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Thread: Tornado, why arent there more public shelters?

  1. #1 Tornado, why arent there more public shelters? 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    In regions where tornadoes are common, I dont understand why there are not more tornado-shelters in schools and in various public places, in addition to a network of small public shelters?

    (cant shelters be done with basic pre-1950s engineering for a marginal cost?)


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    Related: » Why don’t schools and families build tornado shelters anymore? Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!


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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Precast bunkers are sold very reasonably but people do not have to install them due to building codes that are non existent in many rural areas due to costs of the installation. If a town would opt to buy one shelter for every home the costs would come down and they could pay them off over time. I guess their lives are not worth the cost of the shelter for themselves or they would have installed them after the 1999 tornado that devasted that same town.

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    When I used to storm chase in OK, during the 80s, I'd wonder the same thing--fortunately I never ran into a public place that had been destroyed. Part lack of foresight and part a stupidly independent political climate that rails against requirements even when for the common good. I understand both parts of it--one takes money, the other fears living in a place like where I live now where the county would probably not only require a shelter(if we had tornadoes), but than overcharge thousands of dollars for an onerous building permit and inspection process.

    I have no problem about letting individuals make stupid choices that put themselves in danger. (actually chance of getting hit at a point is about 2%/years). I have big issues when public buildings full of children are left unprotected.

    Here's another's take on why those school weren't protected.
    » Why don’t schools and families build tornado shelters anymore? Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
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    Saw a discussion on this on another forum. Some people wonder why these houses don't have basements or other undergrounding. Apparently the soils in this region are reactive clays. So they're hard to dig in the first place and, once built, they're liable to crack from the soil expanding and shrinking with changing moisture levels.

    And there are real issues about funding shelters. Apparently the ratepayers weren't willing to stump up the money for shelters at the schools. Individual household shelters range from $2000 to $5000, which sounds OK to me. But then I'm risk averse. I won't live in the high fire risk hills around our city nor would I move to a cyclone prone region like Queensland. And in the US, I would not live in Tornado Alley for love or money.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Saw a discussion on this on another forum. Some people wonder why these houses don't have basements or other undergrounding. Apparently the soils in this region are reactive clays. So they're hard to dig in the first place and, once built, they're liable to crack from the soil expanding and shrinking with changing moisture levels.
    Then use above ground shelters, they are just as good and half the price.



    In the wake of the fires that devastated Victoria on February 7 and continue to threaten some communities, Mr Mundy said he had been working around the clock to develop a fire-shelter from the pre-cast concrete water tanks he manufactures at Gisborne.
    "Let's face it, we are not re-inventing the wheel here," he said.
    At last weekend's Seymour Alternative Farming Expo, he had three models on display.
    No surprises that his display created plenty of interest.
    He said he handed out more than 5000 brochures and took bookings for 50 shelters, including five each from Tasmania and Western Australia.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    thanks

    the article says : "it’s not “politically correct” to have an intelligent discussion about any of this"


    Why?
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    Funny how two skeptics both posted links to Alex Jones...

    I think it's a record.
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    The Personal Survival Manual Against Tornade:

    Please tape up to the window and take down on the floor.



    I don't have an idea to make reduction tornades.
    Science gives people the hope always.
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    OMG Flick, you linked to info wars....the haven of conspiracy theories. Alex Jones is a nut.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    Im pretty damn depressed that A Jones was linked to TWICE. This is the same man that is convinced the Boston Bombing all the way back to Oklahoma city were "False flag" operation by the US government. UGH
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    Hey, Paleo, are you ignoring my posts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Saw a discussion on this on another forum. Some people wonder why these houses don't have basements or other undergrounding. Apparently the soils in this region are reactive clays. So they're hard to dig in the first place and, once built, they're liable to crack from the soil expanding and shrinking with changing moisture levels.
    Then use above ground shelters, they are just as good and half the price.



