Notices
Results 1 to 89 of 89
Like Tree10Likes
  • 1 Post By adelady
  • 1 Post By MeteorWayne
  • 1 Post By halorealm
  • 1 Post By MeteorWayne
  • 1 Post By Pong
  • 1 Post By MeteorWayne
  • 1 Post By sculptor
  • 1 Post By sculptor
  • 1 Post By question for you
  • 1 Post By westwind

Thread: Old-fashioned tomatoes really do taste better!

  1. #1 Old-fashioned tomatoes really do taste better! 
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Evenly red tomatoes may look ripe, but the ones that get that appearance from specific breeding targeted to ensure all over redness have a 'cardboard' taste. According to old stick in the muds like me, anyway. And it's true! The genetic adjustments have reduced chlorophyll within the fruit itself, thereby reducing photosynthesis in the fruit.

    Voila! Cardboard.

    Cardboard tomatoes: Not like they used to be | The Economist

    Since about 10% of the sugars in an old-fashioned tomato are produced by photosynthesis in the fruit itself, rather than being transported in from elsewhere, and since making those sugars also results in other flavoursome molecules derived from them, Dr Powell thinks she has found the explanation for cardboard tomatoes.


    Last edited by adelady; June 30th, 2012 at 06:37 PM. Reason: spelling
    msafwan likes this.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    703
    OMG, we broke the tomatoes! is there any good tomatoes left?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    It is important to distinguish between old-fashioned tomatoes and old tomatoes.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    It is important to distinguish between old-fashioned tomatoes and old tomatoes.
    Indeed there's a big difference between a fresh tomato cut off the vine a hour ago and one thats crossed the country and been sitting around in storage for the past week and a half.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    And there's even more difference between a nice Black Russian or Green Zebra (or Mortgage Lifter or Wapsipinicon Peach) ripened on the windowsill and a 'vine-ripened' truss from the local market gardener that's only been picked a day or so.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    Our local State University has the "Annual Great Tomato Tasting" at the end of the summer when you can taste about 100 varieties, including heirlooms and hybrids they developed with good disease resistance. It's a highlight of the summer!

    Annual Great Tomato Tasting
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Ascended Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    3,418
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Evenly red tomatoes may look ripe, but the ones that get that appearance from specific breeding targeted to ensure all over redness have a 'cardboard' taste. According to old stick in the muds like me, anyway. And it's true! The genetic adjustments have reduced chlorophyll within the fruit itself, thereby reducing photosynthesis in the fruit.

    Viola! Cardboard.

    Cardboard tomatoes: Not like they used to be | The Economist

    Since about 10% of the sugars in an old-fashioned tomato are produced by photosynthesis in the fruit itself, rather than being transported in from elsewhere, and since making those sugars also results in other flavoursome molecules derived from them, Dr Powell thinks she has found the explanation for cardboard tomatoes.

    How did we end up getting to a stage where tomato's I being selected and bread for their appearance over flavour. It seems when it comes to many vegetables especially tomatos that people are better off growing their own. I know tomato's arn't the hardest plant in the world to grow.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Professor pyoko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,095
    Tomatoes have been shown to "prevent" prostate cancer.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    It is important to distinguish between old-fashioned tomatoes and old tomatoes.
    Hmm... That explains the crunchiness and excessive mold. Overall, I give rotten tomatoes a bad review.
    Saturn likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Adelady is perhaps presenting a subjective view here. While it is true that heritage tomatoes taste different to modern tomatoes, that does not mean they taste better. Taste is a purely subjective measure and a person raised on modern tomatoes will probably prefer the taste of modern tomatoes.

    A bit like wine really. I love a good Australian Shiraz. Others prefer a Sauvignon Blanc or a Merlot or Pinot Noir. etc. etc. It is very personal.

    The best thing to do with tomatoes is put them in a bowl and eat them when they ripen to a bright red. Delicious!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For skeptic. Go easy on our Shiraz. This Thread has strayed into my territory. I've just noticed it. Otherwise I'd been up early this morning starting a 10 inch Thread. As it is I'll have to make this brief. For adelady, the old KY1, the tomato bush that just grew on the ground. None of this Vine rubbish that keeps going up like a Gum Tree. And the KY1 really had flavour. Now skeptic, do you really believe you could not select the tastiest tomato in a sample.? I mean in common with other tasters. Surely if, deliberately, all tomatoes except one were chosen because they had very little detectable taste, you would surely select the tasty one. You have obviiously missed out on heat raised tomatoes as we grow them in Australia. Not hot enough in the North Island. I'll make you a deal, stop sending us your apples, and I'll airfrate over some real tomatoes. Oh, and by the way adelady. you cannot buy, beg, or steal, the old original KY1 Tomato-- the reason? they were just too tasty and all Australians were starting to grow them in their backyards. Not good for the retail industry, or their Suppliers. Conspiritory Theory, you better believe it. westwind.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Westwind

    I have eaten heaps of Aussi tomatoes.
    Also heaps of hothouse NZ ones. Both are excellent.
    We grow our own in our garden also, but only in summer.
    Also supermarket tomatoes.

    I carried out an experiment on tomatoes some years back.
    I grew three different heritage tomatoes, alongside three modern hybrids, all in my own garden with heaps of compost.
    When ripe, I did the old taste test, and used bowl ripened supermarket ones as a control.

    The main finding is that ripeness, not modern or heritage, is the main determinant of flavour. I actually preferred the modern hybrids over the heritage varieties. I doubt your KY1 was included. The big thing is that the tomatoes must be permitted to ripen properly. Often the supermarket ones, when bought, are well short of proper ripeness. Leaving them in a bowl to ripen properly makes all the difference to flavour.

