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Thread: So who has faith in the 'Technological Fix' ?

  1. #1 So who has faith in the 'Technological Fix' ? 
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    Many, perhaps even most contributors to this forum are scientists or have some science background, I think this is a reasonable assumption. So I'd like to ask a question: How many of you think that there is a 'Technological Fix' for all of the big issues that we and our fellow species on this planet face.

    I can see that if ( and it is a giant if) we can get fusion power to work reliably then energy and carbon emissions may become a thing of the past but that still leaves some big big problems for us to deal with like increasing population, decreasing resources, reducing biodiversity, disease, ageing of poplulations, the threat of natural disasters from earthquakes and supervolcanos to asteroid impacts. I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture.

    Can we/science do it? Or are there ( as I suspect) limits?


    Last edited by Jeaunse23; May 6th, 2013 at 03:42 AM.
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    I believe that we can scientifically find the answers, but not necessarily the means, much less find either in the time needed.

    This is why I am a bit apocalyptic. My opinion is that we'll end up circling the drain.
    Now, this doesn't mean we shouldn't try... I advocate trying.
    But I have very little faith in humanity to actually really do anything.

    In order to meet the big issues in time, humanity (as in the majority of humans) would have to suddenly become very selfless and dedicated.
    We'd have to be willing to forgo the things most people believe in. Including many aspects of morality.

    Not gonna happen.

    It's just not how evolution wired us.

    In evolution, a species is bound to dead end sometime.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    In evolution, a species is bound to dead end sometime.
    Although I can see how there could be sudden (relatively speaking) devastation across the planet, wiping out millions (if not billions) of people, I am not convinced that we would also suddenly (relatively speaking) die out as a species.

    If...ok, when we screw up and kill off millions, we will just start again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    It's just not how evolution wired us.
    Yeah - I'm not convinced that the 'next generation' would be much better than us.
    But, eventually, we may learn to stop being idiots.

    I am not sure that we need technology to save us - we can simply play the numbers game and rely on our huge population.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Although I can see how there could be sudden (relatively speaking) devastation across the planet, wiping out millions (if not billions) of people, I am not convinced that we would also suddenly (relatively speaking) die out as a species.
    I never said it would be sudden. It's a bit like the "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire."
    It didn't really fall. It just kinda petered out. I think that is how we are likely to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Yeah - I'm not convinced that the 'next generation' would be much better than us.
    What next generation? Dead end is extinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    But, eventually, we may learn to stop being idiots.
    Umm... ok but this:
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    we can simply play the numbers game and rely on our huge population.
    Won't help much for the above, Before long, the idiots would be the majority.

    In fact...

    I think that's already happened.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Although I can see how there could be sudden (relatively speaking) devastation across the planet, wiping out millions (if not billions) of people, I am not convinced that we would also suddenly (relatively speaking) die out as a species.
    I never said it would be sudden. It's a bit like the "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire."
    It didn't really fall. It just kinda petered out. I think that is how we are likely to go.
    I agree, that if we were to go extinct, it would probably be a slow process - due to our large numbers and our ability to adapt quickly to most threats.
    What I disagree with is the assumption that we will go extinct due to the dangers listed in the OP - or that we need modern technology to prevent that extinction.

    It would require a 'world shattering' event to wipe us all out - not just plagues/earthquakes/famine (e.g. a complete nuclear holocaust).