    In the wake of the fires that devastated Victoria on February 7 and continue to threaten some communities, Mr Mundy said he had been working around the clock to develop a fire-shelter from the pre-cast concrete water tanks he manufactures at Gisborne.
    "Let's face it, we are not re-inventing the wheel here," he said.
    At last weekend's Seymour Alternative Farming Expo, he had three models on display.
    No surprises that his display created plenty of interest.
    He said he handed out more than 5000 brochures and took bookings for 50 shelters, including five each from Tasmania and Western Australia.
    I wouldn't trust the above ground one to protect you from an F5. I was watching the footage from moore and there was a huge oil tank made of very heavy reinforces steel that looked way heavier than that shelter you pictured. And it had been carried,IIRC, over 1.5 miles before it landed on a house.

    An F5 is simply nothing to be messed with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    OMG Flick, you linked to info wars....the haven of conspiracy theories. Alex Jones is a nut.
    So did Lynx, so did Lynx!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Actually, I just did a Google search in a vain attempt to show that there was a discussion going on out there. I didn't pay attention. Let me be clear; I do NOT believe the government has weather control weapons! I was just careless! Don't ban me!
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    The irony is that it was a well written article that really hit the nail on the head.
    I did not see any conspiracy in it, just good old fashioned American stupidity exposed.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Saw a discussion on this on another forum. Some people wonder why these houses don't have basements or other undergrounding. Apparently the soils in this region are reactive clays. So they're hard to dig in the first place and, once built, they're liable to crack from the soil expanding and shrinking with changing moisture levels.
    Then use above ground shelters, they are just as good and half the price.



    In the wake of the fires that devastated Victoria on February 7 and continue to threaten some communities, Mr Mundy said he had been working around the clock to develop a fire-shelter from the pre-cast concrete water tanks he manufactures at Gisborne.
    "Let's face it, we are not re-inventing the wheel here," he said.
    At last weekend's Seymour Alternative Farming Expo, he had three models on display.
    No surprises that his display created plenty of interest.
    He said he handed out more than 5000 brochures and took bookings for 50 shelters, including five each from Tasmania and Western Australia.
    I wouldn't trust the above ground one to protect you from an F5. I was watching the footage from moore and there was a huge oil tank made of very heavy reinforces steel that looked way heavier than that shelter you pictured. And it had been carried,IIRC, over 1.5 miles before it landed on a house.

    An F5 is simply nothing to be messed with.

    I understand your viewpoint however if they could substantially secure this type of bunker with some kind of anchoring pins or protrusions that would dig into the ground to insure that they are firmly attached to the ground by these pins, this kind of structure would be much better than staying inside a house or basement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Perhaps it is the ease of fabrication purposes, but would altering the shape of this bunker into a cone shape with better aerodynamic properties such as a wider base and lower incline angle be more viable against the wind forces of hurricanes and tornadoes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I understand your viewpoint however if they could substantially secure this type of bunker with some kind of anchoring pins or protrusions that would dig into the ground to insure that they are firmly attached to the ground by these pins, this kind of structure would be much better than staying inside a house or basement.
    Not all tornadoes are F5, as well. F5 tornadoes happen much less frequently than the other categories.
    It could still do a lot of good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I understand your viewpoint however if they could substantially secure this type of bunker with some kind of anchoring pins or protrusions that would dig into the ground to insure that they are firmly attached to the ground by these pins, this kind of structure would be much better than staying inside a house or basement.
    Not all tornadoes are F5, as well. F5 tornadoes happen much less frequently than the other categories.
    It could still do a lot of good.
    Largest tornade will be happen when greenhouse gas like ozone decrease electrolytically at instance. It would help to forcast tornade by watching components as nitrogen oxide and ozone in the air.
    Science gives people the hope always.
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    Quote Originally Posted by overthelight View Post
    Largest tornade will be happen when greenhouse gas like ozone decrease electrolytically at instance. It would help to forcast tornade by watching components as nitrogen oxide and ozone in the air.
    That has not much to do with the OP. While there is some relationship between electrical activity in supercells and mesocyclones that result in tornado genesis, the OP is about preventing injuries as they happen. Prediction for these particular storms was very good, with moderate area risk forecast a full day ahead and followed by watches hours ahead and warnings in plenty of time for people to respond. But knowing it's coming isn't enough if you no place safe to go. My take is things haven't changed much since I was there in the 1980s, the culture is so resistant to government involvement that its until now refused to protect the public, despite many people getting unnecessarily hurt every year because even with federal moneys available they choose not to build shelters in their homes or demand it in their schools. Personally I think homeowners can make their own choices--but don't have the right to risk others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overthelight View Post
    Largest tornade will be happen when greenhouse gas like ozone decrease electrolytically at instance. It would help to forcast tornade by watching components as nitrogen oxide and ozone in the air.
    That has not much to do with the OP. While there is some relationship between electrical activity in supercells and mesocyclones that result in tornado genesis, the OP is about preventing injuries as they happen. Prediction for these particular storms was very good, with moderate area risk forecast a full day ahead and followed by watches hours ahead and warnings in plenty of time for people to respond. But knowing it's coming isn't enough if you no place safe to go. My take is things haven't changed much since I was there in the 1980s, the culture is so resistant to government involvement that its until now refused to protect the public, despite many people getting unnecessarily hurt every year because even with federal moneys available they choose not to build shelters in their homes or demand it in their schools. Personally I think homeowners can make their own choices--but don't have the right to risk others.
    Well, unknown mechanism on the weather would be still.
    Science gives people the hope always.
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    Quote Originally Posted by overthelight View Post
    Well, unknown mechanism on the weather would be still.
    Huh?
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    Maybe a google translate issue?
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    Tornade could be for weather weapon, but I don't concern militaly technology here.
    Science gives people the hope always.
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    The title of the thread makes it sound like you are posing the question to a tornado. Please learn to speak proper English. Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    The title of the thread makes it sound like you are posing the question to a tornado. Please learn to speak proper English. Thank you.
    I may be wrong, (in which case Icewendigo can point at me and laugh...) but I think he's not a native English speaker and his English is pretty good.