    Did you see the Penn and Teller taste test comparing organic and conventionally grown tomatoes?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs

    They cheated, of course. When I watched this, I noticed that their conventional tomatoes were more red than their organic ones, meaning more ripe. So naturally, the blind test resulted in people thinking conventional tomatoes were better tasting.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For MeteorWayne. How long has this be going on? Quote. '' Annual Great Tomato Tasting'' End Quote. You live in New Jersey. Yet you didn't inform your buddy Australian Members of this Annual Event? We would kill to get there. Tomatoes to us down here is like Pop Eye Spinach to you. Four or five tomatoes and out we go and dig an acre of ground over. You could surely arrange a Package deal, including Airfares, for us to attend this Festival? westwind.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Yes, you can still get 'Scoresby Dwarf' tomato seed.
    Tomato 'KY1' | southernharvest.com.au

    As for red tomatoes. One of my favourites is Green Zebra. Never have trouble with birds going for these - they stay green all the way and go a bit yellowish striped when they're about over-ripe. We don't leave them on the bushes to ripen though. With our dry climate and punishing summer heat, you can lose half the crop to sun scald in a day. Much better to pick them as soon as they show the first signs of colour (but not a moment before unless the crop is so big you're making green tomato pickle in the middle of summer). Leave them somewhere - nowhere near a fridge - to ripen in their own sweet time.

    As for taste being subjective, skeptic, I'll admit that. We're a bit gourmet-ish here. All very well until you hear your grown children disparaging foods that we always thought were pretty OK. Their 'educated' palates are super-sensitive, otherwise known as picky.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    Thanks for your prompt Poste sceptic. Well, it seems you have made an effort to be fair and reasonable here. To be honest I believe the growing conditions and soil make up are vital to success. The KY1 Variety liked freshly dug soil, slightly acid, heavy but friable so a little oxygen could come down with watering. No manure or Fertilisers required, in fact of no benefit whatsoever. No skeptic, I don't look at comparison tests, I write them. Retail Trade require these base ball type tomatoes. When you cut them you have an outer shell like a coco-nut then a cave like cavity, and centrally located what passes for a core, but these cores are becoming more like Quince Cores everyday. What say you adelady? Imust admit adelady, I'm first in when the season starts to buy the Adelaide tomatoe, even though they pick them a little green for the Melbourne Markets. Now, they are nice, a little like a smaller version of the KY1. westwind.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    I think the main reason Adelaide tomatoes are a bit green when they get to Melbourne is that they just get there a bit quicker than the Queensland ones. They're probably picked at much the same colouring.

    Adelaide to Melbourne is not very far, less than 750 km. Bundaberg is almost three times that distance - and presumably longer in terms of driving times with rest breaks for the truckies and all.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    As a veteran of a half a dozen Annual Great Tomato Tastings, I can confirm that taste is very personal. Ann and I taste about 100 varieties each year (after that, it's time for a two week tomato strike). Out of them, we agree on about a half dozen that we both think are great, Another 2 dozen or so one of us likes a lot, the other says meh. About a dozen or so we both agree that we are not amused. The rest are Ok to varying degrees. {burp}.

    It really is quite an experience to compare so many.

    BTW, they also have a dozen or so varieties of peaches, peppers, and apples as well. We found our favorite apple of all time, but can't find anyone who grows it.

    Oh, and they have a bunch of different honeys to try as well.

    It's 2 months away....can't wait!!

    Like I said, one of the highlights of the summer season.
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For adelady. Have sent email off to Tasmania re your Site in you Poste where KY1 seeds may be available. Have asked for some update advice and have been added to their catalouge distribution. when I hear from the Site Distributer I'll pass on anything that you may find interesting. westwind.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    344
    As a matter of fact no tomato taste like my own. The tomatoes in my own backyard taste brilliant! Hot house tomatoes look like plastic ones. Really, if you are too lazy to grow them, at least buy organic tomatoes. Those pesticide ones may be cheaper, but they taste like ... you'll see what I mean after you compare them.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Professor pyoko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,095
    That's why I grow mine.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    at least buy organic tomatoes.
    Sorry to say this, but that is total bulldust.

    Many blind taste tests have been done. Conventionally grown tomatoes are exactly the same in flavour as organic, as long as three conditions are met:

    1. The tasters are blinded so they cannot tell which tomato they are tasting
    2. The organic and conventional tomatoes being tasted are at the same level of ripeness
    3. the same variety of tomato is being tasted.

    There is more bulldust on the internet than you can shake a stick at, including fraudulent taste tests. Fraudulent because those three conditions are not met.

    Penn and Teller ran a blinded taste test on tomatoes, in which they showed that conventional tomatoes are better. Penn & Teller: Bullshit - Organic Taste Test - YouTube However, they cheated. If you look closely at the tomatoes, you will see that the conventional ones are redder, therefore riper, therefore tastier.

    Many taste tests are purported to show the opposite, and they get that result the same way - by cheating.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For skeptic. I had tomatoes on wholemeal seeded toast this AM. Now, although I enjoy them from the stovetop, I generally drip Worcestershire sauce over them, and add a little black pepper. Please do not say that I am not a Purist. I am. But tomatoes and Worcestershire sauce have sustained me for over 60 years. Especially the cheap Italian caned whole peeled tomatoes. I empty the canned tomatoes into a slightly larger container, add 3 tablespoons of Worcestershire sauce, a little white pepper, and, using a small spoon, lean on the sink, and surratishely slurp the juice up. I have to be a little sly here, because my wife hovers around trying to catch me. I certainly recommend all young members to get stuck into this and you will grow up to be like westwind. westwind.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Westwind

    Very best wishes for you, and your tomatoes, and your sauce, and your seeded toast.

