 65 mya and two of our common ancestors are at the edge of the asteroid death zone and one says to the other, ‘well, things aren’t looking too good right now”. Then his partner says, well, you never know, let’s hope that in the distant future one our descendants will be saying the same thing” . You’re that guy right now. Do we have another 65my? Probably not but we can hope.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post

    All we need now is some intelligence .We will see but I am despondent.
    Cheer up Bud. Think of 65 mya and two of our common ancestors are at the edge of the asteroid death zone and one says to the other, ‘well, things aren’t looking too good right now”. Then his partner says, well, you never know, let’s hope that in the distant future one our descendants will be saying the same thing” . You’re that guy right now. Do we have another 65my? Probably not but we can hope.
    I am thinking of the next generation and what they will think of us when we had the tools in hand to give them a better send off.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post

    All we need now is some intelligence .We will see but I am despondent.
    Cheer up Bud. Think of 65 mya and two of our common ancestors are at the edge of the asteroid death zone and one says to the other, ‘well, things aren’t looking too good right now”. Then his partner says, well, you never know, let’s hope that in the distant future one our descendants will be saying the same thing” . You’re that guy right now. Do we have another 65my? Probably not but we can hope.
    I am thinking of the next generation and what they will think of us when we had the tools in hand to give them a better send off.
    Least of our worries. Future generations will be given every opportunity to screw things up also. Not going to pretend that by default they’ll be better than previous generations. The two generations before me each fought world wars and even dropped A bombs but I don’t hold a grudge. I can’t change it. I don’t want next gen to just harp about us instead of getting down to the task at hand.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    You are happy for us to leave a planet with living conditions less favourable to good and pleasant (living to you and your neighbours' children and grandchildren?(if there was something you could have done about it)
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    You are happy for us to leave a planet with living conditions less favourable to good and pleasant (living to you and your neighbours' children and grandchildren?(if there was something you could have done about it)
    No reason to be happy about it. I never intentionally meant to harm anyone including grand kids. I’m sure my parents wanted best for us also. Some things don’t work out but I’m not blaming anyone, especially myself. I did what I thought was right. That’s life. Next generations will have to adapt to what they inherited just like we did.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Think of 65 mya and two of our common ancestors are at the edge of the asteroid death zone and one says to the other, ‘well, things aren’t looking too good right now”. Then his partner says, well, you never know, let’s hope that in the distant future one our descendants will be saying the same thing” . You’re that guy right now. Do we have another 65my? Probably not but we can hope.
    Periodic mass extinctions are well known to occur on our planet*. They average about one every 30 million years or so, most caused by high velocity impacts.

    Since the most recent appears to be the one ca. 65 mya, it seems we are overdue. Assuming we cannot deflect the threat, there will be no reason to worry about all the ills humans are inflicting on the planet.

    Mother Nature will take care of all that, and leave the planet finally free of the human infestation.



    * https://www.science.gov/topicpages/p...ss+extinctions
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post

    Mother Nature will take care of all that, and leave the planet finally free of the human infestation.
    I wouldn’t consider the dinos an infestation. I think it magnificent that they reigned so long. Without that asteroid we’re probably not here to talk about it.
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  11. #10  
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    It's been suggested that aerosols might do the trick by reflecting sunlight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    It's been suggested that aerosols might do the trick by reflecting sunlight.
    I thought aerosols were the main reason a hole in ozone developed.

    What would happen if the little blue dot Earth was a little white dot? Like white plants, white oceans….something tells me that’s a bad idea

    Edit: Should have asked….can or does colour/lack of colour influence climate?
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; November 2nd, 2021 at 07:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I thought aerosols were the main reason a hole in ozone developed.

    Aerosols from spray cans etc. using chlorofluorocarbons as a propellant resulted in ozone depletion. The aerosols only delivered those chemicals to the atmosphere.

    Spray cans produced liquid aerosols which did not last very long. Refrigeration units provided a large amount of chlorofluorocarbons as well.

    Aerosols which might decrease warming would have to persist for extended periods, and likely be solids.


    "Chlorofluorocarbons and Ozone Depletion"

    https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/e...fcs-ozone.html


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosol
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  14. #13  
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    Further possibilities if we had the technology would be giant umbrellas and space robots.

    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...global-warming

    As a very desperate last resort we could try to send a galactic SOS to any advanced civilisations out there by using our AI.
    In return for their help we'd probably have to join the Galactic Union, a sort of EU but with less bureaucracy, one would hope.
    Even so, among others Stephen Hawking and Isaac Asimov warned against this as their intentions might not be peaceful.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Further possibilities if we had the technology would be giant umbrellas and space robots.

