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Thread: Conflicting interest between wind power and golf resort

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    That may be courses of old, but not new and not any that I play..they were sculpted to fit the land. Pesticides *L* do you have ANY clue how not ok that is at all at ANY golf course? You need to do some research on what most golf courses really do to maintain ...lime for fertilizer, is natural.......and no pesticides at any course that I play.
    Yes, but you fail to recognise that the courses themselves are not natural. Usually there will have been quite a bit of clearing of vegetation. In desert or arid areas, vegetation is added, which will alter the natural habitat of that area. I am sure you understand that echo systems are very delicate and sensitive. If you clear trees and shrubs and plant grass.. This is not natural. It is an added burden on that echo system. When you clear trees and low lying plants and plant grass you are dramatically altering the environment and destroying the native habitat of the local and native wild life. Certainly, you can say you have seen local wild life walking across the course, for example, but that proves even more that they are no longer in their natural environment when they are wondering across those courses. Their habitat in those areas no longer exist. Instead what they get is well tended grass and sand bunkers. Even the use of things like lime, while lime fertilisers are natural. Adding it to the grass to fertilise it is not natural to that area.

    When you strip trees away, it does and will affect the local water table.

    When you build golf courses on usually arid or desert areas, you are completely transforming that local environment. You are completely altering the local eco system. Someone linked an image or a google map to a golf course in Hawaii which is on one such arid area of land. Any insects and birds and reptiles that relied on those insects, for example, think of the impact it has had on them when you have large swathes of arid desert land transformed into lush and green golf courses.

    Saying it is all natural or the fertilisers used are natural. A desert area with a giant golf course is not natural. Just because it is near the ocean does not make it a Links course.
    I understand what you are saying, and please understand, I am not being disrespectful.....

    However, is a house built there or ANYWHERE ELSE any less environmentally not eco-sensitive.
    If I plant a rose bush in my garden, is that ignoring they eco-system, or have a vegetable garden?

    I agree that we need to take care of Mother Earth, of course, but a golf course is no worse than a housing development, a hotel, or a UNIVERSITY for that matter when it comes to changing the ecological foundation of an area!

    All building should be done with respect to the environment, but ALL building, even agriculture changes the ecosystem of any area it was developed on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    No one is suggesting that golf courses are 'natural'. So what?
    Nothing much in our human influenced environment can be called 'natural'. In fact, I would find it hard to find any environment anywhere on the entire planet that has not been influenced by human activity. Golf courses are a tiny, tiny part of the land area of the countries we live in. The impact of those few golf courses on the total ecology is next to zero. Why are people getting their knickers in a twist about such a miniscule effect?
    They are not actually so small in some countries, nor do they take up such little space. Looking at Hawaii for example, it isn't that big. It is made up of small individual islands. Yet it has more than 70 golf courses. I am not sure if they also include the private courses which are owned and managed by hotels and resorts. Then when you take into account the land area required for golf courses, they are no longer really that tiny in relation to the areas we live in. And the ecological impact can no longer be deemed to be next to zero. Quite the contrary.




    That is not next to zero impact on the local ecology.
    Hotel courses, are generally not private.

    I know of two golf courses that are "private". In Hawai'i.

    They also provide JOBS for the people who LIVE THERE...who would have to MOVE if they didn't have employment.