    Ultimately, when we talk about taste, it is what blows your own hair back as an individual, that counts.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    I buy what they call English tomatoes at supermarkets that usually haven't ripened all the way yet. I love those when they are still pinkish, as opposed to full red, and use tomatoes in almost everything. I am actually mildly allergic to a certain protein in some uncooked fruits, nuts and vegetables and don't get a reaction from those. I do get one sometimes from those very red, elongated Italian (claimed) tomatoes though.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Many blind taste tests have been done. Conventionally grown tomatoes are exactly the same in flavour as organic, as long as three conditions are met:

    1. The tasters are blinded so they cannot tell which tomato they are tasting
    2. The organic and conventional tomatoes being tasted are at the same level of ripeness
    3. the same variety of tomato is being tasted.
    This misses the point of the discovery - by a researcher named Ann Powell, who was investigating why some heirloom tomatoes were so green before ripening - that the same single mutation that allowed commercial growers to plant whole fields of tomatoes that turned uniformly red at the same time, making industrial farming of tomatoes much more profitable, reduced the chloroplast density and activity in the skin of the fruit.

    The result was a tomato with a third less sugars and significantly less in the way of caretenoids and other flavorful chemicals manufactured by these chloroplasts. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/sc...cists-say.html

    The connection with organic growing is that uneven ripening and non-uniform red color are only tolerated by non-industrial growers, and the most significant faction of these in the markets are the organic growers. So the organic folks are the ones who have preserved some of the original varieties, and grow them, making it possible to taste what tomatoes used to taste like before industrial ag took over the markets - and also, possibly, breed a tomato that both tastes good and ripens uniformly red (separate sections and features of the gene involved).

    Demanding, in a taste test comparing organic with industrial fruit, that the varieties of the tomato be the same and of the same ripeness, will prevent one from demonstrating the flavor superiority of organic tomatoes, part of which is based on precisely the fact that industrial growers all, by necessity, grow varieties with this one genetic characteristic that affects ripening.

    The higher concentration of sugars and caretenoids and so forth, btw, is not subjective, and affects nutrition as well as flavor. There may be people who prefer a tomato with less sugar and less of the flavorful nutritious caretenoids and so forth, but a reasonable person would adopt as a presumption that such people would be in a small minority.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Iceaura

    Different strains of tomato will taste different. That is one reason we call them different.

    Whether we consider the taste to be superior or inferior is all together individual. It is like wine. I love a good Australian shiraz, which is a full bodied and dry red wine. Other people prefer sweeter wines. No one is superior. It is just personal taste.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    "Since about 10% of the sugars in an old-fashioned tomato are produced by photosynthesis in the fruit itself, rather than being transported in from elsewhere, and since making those sugars also results in other flavoursome molecules derived from them, Dr Powell thinks she has found the explanation for cardboard tomatoes."


    So if I block photosynthesis - by keeping the tomato fruit in shadow - this would have the same effect? Then what if I ensure the fruit's aglow with sunlight? Are smaller tomatoes better penetrated by sunlight?

    How about storebought tomatoes I don't use for some days? Better keep them in a sunny location?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    I think the study is largely BS.

    According to the article, all modern varieties of tomatoes, except the heirloom varieties, have the altered gene. This should mean that even home grown tomatoes that are not heirloom varieties should taste like "cardboard." Anyone who has grown tomatoes in the garden realizes that is not true. They need to look elsewhere for the reason for cardboard. I think the main culprit is gas reddening of tomatoes that were picked green.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    that were picked green.
    I think you're right. Entirely green.

    If you want full flavoured tomatoes but you want to avoid insect, sun, wind, hail or storage/transport damage, you pick them as soon as they show some non-green colour. So long as you never let them near a refrigerator, they will ripen fully in their own good time to full flavour. But only if they were already showing colour.

    Supermarket tomatoes are picked when a person (or a machine) determines that a whole row, greenhouse, area is showing signs that they will soon ripen or that they've reached marketable size. So the whole lot is picked despite the fact that very few are yet showing colour. The gigantic chiller truck is filled and off they go. To cold storage for a few days. Then they're gassed to initiate reddening - which does not indicate natural development to ripeness.

    No surprise they don't taste like much considering what happens to them.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    [QUOTE=adelady;336753]
    If you want full flavoured tomatoes but you want to avoid insect, sun, wind, hail or storage/transport damage, you pick them as soon as they show some non-green colour. So long as you never let them near a refrigerator, they will ripen fully in their own good time to full flavour. But only if they were already showing colour.
    Right. I used to work on a vegetable farm as a summer job when I was in school. We picked the tomatoes whether they were red or just had some pink on them. Otherwise we would have had to pick the same patch every day, instead of every few days. They'd wash and sort the tomatoes and let the green ones sit around a while to ripen before selling them.

    I could never tell the difference between a tomato picked red and one left to ripen. I'd snitch one every day to put on my sandwich at lunch time, and it didn't matter.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Different strains of tomato will taste different. That is one reason we call them different.

    Whether we consider the taste to be superior or inferior is all together individual.
    I predict that the individuals who consistently prefer the taste of tomato varieties with much less of the tomato's various sugars and flavenoids and carotenoids and other chemicals -

    chemicals that apparently evolved (as in the thousands of similar fruit-ripening setups natural to the world) specifically to make the tomato attractive to a forager that can see the color red, eat a whole (probably small, in the wild) tomato, and not over-digest the seeds (tomato seeds are famous for surviving the digestive tracts of the mammals that eat them), -

    will be found to be a small minority. If the matter is ever investigated - who would bother?