    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...global-warming

    As a very desperate last resort we could try to send a galactic SOS to any advanced civilisations out there by using our AI.
    In return for their help we'd probably have to join the Galactic Union, a sort of EU but with less bureaucracy, one would hope.
    Even so, among others Stephen Hawking and Isaac Asimov warned against this as their intentions might not be peaceful.
    Fake clouds maybe? Don't know how we'd get them to stay up there. Don't know if we'd have to shade the entire Earth with them, just let them float around. Big enough to appear on radar as to not cause airline crash or provoke an attack.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Not much out there but I did find this….

    https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...earths-climate

    Obvious question for me is: If we can then why aren’t we doing it and if we are then why aren’t we ramping it up?

    If situation was opposite and we were causing global cooling then could we reverse it? Judging by what’s supposedly happening, this should be no problem.

    My last question is: have we inadvertently reversed a global cooling trend?

    Whoops forgot this : with hole in the Ozone layer repair, has it reduced global warming effect? Should we get credit for causing and then fixing? If hole continues to close even more what happens with respect to global warming?
    From the link -
    Whereas aerosols linger in the atmosphere from days to a few weeks, heat-trapping gases that we add to the atmosphere linger from decades to centuries.
    This is very significant - it means we cannot substitute aerosols for emissions reductions; the aerosols (not CFC's, but sulphates mostly) will require constant renewal to keep working whereas emissions accumulate.

    Have we reversed a global cooling trend?
    It does appear that we have reversed slow cooling but not so clear whether that would persist the expected 10's of thousands of years until the next (natural) glacial minimum -



    If situation was opposite and we were causing global cooling then could we reverse it?
    If we were not using fossil fuels at large scale (or else it were moot) we could burn lots of them - even burn them in place, eg as coal seam fires, but with increased aerosols initially masking the longer term warming, perhaps even cooling until warming accumulates enough, with harms like acid rain mixed in - the same aerosols/cooling vs GHG's/warming problem in a different context.

    The consequences are going to be a lot more complex than just preventing cooling in the near term - we would still need a comprehensive comprehension of climate processes and the ability to model and predict the overall benefits and risks. And still have to have the capacity to incorporate that knowledge into effective policy.
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  17. #16  
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    Blocking significant amounts of solar radiation would likely have undesirable consequences, like decreasing plant growth, including oceanic forms. The fall off in plant growth could have a negative feedback on anything living off them, which is just about everything, one way or another, and decrease the CO2 sink as well.

    Contacting aliens for help might take too long. Any SOS traveling at the paltry speed of light might take many decades or longer just to get there. This is time we do not have. And as noted, they might not be so nice. They might even be looking for an SOS as a prime place to invade as it indicates a world in trouble. Seems we have enough trouble without inviting a bunch of aliens to give us some more.

    Perhaps some of the sun gods, long worshiped by many cultures, are real and could play a role. Maybe we have been neglecting them for too long, and this is our payback. Lots of sun gods, ox. Got any in mind that might be persuaded with the right offerings and chants?!

    It seems that the solution must lie in what we are doing to the atmosphere, since this is where all the problems result. Either we decrease output of GHGs (not going to happen), or build mechanisms to remove them on a large scale. There do not seem to be any real alternatives.
    Last edited by Double Helix; November 2nd, 2021 at 08:22 PM.
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  18. #17  
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    They might even be looking for an SOS as a prime place to invade as it indicates a world in trouble.
    Dying of GW or at the hands of aliens is pretty much the same thing. If it's as dire and hopeless as people say then it can't hurt to contact ET, not that i think it has a snowball's chance in Hell of ever getting to an ET.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Dying of GW or at the hands of aliens is pretty much the same thing.
    While people are already dying of GW, it is not certain that all will. It seems that many will likely perish for various reasons, and starvation due to the decline in food production is likely to be the primary cause. It would seem that some of the 7.7 billion currently infesting the planet will survive, but what that would be like is anybody's guess.

    And aliens would not necessarily wipe us out. Slavery has been known since the dawn of recorded history, and still exists in some form or another. Aliens might not be any different in this regard. In any case, your position that either fate would be similar is a reasonable conclusion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Dying of GW or at the hands of aliens is pretty much the same thing.
    While people are already dying of GW, it is not certain that all will. It seems that many will likely perish for various reasons, and starvation due to the decline in food production is likely to be the primary cause. It would seem that some of the 7.7 billion currently infesting the planet will survive, but what that would be like is anybody's guess.