    There are MANY factors to consider!
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    Do you think the natives burning down Amazonian rain forest to create clearings to grow crops should be respected for their right to earn a living?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Even so. Creating a golf course is not some great and terrible sin against the environment. If you are interested in 'saving the ecology' there are far more important things to do than worry about golf courses.
    It's not a one-or-the-other effort. I will not set aside working to improve one area of environmental impact simply because there is another area of greater impact. The lesser do not get a free pass due to the sins of the greater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Even so. Creating a golf course is not some great and terrible sin against the environment. If you are interested in 'saving the ecology' there are far more important things to do than worry about golf courses.
    It's not a one-or-the-other effort. I will not set aside working to improve one area of environmental impact simply because there is another area of greater impact. The lesser do not get a free pass due to the sins of the greater.
    The point is people like to play golf, so what are you going to do? You can't do anything about golf courses being built. So what options do you have to make the situation better without being unrealistic about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    The point is people like to play golf, so what are you going to do? You can't do anything about golf courses being built. So what options do you have to make the situation better without being unrealistic about it?
    Trot lines, lawn darts, fox hunting with hounds, punt gun duck hunting, blowing up fishing hole with M80s than enjoying the harvest of stunned fish, spotting or driving deer....all great fun, and now banned in most places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Do you think the natives burning down Amazonian rain forest to create clearings to grow crops should be respected for their right to earn a living?
    Only if they're later converted to putt-putt courses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Do you think the natives burning down Amazonian rain forest to create clearings to grow crops should be respected for their right to earn a living?
    yes

    however
    when I visited in Ecuador, they weren't burning, just cutting/slashing and planting(broadcasting seeds)
    corn is subsidized
    In the lower amazon basin over 10 centuries ago, the natives made terra preta soils which are still productive.
    The amazon seems to have gotten wetter with the little ice age and stays wetter still, then, add in the population declining with "old world" diseases, and the locals are still less than 10% of their populations circa 1300ad. There is some dialogue that with global warming, the amazon basin may have a slightly drier climate in the future, changing the nature of the soils.

    that being said
    Brazil has an ongoing problem with people trying to plant innapropriate crops on rainforest soils.
    Good for a couple/few years only.
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    I can recommend a good optometrist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Do you think the natives burning down Amazonian rain forest to create clearings to grow crops should be respected for their right to earn a living?
    The idea is, human beings always gravitate toward freedom. At any cost. Respect them? No, for reasons selfishly aligned at protecting the esistence of the area outside their own jurisdiction, the rainforest. Stop them some way? War? Kill them? Pay them to stop? None ought to be options, if one adheres to the belief that humanity is already well on the road in decline. jocular
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    This is another one of those examples where people can get a bit silly. Amazon natives, living a traditional lifestyle, have little impact on their environment. It is those who extract logs and create ranch lands from rain forest who do the vast bulk of the damage.

    So, yes. Let the traditional natives live their lives without us interfering except where we are helping them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    This is another one of those examples where people can get a bit silly. Amazon natives, living a traditional lifestyle, have little impact on their environment. It is those who extract logs and create ranch lands from rain forest who do the vast bulk of the damage.

    So, yes. Let the traditional natives live their lives without us interfering except where we are helping them.
    Addressed to me, or John Galt? HE mentioned natives, I did not. Don't much matter to me WHO is doing the rainforest in, but rather WHAT should be done to/for them to stop it. Or SHOULD we stop it? jocular
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    No need to feel sensitive, jocular. Another of my general comments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    This is another one of those examples where people can get a bit silly. Amazon natives, living a traditional lifestyle, have little impact on their environment. It is those who extract logs and create ranch lands from rain forest who do the vast bulk of the damage.

    So, yes. Let the traditional natives live their lives without us interfering except where we are helping them.
    There will always be people who will take advantage w/o conscious, in every aspect of life and nature for personal gain only. You stop one and another will appear.

    Mother Nature, has constantly adapted to mankind since the beginning of "creation" not meant in the religious sense. Always changing and always will be changing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Even so. Creating a golf course is not some great and terrible sin against the environment. If you are interested in 'saving the ecology' there are far more important things to do than worry about golf courses.
    It's not a one-or-the-other effort. I will not set aside working to improve one area of environmental impact simply because there is another area of greater impact. The lesser do not get a free pass due to the sins of the greater.
    The point is people like to play golf, so what are you going to do? You can't do anything about golf courses being built. So what options do you have to make the situation better without being unrealistic about it?
    Unsurprisingly, there are realistic solutions to environmental impacts.