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Yeah - I'm not convinced that the 'next generation' would be much better than us.
    What next generation? Dead end is extinction.
    It was relating to my "I am not convinced that we would also suddenly (relatively speaking) die out as a species." comment.
    I don't see any reasons listed in the OP which could cause us to become extinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    we can simply play the numbers game and rely on our huge population.
    Won't help much for the above, Before long, the idiots would be the majority.
    In fact...
    I think that's already happened.
    It could be argued that for most of our history we have been idiots - but have still managed to 'muddle by'.
    Us being idiots does not ensure our extinction.
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    Runaway greenhouse effect? I don't know if we have the right conditions to potentially end up like Venus? That would ensure our utter extinction! One thing is for sure, we cannot escape the ultimate heat death of the universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    What I disagree with is the assumption that we will go extinct due to the dangers listed in the OP - or that we need modern technology to prevent that extinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    It was relating to my "I am not convinced that we would also suddenly (relatively speaking) die out as a species." comment.
    I don't see any reasons listed in the OP which could cause us to become extinct.
    See, there's the bit about " I could go on but you get the picture" that gets my imagination goin.' Armageddon impacts, Korean short guys with a short fuse and lotsa nukes... Cats and dogs living together- Mass Hysteria!
    In which case we'd peter out because once the majority of the population went under, the survivors would probably have no idea what to do or how to get things working again... Can you picture someone like "Georga Castanza" making ends meet in a post apocalyptic Earth? Naw, he'd be dinner. If not to something big, then to something small.
    See below.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    It would require a 'world shattering' event to wipe us all out - not just plagues/earthquakes/famine (e.g. a complete nuclear holocaust).
    Well, those are fun. Add those ideas to the O.P.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    It could be argued that for most of our history we have been idiots - but have still managed to 'muddle by'.
    Us being idiots does not ensure our extinction.
    Ah, but in the old days, the idiots did not outnumber the rest by such a massive margin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    It was relating to my "I am not convinced that we would also suddenly (relatively speaking) die out as a species." comment.
    I don't see any reasons listed in the OP which could cause us to become extinct.
    In which case we'd peter out because once the majority of the population went under, the survivors would probably have no idea what to do or how to get things working again.
    But we don't need to get everything working again.
    We just need food/water/shelter.
    Even cavemen could do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    It would require a 'world shattering' event to wipe us all out - not just plagues/earthquakes/famine (e.g. a complete nuclear holocaust).
    Well, those are fun. Add those ideas to the O.P.
    There is no solution for total annihilation.
    That's kinda how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    It could be argued that for most of our history we have been idiots - but have still managed to 'muddle by'.
    Us being idiots does not ensure our extinction.
    Ah, but in the old days, the idiots did not outnumber the rest by such a massive margin
    Did they not?
    During the Dark Ages, were there majority not idiots?

    Maybe we need to define what we mean by idiot.
    If we go by the definition "someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counter-productive way" or "a foolish person" - could not most people in the Dark Ages be considered idiots?
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    See, we're not cavemen, though. We've had a thousand years to get soft, pudgy, weak and addicted to fast food. Sort of. But you see my point...

    People get lost out in the woods and you either find them dead...
    Or they straggle into town all F'ed up and spend the next ten years touring their book about their "ordeal."

    Guy is in the hospital. Just all kinds of a mess, right. Maybe he won't make it. "What happened to him?"
    "Exposure."
    Exposure to what?
    "The elements."

    Really?

    They get hit by sunbeams and raindrops and go nuts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    People get lost out in the woods and you either find them dead...
    And how many people get lost in the woods and then find their way out?
    And how many people go in to the woods and don't get lost?

    I am guessing that your example gets a lot more publicity than "Man doesn't get lost in woods!" or "Woman wanders around the woods for a bit until she finds her way out!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeaunse23 View Post
    Many, perhaps even most contributors to this forum are scientists or have some science background, I think this is a reasonable assumption. So I'd like to ask a question: How many of you think that there is a 'Technological Fix' for all of the big issues...
    There may be technological fixes, but that is the tricky part about technology. First there is discovery of the science behind it, then having the means to deploy it. Think of the example of manned flight being imagined by Leonardo da Vinci and The Wright Brothers first flight, there were many years and failed attempts between those two points of time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeaunse23 View Post
    Many, perhaps even most contributors to this forum are scientists or have some science background, I think this is a reasonable assumption. So I'd like to ask a question: How many of you think that there is a 'Technological Fix' for all of the big issues that we and our fellow species on this planet face.

    I can see that if ( and it is a giant if) we can get fusion power to work reliably then energy and carbon emissions may become a thing of the past but that still leaves some big big problems for us to deal with like increasing population, decreasing resources, reducing biodiversity, disease, ageing of poplulations, the threat of natural disasters from earthquakes and supervolcanos to asteroid impacts. I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture.

    Can we/science do it? Or are there ( as I suspect) limits?
    I like this because it is something we have only just started to face. We have to stand up to issues on a global scale. It's often scary and sometimes inspiring to see how we come together as a broader human race when we have to address these problems.