    And for other readers/lurkers, while mikepotter84's post may appear to be harsh, there is nothing more aggravating than native English speakers being utterly and totally ignorant about their own language. I think it's an American thing, really... or pride; Either way, it's frustrating for the rest of the world to see how dumb we can be.
    Born English speakers should be fluent in English. Not sloppy and ignorant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    The title of the thread makes it sound like you are posing the question to a tornado. Please learn to speak proper English. Thank you.
    Do you understand that thread titles do not need to be complete sentences?
    seagypsy likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by overthelight View Post
    Tornade could be for weather weapon, but I don't concern militaly technology here.
    This makes no sense. There's obviously a communication problem here. Please learn to speak and write better English, or stop posting. Nobody can understand you anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    The title of the thread makes it sound like you are posing the question to a tornado. Please learn to speak proper English. Thank you.
    Do you understand that thread titles do not need to be complete sentences?
    It isn't that difficult to type proper English today given the many tools available online. There is no excuse to type jumbled, nonsensical English in a thread title.
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  31. #30  
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    Change comma to dash and add apostrophe. Simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    It isn't that difficult to type proper English today given the many tools available online. There is no excuse to type jumbled, nonsensical English in a thread title.
    What- like google translate?
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    Maybe the reason nobody takes action is because historically there really haven't been a lot of deaths from tornadoes.


    Average number of tornadoes and average deaths per year by state
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Maybe the reason nobody takes action is because historically there really haven't been a lot of deaths from tornadoes.


    Average number of tornadoes and average deaths per year by state
    This is a good point. Maybe the people in tornado states have a more realistic assessment of the risk. Mostly, we are terrible at judging real risk, and tend to react disproportionately to things that make news headlines.

    Surprisingly, there are as many tornado deaths per year in my home state of Pennsylvania as in Kansas. What's up with that? Maybe higher population density.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    It isn't that difficult to type proper English today given the many tools available online. There is no excuse to type jumbled, nonsensical English in a thread title.
    What- like google translate?
    There are hundreds of good websites outlining English grammar.
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    The title of the thread makes it sound like you are posing the question to a tornado. Please learn to speak proper English. Thank you.
    Do you understand that thread titles do not need to be complete sentences?
    It isn't that difficult to type proper English today given the many tools available online. There is no excuse to type jumbled, nonsensical English in a thread title.
    Yeah titles that aren't written in proper sentences suck and show how ignorant and unstudied the authors are. For instance "States Rights: A Sordid History" is a horribly stupid title and really shows how lazy and ignorant the author is. I can't make heads or tails of what that book is supposed to be about based on it's title. So its up for criticism whether you read the book or not. The title is all anyone needs to read to make a judgement on something.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    There are hundreds of good websites outlining English grammar.
    Possibly. But google translate is what most turn to and when it comes to a non native English speaker, you simply cannot expect or demand that they build fluency in one day from a website (or hundreds of them) to please you.