    Native vegetation, maintaining natural ecology in hydrologically important areas, using electric lawn care machines instead of gas-powered, not using fertilizers or pesticides, constructing golf courses in sites which reduce impact...the list could go on forever. Nowhere have I suggested anything unrealistic like a worldwide ban on golfing. The ONLY point I'm trying to make is that just because a place contains some kind of vegetation does NOT mean it is environmentally responsible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Mother Nature, has constantly adapted to mankind since the beginning of "creation" not meant in the religious sense. Always changing and always will be changing.
    The problem is that our tendency to impact nature has exceeded nature's ability to compensate.

    EDIT: Actually, that isn't technically true. Nature can easily compensate, but it is in ways which will prove ultimately destructive to the current inhabitants of this planet. I always chuckled when people said we were destroying the Earth. The Earth will be around for a very long time to come, but she may give us an eviction notice if we don't clean up our act.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I always chuckled when people said we were destroying the Earth. The Earth will be around for a very long time to come, but she may give us an eviction notice if we don't clean up our act.
    There are often to be seen bumper stickers declaring "Save the Planet". I always am reminded of what you say above: When we all are gone, the planet will save itself quite efficaciously. jocular
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    Getting back on topic, I think the wind generators make a cool background for golfers.

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    In response to the OP. I say let Trump have his whiney fit. Human beings need power to live normal lives these days and the cleaner the source the better. The general population lives just fine without a golf resort. There are plenty of other things that can be built there that would provide jobs and perhaps even something that can benefit those that are not the snobby rich who are a minority in any culture. The needs of the many out weigh the "needs" of the few.

    Besides wind farms are pretty. I think they should paint spirally designs on the blades though so they create an optical illusion when they are turning lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I can recommend a good optometrist.
    Oddly enough, I feel that you probably meant something when you posted this.
    Exactly what that was, however, remains elusive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Mother Nature, has constantly adapted to mankind since the beginning of "creation" not meant in the religious sense. Always changing and always will be changing.
    The problem is that our tendency to impact nature has exceeded nature's ability to compensate.

    EDIT: Actually, that isn't technically true. Nature can easily compensate, but it is in ways which will prove ultimately destructive to the current inhabitants of this planet. I always chuckled when people said we were destroying the Earth. The Earth will be around for a very long time to come, but she may give us an eviction notice if we don't clean up our act.
    I think population is a much larger problem than a golf course, frankly. People still have 4,5, 6, 7 8 kids. I believe the capacity of Mother Nature to harbor too many people will be the big factor. Again. I am not a scientist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Getting back on topic, I think the wind generators make a cool background for golfers.

    We have wind farms in Hawai'i and I remember some of the first ones as a young kid in Pleasanton, California.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I can recommend a good optometrist.
    Oddly enough, I feel that you probably meant something when you posted this.
    Exactly what that was, however, remains elusive.
    I would suggest an Opthamologist, over an an optometrist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I always chuckled when people said we were destroying the Earth. The Earth will be around for a very long time to come, but she may give us an eviction notice if we don't clean up our act.
    There are often to be seen bumper stickers declaring "Save the Planet". I always am reminded of what you say above: When we all are gone, the planet will save itself quite efficaciously. jocular
    As George Carlin observed, "the planet is not going anywhere, the people are" and "to the earth we are just a surface nuisance to be shrugged off". Below is the actual narrative (warning the show contains crude language), but it is very funny in a macabre sort of way.

    George Carlin - Saving the Planet - YouTube
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I always chuckled when people said we were destroying the Earth. The Earth will be around for a very long time to come, but she may give us an eviction notice if we don't clean up our act.
    There are often to be seen bumper stickers declaring "Save the Planet". I always am reminded of what you say above: When we all are gone, the planet will save itself quite efficaciously. jocular
    As George Carlin observed, "the planet is not going anywhere, the people are" and "to the earth we are just a surface nuisance to be shrugged off". Below is the actual narrative (warning the show contains crude language), but it is very funny in a macabre sort of way.