    I don't think humanity will go extinct or anything (we're far too adaptable for that), but I do think we face some very serious issues in our future that, if we do not correct now via preventative methods, we will have to correct via massive engineering projects. It will be a fascinating time for humanity, but I'm not sure I would want to live through it.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    ====
    EDIT: having accessed this thread from Today's post and being mistaken about the category in which it was, my comment is not very relevant in this context. (I'll keep it up nonetheless, but take it with a Huge grain of salt ).
    ====

    a few thoughts;

    1- Caveat: Imo, it is not reasonable to set the bar at the "something to solve any problem I can possibly imagine" level. Which is not far from what the question is set at. So the answer to the technological fix for anything question is no, indeed there is no technological fix for any problem anyone can possibly imagine. (And fortunately, Pasteur has not thrown the towel/given up from studying micro-organisms because he could not save everyone's life in all situations imaginable, he did however find ways to save millions of people over time from dying from preventable diseases and improved the quality of life of people.)

    2- It is however "technically" possible to fantastically improve the quality of life of all humans on earth, the barrier are
    NOT the physical laws of the universe, but "Organizational", what humans do, we have sufficient technology and the means to improve technology further in yeas to come, we have sufficient resources on the planet even if many people do not realize this (the trick is how we use and reuse/recycle resources and for what purpose, this means a different culture-way of life). The organization model we are in now, has fumbled and tumbled as is out of the antiquity and middle ages when humans were utterly ignorant about many aspects of the world in which we live, and it sucks, but we are born in it, an find it normal, unless we are allowed to think about it and reevaluate it. I realize that while blinded by the box, it is difficult to think outside the box of our current civilization, and see that the limits are not technical and that population levels are ok if they stabilize, and that we have enough resources, many express doubts that are understandable because they project our current civilization's aberrations as if it was a given, (like given technology without cultural changes, someone from the medieval age might say "great we have even better ways to torture people!", and some people in our civilization might say "whooohoo, we have new means to create plastic novelty dog shit, more profit, great!", I will have to address this in another reply.

    3- The limit, imo, is not Human lack of intelligence, nor how dumb humans are, how we were "wired" by evolution, human nature, etc etc. Humans used to live in caves with dear skins. Anyone here, were he born in that time would be a caveman, not know what lightning, earthquakes, the lights in the sky, the shape of whatever we are in (planet), clueless about bacterias, the human mind, cells neurons, basically we would be close to animals living in the wild. The difference is not intrinsic but the environment in which the human organism finds himself in, when we are born we learn to see, we learn to talk in the language we are exposed to, and we learn about many things based on culture and interactions with other humans. If you are told Santa Claus travels on a magical sleigh you will believe that initially, if society around you is the Roman Empire's aristocracy, then slave owning and gladiator-murder-as-entertainment, you would likely find its normal no matter how aberrant it is from another perspective. The less than stellar quality of life of the middle ages are not due to human dumb/lack of intelligence/wired this or that way, and our current condition is also not caused by human brain deficiency, but due to the organizational/cultural/social environment we happen to be born in.
    Last edited by icewendigo; May 6th, 2013 at 10:49 AM.
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    Our brains are quite wired. Pointing out minor cultural differences hardly detracts from it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeaunse23 View Post
    Many, perhaps even most contributors to this forum are scientists or have some science background, I think this is a reasonable assumption. So I'd like to ask a question: How many of you think that there is a 'Technological Fix' for all of the big issues that we and our fellow species on this planet face.

    I can see that if ( and it is a giant if) we can get fusion power to work reliably then energy and carbon emissions may become a thing of the past but that still leaves some big big problems for us to deal with like increasing population, decreasing resources, reducing biodiversity, disease, ageing of poplulations, the threat of natural disasters from earthquakes and supervolcanos to asteroid impacts. I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture.