    That said, this whole bit is drifting needlessly off topic. You made a comment on it that was not out of line- I commented on two aspects of it and with all of the above- I think it's been sufficiently covered, don't you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepotter84 View Post
    The title of the thread makes it sound like you are posing the question to a tornado. Please learn to speak proper English. Thank you.
    Do you understand that thread titles do not need to be complete sentences?
    It isn't that difficult to type proper English today given the many tools available online. There is no excuse to type jumbled, nonsensical English in a thread title.
    Yeah titles that aren't written in proper sentences suck and show how ignorant and unstudied the authors are. For instance "States Rights: A Sordid History" is a horribly stupid title and really shows how lazy and ignorant the author is. I can't make heads or tails of what that book is supposed to be about based on it's title. So its up for criticism whether you read the book or not. The title is all anyone needs to read to make a judgement on something.
    If only you knew how to read. Anyway, this is off topic. Let's get back to the topic at hand. There aren't more shelters because the government cares more about national defense than taking care of citizens. Ego is the problem. We have the military strength of several European countries combined but it is never enough.
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    . There aren't more shelters because the government cares more about national defense than taking care of citizens. Ego is the problem. We have the military strength of several European countries combined but it is never enough.
    So you're suggesting the Feds pay for what's essentially a state issue? Why? I can perhaps see cost sharing, but don't think it's a federal responsibility.

    --

    Thanks Kojak for posting deaths.

    Pennsylvania is just about as high as OK, mostly due to the difference in public awareness between the two States (I've spent a fair amount of time in both places).
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; June 25th, 2013 at 10:25 AM.
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    The PA statisitics are skewed by an outbreak in 1985, which caused 65 of the 77 deaths since 1950. Even with that, the risk of death in any one year is 1 in 6,896,552. Is this a reason to make tornado shelters a public safety priority, over say, bridge repair, traffic law enforcement, etc?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    . There aren't more shelters because the government cares more about national defense than taking care of citizens. Ego is the problem. We have the military strength of several European countries combined but it is never enough.
    So you're suggesting the Feds pay for what's essentially a state issue? Why? I can perhaps see cost sharing, but don't think it's a federal responsibility.

    --

    Thanks Kojak for posting deaths.

    Pennsylvania is just about as high as OK, mostly due to the difference in public awareness between the two States (I've spent a fair amount of time in both places).
    It need not be in the form of Federal payment for tornado shelters in every state, but it is quite reasonable for the federal Gov to pay for disaster preparedness improvements. Here in WA (and OR and CA) we desperately need flood, Volcano, earthquake, and Tsunami improvements. The Midwest states need Blizzard, Tornado and drought improvements. The Atlantic states need heatwave and hurricane Improvements. The amount of money paid into the improvements would be offset by the amount saved in disaster relief efforts later.

    The I-5 bridge collapse was bad, think of the number of bridges in the Greater Puget sound region that are outdated and would NOT survive a 7.0 quake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    The I-5 bridge collapse was bad, think of the number of bridges in the Greater Puget sound region that are outdated and would NOT survive a 7.0 quake.
    You used a poor example:

    I-5 is an interstate highway, where the Constitution clearly says is part Federal Congresses responsibility to maintain under the Constitution--it's quite different from other forms of disaster prevention and relief.