    George Carlin - Saving the Planet - YouTube
    Thanks for the link. I miss his humor.
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    Every time I think of something clever, I find a video of Carlin saying it a decade before I was born.
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    To Babe

    Re population

    You should be aware that human fertility as a global average has been dropping over the past 50 years. Today it averages 2.4, which is barely above replacement rate. The reason population is still growing is that most third world nations have young populations, so that a large percentage of the world are actively reproducing. However, they will have only 2.4 kids per couple, and the next generation will be of even lower fertility. The United Nations predicts fertility will average 2.0 by 2050, which is well below replacement rate. The UN predicts that by 2100, world population will probably be in decline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    To Babe

    Re population

    You should be aware that human fertility as a global average has been dropping over the past 50 years. Today it averages 2.4, which is barely above replacement rate. The reason population is still growing is that most third world nations have young populations, so that a large percentage of the world are actively reproducing. However, they will have only 2.4 kids per couple, and the next generation will be of even lower fertility. The United Nations predicts fertility will average 2.0 by 2050, which is well below replacement rate. The UN predicts that by 2100, world population will probably be in decline.
    Now, you don't suppose the endocrine-disrupting chemicals already present in virtually everyone's body has anything to do with it? How long have PCBs, Dioxin, DDT been around? 50 years or so? No immediate symptoms from their presence in body fat, but a breast-fed baby in U.S. or Europe now gets a lifetime dose of endocrine-disruptors via the mother's milk in one year. The presence of this shit environmentally has reduced human sperm counts drastically, and shows it's real fangs only in future generations. Want a source for this info? I got all the scientist's names who are currently studying it..... jocular
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    Jocular

    Sperm counts vary mostly according to temperature. People living in hot climates have the lowest sperm counts, and we know how this makes people from India and Africa infertile, don't we?

    The simple truth is that the reduction in fertility dates from the invention of the contraceptive pill, and the ability it gave women to control their own fertility. It has absolutely nothing to do with endocrine disruption.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Jocular

    Sperm counts vary mostly according to temperature. People living in hot climates have the lowest sperm counts, and we know how this makes people from India and Africa infertile, don't we?

    The simple truth is that the reduction in fertility dates from the invention of the contraceptive pill, and the ability it gave women to control their own fertility. It has absolutely nothing to do with endocrine disruption.
    1. Why are they down drastically in places like Iceland, and other cold places then?
    2. Convenient coinmcidence. Huge numbers of women, especially African women, dare not use them: their husbands would kill them.
    3. Only the uninformed will believe this.

    jocular
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Every time I think of something clever, I find a video of Carlin saying it a decade before I was born.
    Met him (well you are younger than I) in my very very early teens...(not physically, but through his work) .

    Loved him. What a great comedian and how he could put his thougts out there!! *chuckle*
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    To Babe

    Re population

    You should be aware that human fertility as a global average has been dropping over the past 50 years. Today it averages 2.4, which is barely above replacement rate. The reason population is still growing is that most third world nations have young populations, so that a large percentage of the world are actively reproducing. However, they will have only 2.4 kids per couple, and the next generation will be of even lower fertility. The United Nations predicts fertility will average 2.0 by 2050, which is well below replacement rate. The UN predicts that by 2100, world population will probably be in decline.
    I am sure that globally it has.

    I don't think that all regions have gone with that tread. I still see families with 8 children, and that is not unusual. I do find however, that the more education people have the less likely they seem to reproduce with by using some type of birth control.

    I hope that is the case down the road, Skeptic. Thanks for the information!
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    To jocular

    For a start, I thin k you may have been using a different definition of 'fertility'. Since I was presenting demographic statistics, I was using the word in the demographic sense, where it means the average number of children each woman has. You may have been using it in the sense a fertility doctor might use it, in which sperm count is a valid consideration.