    Can we/science do it? Or are there ( as I suspect) limits?
    All the big "problems " you have mentioned plus many more are evolutionary consequences. Mankind may be the only species with the intelligence to know these processes are happening, so may be able to control them ... to some degree. However, the actions of a species like mankind are still within the realm of evolution, for we are a child of nature, therefore all that we do is natural. What individual or group actions can do against the mass of the species is the question, and those are limited to earthly control. We are at the mercy of the environmental changes that are in motion from evolutionary influences outside earth. Your question is huge, and my answer is short, but maybe this thread will continue into the many thoughts generated by it.
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    "Pointing out minor cultural differences hardly detracts from it."
    You are missing the point Neverfly, the minor difference, is the difference between freezing knee deep in mud with flees and animal skins being unsure about eating or surviving in the next few days day while being ignorant about almost everything, and, living in comfort adjusting temperature having hot water at the turn of a tab reading about engineering. We are NOT wired to live as the former nor the latter, its a factor of the environment in which you are born, that is not a minor difference in Quality of Life and thats the point I am making.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "Pointing out minor cultural differences hardly detracts from it."
    You are missing the point Neverfly, the minor difference, is the difference between freezing knee deep in mud with flees and animal skins being unsure about eating or surviving in the next few days day while being ignorant about almost everything, and, living in comfort adjusting temperature having hot water at the turn of a tab reading about engineering. We are NOT wired to live as the former nor the latter, its a factor of the environment in which you are born, that is not a minor difference in Quality of Life and thats the point I am making.
    True, but maybe we both crossed wires, here.

    When I mentioned how our brains are wired, I was talking about our selfish nature. And that won't change culture to culture. If we get further on that- it will be the nurture vs nature argument and I'll side with more nature than nurture.

    When I mentioned the fat cluelessness- yes, that is cultural.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeaunse23 View Post
    Runaway greenhouse effect? I don't know if we have the right conditions to potentially end up like Venus? That would ensure our utter extinction! One thing is for sure, we cannot escape the ultimate heat death of the universe.
    let's look at that silliness

    When he bagan his career, James Hansen studied Venus, so some of his early writings talked about the "runaway greenhouse effect".
    He has since disavowed those early radical prognostications and verbiage.
    Leaving only fools and the uneducated to parrot and despair of those prognostications and conclusions.

    Throw that thought in the trash can where it belongs, then take out the garbage so it stops stinking up the house and infecting the brains of the ignorant.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    How many of you think that there is a 'Technological Fix' for all of the big issues that we and our fellow species on this planet face
    The really big issues are those that only humans themselves can "fix" not technology. A few of those big problems are greed, envy, ignorance , poverty, violence and unbalanced supplies of food, money and medicines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    When he bagan his career, James Hansen studied Venus, so some of his early writings talked about the "runaway greenhouse effect".
    He has since disavowed those early radical prognostications and verbiage.
    Leaving only fools and the uneducated to parrot and despair of those prognostications and conclusions.
    Elucidate.
    Give details with supportive references.
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  22. #21  
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    do your own homework

    hint
    google "james hansen, venus"

    there's a good start for you laddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    do your own homework

    hint
    google "james hansen, venus"

    there's a good start for you laddy
    It isn't my homework. It is your claim and your job to support it.
    I already googled it and what I found was not very supportive of what you just said. Which is probably why you just tried to weasel out of having to back up what you say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeaunse23 View Post
    Runaway greenhouse effect? I don't know if we have the right conditions to potentially end up like Venus? That would ensure our utter extinction! One thing is for sure, we cannot escape the ultimate heat death of the universe.
    Run away greenhouse is nearly impossible--in a half billion years or so, as the sun continues to expand it starts to become a possibility: By then we won't be humans.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
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    From wiki:
    A runaway greenhouse effect is a process in which a net positive feedback between surface temperature and atmospheric opacity increases the strength of the greenhouse effect on a planet until its oceans boil away.[1][2] An example of this is believed to have happened in the early history of Venus. On the Earth, the IPCC states that "a 'runaway greenhouse effect'—analogous to Venus—appears to have virtually no chance of being induced by anthropogenic activities."[3]
    Runaway greenhouse effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The effect, however, is quite real. Even if not applicable here.
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    Well thats a relief!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeaunse23 View Post
    Well thats a relief!
    You were worried huh? Me too, I was thinking about moving north or up into the mountains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    The really big issues are those that only humans themselves can "fix" not technology. A few of those big problems are greed, envy, ignorance , poverty, violence and unbalanced supplies of food, money and medicines.
    hmmm.. the ignorance problem.... we might need an new species for that one.
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    A man can move ahead by his footstep.
    Science gives people the hope always.
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