    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    I think the study is largely BS.
    ? You think they were wrong about their measurements of sugars and other chemicals? What's your problem with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    According to the article, all modern varieties of tomatoes, except the heirloom varieties, have the altered gene. This should mean that even home grown tomatoes that are not heirloom varieties should taste like "cardboard." Anyone who has grown tomatoes in the garden realizes that is not true. They need to look elsewhere for the reason for cardboard
    The study did not even hint that there was no advantage in flavor to home grown tomatoes, of any kind.

    Much better flavor from non-industrial gardening of any tomato variety is completely consistent with the study.

    Quote Originally Posted by adelady
    I could never tell the difference between a tomato picked red and one left to ripen. I'd snitch one every day to put on my sandwich at lunch time, and it didn't matter.
    That matches a key speculation of the study's motivator - that a large fraction of the ripening tomato's improving flavor is from the fruit's skin, rather than from the leaves and roots. That significant dependence on the activity of chloroplasts in the skin of the fruit pointed to the role of the "uniform ripening" mutation, which primarily affected the fruit rather than the leaves or roots.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    I think the study is largely BS.
    ? You think they were wrong about their measurements of sugars and other chemicals? What's your problem with it?
    The BS part was where they say the difference in sugar levels etc. explains cardboard tasting tomatoes. If this is a reason for cardboard tasting tomatoes it is a very trivial one, as proven by the fact that excellent tasting tomatoes can be grown from the same varieties commercially grown.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Whichever tomatoes you've got, the study indicates that sugars and "other flavoursome molecules" increase with greater exposure to sunlight, on the fruit itself. That's knowledge gardeners and consumers may put to use. I'm growing tomatoes now, and will try repositioning some leaf-shaded fruits into full sunlight.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    increase with greater exposure to sunlight, on the fruit itself.
    That used to be the market garden and home garden recommendation here until not so long ago. Nowadays, it really depends on latitude - and none of Australia is in the "expose to sun for better result" territory.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Whichever tomatoes you've got, the study indicates that sugars and "other flavoursome molecules" increase with greater exposure to sunlight, on the fruit itself. That's knowledge gardeners and consumers may put to use. I'm growing tomatoes now, and will try repositioning some leaf-shaded fruits into full sunlight.
    I don't think this is a good idea. Tomatoes exposed to direct sun get sunburned. They turn pale and get hard and pulpy where the sun hits them.
    http://urbanext.illinois.edu/vegprob...d_sunburn.html
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Well, mine are growing in Vancouver, Canada, where we only cover tomatoes against rain-splashed blight. July 11th and the flowers are just now setting fruit. The issue here is not too much sunlight.

    I'm going to tag the fruiting branches, listing fruits in order along each branch. Then periodically record sunlight exposure for each fruit: 0%, <50%, >50%, 100%. Yeah I know my data will be crap.
    KALSTER likes this.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Remember you only need that exposure to get the fruit to begin to ripen. Once it's showing colour, pick it or shield it.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    A normal Vancouver summer doesn't appear to damage ripe tomatoes. It's the cool dampness that ruins them. Sorry this is useless information to most of the world.

    Anyway the purpose of my informal study is to find if maximum sunlight on the fruit itself yields the most sweetness and flavour.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    My crop is off to a tough start...well it's OK because I'm dumping hundreds of gallons a week on my tiny garden. Last month natural rainfall 0.10" (2.5 mm), average high ~93 F/ 34C. That's the lowest rainfall of any 30 days in the last 11 years.
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    As I have said before, if you want store bought tomatoes to taste good, you set them aside in a bowl for a week, or however long it takes for them to go bright red. Then they will be delicious. It does not matter about the sun. On a bench in your kitchen is fine.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Skeptic, the above study found that flavour is developed partially by photosynthesis in the tomato itself. So yes it does matter about the sun. On what grounds are you refuting this?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Pong. You're right, but you only need to initiate the chemical process.

    Once a tomato starts to colour up, all you have to wait for is the process to go to its inevitable conclusion. No more sunlight needed.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    My crop is off to a tough start...well it's OK because I'm dumping hundreds of gallons a week on my tiny garden. Last month natural rainfall 0.10" (2.5 mm), average high ~93 F/ 34C. That's the lowest rainfall of any 30 days in the last 11 years.
    same here Wayne, hot and dry
    twice this summer, I had to dig graves for dead chickens(the 5 year old ones), and 2 feet down, still bone dry---no worms near the surface, so the hoses are being well used.
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    The BS part was where they say the difference in sugar levels etc. explains cardboard tasting tomatoes. If this is a reason for cardboard tasting tomatoes it is a very trivial one, as proven by the fact that excellent tasting tomatoes can be grown from the same varieties commercially grown.
    Are you claiming that 10 - 30% less sugar, carotenoids, and flavenoids, is likely to be a very trivial factor in the flavor of a tomato?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    The BS part was where they say the difference in sugar levels etc. explains cardboard tasting tomatoes. If this is a reason for cardboard tasting tomatoes it is a very trivial one, as proven by the fact that excellent tasting tomatoes can be grown from the same varieties commercially grown.
    Are you claiming that 10 - 30% less sugar, carotenoids, and flavenoids, is likely to be a very trivial factor in the flavor of a tomato?
    The proof would be in the eating, wouldn't it? I haven't tried the heirloom tomatoes, but I think I know the difference between "cardboard" and "delicious." I have gotten the tasteless, or cardboard tasting, tomatoes from the supermarket. They are horrible. I have also eaten uniformly red tomatoes grown from modern varieties. They are delicious.