    However, lower sperm counts as overall averages in wider geographic areas, such as whole countries, has no influence on the number of children women have. That is why I mentioned hot countries. Low sperm counts are characteristic of hot places. An average healthy man living in Hawaii will have a much lower sperm count than the average healthy man living in New York. However, that is very, very unlikely to affect how many children they have.

    A cold country like Iceland will have men with relatively high sperm counts, regardless of anything you may have read. It might be a bit lower than an equivalent cold country like (say) Norway, but the sperm counts will be higher than men in hot nations.

    I am aware that lots of crackpot web sites have tried to use sperm counts in an alarmist way. But the evidence does not bear that out. Fashion changes have a much larger effect than water pollution, for example, in that tight underwear, which warms the male genitals more, lowers sperm counts significantly. But fear not. There is no evidence that those lower sperm counts make a man less likely to father a child. If so, equatorial people would be the ones with low demographic fertility, instead of developed nations.

    To babe.
    I trust you understand that the demographic data relates to broad averages. There are still families with lots of children, but these are balanced by others with few, or no children.

    There are also countries with high fertility. These are inevitably poorer countries. Wealthy nations have low fertility. The lowest fertility is found in places like Japan, where women more often than not have only 1 or (at most) 2 children.

    Low fertility (using the word in the demographic sense) is related to the widespread use of contraceptives, and the decision made to have fewer offspring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    To jocular

    For a start, I thin k you may have been using a different definition of 'fertility'. Since I was presenting demographic statistics, I was using the word in the demographic sense, where it means the average number of children each woman has. You may have been using it in the sense a fertility doctor might use it, in which sperm count is a valid consideration.

    However, lower sperm counts as overall averages in wider geographic areas, such as whole countries, has no influence on the number of children women have. That is why I mentioned hot countries. Low sperm counts are characteristic of hot places. An average healthy man living in Hawaii will have a much lower sperm count than the average healthy man living in New York. However, that is very, very unlikely to affect how many children they have.

    A cold country like Iceland will have men with relatively high sperm counts, regardless of anything you may have read. It might be a bit lower than an equivalent cold country like (say) Norway, but the sperm counts will be higher than men in hot nations.

    I am aware that lots of crackpot web sites have tried to use sperm counts in an alarmist way. But the evidence does not bear that out. Fashion changes have a much larger effect than water pollution, for example, in that tight underwear, which warms the male genitals more, lowers sperm counts significantly. But fear not. There is no evidence that those lower sperm counts make a man less likely to father a child. If so, equatorial people would be the ones with low demographic fertility, instead of developed nations.

    To babe.
    I trust you understand that the demographic data relates to broad averages. There are still families with lots of children, but these are balanced by others with few, or no children.

    There are also countries with high fertility. These are inevitably poorer countries. Wealthy nations have low fertility. The lowest fertility is found in places like Japan, where women more often than not have only 1 or (at most) 2 children.

    Low fertility (using the word in the demographic sense) is related to the widespread use of contraceptives, and the decision made to have fewer offspring.
    Yes I understand the demographics. Mahalo
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  35. #135  
    AI's Have More Fun Bad Robot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Every time I think of something clever, I find a video of Carlin saying it a decade before I was born.
    Met him (well you are younger than I) in my very very early teens...(not physically, but through his work) .

    Loved him. What a great comedian and how he could put his thoughts out there!! *chuckle*
    The following page is full of George Carlin YouTube videos. Just put your cursor on any video to do a quick listen.

    george carlin youtube - Bing Videos
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  36. #136  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Every time I think of something clever, I find a video of Carlin saying it a decade before I was born.
    Met him (well you are younger than I) in my very very early teens...(not physically, but through his work) .

    Loved him. What a great comedian and how he could put his thoughts out there!! *chuckle*

    The following page is full of George Carlin YouTube videos. Just put your cursor on any video to do a quick listen.

    george carlin youtube - Bing Videos
    Bookmarked.

    Mahalo!
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