    In most cases, there is very little return on monetary return for preventative federal moneys--as FEMA is set up now it mandates requirements for insurance and building standards in disaster prone areas to mitigate cost and as a stringer so it will in the future provide emergency relief to that state--the state doesn't have to agree, and legally the feds have no responsibility to help if the state doesn't agree--particularly is the disaster is a local one such as tornados usually are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    The I-5 bridge collapse was bad, think of the number of bridges in the Greater Puget sound region that are outdated and would NOT survive a 7.0 quake.
    You used a poor example:

    I-5 is an interstate highway, where the Constitution clearly says is part Federal Congresses responsibility to maintain under the Constitution--it's quite different from other forms of disaster prevention and relief.

    In most cases, there is very little return on monetary return for preventative federal moneys--as FEMA is set up now it mandates requirements for insurance and building standards in disaster prone areas to mitigate cost and as a stringer so it will in the future provide emergency relief to that state--the state doesn't have to agree, and legally the feds have no responsibility to help if the state doesn't agree--particularly is the disaster is a local one such as tornados usually are.
    Constitutional authority for federal involvement in interstate highway construction was based on the military purpose of mobilizing troops and war materials. Maintenance is generally the responsibility of the states although some funding comes from the federal government.
    Interstate Highway System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    The I-5 bridge collapse was bad, think of the number of bridges in the Greater Puget sound region that are outdated and would NOT survive a 7.0 quake.
    You used a poor example:

    I-5 is an interstate highway, where the Constitution clearly says is part Federal Congresses responsibility to maintain under the Constitution--it's quite different from other forms of disaster prevention and relief.

    In most cases, there is very little return on monetary return for preventative federal moneys--as FEMA is set up now it mandates requirements for insurance and building standards in disaster prone areas to mitigate cost and as a stringer so it will in the future provide emergency relief to that state--the state doesn't have to agree, and legally the feds have no responsibility to help if the state doesn't agree--particularly is the disaster is a local one such as tornados usually are.
    I used a fine example. It was an example of an aging bridge which collapsed due to an even that was less then what would have been seen in a moderate to large earthquake. My point was the large number of bridges in the Greater Puget Sound region are not prepared for a large earthquake.

    The return I was talking about would be in lessened expenditures after a disaster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I used a fine example. It was an example of an aging bridge which collapsed due to an even that was less then what would have been seen in a moderate to large earthquake. My point was the large number of bridges in the Greater Puget Sound region are not prepared for a large earthquake.
    I don't dispute that the US bridge infrastructure is in serious disrepair--that collapsed bridge had been getting a C- rating for more than ten years.
    My point of contention is who's responsible to pays the bills for prevention and for the aftermath. No it was a terrible example because the I-5 bridge is by the US Constitution a federal responsibility (interstate)--- the other example aren't, including most of the other bridges in Puget Sound--they are the responsibility of State and local governments.

    Getting back to the thread. Tornado shelters for schools is well within the capability of the State and local government to build and in doing so they would have gotten more flexibility to develop the contract specifics unburdened by federal red tape--they simply chose not to. Most tornado disaster, because of their limited scope are also well within state capabilities to handle--the feds already provide every state a huge (though albiet limited) resource through their ~90% funding(a regrettable necessity to keep the militia updated) of the national guard system at the governor's disposal . Hurricane typically get federal involvement because they are usually multi-state disasters and often exceed the State's capabilities to handle--those states agree to pretty rigirous federal standards (construction, insurance, prohibited zones etc) in exchange for federal expertise, education prevention, and ultimately to clean up the mess.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; June 25th, 2013 at 04:56 PM.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Generally speaking, I love it when parochial navel-gazing hillbillies think that everyone on planet Earth write and speak English as a first language and eat at the Wafflehouse *because they do* (Or that no one is posting from a cellphone with limited time.). When such douchebags can post in their second and third language without getting any flak for grammar then they will be fully justified to cry about grammar. Until then, tea bags should just ignore my posts, and keep their boxes of kleenex ready because not everyone's first language is English, and some have greater challenges than others. A sad reality, but we have to be strong in the face of such adversity. Cheers.


    Hum, that could have been a wee bit more diplomatic. Lets try again...

    Grammar? Yes its sad my grammar isnt as great as other people's. Sadly its not likely to improve in any dramatic fashion any time soon.

    Thats better
    Last edited by icewendigo; June 25th, 2013 at 08:23 PM.
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