    That article in the link you posted claims that modern, uniformly red, tomato varieties are the reason for cardboard tasting supermarket tomatoes. That's BS.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    The proof would be in the eating, wouldn't it? I haven't tried the heirloom tomatoes, but I think I know the difference between "cardboard" and "delicious."
    And I think you would probably be able to tell the difference between tomatoe's with lots more sugar and carotenoids and flavenoids and so forth, and those with much less.

    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    That article in the link you posted claims that modern, uniformly red, tomato varieties are the reason for cardboard tasting supermarket tomatoes. That's BS.
    Here's your quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by harlod
    I think the study is largely BS.
    Now the first step is to separate the journalist's article from the researchers's study, and attribute the exaggerations, if any, to their proper source.

    The next step would be to compare the industrial knockout mutation tomatoes to the originals they derived from, to see what the differences in flavor are. It is possible that you would end up agreeing that your former estimation of "delicious" was underinformed, no?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Forum Professor Zwirko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    55° N, 3° W
    Posts
    1,085
    Although the paper itself is hidden behind a pay wall, the supplementary material can be accessed here: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/su...revision.1.pdf

    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaura
    The next step would be to compare the industrial knockout mutation tomatoes to the originals they derived from, to see what the differences in flavor are. It is possible that you would end up agreeing that your former estimation of "delicious" was underinformed, no
    First we have to establish how much of it is subjective. I am not convinced that more flavenoids and more sugar automatically equals better taste. Perhaps there is a right balance somewhere, or the ballance differs between varieties, etc. There seems to be a majority opinion about "cardboard" tomatoes, but where is the research that investigates the median for best tasting tomatoes?
    Last edited by KALSTER; July 13th, 2012 at 10:58 AM.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    It is possible that you would end up agreeing that your former estimation of "delicious" was underinformed, no?
    No, they were still delicious, though there might be other varieties that are more delicious, that I haven't tried.

    The article says they didn't actually taste the dark green genetically modified tomatoes. If the heirloom tomatoes are so much better, I think a lot of home gardeners would grow them due to word of mouth recommendations. Most gardeners I know of grow hybrid tomatoes.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by kalster
    I am not convinced that more flavenoids and more sugar automatically equals better taste.
    More sugars of all the different kinds present, and more carotenoids (commonly thought of as major sources of nutritional benefit as well as taste), as well as more flavenoids.

    Of course it's possible that such a tomato would actually taste worse. How much money would you bet on that, at 5:1 odds against?


    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    No, they were still delicious, though there might be other varieties that are more delicious, that I haven't tried.
    No possibility that new information would alter your comparative scale of perception, eh.

    OK.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For MeteorWayne. The Tasting Festival is at hand. Are you still attending? If so, corner some tough looking old guy with dirt under his fingernails and a bad back, get his verdict on old varieties( not now selected for Supermarket inbreeding, read pseudo product), as against the modern retail version. This is the real deal Wayne. Also would like to know the best soil structure. westwind.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    That's the beauty of it. I don't have to ask anybody, I just tatste them all. (or asw many as I can in 3 hours)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaura
    The next step would be to compare the industrial knockout mutation tomatoes to the originals they derived from, to see what the differences in flavor are. It is possible that you would end up agreeing that your former estimation of "delicious" was underinformed, no
    First we have to establish how much of it is subjective. I am not convinced that more flavenoids and more sugar automatically equals better taste. Perhaps there is a right balance somewhere, or the ballance differs between varieties, etc. There seems to be a majority opinion about "cardboard" tomatoes, but where is the research that investigates the median for best tasting tomatoes?
    there is an old saying "there is no accounting for taste" which is literally and figuratively true. Taste is a matter of qualitative rather than quantitative judgement.
    Even when I plant hybrids(I usually plant 3-6 different varieties some from old friends some from the store) vine ripened is how I eat them, and they are far better than the supermarket stuff, which, I suspect is/are picked a tad early, then gassed to bring out the red. (just a guess) and they are just ripening now, there is nothing unpleasant about wandering down the rows of the garden with a salt shaker, picking and eating as I go, and saving the best to offer as a gift to my significant other. (who does the same for me)
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  55. #54  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For MeteorWayne. Well? westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
    Reply With Quote  
     

  56. #55  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    there is an old saying "there is no accounting for taste" which is literally and figuratively true. Taste is a matter of qualitative rather than quantitative judgement.
    This means less than it attempts: as the food science pros that brought you most of what you see in a supermarket have demonstrated by putting millions on the line and winning, taste is predictable by quantitative analysis over a very wide range of quantities within a given foodstuff.

    They can tell you, for example, by quantitative analysis, which of a given bag of visually identical tomatoes was well fertilized, vine ripened, and brought to table within hours of harvest; as opposed to poorly fertliized, gas ripened, and stored for a few weeks before being served. And this evaluation will be reflected in the preferences of the vast majority of people's perception of how they taste.

    The same goes for sweet corn, beans and peas, etc - the sugars begin converting to starches immediately upon harvest, quantitatively, and almost everyone prefers the quickly eaten over the long term stored.

    There is accounting for the taste of food. People vary, but these variations (such as among those who do and do not taste aspartame as bitter) are predictable quantitatively and statistically and by "accounting". There are no human cultures on earth who given opportunity do not oversalt their food in general, prefer less sweet to sweeter in all but the very highest ranges of sweetness, abhor caramelization in general, and so forth.