    And aliens would not necessarily wipe us out. Slavery has been known since the dawn of recorded history, and still exists in some form or another. Aliens might not be any different in this regard. In any case, your position that either fate would be similar is a reasonable conclusion.
    Not expecting humanity to roll over and die, I expect them to adapt or die. Sure some will succumb but in the end the human race may come back stronger than ever.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Contacting aliens for help might take too long.
    Unless they have a branch office nearby.

    Lots of sun gods, ox. Got any in mind that might be persuaded with the right offerings and chants?!
    As I worship the goddess Zorka, a solar deity who incarnated on December 25th, I have a list prayers from Chapter 2 of the Book of Zorka.
    The prayers are similar to those found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, so in place of Ra you can substitute Zorka.

    Btw, the creation story in Chapter 1 details the birth of the earth as a comet from the planet Uranus, 6000 years ago.
    This explains why Uranus is tilted on its side. It was in a collision with a rogue planet.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Not expecting humanity to roll over and die, I expect them to adapt or die. Sure some will succumb but in the end the human race may come back stronger than ever.
    It is more than likely that the human race will survive in some capacity. Just greatly reduced in numbers and in a very different world. Adaptation in this case will need to involve technical aspects rather than evolutionary as there seems little time for the latter. It would be interesting to see how that plays out.

    They may be living in glass domes in smaller cities, where the air can be controlled. Food production would likely limit the number of survivors, as the world's capacity for its production is already declining.

    One can only wonder what such a civilization would be like, and would they learn from past mistakes. Could make a good sci-fi story!


    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Unless they have a branch office nearby.
    Perhaps the alien's branch office is in Uranus, and Zorka is their gift to the solar system.

    The date of December 25th seems to have been used by some other religion, demonstrating yet another component of religious evolution.

    Maybe we should send a space probe to Uranus to investigate. A goddess sounds much more interesting than any god!
    Last edited by Double Helix; November 4th, 2021 at 11:16 AM.
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  23. #22  
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post

    Thought about this concept of pushing the planet into an outer orbit, then realized how impossible it would be for puny humans to accomplish such a feat.

    The concept also does not take into account the decrease in critical light intensity for photosynthetic and PV activities. You might manage the PVs, but the plant life will suffer, unless you GMOed some super planets, and algae, etc.. Plant activity relies directly on availability of 400-700 nm wavelengths. If the energy of these drop off with more distant orbits, so will current photosynthetic activity, with subsequent reduction in plant growth
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post

    Thought about this concept of pushing the planet into an outer orbit, then realized how impossible it would be for puny humans to accomplish such a feat.
    Ya, that’s a little hard to visualize. However here’s another one. We’re living in a hamster cage. Some folks consider the Zoo Hypothesis legitimate. The Earth is a zoo under the watchful eye of aliens, and we’re one of the attractions. Hamster cage is my idea, only because when my kids were young they went through a few. One of the conditions parents lay out for kids wanting a hamster is yes, you can have one as long as you keep the cage clean. Works for a couple weeks then parents take over as kids lose interest in that chore.

    See what I’m getting at? Some alien kid has neglected the agreement and since we’re messy like a caged hamster our environment becomes a little unhealthy. So until this alien kid’s parents notice, it’s going to get messier. Unless something has happened to our zookeepers and we need to escape or fix on our own.

    My attempt at satirical humour. Maybe I should just pray that God shows up to save us all

    Edit: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...gow-cop26.html
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; November 5th, 2021 at 07:19 AM.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Perhaps the alien's branch office is in Uranus, and Zorka is their gift to the solar system.
    Now you're being silly.

    The date of December 25th seems to have been used by some other religion, demonstrating yet another component of religious evolution.
    So many sun gods of antiquity and all born on the same day, 3 days and 3 nights after the winter solstice when the sun is slain by Satan but miraculously rises again in the sky.

    Zin: Christian evangelists tell me that prayer works, so asking for God's intervention in global warming is not a bad idea, although you would think that God already knows.
    I agree with them that prayer does work.
    If the prayer is reasonable then I calculate it could work about 5% of the time.
    If it doesn't work then the evangelist will simply say it was a NO from God.
    That's an example why you can't win any argument with these guys.
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  27. #26  
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    If the prayer is reasonable then I calculate it could work about 5% of the time.

    Global cooling sounds like a reasonable request but winning football match probably more important.
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; November 5th, 2021 at 02:03 PM.
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