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Thread: Do we need to ban plug-in hybrids?

  1. #1 Do we need to ban plug-in hybrids? 
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    All New California Cars, Trucks Must Be Zero-Emission By 2035, Newsom Announces In Executive Order.
    All New California Cars, Trucks Must Be Zero-Emission By 2035, Newsom Announces In Executive Order - capradio.org

    Do we really need to ban even plug-in hybrids which are capable to run 80-90% of the total time on batteries and 10-20% on a biofuel (or fossil fuels)? Aren't all-electric vehicles too expensive and inconvenient to be mandatory?


    Last edited by Stanley514; November 25th, 2020 at 10:20 AM.
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    It is not a ban. New cars need to be electric by 2035. I have no doubt that in 15 years there will be plenty of great electric cars. As a side note I worked for 30 years making catalytic converters for cars and trucks. I guess bye-bye to that industry. But I guess the buggy whip industry had its hay day too...


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    Some sources claim, however, that plug-in hybrids aren't going to be banned.
    The executive order requires all new passenger vehicles sold in California to be zero-emission, which includes battery-powered electric cars, vehicles that run on hydrogen fuel cells, and plug-in hybrids that still use some gasoline or diesel in addition to electricity.
    California To Ban New Gas-Powered Cars By 2035 (forbes.com)

    Why do they call plug-in hybrids "zero-emission" in this case?
    Last edited by Stanley514; November 27th, 2020 at 10:06 AM.
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    Do you think there are reasons to bun non-hybrid cars which run on biofuel or methane/propane?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Do you think there are reasons to bun non-hybrid cars which run on biofuel or methane/propane?
    Yes, the reason would be CO2 emissions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Origin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Do you think there are reasons to bun non-hybrid cars which run on biofuel or methane/propane?
    Yes, the reason would be CO2 emissions.
    But in the case of biofuel they are just local, not global.
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  8. #7  
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    Sounds like an uncompromising policy that, on examination, actually includes some compromises.

    I think California is betting with good odds that BEV growth will make them the most built new vehicles well before 2035. Just one more halving of battery costs and/or doubling of battery energy density will make EV's unstoppable - and Li-Ion halved in cost three times over during just the past decade. There is more and better positioned battery R&D going on now than I imagined possible even a decade ago and will almost certainly deliver results; everyone wants it, from tech device and cordless tool makers to vehicle and RE equipment manufacturers as well as agencies of governments that are committed to zero emissions, or just committed to ongoing open ended research.

    The next iteration of best possible batteries will make the inventors rich beyond imagination and I doubt we will have to wait until 2035 for them.

    Hybrids, like H2, look unable to compete with the Battery Electric format and will fade from general use; leaving provisions for them in the legislation is a compromise that probably won't matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    Sounds like an uncompromising policy that, on examination, actually includes some compromises.
    Hybrids, like H2, look unable to compete with the Battery Electric format and will fade from general use; leaving provisions for them in the legislation is a compromise that probably won't matter.
    But perhaps, BEV's will remain in a wide use only until cheap ways of biofuel production from algae will be invented?
    Last edited by Stanley514; May 9th, 2021 at 09:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    Sounds like an uncompromising policy that, on examination, actually includes some compromises.
    Hybrids, like H2, look unable to compete with the Battery Electric format and will fade from general use; leaving provisions for them in the legislation is a compromise that probably won't matter.
    But perhaps, BEV's will remain in a wide use only until cheap ways of biofuel production from algae will be invented?
    It seems much more likely better batteries will be invented - I think approaching a near certainty given developments already in the pipeline and the growing scale of R&D.

    Liquid fuel from algae just hasn't been working out. Investors are not taking it up. Major oil companies are not, nor are vehicle makers. Even government programs have wound down, like it is a dead end.

    BEV complements growing renewable energy like solar and wind and slot easily into existing electricity grids. The grid upgrades for EV dominance complement the upgrades for high RE. Major global vehicle makers are already firmly committed to BEV and look unlikely to turn around and bet on algae biofuel.
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  11. #10  
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    [QUOTE=Ken Fabos;632325]
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Liquid fuel from algae just hasn't been working out. Investors are not taking it up. Major oil companies are not, nor are vehicle makers. Even government programs have wound down, like it is a dead end.
    That's strange. In some countries like Brazil even ethanol fuel seems to be competitive on the market without any subsidies. Advanced biofuels suppose to be even more so. The batteries almost by definition can never beat biofuel by the price and convenience. If they are electrically charged you can never charge them as fast as with a liquid fuel.
    Bill Gates: How we'll move around in a clean, green future | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)
    If you are going to use solar energy to charge BEVs, it could be hardly more energy efficient than biofuel.
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    I don't see how biofuels will be more energy efficient than EV's.

    The range and charge time anxieties look likely to fade. Even for long range road freight there are options - eg this Australian start-up that looks able to do truck battery swaps that will take around 3 minutes, for 400-600km range. It sacrifices longer range for less battery payload and fast swaps. It looks likely to reduce overall running costs, with electricity much cheaper and more energy efficient than diesel and greatly reduced maintenance costs. I expect they will find options to take advantage of having a lot of batteries sitting connected to the electricity grid at swap stations - reduced rates to allow grid management to vary charge rates and options to sell stored power back to the grid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    battery swaps that will take around 3 minutes, for 400-600km range.
    I think battery swapping is too bulky, expensive and accident sensitive to be ever fully implemented. The reasons:
    1) All the car manufacturers in the World will first need come to the agreement on the batteries size and form standardization. To make every battery easily fit in every car of the according size. Even if it will succeed, there still have to be different (6-10) battery sizes readily available on each station for vehicles of different sizes. Batteries of different sizes for motorcycles, microcars, sedans, SUVs, pickups, minivans, buses, trucks, long-haul trailers, etc. And all this different types should be always present at each and every station in sufficient quantity. Even in every remote village. Imagine a bus or a tractor driver who arrives on some remote station just to discover that no suitable type of batteries for swapping are available.
    2) The size and cost of every station should be really huge comparatively to the gas station. The energy density of batteries is low comparatively to gas + complicated automated system + space between the batteries of different sizes.
    3) Additional service personal and charges for mechanical systems service and repair, etc.
    4) 400-600 km range is still much lower to what biofuel allows to do and what such problems are needed for?
    5) If some accident will break battery delivery system it will lead to a local disaster. Drivers will gather on the swapping station in numbers and will honk loudly.
    Last edited by Stanley514; June 6th, 2021 at 07:33 PM.
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    What do you think about using hydrogen as a motor fuel? I don't understand the very sense of it. If it is all about zero emissions at the global level, then electricity and/or biofuels satisfy to the same criteria. And they are cheaper and more convenient than hydrogen.
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