    We have a single genetic knockout mutation of a gene found active in almost all tomatoes prior to that mutation, that reduces sugars - glucose and fructose predominantly - by a almost a third. carotenoids and flavenoids by similar fractions. From an evolutionary perspective, why do you think tomatoes had that gene in the first place? And reasoning from that, where would place your bets on flavor preference among primates in general (who can see red and are famous for not killing tomato seeds during digestion) and humans in particular?
    Last edited by iceaura; July 21st, 2012 at 07:02 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  57. #56  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Taste preferences to a very large extent are learned.

    For example : I prefer dry wines to sweet. I drink tea and coffee unsweetened, and find those drinks with sugar added quite nauseous. These are learned preferences. Such learned preferences are universal. My wife like bananas almost green. She cannot stand the sweetness of riper bananas. All of us have specific learned preferences, and tomatoes are no different.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  58. #57  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Taste preferences to a very large extent are learned.

    For example : I prefer dry wines to sweet. I drink tea and coffee unsweetened, and find those drinks with sugar added quite nauseous. These are learned preferences. Such learned preferences are universal. My wife like bananas almost green. She cannot stand the sweetness of riper bananas. All of us have specific learned preferences, and tomatoes are no different.
    So the tomato was simply wasting its resources supplying its fruit with all those extra sugars and carotenoids and flavenoids (nutirition, btw, not just flavor). The genetics didn't evolve under selection, but just happened. Primates such as people vary randomly in whether or not they prefer such fruit.

    And you would bet a thousand dollars of your own money on that.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  59. #58  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    I'm not so sure iceaura. And, having been a Gambler, I wouldn't put your money on that. It's true that I don't see Members of the Chimpanzee Family of Primates munching on deliciously flavoured Tomatoes.. But lets hold our judgement until MeteorWayne reports on the Tomatoe Tasting Event he, hopefully was able to attend.....westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
    Reply With Quote  
     

  60. #59  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    The original tomato was different to the modern one, and was different to those we call 'heirloom' varieties. It came from roughly the Peru region, and was cultivated by Aztecs. However, the Aztecs had doubtless bred it also. The wild tomato was a small fruit, probably yellow in colour.

    I do not know which animals ate it and spread its seeds. Certainly not chimps. If primates, it would have been New World monkeys. The degree of sweetness, and colour, and flavour would have evolved to attract the seed spreaders, whatever they were. That does not mean characteristics favourable to humans. In fact, the breeding done by the Aztecs, and later by Europeans, would have been directed to traits we find attractive.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  61. #60  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    I've lately gathered from (Vancouver) tomato growers that flavour by "photosynthesis in the tomato itself" is common knowledge - to this end some gardeners prune to better expose fruits to sunlight. I'll continue my experiment with unpruned plants.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  62. #61  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    The degree of sweetness, and colour, and flavour would have evolved to attract the seed spreaders, whatever they were. That does not mean characteristics favourable to humans.
    We know for sure they attracted humans, who found them favorable enough to domesticate.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    In fact, the breeding done by the Aztecs, and later by Europeans, would have been directed to traits we find attractive.
    Such as sugars and carotenoids and flavenoids and so forth - and maybe even a red color, because primates such as humans see the color red.

    We know why the mutated, disabled gene was selected 70 years ago: it was better suited to industrial agriculture and marketing.

    btw: what's with the chimps, you and westwind? Nobody else has mentioned chimps.

    bbtw: I found that article that's been nagging my memory whenever I read the words "heirloom tomato": How to Grow a Better Tomato: The Case against Heirloom Tomatoes: Scientific American
    Reply With Quote  
     

  63. #62  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Thanks for that reference, Iceaura. Interesting.

    As I have told you before, I have experimented with heirloom tomatoes in my own garden. Not far from where I live is an alternative lifestyle group, who believe in organic gardening, and they have set out to preserve heirloom varieties. They sell seeds. I bought seeds from them and grew them.
    Shop | Koanga Institute

    My results did not bear out the claims made for heirloom tomatoes. The yield was low, and the tomatoes were no tastier than the others I grew alongside them - modern hybrids.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  64. #63  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    My results did not bear out the claims made for heirloom tomatoes.
    There are no claims made for "heirloom tomatoes", in general. Tomatoes have been bred for all kinds of reasons, from color to pest resistance, and respond to different soil etc accordingly.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  65. #64  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For iceaura. Chimpanzees have the same taste buds as humans. Let the Chimp decide what tomatoes taste the best. Three buckets of tomatoes. Two from Supermarkets, different varieties. One bucket from Organic Farm. All fully ripe. ( same redness and size) Put Organic Tomatoes a little apart from the Supermarket ones. Watch Observe. Well, what happened? westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
    Reply With Quote  
     

  66. #65  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    There are no claims made for "heirloom tomatoes",
    I was talking of the claim the OP is based on - better tasting. They were not.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  67. #66  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    Quote Originally Posted by westwind View Post
    For iceaura. Chimpanzees have the same taste buds as humans.
    Don't suppose you can support that statement with some actual science...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  68. #67  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For MeteorWayne. You give me no credit MeteorWayne for watching my back. Or do you like poking a stick at a sleeping possum? And I'm still waiting for a report from the tomato tasting. I'm informed as to the weather you have been experiencing in upper New Jersey. Could be that it's been too hot to set flowers to fruit on your tomato plants? I come from a long line of Chimpanzees. I am what you might call an albino Chimp. Lst time I was with my mob they told me that Google had been around running tests on their Tasting Senses. Bugger me, you are just like Humans they said....westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
    Reply With Quote  
     

  69. #68  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    The tomato tasting is 5 weeks away.

    I have a dozen or so plum tomatoes under way, started my watering just in time. Have had some natural rain this week (0.75", or 19mm) and temps have dropped back to 32C or so.

    So the answer to my question is no then.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  70. #69  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    I was talking of the claim the OP is based on - better tasting.
    The OP makes no such claim, about "heirloom tomatoes" in general.

    It is "based on" the discovery that most modern and all industrial tomatoes include a genetic mutation that significantly reduces the concentrations of sugars, carotenoids, flavenoids, and other chloroplast produced substances in the ripe fruit, all else being equal.

    What that means is that a "taste test" such as you described doesn't tell us anything.
    Last edited by iceaura; July 23rd, 2012 at 12:34 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  71. #70  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    I was talking of the claim the OP is based on - better tasting.
    The OP makes no such claim, about "heirloom tomatoes" in general.

    It is "based on" the discovery that most modern and all industrial tomatoes include a genetic mutation that significantly reduces the concentrations of sugars, carotenoids, flavenoids, and other chloroplast produced substances in the ripe fruit, all else being equal.

    What that means is that a "taste test" such as you described doesn't tell us anything.
    The claim was made that the uniform color gene was discovered by plant breeders about 70 years ago. So, if the heirloom tomato variety is more than 70 years old, then it absolutely does tell us something.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  72. #71  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    The claim was made that the uniform color gene was discovered by plant breeders about 70 years ago. So, if the heirloom tomato variety is more than 70 years old, then it absolutely does tell us something.
    That depends on why, how, and where the heirloom variety was bred in the first place and grown in the second, and likewise the variety used for comparison.

    Information we don't have.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  73. #72  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    That depends on why, how, and where the heirloom variety was bred in the first place and grown in the second, and likewise the variety used for comparison.

    Information we don't have.
    I think you are hedging. I suppose it's possible that within the last 70 years, somebody saved some seeds from some insipid tasting, but red, tomatoes, then lovingly nurtured the plants, saving the seeds to pass on to future generations, and called them "heirloom." But what's the chance of that happening? More likely, the taste does depend more on growing conditions than the flavor-killing "cardboard" gene supposedly popularized by the commercial growers.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  74. #73  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    But what's the chance of that happening?
    Everybody used to save their own seeds. Especially for tomatoes and similar plants that don't promiscuously hybridise in the field the way some other vegetables do - pumpkins and melons are infamous for this.

    I save my own seeds sometimes. Anyone who doesn't grow hybrids can save their own tomato and capsicum seeds.

    The seed savers' exchange was started in the USA ages ago to 'save' traditional varieties that were being lost because of broadscale horticulture. Seed Savers Exchange
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  75. #74  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    I think you are hedging. I suppose it's possible that within the last 70 years, somebody saved some seeds from some insipid tasting, but red, tomatoes, then lovingly nurtured the plants, saving the seeds to pass on to future generations, and called them "heirloom." But what's the chance of that happening?
    In the first place, that's beside the point - Skeptic's taste test is not informative, regardless.

    In the second, the odds are essentially 100% that many heirloom varieties of tomato were originally bred for storage life, insect resistance, productivity, suitability for canning or sauce or cooking, size or growth habits of plant, growing season, drought or heat or cold tolerance, unique coloration or smell, sentimental association with a person or place, even flowering or foliage aspects, all kinds of reasons rather than best flavor of fresh fruit.

    The point is not, has never been, that all heirloom tomatoes taste great. That's not the discovery, or the implication.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  76. #75  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,843
    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    Skeptic's taste test is not informative, regardless.
    I agree, but probably for a different reason. Taste is individual and personal. I found the heirloom tomatoes less tasty than the modern hybrids, but someone else may have a different reaction.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  77. #76  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    But what's the chance of that happening?
    Everybody used to save their own seeds. Especially for tomatoes and similar plants that don't promiscuously hybridise in the field the way some other vegetables do - pumpkins and melons are infamous for this.

    I save my own seeds sometimes. Anyone who doesn't grow hybrids can save their own tomato and capsicum seeds.

    The seed savers' exchange was started in the USA ages ago to 'save' traditional varieties that were being lost because of broadscale horticulture. Seed Savers Exchange
    Do you save the ones that taste like cardboard?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  78. #77  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Do you save the ones that taste like cardboard?
    No point.

    a) I don't like them so I don't want them.

    b) They're hybrids. So even if I wanted them for some reason, I'd have to buy the seeds or seedlings from the breeder. I couldn't be sure what I'd get from saving the seeds myself.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  79. #78  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,907
    There is a problem with supermarket fruits and vegetables of all kinds IMO. They look for things like shape, size, uniformity, and other things like desease resistence and shelf life presumably when deciding on which types to sell.
    Lots get wasted as they don't meet the super markets asthetical requirements, and we all end up with a less nuroushing and tasteless fruit.
    also producers don't get as much money as a lot of the crop is insuficient.

    I'm clearly not an expert on the subject but i'd love to see the consumers unify on issues like this and do our talking with our spending habits.

    Most fruit/veg is produced using the science of plant growing... but instead of taste and health benefits, we'r getting appearance benefits at the expense of other qualities.

    But another key factor determining the taste of a tomato is how it's grown... organic soil, the right feeds etc.

    I don't know if you're talking about home grown toms from seed or shop brought... I'd love to grow all my own veg but I just don't have the space.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  80. #79  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,907
    I notice you're speaking about hybrids Adelady... How many varieties of tomatoe could you get that haven't been hybridised? Most seeds are hybrids these days aren't they?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  81. #80  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    Hi adelady. Back to my favourite Thread. Well, your Thread adelady if the truths known. Its a long way to the top of the page. Hybrids? Isn't similar to human re-production?-- not too far away from the ancestor fruit? So you get what you get--there;s a mystery there. It'll probably be a tomato, and with any luck, prolific, and good tasting, and even look like an old fashion tomato. ( all this from kept seed } Now adelady, I've been sweating on MeteotWayne for his Tomato Tasting excursion to the South NEW jERSY FAIR--CLAM BAKE OR whatever. Come on MeteorWayne, out with it--you have stalled long enough. We need to know down under here, our fingers itching to get seeds in the HotHouse. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
    Reply With Quote  
     

  82. #81  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Most seeds are hybrids these days aren't they?
    The ones in the garden and hardware shops, probably. But I only buy from direct sellers of heritage, open pollinated plants (though that doesn't matter a great deal for tomatoes).

    Heritage seeds are stable - you can collect your own seed from your fruit and get exactly what you had last year. Not possible with all those commercial F1 hybrids - F1 means first generation - which means any seeds are more likely to develop as the parents rather than the plant/fruit you had. Heritage varieties may have started out as naturally occurring hybrids - but by far the great majority are the result of selection for preferred characteristics. Early fruiting, late fruiting, single harvest, prolonged harvest, growth habit, pest or disease resistance, drought resistance, frost resistance, fungal resistance - and then there are preferred fruit characteristics as well.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  83. #82  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,907
    ah huh.. i've don't some gardening professionally so I know about F1's... I beleive they need to be inbred for 7 generations befor they are classed as a new variety.

    So how do you get along with purely heritage seeds? good crops? no problems? It's gotta be the way forward, I will remember that next time i get some seeds.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  84. #83  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Good crops so long as you treat them right.

    (My husband and I argued for years about watering the confounded things. It was only when he read something (not from me) that he finally acknowledged that, in our very dry climate, they needed a lot more water, mulch and TLC than he was previously handing out. He'd grown up raising tomatoes in commercial greenhouses which is a far different proposition from an open Adelaide garden.)

    Part of the fun of growing them is the huge range of colours, sizes and uses. Black Russians, Green Zebras, pink, yellow, orange, purple, white - or stripey Tigerellas. I've decided it's a much better bargain to bottle whatever you have whenever you have it rather than grow San Marzano or the like specifically for sauce/bottling. It all finishes up much the same anyway - I'm not trying to sell the stuff to fussy people who wouldn't know a good tomato if it bit them, am I.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  85. #84  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,907
    I wouldn't be suprised if you have a whole load of varieties that don't grow in the climate in my part of the world... I still remeber when I took a weekend off from the vegetable garden and left orders with the bosses son to open the poly tunnle up! came back on monday to a load of black tomato plants! The boss tried to suggest it was my fault! a kid needs a weekend of at least once per summer!

    Have you got water butts on your down pipe?
    This might be obvious to you but you can improve efficiency by something like 40% (or more in adelaide) by watering in the evening.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  86. #85  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    "Watering in the evening"

    Clearly you don't live in Adelaide. We're not allowed to water during the day. When the highest level water restrictions kick in - we haven't needed the strongest ones lately - we're only allowed a few hours per week, those hours are before 9am and after 5pm (I think) and only odd or even numbered houses are allowed to water on certain days.

    We don't have water 'butts'. We have tanks. You have to remember this is a place where the average number of days with any rainfall at all is less than 5 - for January and February combined. When the the weather's hot and dry and water restrictions are in place, you can't grow vegetables at all unless you have stored your winter/spring rainfall in several-thousand-litre tanks.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  87. #86  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,907
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    "Watering in the evening"

    Clearly you don't live in Adelaide. We're not allowed to water during the day. When the highest level water restrictions kick in - we haven't needed the strongest ones lately - we're only allowed a few hours per week, those hours are before 9am and after 5pm (I think) and only odd or even numbered houses are allowed to water on certain days.

    We don't have water 'butts'. We have tanks. You have to remember this is a place where the average number of days with any rainfall at all is less than 5 - for January and February combined. When the the weather's hot and dry and water restrictions are in place, you can't grow vegetables at all unless you have stored your winter/spring rainfall in several-thousand-litre tanks.
    Puts our recent hosepipe ban in parts of the u.k into perspective!

    So when you having your next BBQ and international sleep over party? I'll bring a few bottles...(of water!)
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  88. #87  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,079
    For question for you. I'llnot cramp your style if you turn up fot the international sleepover, the bottled water you bring will be fine for the tomatoes, Just don't offer it to adelady for drinking purposes. westwind.
    question for you likes this.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
    Reply With Quote  
     

  89. #88  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,222
    Drinking water? Our tap water is fine nowadays. But I grew up in the era when Adelaide's water supply was reputed to be among the worst in the world. It was certainly hard enough that soap manufacturers didn't bother to advertise much. We had to use 2 or 3 times as much as anywhere else in Australia to get any suds at all. There's more than one reason why rainwater tanks are more common in Adelaide than other capital cities.

    I never found out if it was true, it was probably a joke that became an urban legend, but my mum told me that there were only two ports where ships refused to take on water - Aden and Adelaide.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  90. #89  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,907
    Struth sheila!

    You've gone an made me look up adelaide now like some kind flammin galah!

    looks preddy bonza too!
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. taste without smell
    By gib65 in forum Biology
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: May 5th, 2012, 01:00 AM
  2. Cosmologists Taste the Forbidden Fruit
    By mastmec in forum Pseudoscience
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: December 16th, 2008, 06:59 PM
  3. taste of NaCl
    By AlexP in forum Biology
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: February 21st, 2007, 01:23 PM
  4. taste preferences
    By AlexP in forum Biology
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: December 31st, 2006, 05:27 PM
  5. Replies: 4
    Last Post: July 17th, 2006, 05:09 AM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •